The Matrix
Well-known member
If one has adrenal, low testosterone,neurotransmitters or other endocrine disorders it could potentially cause major havoc.
Have you ever have sleep apnea ruled out?
Rasie SHBG with T3, Unsupervised
- Thread starter JamieVegas
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If one has adrenal, low testosterone,neurotransmitters or other endocrine disorders it could potentially cause major havoc.
Have you ever have sleep apnea ruled out?
JamieVegas
New member
I have not had sleep apnea ruled out.
I have been on 25mcg of T3 for about two weeks. I have not noticed any change whatsoever in appetite (still completely absent), energy (still zero), or libido (still zero.)
I hoped it would at leasat **** something up. Even my body temperature is still normal.
I have been on 25mcg of T3 for about two weeks. I have not noticed any change whatsoever in appetite (still completely absent), energy (still zero), or libido (still zero.)
I hoped it would at leasat **** something up. Even my body temperature is still normal.
The Matrix
Well-known member
I have had several people on t3 only and alot of them had to discontinue it do side effects. Women are the worse because it decreases progesterone levels. In my experience people on t3 only may be 10% it may work for.
Gutterpump
Banned
What sort of sides were they experiencing? And at what dosages?
I know SHBG may rise, maybe only at higher doses though. I've been doing T3 solo for over a year to lower reverse t3. My SHBG has remained at 21 (it used to be 11 prior to starting TRT). My free T3 is at top of range. I'm Taking 10mcg sublingually 3x per day, spread out evenly before each major meal (b/l/d).
I know SHBG may rise, maybe only at higher doses though. I've been doing T3 solo for over a year to lower reverse t3. My SHBG has remained at 21 (it used to be 11 prior to starting TRT). My free T3 is at top of range. I'm Taking 10mcg sublingually 3x per day, spread out evenly before each major meal (b/l/d).
The Matrix
Well-known member
TO propely lower rt3 you identify the source of the stress then deal with it accordingly. We have moved away from t3 application unless there is a t4 only med. Since we have been focusing on identifying the root cause of the problem such as pain, emotional,biological imbalances or trama the out come has been more productive resulting in lowering of rt3 with out t3 intervention.
Gutterpump
Banned
For me I think it was definitely adrenal imbalances, and lots of stress in the past... years of it which I've put behind me
The Matrix
Well-known member
It takes time for the body to rebalance as well as providing the nutrients as well supporting metabolic pathways needed to make them bioavailable to the body.
jinxie
Well-known member
SHBG is not the end all, be all. It's protective, and slows metabolization of T, but also keeps free T lower (as well as DHT). Perhaps you need some more DHT, natural AI and should lower SHBG a little, as I recall.
jinxie
Well-known member
Red alert, buddy. Eating endless carbs can do this to the tris, along with predisposition. Your lipids need to be looked at pronto. Something is amiss.
jinxie
Well-known member
You have gotten very good advice from Matrix and GP.
SHBG is not going to fix you. And if it were that simple, Shippen and Crisler would have fixed you twice over. And now you are here, crusading for validation of your hypothesis, or some new idea. Come on bro.
I also just noticed that you 6'1" and weigh 155. What's up with that. I am wondering how you are eatting.
In any event, T3 aint going to do it, nor it getting your SHBG higher.
And I saw test over 700, with E2 at 44. What's the problem, that's plenty high test with your low SHBG. The problem seems to be E2, more likely. As GP suggested, aromasin. If that doesnt do it, consider Proviron for DHT punch.
jinxie
Well-known member
MB, you got yolked pretty damn young, inspite of some really low natural test production. Did you develop after TRT? Regardless, impressive at 20. I mean, you're almost as jacked as me, and I am twice your age, lol. That's a joke. Nice work. And good advice.
jinxie
Well-known member
Matrix, his lipids are awful. With VLDL that high, his LDL is probably around 140+ and his HDL below 30. It's not good. I called out this issue before, and am saying it again. Kid needs to get to a cardiologist. And I'd recommend a psychiatrist and a shrink, and I mean that with compassion. You are exposing a whole lot of baggage in this thread. Matrix has nailed that issue a few times.
You have a lot of bros hanging with you over a long thread. You have been well supported. Now listen to those who are supporting you, and take care of yourself. Abandon this misguided SHGB notion, and considering dumping your girlfriend. And eat boy, eat.
hardknock
Well-known member
I am a bit confused but this is interesting. You mentioned that you want your freet normal/high on some post yet you are stating that high freet would be detrimental to your sex drive. This is the confusing part for me.
