2 Year Shut Down - Torem showed hope for 3 days (help!)

manolox

New member
I’ll try to make this short.

After a PCT went wrong I’ve been shut down for two years. These have been the worst years of my life and I tried everything except going back to research chemicals. I tried exercise, good diet, a brief trt with an urologist that only made things worst. My sex life completely disappeared.
So, last week I decided to give research chemicals another shot. A friend recommended toremifene and aromasin in the following dosage:

TOREM - 120 (3 days) 90/90/60/30
AROMASIN – 12.5 EOD

Other OTC things I’m taking are macca, tribulus, l-carnitine, multivitamins and ZMA.

So I take 120mg of Torem the first day (no aromasin that day) around 6pm and behold, a few hours later I get the best hard on I ever got in two years. I thought “I’m cured, my **** is back, Torem is the ****” and proceeded to masturbate about 6 times. I know I’m not supposed to masturbate during PCT but you have to understand where I’m coming from.

Next day things change and I’m back to my no-libido self, I get worried. Then I repeat the dosage that night, my balls start to hurt and my **** comes back with another decent erection. This happened for the first 3 days, night good - day bad. After day 4, my nipples and my balls started hurting like crazy and then I’m back to my old self. No libido, no decent erections and to make things worst my sperm turns all clear and liquidy. Today I’m on day 5 (90mg) and still the same problems.

So what happened on those first 3 days that is not happening now??? Was it the 120mg??? Isn’t that supposed to be too much? Should I remove the aromasin or increase its dosage? What should I do different considering that I’m not coming from a cycle but from a 2 year shut down? I’m I worrying too soon and should wait?

Please, I could use some help around here. These 2 years have been terrible and those first 3 days with Torem gave me hope.

One other thing is that I should receive Sustain Alpha next week together with testojack200, fenugreek and ICariin. Should I take those, will they help?????

Thanks
 
manolox said:
I’ll try to make this short.

After a PCT went wrong I’ve been shut down for two years. These have been the worst years of my life and I tried everything except going back to research chemicals. I tried exercise, good diet, a brief trt with an urologist that only made things worst. My sex life completely disappeared.
So, last week I decided to give research chemicals another shot. A friend recommended toremifene and aromasin in the following dosage:

TOREM - 120 (3 days) 90/90/60/30
AROMASIN – 12.5 EOD

Other OTC things I’m taking are macca, tribulus, l-carnitine, multivitamins and ZMA.

So I take 120mg of Torem the first day (no aromasin that day) around 6pm and behold, a few hours later I get the best hard on I ever got in two years. I thought “I’m cured, my **** is back, Torem is the ****” and proceeded to masturbate about 6 times. I know I’m not supposed to masturbate during PCT but you have to understand where I’m coming from.

Next day things change and I’m back to my no-libido self, I get worried. Then I repeat the dosage that night, my balls start to hurt and my **** comes back with another decent erection. This happened for the first 3 days, night good - day bad. After day 4, my nipples and my balls started hurting like crazy and then I’m back to my old self. No libido, no decent erections and to make things worst my sperm turns all clear and liquidy. Today I’m on day 5 (90mg) and still the same problems.

So what happened on those first 3 days that is not happening now??? Was it the 120mg??? Isn’t that supposed to be too much? Should I remove the aromasin or increase its dosage? What should I do different considering that I’m not coming from a cycle but from a 2 year shut down? I’m I worrying too soon and should wait?

Please, I could use some help around here. These 2 years have been terrible and those first 3 days with Torem gave me hope.

One other thing is that I should receive Sustain Alpha next week together with testojack200, fenugreek and ICariin. Should I take those, will they help?????

Thanks
Click to expand...

stop messin with shady research chemicals

get some bloodwork, dont play god, let a doctor help you

you may need to see a few doctors to get what will work for you

imo, you need some type of hcg clomid?/ai combo

if the damage done isnt fixable, trt may be the only way
 
swollen87 said:
stop messin with shady research chemicals
Click to expand...

Thanks for your response. I never mentioned they were shady. They are from a respected company and have worked for other people.

Although you are right about the bloodwork, however, I already visited a doctor once who gave me Test cyp and just gave me gyno. Right now I can't afford a doctor.

The Torem definitely triggered something those first 3 days that was working really well and that's the basis of my post.
 
manolox said:
Thanks for your response. I never mentioned they were shady. They are from a respected company and have worked for other people.

Although you are right about the bloodwork, however, I already visited a doctor once who gave me Test cyp and just gave me gyno. Right now I can't afford a doctor.

