Shoulder Injuries?
- Thread starter ScottyDoc
- Start date
ItsHectic
Registered User
Thanks guys. Well saw my physio again today, he pretty much wrapped things up and said I dont need a follow up unless something new comes along, he said it seems like inflammation of the bursa and he seemed pretty confident of it, he also did some strength tests and said my right(injured) shoulder is stronger than my left and the internal external rotation balance is quiet good. He also tested abduction strength and my right is a lot stronger than my left(this would be from barbell work). He said the pain should go away after 6 weeks total, it hasnt been that long yet. He is basing the diagnosis on that I dont get any pain while doing any exercises but after, and there is no loss of strength, there was no pain with abduction against resistance. I do trust what he says I guess I will find out in the next few weeks if it is the case.
ScottyDoc
Well-known member
In my office I absolutely do joint mobilizations, and yes, it would definitely help in conjunction with some deep tissue massage work, something else I have in my office a certified deep tissue massage therapist that is actually a teacher at the local massage school, besides, he's worked on me before and I know he is good, LOL, Wish you were local brotha, I'd help you out!
ScottyDoc
Well-known member
All of that sounds great, I would still take it slow and lots of heat/ice, heat before you exercise, even if it is to just into a sauna for like 10 mins pre-workout and ice after. And anytime during the day 15mins heat followed immediately by 15mins of ice, those things can never hurt, only help! Good luck, glad your prognosis sounds good!
ItsHectic
Registered User
Well it has been almost 6 weeks since I saw my PT and I haven't been working out because it has just been gradually getting worse, its not the pain getting worse just the frequency, I have been keeping my shoulder out of the impingement zone but still get pain doing random stuff like tying my shoelaces and other things that involve my arm being completely adducted.
I just did some light resistance and my shoulder hurt while abducting during the 1st 20 degrees, so its making me wonder if it is actually a tear or not, its not a sharp pain its dull and about a 2 on a scale of 1-10.
I just did some light resistance and my shoulder hurt while abducting during the 1st 20 degrees, so its making me wonder if it is actually a tear or not, its not a sharp pain its dull and about a 2 on a scale of 1-10.
ScottyDoc
Well-known member
I am sorry to hear that brother, I don't know what more to tell you! If it makes you feel any better, my shoulder still hurts daily... all the time! It doesn't matter if I warm it up, rehab it, about 6 mos. ago I took like 3 mos off of the gym right after I got married to spend extra time with the wifey and give my shoulder a break (kind of a double excuse, LOL). I am now starting to notice that my left Acromioclavicular notch (bony prominence between trap and middle delt) is larger than my right. Don't know if I have some funky bone growth happening due to the injury or bone spur which caused the pain to begin with or what! Nothing really shows up on X-ray though. And just like your pain, it is never sharp, never severe, a little more than a 2 on the 1-10 pain scale, mine is more like a 4/10 normally and can get as bad as a 6/10 if I really aggravate it, it is just a deep dull ache.
wood23
Member
I have had a shoulder problem since may and with the help of threads like these and research i has gotten alot better. At the start t could not even hold a warmup weight on bench press and couldnt raise my arm to the side or overhead it was so weak and because of the pain. It hen went through a phase where it would be a loud click and would feel like it was getting stuck. Even though i could not do bench press i was able to do a cable machine bench press for some reason. I can now just do a really light weight on bench press.
But the 1 thing that i am really having trouble with is i cannot even hold my own weight to do a chinup or lat pulldown. The pain seems to be coming from up under the armpit closer to the outerside. I really miss the variety of doing the chinup and even though still unable to do heavy bench press i can do a cable version and things are slowly getting better. Does anyone have any ideas as to why doing a chin up is still an issue? I know i need to see a doctor but for reasons i cannot discuss i cannot a this time. Thats why i am hoping someone will have some ideas, exercises, stretches etc that might help.
Thanks for reading this long post.
But the 1 thing that i am really having trouble with is i cannot even hold my own weight to do a chinup or lat pulldown. The pain seems to be coming from up under the armpit closer to the outerside. I really miss the variety of doing the chinup and even though still unable to do heavy bench press i can do a cable version and things are slowly getting better. Does anyone have any ideas as to why doing a chin up is still an issue? I know i need to see a doctor but for reasons i cannot discuss i cannot a this time. Thats why i am hoping someone will have some ideas, exercises, stretches etc that might help.
Thanks for reading this long post.
BigKrabbe
Active member
Interesting and good discussion going on in this thread. Couple of things..after years of battling shoulder injuries on and off I have come across a few things that within weeks have alleviated my shoulder problems when I over do it if not faster. First things first DO MYOFASCIAL RELEASE..go to home depot. get a 3-4 foot pvc pipe and look up foam rolling exercises on you tube. It helps DRASTICALLY, and will help break up scar tissue as well. Secondly, adding in face pulls to any pressing day has seemed to help me dramatically with my rotator cuff exercises. Cissus helped me when I was having problems as well. Lastly, learn to bench right..don't let your shoulders roll forward. Keep your back tight, shoulders back throughout the entire movement. I bench heavy and do military press now pain free with no problems. Best of luck to all of you with shoulder problems. OH one last thing..look into shoulder dislocations with a towel.
fadi
Well-known member
Dr Scott,
You describe the same pain I have in my right shoulder. It feel as if it is the bone at the top end of my shoulder. It is tender to the touch.
I've seen a chiropractor about my back and shoulder, he told me to just stretch my shoulder and ice it. My shoulder was pulling forward too much (prior to working out) but is retracting now.
The pain in my right shoulder has been going on for years, I've seen a doctor couple of times who gave me anti inflamation meds, and couple of steroid shots in the shoulder at different times with no result.