Also is the reason you are trying toraise shbg is so that you natural freet can rise? But if raising shbg will cause Ft to rise wouldn't that also increase bound T? This seems like a definite chase here.
hardknock
Well-known member
Again lost here? Before we started working on children and when I was in my 20s I had to use at minimum 2 condoms or risk one bursting from being overfilled. 2 was a must and on occasion 3.
jinxie
Well-known member
I'm glad I missed that one. When I read overly graphic stuff like that from someone who already appears hysterical and in need of attention from an audience he doesn't even know, I think sexual confusion. But we're not sex counselors here, and this goes way beyond, "johnny won't rise to the occassion because of hormonal imbalances" and the like.
This guy is in good hands. I started off compassionate, LOL.
JamieVegas
New member
I'm saying that I want normal to high free T, but only if it is accompanied by normal to high total T. Without adequate SHBG, that is impossible; one will always be disproportionate to the other.
I'm trying to raise SHBG so that my natural T output will have to increase in order for my body to maintain it's preferred level of FT. It does not make very much T because too much of the T stays free.
I know other guys with this same issue, and they all have zero libido as well.
I appreciate the advice very much.
Interestingly, my thyroid panel and lipid panel flew right by Dr. John Crisler, Dr. Eugene Shippen, and a few local doctors. No one said anything about either of those things, so I always assumed that they were fine.
Of course I have psychological issues at this point -- I've lived 29 years without a working penis. It destroys every relationship I have. Yeah, I'm pretty ****ing pissed about it. Imagine that. No facial hair, no muscles and a penis that is worthless. Every day is a real "gift."
My point is that my anger and frustration are a symptom of the sexual dysfunction, rather than the sexual dysfunction being a symptom of the anger. My T was at 185 ng/dl at age 20 and younger. This problem is entirely congenital.
Awful lipids are a symptom/byproduct of untreated hypothyroidism. It is therefore possible that the T3/T4 treatment is genuinely going to solve the problem altogether.
jinxie
Well-known member
Jamie, I am staying out of the sexual stuff, as well as the SHGB and thyroid stuff, as I dont have anything to say that you want to here. I will reitterate that I dont think your SHGB is responsible, and Aromasin seems like a perfect trial, under supervision, and Proviron also seems worth a shot given symptoms.
As for lipids, please let me know your HDL cholestrol. I was mistaken I think. I think you can back into with total - LDL. Your LDL is too high, and your LDL is too low, but I agree with Matrix that overall is fine. I am concerned with LDL, VLDL and triglycerides and think you may have some sort of metabolic disorder, even though you are thin, too thin.
What is HA1C and fasting glucose? I think you said your insulin was normal, suggesting that you dont have an insulin resistance issue.
DragonRider
Active member
That is absolutely untrue. My last blood test had my total testosterone in the 700's, my free t over range and my SHBG at 11.
Everyone here has told him that. He can't hear it because he wants so desperately for that to be the answer to his problem. Looking for a medical diagnosis can be compared to conducting a criminal investigation. You have to keep an open mind. In a criminal investigation, if you decide that subject A is guilty, then you spend all of your time trying to prove subject A is guilty and you lose the ability to see the evidence against subjects B and C.
Jamie has decided that low SHBG is guilty of causing his problem and he can't see the possibility that something else is causing the problem and if anything low SHBG is a symptom, not a cause.
And Hypothyroidism can be a cause of low testoserone and sexual disfunction. They are all tied together. However, in your case at your weight, it is hard to believe you could possibly be hypothyroid. Maybe hyperthyroid!!!
The Matrix
Well-known member
When dealing with this type of case, I have fallen vicitim to this kind of behavior in the past. Some times this person has this concept and no matter how much a practioner tends to deviate from it they keep coming back to it. The client will keep leading you down the same pathway no matter what is recommended. If the practioner does not recognize this they will fall victim to manipulation of their patient or client. My concern more then anything is the lipids and how to deal with them. If you are not eating then this can cause your rt3 to go high. To me there is more then meets the eye here. The problem dealing with these cases is not getting the total picture. When I get the person on the phone or in the office, I start to probe to get more detailed answers. Alot of people are leaving out vital information which most likely has psychological roots as I have discovered majority of the time.
Jinixie good to have you back.
