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Scivation Psycho

Patuba

Member
I see Scivation has a new per workout called Psycho. I see it has Dendrobium in it. Is it the same "Dendrobium" that is in Craze that is really an amphetamine?
 
nope its not the Dendrobium that gives craze its effects. this will not be as strong as craze. but ive ordered a tub to try it out still
 
That is good news. I was afraid that other supplement manufacturers were going to start selling the DS version of "Dendrobium". The supplement industry doesn't need more bad publicity after the Craze/Amphetamine USA Today and ESPN articles.
 
Patuba said:
That is good news. I was afraid that other supplement manufacturers were going to start selling the DS version of "Dendrobium". The supplement industry doesn't need more bad publicity after the Craze/Amphetamine USA Today and ESPN articles.
Click to expand...

Yeah. Any products besides craze and gaspari detonate that contain dendrobium are not laced with eth. Now the efficacy of real dendrobium is questionable. Mike sent me a bottle of primaforce dendrobium and I have only used it once. Didn't really notice anything but I am gonna try it out again today. So as long as you stay away from detonate and craze you're good :)
 
So what is the purpose of dendobrium in these products?

The purported effects from craze is apparently not from dendobrium so what is the purpose of adding it?
 
I thought dendobrium was discredited by PA as being as any use in a supplement.

Maybe Scivation is putting it in the product hoping people will think it's similar to Craze and will buy it?
 
I don't believe dendrobium contains any PEA. Usually in formulas that contain dendrobium you will also see contain another stimulant which is what's actually giving you the energy. The dendrobium ingredient is there for vanity and to give uninformed customers the idea that the product will give you similar energy to craze.

In this case you will also see caffeine and higenamine included in Psycho
 
Clemenza said:
I don't believe dendrobium contains any PEA. Usually in formulas that contain dendrobium you will also see contain another stimulant which is what's actually giving you the energy. The dendrobium ingredient is there for vanity and to give uninformed customers the idea that the product will give you similar energy to craze.

In this case you will also see caffeine and higenamine included in Psycho
Click to expand...

So it's label dressing.

Poor effort from Sci Vation n all if this is the case.

Instead of being innovative they just pull the piss.
 
Iain1668 said:
So it's label dressing.

Poor effort from Sci Vation n all if this is the case.

Instead of being innovative they just pull the piss.
Click to expand...

Not to be defensive to Scivation, but its the Vitamin C, B, caffeine, beta alanine, creatine mono, niacin, calcium & L-taurine that drives the performance behind this supplement - not some superficial, untested and unproven extract that everyone seems to fall for these days. If you want that then just go to your local pharmacy and purchase some Ephedrine behind-the-counter. All the stimulant you could ever ask for in that stuff, especially when combined with BA and caffeine.

Heck, in my own concoctions, the best pre-workout I've ever had was caffeine, creatine, BCAA's, beta-alanine, Vitamin C & E & MCT oil. You just can't beat that combo for real world performance in the gym. Most of these are found in Psycho so I am certain it will do something on the order of increasing performance. Either you guys are totally focused on the superficial benefits of pre-workouts and just dont care about anything else OR you just might be ignorant that the staple supplements and vitamins (which many can be found in food), are the key to pre-workout success.

I appreciate Scivation's attempt to actually offer something that actually does something good for muscular performance rather than throwing in a bunch of unknown, untested herbs and extracts and calling them the next holy grail of bodybuilding.

Just remember that in order to be truly classified as "supplement", it needs to be something that your body already receives from food and can use daily, especially in training. Stuff coming from an African root extract is NOT what I'd call a supplement and therefore should not be treated as such. You just don't need it to do well. If you rely on stims to workout, then I'd advise you look at your diet and lifestyle first before diving at the next big stim pre-workout.
 
Vitamin C, Vitamin B, beta alanine, monohydrate, niacin, and calcium do not boost performance acutely. Caffeine does...ok. Taurine does too. Niacin has actually been shown to reduce performance. So I'm not sure how much I agree with the above assertion. Sure, caffeine makes for great workouts, but that shouldn't be what defines psycho.
 
You guys ought to research beyond AM more often. There is plenty of data supporting niacin as well as ALL of these mentioned in muscular performance.

Creatine DOES and has MILES of data to prove it increases performance dramatically. I don't have time to argue with people that can't learn the most basic facts about how vitamin C, beta alanine & creatine monohydrate play key roles in endurance and recovery. The anecdotal evidence confidently supports what the biology says on paper, too.