Right now if I lift both my arms to the side forming L shape parallel to the floor then rotating my forarm up perpendicular to the floor I feel pain as if something being squeezed inside my shoulders and some poping noise. I also get shooting pain from shoulders down my biceps when benching but no pain when doing overhead press.
I've been icing them, is there something else I can do? I'm planning on switching to heat/ice technique as you mentioned.
bezoe
Well-known member
Ill interject my educated opinion and doc please correct me if you feel different.
This issue sounds like impingment syndrome. Essentially this is an impairment where your shoulder complex muscles are imbalanced (typically rotator cuff muscles). The reason i say this is because youre describing referred pain when abducting and internally rotating the shoulder. Your supraspinatus is being compressed between two bony prominences and causing the weakness and pain.
I quit flat benching, but you may not want to for numerous reasons of your own. As far as rehab, if i am correct in my cyber-diagnosis, you want to incorporate plenty of exercises to strengthen the other 3 rotator cuff muscles to produce a balance to the dynamic stability of your shoulder glenohumeral joint. External Rotations with a theraband or even a DB should help.
fadi
Well-known member
Thanks Bezoe,
I've been doing that workout for over a month now, and have been working on getting my shoulders stronger, specially the back side. The pain is still there though and I tend to stop workingout the minute i feel any kind of pinch in the shoulder. No point of making it worse even if it affects my workout.
I've been doing that workout for over a month now, and have been working on getting my shoulders stronger, specially the back side. The pain is still there though and I tend to stop workingout the minute i feel any kind of pinch in the shoulder. No point of making it worse even if it affects my workout.
TipTopShape
Member
Your shoulder joint is composed of three bones: the clavicle (collarbone), the scapula (shoulder blade), and the humerus (upper arm bone). Your shoulders are the most movable joints in your body. They can also be unstable because the ball of the upper arm is larger than the shoulder socket that holds it. To remain in a stable or normal position, the shoulder must be anchored by muscles, tendons and ligaments. Because the shoulder can be unstable, it is the site of many common problems. They include sprains, strains, dislocations, separations, tendinitis, bursitis, torn rotator cuffs, frozen shoulder, fractures and arthritis.
Usually shoulder problems are treated with RICE. This stands for Rest, Ice, Compression and Elevation. Other treatments include exercise, medicines to reduce pain and swelling, and surgery if other treatments don't work.
Usually shoulder problems are treated with RICE. This stands for Rest, Ice, Compression and Elevation. Other treatments include exercise, medicines to reduce pain and swelling, and surgery if other treatments don't work.
ScottyDoc
Well-known member
Fadi & Bezoe,
Guys... I haven't heard or seen anything that I would object to as far as a diagnosis or a treatment goes. Shoulder joints are hard enough to diagnose when trying to do it in person, much less with someone's symptoms online, so all suggestions are welcome, by all means! Like TiptopShape mentioned there are a lot of factors involved in a very unstable area of the body and then we have stuff like referred pain & impingements which can act like separated shoulder or partial tears of the rotator cuff as well as combinations of all the above mentioned. Anyway, to get to the point, these are all excellent suggestions and my biggest suggestion is keep trying different things, always giving them at least 2 wks to determine if it is working, find one that works and stick with it because unfortunately we all react to different therapies differently even though they are all very similar or designed to treat the same symptoms.
Bezoe... BTW... I like the video you put in there, I perform those exercises personally, but never with the ball between my elbow and oblique/flank to stabilize better, will definitely be adding an exercise ball or something to add more stabilization to my rotator cuff exercises, thanks!
Guys... I haven't heard or seen anything that I would object to as far as a diagnosis or a treatment goes. Shoulder joints are hard enough to diagnose when trying to do it in person, much less with someone's symptoms online, so all suggestions are welcome, by all means! Like TiptopShape mentioned there are a lot of factors involved in a very unstable area of the body and then we have stuff like referred pain & impingements which can act like separated shoulder or partial tears of the rotator cuff as well as combinations of all the above mentioned. Anyway, to get to the point, these are all excellent suggestions and my biggest suggestion is keep trying different things, always giving them at least 2 wks to determine if it is working, find one that works and stick with it because unfortunately we all react to different therapies differently even though they are all very similar or designed to treat the same symptoms.
Bezoe... BTW... I like the video you put in there, I perform those exercises personally, but never with the ball between my elbow and oblique/flank to stabilize better, will definitely be adding an exercise ball or something to add more stabilization to my rotator cuff exercises, thanks!
JohnBrinks
Member
This is an awsome thread SD!!! I just skimmed it, Im tired after a long day Ill have a good looks at it anothers times.
Heres an interesting one for you's. I dont go to doctors anymore, everytime Ive been their treatments havnt worked for me, lone behold years later Ive become better at treating myself and Ive realised some of the things doctors have told me to do have kept in in poor health.
One bad experience for example, I had a niggling pain that seemed to come and go for no apparent reason since I was 12 years old, till one day that little niggle was there, and then the very next day I couldnt even move without yelping let alone get out of bed ( 11 years later ).
that was 3 years ago, after a week on 25mg diclofenac sodium it was back to a little niggle but not all gone, so the doc sent me to a physio (NHS referal).
The fist thing the physio did (not massage) was attemp to unfuse my spine in the location where I had pain (some kind of un-qualified chiropracting). needless to say he shouldnt have done that cos immediately it made it worse, it left me feeling with a strange sinking pain in my back and chest like I was having a heart attack and seemed to affect my breathing. Then he sent me on my merry way tewlling me it should get better now, but if not come back in for more treatment. Yeah right! I ran away and Ill never ever go back.