JamieVegas
New member
Ah, DragonRider and his excellent math skills again. You shouldn't be OVER the free T range if your total T is within normal range at 700ng/dl. You just demonstrated exactly what I was talking about. Your TT is good, but your FT is too high. The reason for this is that you have about half the SHBG you'd need to be genuinely balanced.
It's great if your body still feels good at this level, though. Mine does not. Everyone is different.
If you'd take the time to look at my blood test results, you would notice that I am nowhere near hyperthyroid. My TSH is slightly elevated, and both T3 and T3 are in the lower portions of the range. No definite hypothyroidism, but it could be one of the hard to diagnose cases of a body that requires a higher thyroid output, even though the numbers appear in the "normal" range.
I do understand that SHBG is sympotamitc of something else. That's a moot point. Even low testosterone is technically always symptomatic of something else. We still treat the T level directly by adding testosterone, don't we?
JamieVegas
New member
Nothing left out here. That's the whole story, and it has been consistent throughout my life no matter what my lifestyle is like. I have been on both ends of the spectrum -- a teenager that ate like crap (just like the rest of his friends at that age) and didn't excercise much, to a runner, to a weightlifter that ate 3000 calories a day, etc. Point is -- testosterone levels were always a terrible problem. I'm sure that lifestyle issues could improve the situation, but testosterone that is so incredibly low at age 19-20 really can't have much to do with lifestyle unless you're a drug user, overtraining, etc. I wasn't either of those. I lived the same lifestyle as every other kid that I knew.
DragonRider
Active member
I'm not looking at bloodwork as much as bodyweight. 155 pounds for someone 6'1" is like anorexic thin. I'm only 6' and I look anorexic at 205.
My point here is that hypothyroidism is usually accompanied by unexplained weight gain and hyperthyroidism is manefested as an inability to gain weight.
I quit worrying about my SHBG when my endo explained that low SHBG is just hereditaty in some people. I realized I need to poor my energy into those things I can do something about.
JamieVegas
New member
I've been on Arimidex, Clomid, Nolvadex, Proviron, HCG, Androgel, Testim, Pregenenelone, etc. Nothing improves the issues.
I have had a single fasting insulin/glucose test. Insulin was below the detectable range, and glucose was "normal." I have not had a 3 hour glucose tolerance test, which I believe is the more important test in my case.
I am 175lbs, not 155 as my sig suggests. The 155 is from when I abruptly stopped hormone therapy altogether.
I'll tell the story one more time. In high school, there were a lot of very skinny boys. I was one of them. However, in my junior year, the school nurse pulled me aside to mention that I had actually lost weight between my sophomore and junior years, which made no sense since I was so thin. I was approx. 130lbs. It was basically muscle wasting.
I ate whatever everyone else ate, without a care in the world -- a four course dinner from my family, milk/oj/cereal for breakfast, fries/soda/sandwich/cookies/etc. for lunch in the cafeteria. I had absolutely no concern about weight. I certainly didn't undereat. My afternoon snack was probably 2000 calories, alone. Yeah, I ate like ****, but so did everyone else I knew, and I was never fat, so I didn't care.
Anyway -- to boost my weight, I was sent to a nutritionist, who made me keep food logs. My diet switched to some high number of calories per day of pretzels, peanut butter, celery, broccoli, lean meat, oats, fruit, etc. After about a year, I had gone from 130lbs to 165lbs. There was a problem, however. It was exclusively fat. I developed a huge gut as if I were a beer drinker. I didn't give a ****, though. I was just happy to be heavier either way. Keep in mind that I was essentially force-eating by following her plan My genuine appetite was always very low.
I'm adopted, so I never knew my real family until last year. Turns out that my paternal line is just genetically verrrry thin. My father is 175lbs (my current weight) at 50+ years old and does not pay attention to his diet. He's about two inches taller than I am -- he's 6"2 or 6"3. He's self-conscious about how thin he is, but for some reason... he never tried to weightlift or anything. I did/do.
Eventually, after discovering the T problem in my 20's, I went on T therapy and began to lift weights. Around the age of 24, I successfully brought my weight up to 185lbs at 13% bodyfat. I was eating around 3800 calories per day.
My girlfriend convinced me to drop T (don't ask why) and I did. I dropped to about 175lbs. I moved to another state with her, and for that year, I didn't have time for any consistent gym work. I dropped yet another 10lbs somehow, falling to 155.