You ever heard of the phosphagen system or phosphagen pathway? If you don't even know what that is, then you really have no place to say that these things dont work to increase performance "acutely". There are mountains of data supporting how Vitamin C contributes to reducing oxidative stress (which is onset by weight lifting) and increases recovery, how Vitamin B contributes to energy and alertness, creatine for its benefits to fueling the phosphagen system (which reproduces ATP from ADP when glucose and amino acids are depleted), and how beta alanine exaggerates the use of creatine mono and calcium plays critical roles in muscle contractions.

Niacin - "Your body converts niacin into a compound called nicotinamide, which is then modified to form two compounds, called NAD and NADP. Your cells and tissues use more than 200 enzymes to convert nutrients into energy, and most of these enzymes require NAD or NADP to function. As a result, niacin has a central role in helping you obtain energy from the food you eat. Although it helps break down many food components to produce energy, niacin is especially important in the conversion of carbohydrate-containing foods into glucose."

And in case you are one of those scientific skeptics that is too prideful to take information from anywhere but "scientific" citations:

You can find more here - Invalid Link Removed

That's from the University of Maryland - A place full of science and liberals alike - which is a great way to describe the typical AM member profile. Enjoy.

Granted, I will give you the benefit of the doubt with creatine & vitamin C. You actually have to train hard in the gym, taking multiple sets to failure, to actually reap any real benefits of either. The heart must be taxed, the muscles must be pumped and on fire, and in general you need to be really pushing yourself beyond the aerobic and anaerobic pathways to even need the creatine-phosphate system to actually do anything for you.

A sissy workout wont ever touch the creatine system since it usually comes into heavy play once the anaerobic pathway in the cell is empty.
 
It actually looks pretty solid.

My only beef is the inclusion of Dendrobium which is solely a gimmick ingredient.
 
Thought ya'll might like this too:

Invalid Link Removed

There are conflicting studies with Vitamin C and E, but personally, it is one of the few supplements that I can consistently notice a difference in performance and stamina when I take them pre-workout.
 
fueledpassion said:
You guys ought to research beyond AM more often. There is plenty of data supporting niacin as well as ALL of these mentioned in muscular performance.

Creatine DOES and has MILES of data to prove it increases performance dramatically. I don't have time to argue with people that can't learn the most basic facts about how vitamin C, beta alanine & creatine monohydrate play key roles in endurance and recovery. The anecdotal evidence confidently supports what the biology says on paper, too.

You ever heard of the phosphagen system or phosphagen pathway? If you don't even know what that is, then you really have no place to say that these things dont work to increase performance "acutely". There are mountains of data supporting how Vitamin C contributes to reducing oxidative stress (which is onset by weight lifting) and increases recovery, how Vitamin B contributes to energy and alertness, creatine for its benefits to fueling the phosphagen system (which reproduces ATP from ADP when glucose and amino acids are depleted), and how beta alanine exaggerates the use of creatine mono and calcium plays critical roles in muscle contractions.

Niacin - "Your body converts niacin into a compound called nicotinamide, which is then modified to form two compounds, called NAD and NADP. Your cells and tissues use more than 200 enzymes to convert nutrients into energy, and most of these enzymes require NAD or NADP to function. As a result, niacin has a central role in helping you obtain energy from the food you eat. Although it helps break down many food components to produce energy, niacin is especially important in the conversion of carbohydrate-containing foods into glucose."

And in case you are one of those scientific skeptics that is too prideful to take information from anywhere but "scientific" citations:

You can find more here - Invalid Link Removed

That's from the University of Maryland - A place full of science and liberals alike - which is a great way to describe the typical AM member profile. Enjoy.

Granted, I will give you the benefit of the doubt with creatine & vitamin C. You actually have to train hard in the gym, taking multiple sets to failure, to actually reap any real benefits of either. The heart must be taxed, the muscles must be pumped and on fire, and in general you need to be really pushing yourself beyond the aerobic and anaerobic pathways to even need the creatine-phosphate system to actually do anything for you.

A sissy workout wont ever touch the creatine system since it usually comes into heavy play once the anaerobic pathway in the cell is empty.
Click to expand...

Are you saying that the cp system is sone kind of reserve energy? It is the bodies primary energy system, especially for explosive exercises like lifting weights.
 
slowprogress said:
Are you saying that the cp system is sone kind of reserve energy? It is the bodies primary energy system, especially for explosive exercises like lifting weights.
Click to expand...

Not a reserve, per say. I may have implied that but its not really. However, you can consider creatine mono supplementation a "reserve fuel" for the CP system.