Lately Ive discovered what the problems been all these 14 years. After taking pictures of me doing a back double bicep pose its plain to see I have a C shape in my spine, Ive been using things found on the internet like hanging upside down for a few minutes and then resting on the floor to let my spine adjust to the new length. Its alot straighter now but still a slight offset in the vertebra at the mid region of my lumborum where the bend orrigionated at the bottom. My back is perfectly straight when Im relaxed until I hold a pose, then its obviouse to see.
That niggling problem Ive had for 14 years (pluss) is related ( but too much to explian how - But Ill put a log up about it someday)
The right side of my lower back is week and tight and my right side of my
back all the way up to my shoulders is tight, it crosses over to my left near
the top - my left lower trap, left rhombiods, left levator scapula and deep
neck muscles are all tight. It crosses over at the bottom aswell - my left
glute and left hamstrings are week. My left calf is very strong though,
probably to compensate.
The C bends off to the left looking at me from behind (well done if you figured it out already) so my left leg straddles mor weight than my right and is bent inwards only very slightly, its plain to see when I walk with shorts. When I do hamstring curls the inner side of my left ham experiences pain and disscomfort at the stretched end of the movement so for years Ive been limiting the ROM to mainly medium. I jumped over a wall 2 years ago and almost completely snaped a ligament in my left foot. when I do BD pullovers you can see my left rib cage sticks out more.
And the headaches, Oh God, the headaches are the worst. Ive had a majour problem with headaches since my childhood I cant quite remember when they started. I went for blood tests, ECG's, brain scans, and all different kind of specialists to find out what the cause may be. Thankfully none of them could find a thing wrong with me appart from Attention Deficit Hyper-active Dissorder, so I was put on ritalin full time for 4 years of my childhood, which stunted my growth. I started out at 7 years old one of the tallest kids in the class and ended up one of the shortest at 11, I stayed arround 23kg for 2 years of childhood, and thats a chronic ailment (which couldnt have helped my posture development at all). Ive always felt the headaches were connected to my neck but the doctors could never figure out how.
As for my shoulders I wake up in the morning with tight shoulders frequently, my upper traps try to overcompensate for the problems going on arround my medial traps and are often tight. And I suspect my upper pecs and pectoralis minor try to compensate for my rhomboid problems. Appart from tight subscaps which pull my humerous a little foreward in the cavity from what they should be from time to time my actual shoulders are not too bad...
Oppinions, suggestions and advice needed gentlemen, please.
Heres an interesting one for you's. I dont go to doctors anymore, everytime Ive been their treatments havnt worked for me, lone behold years later Ive become better at treating myself and Ive realised some of the things doctors have told me to do have kept in in poor health.
One bad experience for example, I had a niggling pain that seemed to come and go for no apparent reason since I was 12 years old, till one day that little niggle was there, and then the very next day I couldnt even move without yelping let alone get out of bed ( 11 years later ).
that was 3 years ago, after a week on 25mg diclofenac sodium it was back to a little niggle but not all gone, so the doc sent me to a physio (NHS referal).
The fist thing the physio did (not massage) was attemp to unfuse my spine in the location where I had pain (some kind of un-qualified chiropracting). needless to say he shouldnt have done that cos immediately it made it worse, it left me feeling with a strange sinking pain in my back and chest like I was having a heart attack and seemed to affect my breathing. Then he sent me on my merry way tewlling me it should get better now, but if not come back in for more treatment. Yeah right! I ran away and Ill never ever go back.
Lately Ive discovered what the problems been all these 14 years. After taking pictures of me doing a back double bicep pose its plain to see I have a C shape in my spine, Ive been using things found on the internet like hanging upside down for a few minutes and then resting on the floor to let my spine adjust to the new length. Its alot straighter now but still a slight offset in the vertebra at the mid region of my lumborum where the bend orrigionated at the bottom. My back is perfectly straight when Im relaxed until I hold a pose, then its obviouse to see.
That niggling problem Ive had for 14 years (pluss) is related ( but too much to explian how - But Ill put a log up about it someday)
The right side of my lower back is week and tight and my right side of my
back all the way up to my shoulders is tight, it crosses over to my left near
the top - my left lower trap, left rhombiods, left levator scapula and deep
neck muscles are all tight. It crosses over at the bottom aswell - my left
glute and left hamstrings are week. My left calf is very strong though,
probably to compensate.
The C bends off to the left looking at me from behind (well done if you figured it out already) so my left leg straddles mor weight than my right and is bent inwards only very slightly, its plain to see when I walk with shorts. When I do hamstring curls the inner side of my left ham experiences pain and disscomfort at the stretched end of the movement so for years Ive been limiting the ROM to mainly medium. I jumped over a wall 2 years ago and almost completely snaped a ligament in my left foot. when I do BD pullovers you can see my left rib cage sticks out more.
And the headaches, Oh God, the headaches are the worst. Ive had a majour problem with headaches since my childhood I cant quite remember when they started. I went for blood tests, ECG's, brain scans, and all different kind of specialists to find out what the cause may be. Thankfully none of them could find a thing wrong with me appart from Attention Deficit Hyper-active Dissorder, so I was put on ritalin full time for 4 years of my childhood, which stunted my growth. I started out at 7 years old one of the tallest kids in the class and ended up one of the shortest at 11, I stayed arround 23kg for 2 years of childhood, and thats a chronic ailment (which couldnt have helped my posture development at all). Ive always felt the headaches were connected to my neck but the doctors could never figure out how.
As for my shoulders I wake up in the morning with tight shoulders frequently, my upper traps try to overcompensate for the problems going on arround my medial traps and are often tight. And I suspect my upper pecs and pectoralis minor try to compensate for my rhomboid problems. Appart from tight subscaps which pull my humerous a little foreward in the cavity from what they should be from time to time my actual shoulders are not too bad...