I dumped her, returned home, focused on my exercise regime again and got back up to 175 where I am now. It's a huge hassle to keep this weight up, because I have zero muscle tone from the low T, muscle builds extremely slowly for my family line, and my appetite is zero. I trudge through it, though, and try to stay focused on keeping my health up.
My libido has been basically the same from my early teens until now. Non-existant. It didn't matter wether or not I was running, lifting, a couch-potato, meat-free, lbs. of meat daily, carbs, no carbs, fat, no-fat, happy, sad, thrilled, in love, depressed, etc.
In fact, when I was my most muscular and at the healthiest I have ever been, my libido was at it's absolute lowest. That's why I decided to drop the hormone therapy. It genuinely made the situation worse. The only suspected culprit was the low SHBG, because it caused my T therapy to result in excess free T/E2/DHT, etc whenever we tried to raise total T. It basically made me high-T-resistant.
Matrix, I live in Philadelphia. If you want to get together for a quick beer/smoothie/steak or something (that's about all I afford right now) to ensure that I'm being honest here, I'd be thrilled. Or, maybe it'll be worth a few laughs to see a 29 year old that can't maintain an erection or grow a beard.
jinxie
Well-known member
Jamie, you can't have a conversation with someone who is insistent on having an answer that is really unknown and that can only be arrived at empirically -- it's all postulation at this point, and yours has proven incorrect THUS FAR. You continue to blame it all on SHBG. My last words to you will be a question (I will let you figure you whether it's rhetorical): HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT ELEVATING YOUR SHBG WILL BE THE ANSWER?
EasyEJL
Never enough
Of course, he doesn't know, but this is just part of the psychological issues. I still firmly believe that at some prior points in his treatment he was chemically capable of libido, but mental issues kept it from happening.
jinxie
Well-known member
This sort of behavior, on a public thread, directed to stranger bros is somewhat bizarre to me. I am all in for disclosing yourself, in an effort to getting good support and advice. But revealing so much, and then shunning all advice is, well, a waste of our time -- I will resist deconstructing the poor chap, further.
This guy remains me of some disgruntely patient of Dr. Mariano some years back, named James. Maybe it's the same guy. As I recall, Dr. Crisler fired him as a patient for piping off about his treatment criticism online -- it may have been the initial vetting of the issue which really burnt Dr. C, who is not known for his patienCe, LOL.
In any event, I should have resisted involvement after reading that he saw Drs. Shippen and Crisler. And it's not like this is such a complicated physiological issue such that there is a high likelihood that they were both off the mark.
In any event, I hope it gets better for the poor bloak. We all deserve happiness. And we are chiefly responsible for attaining it. (Even if that means taking Ostarine. Wink wink, nudge nudge, Easy E.) ; )
The Matrix
Well-known member
I think there just may be some mis wiring here or some genetic influence. Giving benefit of the doubt have you ever had catecholamines checked, lyme disease, heavy metals, or intestinal imbalances? If you eat and not absorbing properly you may have other issues which could be affecting your brain. There have been cases I have dealt with patients we tried to rule out every possible thing giving them the benefit of the doubt. There was just no medical justification for them so we refered them out for psyhcohlogical evaluation.
JamieVegas
New member
This is all a bit absurd. My contention is not that low SHBG is guaranteed to be the issue. It is simply that it's the only issue on my bloodwork that has not been addressed. Considering that I have been undergoing treatment for 10 years, it makes perfect sense that I'm adamant about leaving no stone unturned.
I do not know that it will be the answer. There are a high number of people on other boards who are non-responders to testosterone therapy and who have low SHBG. It seems to be the only thing in common amongst them. Youth is also a common theme. Low T, low SHBG, young age = non-responder, more often than not.
Basically, if I can elevate SHBG, I can maintain a mid-range TT level without sending FT into the stratosphere.
The only thing that is certain about my treatment is that my body keeps T very low for a reason. I have no idea what that reason is, but I do know that forcing extra T into the body simply makes me feel much worse. I'm not the only one.
It is just a theory, guys.
I hate to do it, but allow me to address the "desconstruction."
A) For the first 6 or so years of T therapy, I happily went along with whatever Dr. Crisler, Dr. Shippen, or the local endocrinologists suggested. Please note that they never mentioned anything about my lipids, anything about my ferritin, anything about SHBG, or anything else at all. (No, I have never been to Dr. Mairiano.)