The body actually uses all three simultaneously but during actual heavy lifting, anaerobic and CP pathways are the only means to energy. Since both of those are limited in storage, it is imperative that the muscle is fully saturated with creatine in order to bang out the most reps possible on every set. The anaerobic pathway is good for a few seconds of heavy lifting then the rest of the 30-40 seconds of lifting generally comes from the CP pathway where the creatine phosphate just continually takes all the left over ADP and converts it back to ATP.

You only produce about 2g of creatine phosphate per day through your own diet. If you train hard and heavy several times per week, it is likely that you could benefit from supplementing monohydrate @ 5-10g on workout days and 5g on rest days to keep muscle saturation high. I think creatine supplementation is good for taking your intensity and time under tension to a new level, which inevitably leads to muscle growth.
 
fueledpassion said:
Not a reserve, per say. I may have implied that but its not really. However, you can consider creatine mono supplementation a "reserve fuel" for the CP system.

The body actually uses all three simultaneously but during actual heavy lifting, anaerobic and CP pathways are the only means to energy. Since both of those are limited in storage, it is imperative that the muscle is fully saturated with creatine in order to bang out the most reps possible on every set. The anaerobic pathway is good for a few seconds of heavy lifting then the rest of the 30-40 seconds of lifting generally comes from the CP pathway where the creatine phosphate just continually takes all the left over ADP and converts it back to ATP.

You only produce about 2g of creatine phosphate per day through your own diet. If you train hard and heavy several times per week, it is likely that you could benefit from supplementing monohydrate @ 5-10g on workout days and 5g on rest days to keep muscle saturation high. I think creatine supplementation is good for taking your intensity and time under tension to a new level, which inevitably leads to muscle growth.
Click to expand...

Ok, was gonna say.. :) I like creatine, for those extra reps. I'm not sure how quickly after ingestion it becomes available as a fuel source though, been quite a while since I looked at the details. I think that might have been mr coopers point though, that some of the compounds mentioned don't immediately improve performance.
 
slowprogress said:
Ok, was gonna say.. :) I like creatine, for those extra reps. I'm not sure how quickly after ingestion it becomes available as a fuel source though, been quite a while since I looked at the details. I think that might have been mr coopers point though, that some of the compounds mentioned don't immediately improve performance.
Click to expand...

Well, I'd personally recommend taking all of those things with a small carbohydrate meal 60 minutes prior to training. It's just speculation on my part but I'd imagine insulin would help move those nutrients to the muscle.

BCAA's cause insulin release though so having it in the pre-workout might be enough.
 
fueledpassion said:
Not to be defensive to Scivation, but its the Vitamin C, B, caffeine, beta alanine, creatine mono, niacin, calcium & L-taurine that drives the performance behind this supplement - not some superficial, untested and unproven extract that everyone seems to fall for these days. If you want that then just go to your local pharmacy and purchase some Ephedrine behind-the-counter. All the stimulant you could ever ask for in that stuff, especially when combined with BA and caffeine.

Heck, in my own concoctions, the best pre-workout I've ever had was caffeine, creatine, BCAA's, beta-alanine, Vitamin C & E & MCT oil. You just can't beat that combo for real world performance in the gym. Most of these are found in Psycho so I am certain it will do something on the order of increasing performance. Either you guys are totally focused on the superficial benefits of pre-workouts and just dont care about anything else OR you just might be ignorant that the staple supplements and vitamins (which many can be found in food), are the key to pre-workout success.

I appreciate Scivation's attempt to actually offer something that actually does something good for muscular performance rather than throwing in a bunch of unknown, untested herbs and extracts and calling them the next holy grail of bodybuilding.

Just remember that in order to be truly classified as "supplement", it needs to be something that your body already receives from food and can use daily, especially in training. Stuff coming from an African root extract is NOT what I'd call a supplement and therefore should not be treated as such. You just don't need it to do well. If you rely on stims to workout, then I'd advise you look at your diet and lifestyle first before diving at the next big stim pre-workout.
Click to expand...

and you eat dendrobium cereal every morning?
 
USPlabsRep said:
it's tough to debate ignorance..
Click to expand...

I actually lost time of my life reading those posts...fueledpassion should make good use of the real scientific knowledge given here FOR FREE...unlike the millenia old bro science he has been using.

Fueledpassion, really listen to some of the reason and knowledge given in these forum X_X.
 
Celorza said:
I actually lost time of my life reading those posts...fueledpassion should make good use of the real scientific knowledge given here FOR FREE...unlike the millenia old bro science he has been using.

Fueledpassion, really listen to some of the reason and knowledge given in these forum X_X.
Click to expand...

What have I said that was millenia old bro science?

I simply made a statement that the majority of the items found in this pre-workout are useful things and that plant extracts in general are not going to offer that much anyways in regards to energy and metabolic performance. All of this was spurred on by people being critical of one, irrelevant component of this product and negating the vast majority of other good things found in the product.