Oppinions, suggestions and advice needed gentlemen, please.
bezoe
Well-known member
Holy **** Brinks you are a mess.. where do i begin lol
The spinal curvature is called "scoliosis"- to differentiate between functional and structural you can bend forward standing up and have someone observe whether or not your rib hump disappears. If it does, i believe, your scoliosis is functional and you can correct it by correcting your posture.
You have a "left convex scoliosis" or "left 'c' shaped curvature" of the spine.. one small trick i know of is to find a wall, put your left shoulder against it and push your hip with your right hand towards the wall on the left- this overtime can straighten out the curve.
Also, what happened at the physio may have been something called "centralization". Its actually a good thing if the problem was nerve root impingment. I wont get into it, but just know it may have not been such a bad incidence.
As for your shoulder issue... ill let Doc address that lol
The spinal curvature is called "scoliosis"- to differentiate between functional and structural you can bend forward standing up and have someone observe whether or not your rib hump disappears. If it does, i believe, your scoliosis is functional and you can correct it by correcting your posture.
You have a "left convex scoliosis" or "left 'c' shaped curvature" of the spine.. one small trick i know of is to find a wall, put your left shoulder against it and push your hip with your right hand towards the wall on the left- this overtime can straighten out the curve.
Also, what happened at the physio may have been something called "centralization". Its actually a good thing if the problem was nerve root impingment. I wont get into it, but just know it may have not been such a bad incidence.
As for your shoulder issue... ill let Doc address that lol
JohnBrinks
Member
It sounds like your left Levator scapula may be tight, and its often connected to the rohmbiod.
Unilateral exercises work those muscles out very effectively, but you need to do long sets and slowly, one side at a time.
Dont over do it, start off with just one set of each.
one arm shrugs (pull your shoulders back, not just up)
supinated anterior raise - bring your hand out to the side a little out from the shoulder towards the top and focus on keeping your core braced. - curl your little finger up at the top. keep your elbow slightly bent elbow locked, hand out in front, bring it almost all the way up - slowly. focus on the movement of your scapula as follows - when you pull you hand up your scapula rotates round and points foreward, as you bring your hand down it rotates and points slightly back (in the natural possition) but as soon as you move your arm the scapula follows in a stable unison. (Scapulo-humeral rythum.)
one arm shoulder presses.
reverse flys - do this one with two hands keeping your hands below upper trap height to isolate the medial traps. Hold it at the top for a count because the idea is to train your medial traps to do the stabalising, instead of you levator scapula and upper traps trying to take over causing pain, also problems later on down the line if left un treated.
JohnBrinks
Member
sound! nice one Bezoe, that has really helped. not that Im doing it already lol. But I can see its a missing element to what Ive been doing for it and I know its gona get me a little closer. :veryhappy: Luv ya bro!
:You_Rock_Emoticon:
Oh right, I see
:You_Rock_Emoticon:
Oh right, I see
bezoe
Well-known member
"Centralization is the opposite. When pain is no longer as far down the leg, it is starting to centralize. If the pain is no longer down the leg but now is only in the buttocks, it is centralizing further. If centralization continues, the pain will recede towards the lumbar midline and eventually, with continued end range movements, disappears."
"As long as the annulus and the hydrostatic mechanism of the disc are intact, repeated end range loading of the spine (repeated movements) can return the displaced nuclear material, thus centralizing and reducing the pain. If no directed movements are able to centralize the pain and if multiple movements result in peripheralization of the pain, then it is theorized that the annulus is torn and that the hydrostatic mechanism of the disc is no longer functioning"
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"As long as the annulus and the hydrostatic mechanism of the disc are intact, repeated end range loading of the spine (repeated movements) can return the displaced nuclear material, thus centralizing and reducing the pain. If no directed movements are able to centralize the pain and if multiple movements result in peripheralization of the pain, then it is theorized that the annulus is torn and that the hydrostatic mechanism of the disc is no longer functioning"
Invalid Link Removed
bezoe
Well-known member
During lumbar traction techniques to alleviate discogenic pain, we learned that when the traction is stopped, centralization may occur, thus eliciting moderate to severe pain in the exact region from which the pain is originating. This is actually a desired effect- it signifies that pressure on the involved nerve root has been decreased, and peripheral pain (shooting pain down the leg or ass) is no longer present.
JohnBrinks
Member
The pain has been bothering me for the last 2 months, but its almost dissapeared in the last two days!!
ScottyDoc
Well-known member
John,
Hey I wanted to address your scoliosis (c shaped spine). Technically it makes an S, you may only see the top or bottom C, but you can't have one curve in on direction without having an apposing curve above or below, so always an S, like two C's opposite and on top of one another. Second, there is a test, I believe it is called Adam's Test for scoliosis, it is very easy, but will require someone to do it for you, it is testing for functional scoliosis which I believe is what you have. Hence why when you are relaxed your spine is straight, but when you flex, it scoliosis. All you do is have someone stand behind you, run their hand down your spine checking to see if it is straight, then have you bend over and check again, if it changes you have a functional scoliosis. Do that test, and then we can figure out to what degree your scoliosis is and I'll figure out some exercises you can perform to see if we can minimize that sucker, usually can never fix 100%, but can get close if you are consistant with exercises.
ScottyDoc - AL
Hey I wanted to address your scoliosis (c shaped spine). Technically it makes an S, you may only see the top or bottom C, but you can't have one curve in on direction without having an apposing curve above or below, so always an S, like two C's opposite and on top of one another. Second, there is a test, I believe it is called Adam's Test for scoliosis, it is very easy, but will require someone to do it for you, it is testing for functional scoliosis which I believe is what you have. Hence why when you are relaxed your spine is straight, but when you flex, it scoliosis. All you do is have someone stand behind you, run their hand down your spine checking to see if it is straight, then have you bend over and check again, if it changes you have a functional scoliosis. Do that test, and then we can figure out to what degree your scoliosis is and I'll figure out some exercises you can perform to see if we can minimize that sucker, usually can never fix 100%, but can get close if you are consistant with exercises.