B) I don't know why you bother with the moronic "psychological" dismissals. You understand that this is a theory I've had for only a year or two, and I've never really given it much until now that I've exhausted every other option that was offered to me.
C) Just a few have suggested that the libido issues are psychological. Considering that the primary gripe of TRT patients is moronic doctors that send them out the door with Viagra and Prozac even when they demonstrate low testosterone... holy **** you people are stupid. 185ng/dl at age 20, and you want to call is psychological? Really, just... wow. Don't waste the keystrokes. Go back to Googling bizarre chemicals you can take to get a better pump. It sounds like you're just butthurt that I'm not humoring your "d00d my **** worx even if I drinnk gasolein" drivel.
D.) I am appalled at the attitude around here that T is a cure-all. Some of us simply do not respond to "in range" T with instant boners.
E.) You all sound like you've been living in a cave. My experience is not unique. There are quite a number of guys around with the low SHBG = no libido issue. All of them are younger guys. T never helps. The issue is well researched and discussed. You've all been too busy pumping iron, having sex, and complaining about your bodyfat percentages to notice us.
Sorry to be rude, but it was called for by the few that brought out ad hominem attacks against a pretty simple theory. I don't have proof that raising SHBG will work. You don't have proof that it won't. Looks like we're both stubborn for supporting our cases, then.
JamieVegas
New member
That sounds like a much more reasonable hypothesis -- the genetic influence, anyway.
No, like I've said, the only thing that the doctors I've seen have suggested is raising testosterone higher and higher, and then testing to make sure the testosterone went higher and higher. That's it. That's the best care I've ever received. To be fair, Dr. Crisler ran a urinalysis and then told me he thought I might possibly have cancer based on the results. He also managed E2, which no one else bothered to do.
I've seen a number of stories identical to mine. Guys will have very sporadic libidos that last a few straight days. The problem is, after a few daily ejaculations, they reach complete sexual exhaustion that lasts for weeks at a time. That's what I experienced as a teen. As I got older, the exhaustion began to last longer until it became multiple weeks.
Shawn, you know, as well as I do, that there are plenty -- pleeennty -- of men for whom T therapy fails to restore libido. Sexual desire involves a complex chemical pathway, and requires a great deal of balance in the body. (Ahem, that's why I'm so interested in a more normal level of SHBG, but I'll let that go since this place seems to have hive mind syndrome. You win, bros!)
I can see where psychology might come into play. Older men, married men, religious people, abuse victims, men that are otherwise entirely healthy. etc... sure. I'm with you in those cases.
Not with teenage guys, though. Not in emotionless scenarios like watching porn or strip clubs. Not when it's so sporadic that they can enjoy an erection in Monday through Wednesday and then abruptly lose it for three straight weeks without anything changing in their lives. Especially not where hormones are entirely imbalanced, beard won't grow, and they exhibit every other physical symptom of clinical hypogonadism.
jinxie
Well-known member
Man oh man, you sure that E2 is under control? Joke.
In spite of the catastrophic outlook, you've been given plenty of good advice above.
Yeah, T therapy did fail, so it's time to move on. SHBG isn't going to make a difference. If you were at least feeling better at higher T levels, but metabolizing quickly such that you couldn't maintain those levels, that's a different story. You clinging to SHB in the face of so much counter evidence is, uh, irrational.
I seriously suggest a good psychopharmacologist and CBT, perhaps ACT-based. As for the cancer, that's scary and should be looked into, though I cant imagine Crisler dropping that on you and not direct urgent follow up.
I dont think you are getting what you want in this thread. You did have a lot of smart dudes working to help you. You just don't like the advice. And it's not group think. It's reasonable induction.
JamieVegas
New member
I did have it investigated by local doctors. They found nothing. The experience was pretty disturbing.
For the reasons stated above, I highly doubt it is psychological. Think about what you are suggesting here, first of all. What drugs even exist that could correct libido? There are none.
I can have occasional normal sexual experiences and they are unlinked to any change in mood, circumstances, etc. The problem is that I reach sexual exhaustion very, very early... and it lasts for an inordinate amount of time. Entirely physiological, I assure you.
I like the advice when it is related to extra testing. I'm taking a note of it. I keep mentioning, however, that I have no health insurance and can't pull that off right now. We don't know where I stand with E2, thyroid, insulin resistance, adrenal response, etc. All of these things will be tested soon.