The Torem definitely triggered something those first 3 days that was working really well and that's the basis of my post.
Click to expand...

imo, any research chemicals(liquids you buy off the internet) are shady... reguardless whether they worked for someone else or not... any time i use a serm or an ai, its the same one you would buy from the pharmacy.

if you cant afford 188 dollar insurance plus another 50 60 for an office visit you shouldnt be ordering research chems someone might have made in their sink.

but if youve been shut down for 2 years, hcg clomid/nolva with an ai should help...
@what dosage im not sure about hcg (i posted something someone in a simmilar situation had used)

hcg-1000 iu 2x a week
clomid-100/100/50/50
nolva-40/40/20/20
aromasin-12.5 eod like you have


have you tried d-aspartic-acid? im sure it could help.

but for serious, get bloodwork man
 
I agree. Pharm tabs are so easy to get, I don't know why ppl still order research chemicals. They're just as illegal unless you have an actual research lab.

And WHY in the world haven't you seen a doctor yet?... get some insurance if you don't have any, and go see an endocrinologist or someone....
 
I don't think HCG is going to fix your problem (it will help temporarily, but not permanently). Also, Aromasin can very well affect your sex drive. If it were me (and definitely get a second opinion on this), I would drop the Aromasin, and use the Torem @ 120-90-60-30 (you're estrogen is probably low right now, so we need to get that back up to normal levels, as well as your testosterone). If you can get clomid, it may be better as far as rebooting your testosterone production than toremifene, but I'm not sure about that. Libido is a function of multiple hormonal ratios, and if they are out of balance, your libido can be affected. Further on down the PCT, if you start getting estro sides, you can throw in a mild AI at a low enough dose to control those sides, and then taper down as you get closer to the end of your PCT (Formestane works very well for me). I definitely recommend blood work though, so that we know where you stand hormonally. It really does make a difference, and without that, we're all just speculating. I'd like to refer you to this sticky in the anabolics section about getting cheap bloodwork (which has worked great for me): http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/157529-cheap-bloodwork-how.html. Do this, and report back with the results.
--Brian
 
gaijininjapan said:
I agree. Pharm tabs are so easy to get, I don't know why ppl still order research chemicals. They're just as illegal unless you have an actual research lab.

And WHY in the world haven't you seen a doctor yet?... get some insurance if you don't have any, and go see an endocrinologist or someone....
Click to expand...
I don't know why people assume their pharm tabs are legit either! Most are made in Pakistan/India etc. (even if they say different). Just look at research done on these pills (some even contain toxic chemicals), not to mention most are scams and steal your credit card info, sell your email address, steal your identity, and more! I'll stick with my research chems, as I just don't trust any of these other sources AT ALL (I trust my research chems SLIGHTLY more than the pharm tabs).
 
diablosho said:
I don't know why people assume their pharm tabs are legit either! Most are made in Pakistan/India etc. (even if they say different). Just look at research done on these pills (some even contain toxic chemicals), not to mention most are scams and steal your credit card info, sell your email address, steal your identity, and more! I'll stick with my research chems, as I just don't trust any of these other sources AT ALL (I trust my research chems SLIGHTLY more than the pharm tabs).
Click to expand...

The same can be said for research chems, with inaccurate dosage, contaminates, etc. But hey, that's the game we play here isn't it. GEtting AAS from UL's is also the same. But oh well. To each their own.
 
Too true! I was just saying that no matter WHAT route we take, there are no assurances. I just wish there was a way to test my research chems to see if they are bunk or dosed properly.
 
I would stay on the Torem at 90 for a couple more weeks, and drop the aromasin.

SERMS have long half lives, and build up...stay the course.

Consider adding 3g of DAA for 2-3 weeks as well.
 
TEST RESULTS ARE IN.
Just so you know I'm on my 4th week of Torem taking 60 e/d. Not taking anything else other than natural supplements and sustain alpha. My libido still down and no decent erections.

I'm 30 years old. 5'9". 196lbs.