You guys are a tough crowd for sure. I'm out.

Do your crap talkin and nevermind anything I said.
 
fueledpassion said:
What have I said that was millenia old bro science?

I simply made a statement that the majority of the items found in this pre-workout are useful things and that plant extracts in general are not going to offer that much anyways in regards to energy and metabolic performance. All of this was spurred on by people being critical of one, irrelevant component of this product and negating the vast majority of other good things found in the product.

You guys are a tough crowd for sure. I'm out.

Do your crap talkin and nevermind anything I said.
Click to expand...

Oh really? Where did caffeine come from before we decided to synthetically produce it?
 
fueledpassion said:
What have I said that was millenia old bro science?

I simply made a statement that the majority of the items found in this pre-workout are useful things and that plant extracts in general are not going to offer that much anyways in regards to energy and metabolic performance. All of this was spurred on by people being critical of one, irrelevant component of this product and negating the vast majority of other good things found in the product.

You guys are a tough crowd for sure. I'm out.

Do your crap talkin and nevermind anything I said.
Click to expand...

fueledpassion said:
Not a reserve, per say. I may have implied that but its not really. However, you can consider creatine mono supplementation a "reserve fuel" for the CP system.

The body actually uses all three simultaneously but during actual heavy lifting, anaerobic and CP pathways are the only means to energy. Since both of those are limited in storage, it is imperative that the muscle is fully saturated with creatine in order to bang out the most reps possible on every set. The anaerobic pathway is good for a few seconds of heavy lifting then the rest of the 30-40 seconds of lifting generally comes from the CP pathway where the creatine phosphate just continually takes all the left over ADP and converts it back to ATP.

You only produce about 2g of creatine phosphate per day through your own diet. If you train hard and heavy several times per week, it is likely that you could benefit from supplementing monohydrate @ 5-10g on workout days and 5g on rest days to keep muscle saturation high. I think creatine supplementation is good for taking your intensity and time under tension to a new level, which inevitably leads to muscle growth.
Click to expand...
No...just no...3-4g even at just 4 days a week will lead to saturation and keeping saturation.

fueledpassion said:
You guys ought to research beyond AM more often. There is plenty of data supporting niacin as well as ALL of these mentioned in muscular performance.

Creatine DOES and has MILES of data to prove it increases performance dramatically. I don't have time to argue with people that can't learn the most basic facts about how vitamin C, beta alanine & creatine monohydrate play key roles in endurance and recovery. The anecdotal evidence confidently supports what the biology says on paper, too.

You ever heard of the phosphagen system or phosphagen pathway? If you don't even know what that is, then you really have no place to say that these things dont work to increase performance "acutely". There are mountains of data supporting how Vitamin C contributes to reducing oxidative stress (which is onset by weight lifting) and increases recovery, how Vitamin B contributes to energy and alertness, creatine for its benefits to fueling the phosphagen system (which reproduces ATP from ADP when glucose and amino acids are depleted), and how beta alanine exaggerates the use of creatine mono and calcium plays critical roles in muscle contractions.

Niacin - "Your body converts niacin into a compound called nicotinamide, which is then modified to form two compounds, called NAD and NADP. Your cells and tissues use more than 200 enzymes to convert nutrients into energy, and most of these enzymes require NAD or NADP to function. As a result, niacin has a central role in helping you obtain energy from the food you eat. Although it helps break down many food components to produce energy, niacin is especially important in the conversion of carbohydrate-containing foods into glucose."

And in case you are one of those scientific skeptics that is too prideful to take information from anywhere but "scientific" citations:

You can find more here - Invalid Link Removed

That's from the University of Maryland - A place full of science and liberals alike - which is a great way to describe the typical AM member profile. Enjoy.

Granted, I will give you the benefit of the doubt with creatine & vitamin C. You actually have to train hard in the gym, taking multiple sets to failure, to actually reap any real benefits of either. The heart must be taxed, the muscles must be pumped and on fire, and in general you need to be really pushing yourself beyond the aerobic and anaerobic pathways to even need the creatine-phosphate system to actually do anything for you.

A sissy workout wont ever touch the creatine system since it usually comes into heavy play once the anaerobic pathway in the cell is empty.
Click to expand...

You don't need more Vitamin C beyond plasma saturation levels...unless you are a marathon runner or have immune system deficiencies. And as mentioned above...Niacin has data proving it to be counterproductive.

Last but not least...what xhrr said, and what Jacob also mentioned, do you really think it's just what "naturally" incurs in a diet what makes a supplement be a supplement?
 
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