Until then, and I can't stress this enough, I'm in a bit of emergency situation where I will do, literally anything, to have a workable libido. Hell, if I have to fake it with Caverject, I will. I just can't even get to a doctor to have it prescribed. Only things I have on hand are Androgel, T3, T4 and a vial of pure T/propylene glycol from Shippen. Oh, and some Cialis. (If only it were a vascular problem, I'd be set.)
This thread turned into general long-term advice, which is great, but not what I was going for at the start. I wanted to address the emergency issue. A quick fix that might work for a weekend and lose effectiveness. The quick fix (and I knew it was a long shot) was supposed to be T3. I only started battling because people didn't seem to understand why SHBG is even important.
DragonRider
Active member
Jamie I feel for you. I really do. I think you may be onto something with the testosterone non responder thought.
I am of the mind though I haven't seen proof yet, that some males have some type of testosterone resistance similar to insulin resistance in the diabetic. This doesn't just apply to HRT users as I have seen something similar among bodybuilders using above average doses. One user gets very strong and muscular off of 400mg per week while that next user doesn't get any affect at all. Those who benefit want to blame those who don't by accusing them of using fake gear or not having diets properly dialed in, but that's just because those who respond as predicted cannot grasp how someone else wouldn't respond the same way they do. But then I don't understand why I can use some antibiotics with no problem while the same antibiotic might kill someone else from an allergic reaction.
I am of the mind though I haven't seen proof yet, that some males have some type of testosterone resistance similar to insulin resistance in the diabetic. This doesn't just apply to HRT users as I have seen something similar among bodybuilders using above average doses. One user gets very strong and muscular off of 400mg per week while that next user doesn't get any affect at all. Those who benefit want to blame those who don't by accusing them of using fake gear or not having diets properly dialed in, but that's just because those who respond as predicted cannot grasp how someone else wouldn't respond the same way they do. But then I don't understand why I can use some antibiotics with no problem while the same antibiotic might kill someone else from an allergic reaction.
DragonRider
Active member
There is no doubt in my mind that your problem is physical, but Wellbutrin works very well for some men for sex problems by enhancing dopamine levels.
Bound testosterone is unusable testosterone.
jinxie
Well-known member
He's got the opposite problem, so he portrays it: Unbound test, and it had it solidly high with TT over 700 and a very high FT percent.
Yes, bupropion and deprenyl are worth exploration. The latter can increase dopamine. I would be looking at neurohormones.
At this juncture, given your expressed emotion, this is not purely physiological, even if it once were. Few things are once the brains gets strongly involved.
The Matrix
Well-known member
given the information I know of shbg I feel that in your case carb malabsorption and liver stagnation is the issue. Shbg rises and lowers in response to the liver triggered mainly by insulin. Dr j is great at hormones no doubt. Some times it's not hormones when you have insulin issues due to othern issues that need to be ruled out. There is a condition called Nash which may need to be futher checked into. Malfunctioning insulin seems to be the most likely culprit or severe thyroid resistance as shown shbg will not rise when given thyroid supplementation
JamieVegas
New member
Thank you for the support, Dragon.
I was actually on Wellbutrin for about six weeks, hoping to see some improvement. It didn't seem to work in that timeframe, however.
I have also tried a very brief trial of Seligine/l-deprenyl. I hardly remember the details. I only remember ordering it from IAS and using up the month or two worth of it when I was 22 or 23. I have also tried apomorphine, the European ED medication that works on the brain rather than bloodflow. (It failed in Europe due to the miserable success rate.)
What other neurohormones might you suggest? I have been considering L-Dopa or something that will actually increase dopamine rather than just inhibit the reuptake.
jinxie
Well-known member
I think Matrix's suggestion is something to look into, though what I can't understand is the releasing, becoming exhausted and then no being able to go again for days, and not having the libido to pursue, and why it is that it's confined to sex and orgasms. If it is largely chemical, that sounds like prolactin to me, which reinforces the only neurohormone to me, DOPA. But given your lack of supplementation, and the fact that I have to think that was tested early off, and you're not complaining of itchy nips or lactation, I don't think it's prolactin. Anyhow, DOPA is your pleasure center and your inspiration source, so that would be my focus. And even if it doesn't help you complained-of issue, it may help you emotionally.
This is an easy one ... green tea extract, morning and afternoon, 750 mgs - 1.5 grams of mucuna pruriens at night. And up to 12 mgs of melatonin, as tolerated. No L-DOPA, no dopamine agonists. Not yet. Plus 1 mg of Deprenyl could give it a nice kick in the ass. Or Rhodiola as natural MAO -- get good quality extract.