(test) (results) (units) (interval)

Testosterone, Serum 633 ng/dL 249-836
Testosterone,Free 18.29 ng/dL 5.00-21.00
% Free Testosterone 2.89 % 1.50-4.20
Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) 431 ng/dL 31-701
LH,s 11.5 high mIU/mL 1.7-8.6
FSH, serum 6.9 mIU/mL 1.5-12.4
Prolactin 9.0 ng/mL 4.0-15.2
Estradiol 33.5 pg/mL 7.6-42.6

LIPID PANEL
Cholesterol, Total 189 mg/dL 100-199
Triglycerides 143 mg/dL 0-149
HDL Cholesterol 46 mg/dL >39
VLDL Cholesterol Cal 29 mg/dL 5-40
LDL Cholesterol Calc 114 High mg/dL 0-99

CBC WITH DIFFERENTIAL/PLATELET
WBC 5.9 x10E3/uL 4.0-10.5
RBC 5.65 High x10E6/uL 4.10-5.60
Hemoglobin 15.9 g/dL 12.5-17.0
Hematocrit 47.4 % 36.0-50.0
MCV 84 fL 80-98
MCH 28.1 pg 27.0-34.0
MCHC 33.5 g/dL 32.0-36.0
RDW 13.4 % 11.7-15.0
Platelets 244 x10E3/uL 140-415
Neutrophils 52 % 40-74
Lymphs 33 % 14-46
Monocytes 11 % 4-13
Eos 4 % 0-7
Basos 0 % 0-3
Neutrophils (Absolute) 3.1 x10E3/uL 1.8-7.8
Lymphs (Absolute) 1.9 x10E3/uL 0.7-4.5
Monocytes(Absolute) 0.6 x10E3/uL 0.1-1.0
Eos (Absolute) 0.3 x10E3/uL 0.0-0.4
Baso (Absolute) 0.0 x10E3/uL 0.0-0.2
Immature Granulocytes 0 % 0-1
Immature Grans (Abs) 0.0 x10E3/uL 0.0-0.1

COMP. METABOLIC PANEL
Glucose, Serum 93 mg/dL 65-99
BUN 20 mg/dL 6-20
Creatinine, Serum 1.05 mg/dL 0.76-1.27
eGFR >59 mL/min/1.73 >59
BUN/Creatinine Ratio 19 8-19
Sodium, Serum 140 mmol/L 135-145
Potassium, Serum 4.5 mmol/L 3.5-5.2
Chloride, Serum 101 mmol/L 97-108
Carbon Dioxide, Total 25 mmol/L 20-32
Calcium, Serum 9.0 mg/dL 8.7-10.2
Protein, Total, Serum 7.1 g/dL 6.0-8.5
Albumin, Serum 4.6 g/dL 3.5-5.5
Globulin, Total 2.5 g/dL 1.5-4.5
A/G Ratio 1.8 1.1-2.5
Bilirubin, Total 0.5 mg/dL 0.0-1.2
Alkaline Phosphatase, S 87 IU/L 25-150
AST (SGOT) 25 IU/L 0-40
ALT (SGPT) 33 IU/L 0-55

THATS IT!!!
Unfortunately I couldn't get the GnRH test.

Your help will be extremely appreciated. Thank You
 
I don't really see anything off with those results (I'd work on my Lipids though). Can you restate your LH though. I noticed it is off the scale on the high side by what you wrote, but you didn't state it was high like you did with your LDL, so I was just checking. If those values are correct, it certainly appears your body is trying to make as much testosterone as possible. So, as far as the HPT Axis is concerned, at least they're working. It seems it's just taking a while, but I would stay on the Torem, and get labs again in a few weeks, and see what your test/estradiol does. If they stay about the same, then I'd consider tapering off the Toremifene over the next 4 weeks, to allow your estradiol to slowly drop down to normal (make sure to check labs 2 weeks in on the down-taper to watch your hormones-test should fall a little, as well as estradiol). You may want to have an AI on hand, just in case. Either way, this problem is pretty perplexing, and most of what I say is merely what I would do. I am in no way qualified to make suggestions of this ilk, and I would make sure to get other people's opinions before doing anything, as I am fairly new to this game as well. Good luck, and please keep us informed, as this seems to be a very good learning experience for all of us!
--Brian
 
Sorry, it was marked as high

LH 11.5 High mIU/mL 1.7-8.6

Thank you.

Would you consider adding DAA? What can I do about my lipids?
 
manolox said:
Sorry, it was marked as high

LH 11.5 High mIU/mL 1.7-8.6

Thank you.

Would you consider adding DAA? What can I do about my lipids?
Click to expand...
Eating healthy, cardio, and soluble fiber will help lipids, as will time away from hormonals (and things that are in common cycle assist products). I really don't know anything about DAA, but at this point, I would keep things as SIMPLE AS POSSIBLE! I would only use the Toremifene (assuming it's even legit) and cycle assist (for the liver/lipid support contained within), and MAYBE a test booster. That's it. As you start coming off the toremifene, do it slowly to avoid gyno. If any puffyness starts, use an ai. Oh, and I just wanted to make sure, but you are NOT using hcg correct? If you could, make a list of everything you put in your body (supplement wise) and any transdermals/injections. This will help!
--Brian
 
Ok, this is what I'm putting in my body.