ScottyDoc - AL
ScottyDoc
Well-known member
OK, I seemed to have a little miscommunication with my company and the Mod’s here at Anabolicminds.com, I believe we have it all straightened out now and I am now allowed to promote the company I work for & myself as a representative of that company.
Hello fellow exercise and nutrition buff’s, I would like to introduce myself as an official representative for Redefine Nutrition. Redefined Nutrition is the maker of FINAFLEX products. My name is Dr. Albert Scott, I am a Chiropractor by trade and personally, have been weightlifting for over 20 years. Chiropractically, I have worked with and treated a large number of collegiate and professional athletes as well as your typical self -trained athlete from the gym, like myself.
The reason why I am here introducing myself today is to offer my services as an official representative of Redefine Nutrition to help answer any questions out there about our products.
Also, be advised that within a matter of days we (Redefine Nutrition) should have its very own Forum in which I will send links to all my friends and the people who have followed me on my logs and people I have followed as well... Thanks guys for all the support!
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Hello fellow exercise and nutrition buff’s, I would like to introduce myself as an official representative for Redefine Nutrition. Redefined Nutrition is the maker of FINAFLEX products. My name is Dr. Albert Scott, I am a Chiropractor by trade and personally, have been weightlifting for over 20 years. Chiropractically, I have worked with and treated a large number of collegiate and professional athletes as well as your typical self -trained athlete from the gym, like myself.
The reason why I am here introducing myself today is to offer my services as an official representative of Redefine Nutrition to help answer any questions out there about our products.
Also, be advised that within a matter of days we (Redefine Nutrition) should have its very own Forum in which I will send links to all my friends and the people who have followed me on my logs and people I have followed as well... Thanks guys for all the support!
Invalid Link Removed
celc5
Well-known member
Hey Scotty, I followed your link over to this thread. After reading the original post, I agree with your overall philosophy.
I have just a few minor additions to suggest. I like to stress that control is priority through a pain free range. For example, external rotations can cause irritation (sometimes worsen impingement) at the end range. In which case, you can still force blood into the cuff within a shorter range.
On that note, I also recommend starting off with the "elbow at side" position rather than the "football throw" position. There's nothing wrong with the football throw position after the cuff is warm. At the same time, I'd say it's probably gonna irritate the cuff if it's the first movement. Also, most lifters in the general popular can't tell if it's a labral issue rather than cuff. So, that position might make the labral issue worse, whereas elbow at side is open packed without labral stress.
Finally, I really respect your emphasis on autonomy. I believe that comes from practitioners that genuinely care more about the patient than the business dollars. I firmly believe that patient's get the best results when the physician, chiro, PT, etc all work together.
I have just a few minor additions to suggest. I like to stress that control is priority through a pain free range. For example, external rotations can cause irritation (sometimes worsen impingement) at the end range. In which case, you can still force blood into the cuff within a shorter range.
On that note, I also recommend starting off with the "elbow at side" position rather than the "football throw" position. There's nothing wrong with the football throw position after the cuff is warm. At the same time, I'd say it's probably gonna irritate the cuff if it's the first movement. Also, most lifters in the general popular can't tell if it's a labral issue rather than cuff. So, that position might make the labral issue worse, whereas elbow at side is open packed without labral stress.
Finally, I really respect your emphasis on autonomy. I believe that comes from practitioners that genuinely care more about the patient than the business dollars. I firmly believe that patient's get the best results when the physician, chiro, PT, etc all work together.
ScottyDoc
Well-known member
I completely agree with your above suggestions, I honestly did not take that into account, but now that you have brought that to my attention, I completely agree and will be sure to utilize that in both my practice and rehab suggestions. Thank you!
bashman
Well-known member
Hey ScottyDoc hopping you could share your wisdom. I had an MRI last month, notes stated
"The acromium is of type one configuration with no significant slope. The acromioclavicular joint is normal. The supraspinatus and infraspinatus tendons are intact. No abnormality is seen in relation to the long head of biceps. A 9mm pocket of fluid is seen adjacent to the anterior aspect of the glenoid labrum. The appearances are highly suggestive of an anterior labral tear and referral to a shoulder surgeon is advised for further evaluation."
Its been 5 months since the injury happened, been attending PT since Feb and have shown little improvement. I have always had full range of movement without pain except for certain rotator cuff exercies, but certainly no agonising pain - no tenderness anymore (was quite severe at the time, Inflamination?) and the "clicking" I was experienced had died down, which again did not cause pain.
Is this injury similar to a "SLAP tear"?
"The acromium is of type one configuration with no significant slope. The acromioclavicular joint is normal. The supraspinatus and infraspinatus tendons are intact. No abnormality is seen in relation to the long head of biceps. A 9mm pocket of fluid is seen adjacent to the anterior aspect of the glenoid labrum. The appearances are highly suggestive of an anterior labral tear and referral to a shoulder surgeon is advised for further evaluation."
Its been 5 months since the injury happened, been attending PT since Feb and have shown little improvement. I have always had full range of movement without pain except for certain rotator cuff exercies, but certainly no agonising pain - no tenderness anymore (was quite severe at the time, Inflamination?) and the "clicking" I was experienced had died down, which again did not cause pain.
Is this injury similar to a "SLAP tear"?