That's about all I can offer. I do hope you will consider some of the out of the box suggestions, as you are too young to be suffering, and I hate to see an obviously bright mind consumed by a problem, and fixated on resolving it through online research for lack of confidence in the medical system. I'd consider going back to Crisler if I were you; you'll just have to thicken up to the bedside manner, similar to mine, LOL.
Good luck.
JamieVegas
New member
Thank you. Please read this whole post. There's some interesting information for you at the bottom.
I had faith. At 23, I really thought Crisler would be my savior. He failed miserably, although I'll say he did more than most other doctors in terms of testing. My largest gripe with him was that he didn't bother to test if I were primary or secondary (I'm secondary.) He just went straight to T injections, which did me no good by completely shutting off LH. He never suggested testing for insulin resistance, never thought about investigating thyroid issues, etc. He just stuck a needle of T in me like he did with everyone else. Regarding E2, I was on Arimidex for almost the entire length of my treatment with Crisler, which was about 4 straight years.
Prolactin has always been in the lower half of the range. No one ever brought it up. I experimented with Dostinex/cabergoline for about a week when I was younger just to see if it would have any effect at all. None.
Supplementation-wise: I drink daily green (or white) tea and I also take a green tea extract (although it is only 250mg.) I take 5g of maca daily, along with 3g l-arginine, 1g l-tyrosine (for dopamine support), 3g l-carnitnie, 100mg r-ala, 5-19 iu vitamin D, and a few other things.
What's the purpose of the 12g melatonin? Is that for use in the daytime? I used to take 3g every night as a sleep aid for about 4 months. Obviously, that was a bad thing ("For occasional use only."), so I had to ween myself off of it. I wasn't waking up refreshed, although that certainly could have been due to other things.
Based on your recommendations, I'll up the GTE, order mucuna and as much of the other items as I can afford.
Regarding the sexual exhaustion, I once believed it to be depression related. When I was 15, I did go to therapy. CBT, in fact. I was feeling horrible and I had no idea why. There were no family, relationship, abuse, etc. issues whatsoever. I just woke up feeling like a wet rag each day. So, the school recommended that I see a psychiatrist. I never brought up the sex-issue, becasue I just assumed it was normal. At that age, I just thought every boy could only masturbate every 3-4 days.
CBT failed. Literally, they told me me there was nothing they could do from a talk-therapy standpoint. No 'thinking process' related issues were unveiled.
The medication kept coming, though. Prozac, Paxil, then Celexa. We then tried Luvox, Effexor and then Wellbutrin. They tried mixing Paxil with Lithium. Still nothing. All absolutely worthless.
By the time I was 20, one or two years after all of that, my problems started getting worse. My libido would die for weeks instead of days. At this point, I realized I was quite different from other males. I tried ordering junk supplements like "Horny Goat Weed." I considered that my reward circuits were just... genetically "broken." I tried d,l-phenylalanine and vitamin supplements to increase dopamine. Still nothing.
Finally, I started researching sexual dysfunction in young males, something I probably should have done earlier, but the Internet wasn't exactly what it was today 10 years ago. The most convincing possibility was hypothyroidism. I went to my doctor to ask for a thyroid test.
The results came back. He broke the news to me in this way: "Good news and bad news. The good news is -- your thyroid is absolutely fine. The bad news is -- your testosterone isn't. See here, the highlighted 185 ng/dl? That's low. Extremely low. I'm going to have to refer you to an endocrinologist."
I had never even considered the possiblity of low testosterone in the past. I felt a little embarrassed that it wasn't my first suspicion. I didn't even know males could be 'low.'
Suddenly, the past 6-7 years of feeling like ****, not gaining weight and not having a functioning penis made sense. Why hadn't the psychiatrists sent me to get checked out for a hormonal imbalance? Yep, I was pissed... and rightly so. The real problem, diagnosed at 20, should have been discovered much earlier. All signs were there.
Two years later, after Androgel failed to produce any benefit, I got a PM on an excercise related website about a user named SWALE who was an ex-steroid abuser, and had just got his DO license and was dispensing "alternative" forms of testosterone therapy to young men like myself. To those of you who are new to the world of 'the boards,' that user was none other than Dr. John Crilser. He directed me to his website, I signed up with ATM, and so began my adventure...
jinxie
Well-known member
Jamie, you've felt like a wet rag since you were 15, somewhere along the line you began to feel worse sexually (or you just realized it more), and things just continue to get worse. Why you think that relates to test or SHGB beats me.