ScottyDoc
Well-known member
OK, I'm going to first be honest and inform you I have never heard of the term "SLAP" tear. I am assuming that acronym is somehow synonymous with an anterior labrum tear and even if the pain subsides, it could still be torn. It is hard to advise at this point, if the pain is gone and you have full ROM (range of motion) I would continue to exercise, but if there are certain exercises you cannot perform, then it probably is torn and you will not be able to perform those exercises without surgery. What were the exercises they had you performing in PT? Also, what was their advice and/or opinion on surgery, I mean they would know better than me, because they actually had their hands on you? Try to give me a little more information as to what problems or pain are you experiencing now? Also, when I said if there is no pain and you have full ROM, that doesn't mean go back fully force, obviously you need to work your way back into your upper-body exercises with light weight and higher reps slowly increasing your weights, I would take at least 6 mos. to try and get back to where you were (lbs being pushed or pulled) pre-injury.
ScottyDoc
Well-known member
OK, I found "SLAP tear" and my answer is YES, it does sound right and very well could be your problem... Invalid Link Removed. Please update me on any additional info you have, what your Doctor is advising, what the PT's were or are advising, what motions you have trouble or pain in performing, etc.
bashman
Well-known member
Thanks for the reply ScottyDoc I greatly appreciate your time. So far my doctor has arranged a meeting with a shoulder surgeon who I should be seeing soon.
I believe it happend from using to much swinging during my last heavy set of front dumbell raises. From what I have read, this type of motion is a common cause for this type of injury i.e forward forceful movement.
They day after, it started with a more dull ache pain going down side of left upper arm (on the left hand side of the bicep region) that slowly progress into a more sharp pain and resulted in loss of strength, although I was still able to push/pull heavy. Grabbing the squat bar behind neck, really aggraivted the pain in upper arm. Wierd thing was I never felt pain in my shoulder at all.
It flared up worse after I stopped lifting and became very inflamed/tender on the side of my shoulder and very top end of my bicep were it connects to the shoulder - which has dramatically died down since takin anti-flam and my shoulder is no longer tender when pressure applied.
I have been seeing a private physiopherapist, comes very recommended, since February who diagnosed my condition as a tear to anterior dealt and rotator cuff - never mentioned labral/SLAP tear or surgery, said I should be 100% if not near by 12 weeks - certainly not the case.
PT exercises included front raises, lateral raises, bicep curls, tricep extensions. I personally decided to add in varrious rotator cuff execrises.
I fear surgery is the only option left. Do you personally know the success rate and will I ever be 100% or hindered for life?
I believe it happend from using to much swinging during my last heavy set of front dumbell raises. From what I have read, this type of motion is a common cause for this type of injury i.e forward forceful movement.
They day after, it started with a more dull ache pain going down side of left upper arm (on the left hand side of the bicep region) that slowly progress into a more sharp pain and resulted in loss of strength, although I was still able to push/pull heavy. Grabbing the squat bar behind neck, really aggraivted the pain in upper arm. Wierd thing was I never felt pain in my shoulder at all.
It flared up worse after I stopped lifting and became very inflamed/tender on the side of my shoulder and very top end of my bicep were it connects to the shoulder - which has dramatically died down since takin anti-flam and my shoulder is no longer tender when pressure applied.
I have been seeing a private physiopherapist, comes very recommended, since February who diagnosed my condition as a tear to anterior dealt and rotator cuff - never mentioned labral/SLAP tear or surgery, said I should be 100% if not near by 12 weeks - certainly not the case.
PT exercises included front raises, lateral raises, bicep curls, tricep extensions. I personally decided to add in varrious rotator cuff execrises.
I fear surgery is the only option left. Do you personally know the success rate and will I ever be 100% or hindered for life?
ScottyDoc
Well-known member
First off, you are quite welcome, that is why I am here to help, which hopefully I am helping you...
OK... Like I said before I am not there, I'm not the one performing the different tests, etc. But from what I am hearing, you did not get the results you were hoping for from the Physiotherapist, which is nothing against him/her, but it is looking more like the original diagnosis was correct. I think you did the right thing, I mean I always try my best to avoid surgery whenever possible, but sometimes it is necessary. As far as me hearing or knowing of cases that end with 100% recovery... No, not gonna happen! With a good surgeon, typical recovery can be between 80-90% and remember that is from PERFECT. So look at it from this perspective, you were probably around 60-70% when the injury took place, you probably didn't realize this, but you were, very rare an injury like your type occurs when someone is functioning at 100%. I am also assuming due to your pain you are probably at around 30-50% now at best, so look at how much you will improve from where you are now, and if you re-hab it properly you can achieve your goal of having no pain and with some effort surpass where you were even before the injury, but remember... carefully and slowly!
I hope this all makes sense to you and helps you, just pay close attention to what your surgeon tells you, make him/her break it down for you if you don't understand what they are saying (speaking in Medical jargon) they love doing that, they really don't like it when patients want to play an active role in what they are doing, typically they are happiest when they can just tell you they will fix you and you just say..."OK" Also, if they do overload you with a bunch of technical jargon, if you can relay that to me, I'll put it in English for you!
bashman
Well-known member
I cannot post without thanking you, your time means a lot to me, especially as every other so called "expert" has looked at me as a joke whenever they saw I had full ROM.
I have been saying from day 1 it was somehting more serious and having been pushing for an MRI for months and I was right on the money all along.
I have been researching for hours into this type of injury, so its going to be harder for the surgeon to pull the wool over my eyes compared to the normal guy who walks in. Typically if he tries this, then I'll know to walk away and find another surgeon - not going to let someone butcher me.
I'm going to be on GHRP 2 + CJC 1295, cissus, fish oils, glucosamine vit c etc... so hopefully will help me recover strong and well. Luckily my game is bodybuilding not powerlfting, so as long as I can eventually get back in the gym and train hard, I'll know I'll be back where I was and more.
You deserve an enormous amount of praise for this thread, god bless and thank you ScottyDoc.
I have been saying from day 1 it was somehting more serious and having been pushing for an MRI for months and I was right on the money all along.
I have been researching for hours into this type of injury, so its going to be harder for the surgeon to pull the wool over my eyes compared to the normal guy who walks in. Typically if he tries this, then I'll know to walk away and find another surgeon - not going to let someone butcher me.
I'm going to be on GHRP 2 + CJC 1295, cissus, fish oils, glucosamine vit c etc... so hopefully will help me recover strong and well. Luckily my game is bodybuilding not powerlfting, so as long as I can eventually get back in the gym and train hard, I'll know I'll be back where I was and more.
You deserve an enormous amount of praise for this thread, god bless and thank you ScottyDoc.
ScottyDoc
Well-known member
Thank you, that means a lot to me and I am truly happy to help you my man! I agree with you full fledged, if they try to smother you with bull$hit medical jargon and are not willig to give you the time you deserve (answering questions, putting you at ease) especially considering the $$$ they are getting from your surgery and the fact that you are putting your trust and faith in them (going under the knife so to speak) to correct your problem, well they better damn well be willing to give you all the time and attention and answer any and all questions you may have! No matter how you look at it, break it down this way, you are the customer and you are paying them, if they want your business, they have to make you happy, you are the one in control, they won't like it, and might not be used to that, but bottom line, that is how it is and you let them know that (only if they try to bull**** you) otherwise if you are dealing with someone like myself (I like to educate all my patients on what and why I am doing whenever their health is concerned).
Another thing to keep in mind is $$$Price$$$ is negotiable, they might act like it is not, but it is, trust me on this one! Especially if your insurances coverage is good and they want a huge co-pay or deductible, most of the time depending on how much we are talking about will depend on whether they will cut it in half or even waive the whole thing! Remember they are running a business, competing for your business just like any other company! If you need help with what they want you to pay vs. what I think you should pay, based on your Ins. coverage etc. feel free to PM me with those more personal questions and I will do my best to guide you!
Good Luck my friend, also, you will get closer to 100% recovery by following the bodybuilder style of training vs. powerlifting style. Just remember to take it slow...slow...slow. Not sure if you know from previous posts of mine or not, but I tore my left Pec muscle approx. 5yrs ago and when I came back I lifted so light, but for so many reps, I completely transformed my body from a 240 Lb strongman type of body (lots of excess fat and unnecessary strength) to a lean mean 185 Lb ripped to the bone machine that you see in my Avatar. Also, I achieved that in less than 2yrs after my surgery BTW! Oh and both myself and the LADIES like the new leaner-meaner Me, LoL!
bezoe
Well-known member
Damn i missed alot.. so i just skimmed over the last few posts. Bashman, a labral tear will seldom heal on its own. Especially the superior portion, because i believe, the labrum is shaped like a "C" and the open portion is at the top and its less vascular (needs secondary healing- surgical suture).
I would suggest having the surgery. Typically, they go in arthroscopically with a camera and assess the entire shoulder joint and determine what exactly needs to be repaired and usually go ahead and do it. Most likely theyll sew up or snip off the torn piece of your labrum and debride any other fibrotic tissue.
Some surgeons will "shave" off the acromium which, in my professional opinion, is more detrimental than benefitial because it allows the humerus too much mobility.
Typically, complete recovery is 24-36 weeks. You dont want to go on without surgical intervention- this may lead to accelerated arthritic changes.
I would suggest having the surgery. Typically, they go in arthroscopically with a camera and assess the entire shoulder joint and determine what exactly needs to be repaired and usually go ahead and do it. Most likely theyll sew up or snip off the torn piece of your labrum and debride any other fibrotic tissue.
Some surgeons will "shave" off the acromium which, in my professional opinion, is more detrimental than benefitial because it allows the humerus too much mobility.
Typically, complete recovery is 24-36 weeks. You dont want to go on without surgical intervention- this may lead to accelerated arthritic changes.
bashman
Well-known member
bezoe very greatful for the information. My consultation should be within the next 4 weeks, so I'll be sure to get the specific information you requested. Would appreciate you posting anything else you think might be useful as this is going to be my 1st time surgery, I want to make sure I do everything correctly.
ScottyDoc
Well-known member
Bash, just wanna make sure I inform you that this Bezoe guy, well... He's da MAN! LoL We have gone back and forth on this board a lot over the past year, he is extremely knowledgable and I highly respect his opinion! Also, being a PT, he has a great deal of experience dealing with MD's and surgeon's etc. They come see me to avoid the surgery (if possible) and they see him sometimes to avoid surgery, but always after a surgery, so he definitely gets to see from personal experience which surgeries take to longest to recover from and which surgeries have the best outcomes, etc. etc.
In short, he knows what he is talking about!!!
bezoe
Well-known member
Thanks alot Doc!! Its an honor to have respect from someone like yourself!! And yea I think we would make a hell of a team clinically!
I just try to add what little bit i know. Doc covers everything pretty thoroughly!
Bashman, the only other think I can think of is to find a good PT outpatient clinic to rehab the shoulder post surgery. Obviously, all the employees will be licensed and trained professionals, but some are always better than others.
You might want to even start strengthening the shoulder pre-surgery to make the rehab process go a little more smoothly.
Also, the acromium being shaved is most typical during rotator cuff and/or biceps tendon repair, but there's always a chance the surgeon may be inclined to shave it during a SLAP lesion repair for any number of reasons, so I would definetly ask to make sure.
I just try to add what little bit i know. Doc covers everything pretty thoroughly!
Bashman, the only other think I can think of is to find a good PT outpatient clinic to rehab the shoulder post surgery. Obviously, all the employees will be licensed and trained professionals, but some are always better than others.
You might want to even start strengthening the shoulder pre-surgery to make the rehab process go a little more smoothly.