And based on the initial blood work I saw, you are not hypogonadal, primary or secondary. Your free T is close to twice what mine was, and I am secondary. (And if you are secondary, hCG or Clomid should do you well, and all hope is not lost.)
While I am concerned for your well being, you are barking up the wrong tree, and as you invest more time and energy in these avenues, you are only going to become more disenchanted. Maybe you can get a referral to Mayo Clinic.
Good luck. I keep getting pulled back in, but I am finished here. There's nothing more I can say. Hang tough.
JamieVegas
New member
Your response was offensively ill-informed.
... or, you're insane. 185ng/dl is clinical hypogonadism. The minimum normal range for that lab was 260, and I was only 20 years old. Perhaps the labs from when I was on T-injections confused you?
You don't understand how teenage hypogonadism might translate into feeling like a wet rag every day? Do you realize how stupid that makes you sound to a board full of men who have testosterone issues? You are genuinely the biggest crackpot I've ever spoken to on an HRT related messageboard.
It's common for people with T issues not to respond to HRT with increased libido if something else in the system is awry. You'd get pummeled on any other HRT messageboard that I know of for spouting off CBT references.
If my T level isn't affecting how I feel or my sex drive, then this entire subforum might as well just close up shop. I probably have the lowest levels of anyone here. Half of you people are not even clinical and are bitching about being "low normal."
... or, you're insane. 185ng/dl is clinical hypogonadism. The minimum normal range for that lab was 260, and I was only 20 years old. Perhaps the labs from when I was on T-injections confused you?
You don't understand how teenage hypogonadism might translate into feeling like a wet rag every day? Do you realize how stupid that makes you sound to a board full of men who have testosterone issues? You are genuinely the biggest crackpot I've ever spoken to on an HRT related messageboard.
It's common for people with T issues not to respond to HRT with increased libido if something else in the system is awry. You'd get pummeled on any other HRT messageboard that I know of for spouting off CBT references.
If my T level isn't affecting how I feel or my sex drive, then this entire subforum might as well just close up shop. I probably have the lowest levels of anyone here. Half of you people are not even clinical and are bitching about being "low normal."
jinxie
Well-known member
Sorry if I was mistaken about your totat t score. I thought it was lower range with solid, mid range FT. But whatever, the same applies. Clearly it's not Testosterone related, or at least primarily, as you didn't feel any better with solid levels. You're just flat ass wrong about SHGB -- the fact you are metabolizing it quickly would not prevent you from enjoying the effects; indeed the converse is true. Shippen often treats his clients with Danazol to get their SHGB lower, so they can feel the effects.
I'm not going to respond to the rest of your message, as your opinion of me is wholly irrelevant. You are the one that asked for help.
JamieVegas
New member
If you thinking "helping" involves claiming that clinical hypogonadism in a male's teenage years won't make him feel like a wet rag, then I do not want help from you. You're either too uninformed or to unintelligent to be worthwhile.
Adding testostone is not an instant cure, so there is no "clearly" about it. If it was so simple, we wouldn't even have messageboards like this. We'd all just take T and feel great.
I gave up talking about SHBG here. There are many, many men with incurably low libido who are on testosterone therapy. They're all very young and they all have low SHBG. It is true that none of us have the answer, but screw you for interfering with an attempt to find one.
One of them that I've been talking to has actually given up masturbation altogether. It's the only way he live without feeling like ****. He's ****ing 19.
Since they don't hang around this particular board, and I can see why, you're thinking I'm just like another one of you weird-ass muscleheads who want an oak tree boner and the lowest bodyfat possible. I'm one of the genuinely hypogonadal people for whom muscle and a libido is a ****ing dream.
Good riddance. Go back to taking pictures of your back muscles, while pretending to understand what having a REAL androgen problem is like, and hanging out on Internet messageboards for no good reason other than that you're obsessed with yourself.
EasyEJL
Never enough
Jamie, why don't you just stick to those other boards then ? You didn't start this thread looking for help, you started hoping that you'd find people to say "yes Jamie, that's a great idea!" And since you didnt get that, you've refused to listen to anyone's advice, and have started getting nasty. That doesn'tsuit the nature of Anabolic Minds.
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