Also, the acromium being shaved is most typical during rotator cuff and/or biceps tendon repair, but there's always a chance the surgeon may be inclined to shave it during a SLAP lesion repair for any number of reasons, so I would definetly ask to make sure.
windwords7
Well-known member
Scotty, this a long thread that I don't have time to read in entirety this moment but I've recently won a battle with my shoulders that were both giving my grief. After a day of tabada push presses both sides in the clavicle area got very sore and then the right shoulder got really painful in the bicep long tendon and then down the back side of my delts. Lasted for days and get worse and worse. Finally went into to see my doc who verified that the rotator cuffs were fine overall and hit me with 10cc's of lidocaine in the affected tendons to turn the pain signal off and see if they just needed to understand that I was healing. We discussed what would be next if necessary and landed on Prolotherapy. Are you familiar with Prolo and have you used it or know others who have? I am integrating a lot resistance band excercies into my regimen after this recent episode and will be back soon to learn more. Thanks for your time and killer contributions.
ScottyDoc
Well-known member
OK, my familiarity with this process is very little. I had to Google it to understand exactly what it was and after doing so and reading the Wikipedia definition Invalid Link Removed. I have heard of this and am familiar with a few doctors here in Atlanta that perform this therapy on a regular basis. But, my actual personal experience with it is extremely limited and with that being said, I don't feel qualified to offer any additional advice in that area.
Bezoe if you have any knowledge on this type of procedure? or if anyone out there paying attention has personally had experience with it, Please educate me, hear to learn on this one!!!
bezoe
Well-known member
I wikied it as well Doc. Its short for "Proliferation Therapy". Proliferation, as we both know, meaning laying down of new tissue during healing. When I read what it was, i recalled a PT explaining it to a patient awhile back as an alternative to shoulder manipulation under anesthesia, or surgery.
Sounds viable and appears to have some studies to support its efficacy. I personally have not seen it done first hand, but the PT who mentioned it said it worked for that individual. She said they used a saline type solution.
My arbitrary opinion is that it probably wouldnt hurt to try.
Sounds viable and appears to have some studies to support its efficacy. I personally have not seen it done first hand, but the PT who mentioned it said it worked for that individual. She said they used a saline type solution.
My arbitrary opinion is that it probably wouldnt hurt to try.
ScottyDoc
Well-known member
Hey bud, thanks for the REPs, I hear you on the science, like I said in a previous post, it looks like some pretty solid stuff, definitely backed with science, which is what I like to see! I will even admit that is one of the biggest things I hate about my "Chiropractic" profession is I see way too many of my fellow Chiro's talking about the theory and the philosophy of Chiropractic, that is all fine and dandy, I learned that stuff in school too, but we have been around long enough and I know it works, but I want to see some hard-core scientific data to back up the theories and Philosophy, if people are getting better their has to be a scientific explanation, but just like everyone else... I WANNA SEE IT!!! And this is coming from both one who practices Chiropractic and is a believer in it! That is why most of the advice you will see me give, actually comes from my secondary certification in Physical Therapy (which I can only practice under my Chiropractic license) so just to be clear I am not a licensed Physical therapist, but can perform any and all physical therapy modalities I deem necessary in regards to the spine and over-all musculoskeletal injuries and health.
Also, you said you did some research on Prolotherapy, can you share some of this research, even if it is just posting a few links right here on this thread and if you have time, your synopsis/opinion on these articles in the links would also be helpful. Oh and please, please, please share any and all of your personal experiences if you undergo the treatments, because that is the kind of REAL-WORLD stuff everyone, including myself, likes to see on these types of threads!
Thank you again for your contribution!
windwords7
Well-known member
Scotty,
this site Invalid Link Removed is a good one and they also publish a journal. Though they are "selling" a service there the information seems very sound.
this site Invalid Link Removed is a good one and they also publish a journal. Though they are "selling" a service there the information seems very sound.
ScottyDoc
Well-known member
Wow, that was a very informative and accurate site as far as the anatomy is concerned and where the pain fibers are, etc. Honestly, it looks great, but also remember that it is a site for advertisement... hence the click here for an appointment. So before just jumping on the bandwagon, I would do a little more research as to some odds and percentages, any adverse effects, etc. OK, I found a good site for you, has a little bit of a poll, it appears to be some type of pain board, so here are some people telling you their actual results etc. I mean I didn't see anyone on there with a shoulder injury, but it appears to be working for the majority of people dealing with musculoskeletal injuries, not sure if it is a biased site or not, does not appear to be... Invalid Link Removed
Thanks for the link and I hope this additional information helps you in your decision... Honestly, based on what Bezoe had to say about it and what I have read thus far, I'm all for giving it a try, sounds like a better alternative to surgery! Check this out, I found something on gov.med another extremely non-biased reliable source and they think more studies need to be done in order to conclude its effectiveness at treating musculoskeletal injuries, but report it appears to have promising/positive results... Invalid Link Removed Good luck with your decision-making process, please share additional information you may find. Also, if you do under-go this treatment, please...please...please start a thread, or make a really good post describing your experiences with this process, even if it is right here on my thread, information is power Bro and this is the kind of stuff people need to know about and from real-life experience not just theoretical bull****. First hand testimonials are the BEST!
windwords7
Well-known member
Scotty, for sure on the site. They are selling but they are also forming the official organization around the therapy so I had to put their link up. My doctor is brilliant and he is the one who said we should do this if needed and that's all I needed to know for me to give this a go. Hands down, I am convinced that the science is solid, the user reports are consistent and positive and will employ this if needed! Have a great day everyone!
celc5
Well-known member
We are on the same page. I was thinking the same thing. :cheers:
ScottyDoc
Well-known member
Agreed, can't get much better than 3 different opinions all agreeing on the same thing!!!
ScottyDoc
Well-known member
Agreed... 1st-Hand experience is always the best!