The TOREM, right now 4th week at 60 ed. Next week will be my final at 30 ed. Should I taper down further?

Additionaly:
-Sustain Alpha (for a week now)
-Liver Juice
-Macca
-TestoJack200
-Icariin
-Fenugreek
-Multivitamins
-B complex
-ZMA before bed
-Omega 3
-D vitamin
-E vitamin
-C vitamin for cortisol control 2g ed.

I have the aromasin on hand but haven't used it other than the first week. I have some fat content around my nipple area, how can I effectively tell if gyno occurs under that fat?
 
Well, you could taper off now, I suppose. I personally prefer formestane as my AI of choice, as I have bloodwork showing it dropping my estradiol in half over 1 week. I've never tried aromasin, so I can't comment on how quickly it takes effect, but I know formestane is very quick. I don't really see a problem with any of the supps you're taking right now, but I would say, stop taking anything for libido problems. That way you'll know when you're better! Just watch your estradiol, and I would highly recommend another blood test in the near future (2 weeks or so), and compare results.
 
diablosho said:
I don't think HCG is going to fix your problem (it will help temporarily, but not permanently). Also, Aromasin can very well affect your sex drive. If it were me (and definitely get a second opinion on this), I would drop the Aromasin, and use the Torem @ 120-90-60-30 (you're estrogen is probably low right now, so we need to get that back up to normal levels, as well as your testosterone). If you can get clomid, it may be better as far as rebooting your testosterone production than toremifene, but I'm not sure about that. Libido is a function of multiple hormonal ratios, and if they are out of balance, your libido can be affected. Further on down the PCT, if you start getting estro sides, you can throw in a mild AI at a low enough dose to control those sides, and then taper down as you get closer to the end of your PCT (Formestane works very well for me). I definitely recommend blood work though, so that we know where you stand hormonally. It really does make a difference, and without that, we're all just speculating. I'd like to refer you to this sticky in the anabolics section about getting cheap bloodwork (which has worked great for me): http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/157529-cheap-bloodwork-how.html. Do this, and report back with the results.
--Brian
Click to expand...


This thread came up in a search I did, and this line caught my eye, and has me curious. Any specific reason for thinking that?
 
MakaveliThaDon said:
This thread came up in a search I did, and this line caught my eye, and has me curious. Any specific reason for thinking that?
Click to expand...
I've heard that clomid is better at stimulating lh release than other SERMs (or at least Nolvadex, hence why many people use BOTH nolva and clomid together during PCT-nolva for breast protection/clomid for test restoration), thus raising testosterone levels faster. I have no evidence of this being the case, but it was just some information for the o.p. to look in to.
 
The Toremifene has obviously worked for me here as you can see in the lab results. One year ago my test was in 286 and now is 633.

The bloodwork looks promising the problem is that I still have libido problems...
 
BuzzLightyear said:
So...you're not shut down at all, you've just got a low libido?
Click to expand...

I WAS shutdown for two years, believe me. Although the bloodwork looks good I still have a long way to go. My 6 week cycle ends this week; I will have another blood test in about four weeks and see how is my system working on its own.

If the libido and ED problems still persist I will have to go to the doctor and check for other problems.
 
Torem is awesome stuff ... I'm thinking about doing one cycle a year of just that. But ... I'm still having a problem believing that it increased your test levels that much.

But whatever - good news is good news!

I don't know how you have low libido ... well you could try some Formestane or maybe some Erase ... but ...
 
Actually, estrogen is an important component in libido as well. There is a optimal ratio of hormones that will provide the strongest libido (that ratio may differ on an individual basis). When I use formestane (which works VERY well), my libido crashes, even at 4 pumps per day (2 am/2 pm). Within a week (usually 2 days), my libido comes ROARING back! Could be due to some SHBG modulating effects, or perhaps DHT inhibition, but either way, it happens! So, I suggest just getting your hormones back into homeostasis, and once you stop using everything, your libido should return. I am glad to see the O.P. doing regular blood tests though, as that helps to remove the guesswork from the equation.
 
Your bloodwork looks fine, your torem is definately legit considering the high LH... I would drop the torem and continue a low dose of aromasin for a couple weeks to make sure estrogen doesn't spike.

Libido is dependent on many things, not just testosterone and other hormones. Dopamine and various neurotransmitters prob have a larger effect actually. Look into some supplements that help stimulate dopamine secretion possibly. Stress and other lifestyle factors play a major role too. Are you sleeping enough, diets in check, stressed at work etc...

Also, it can be mental as well... if your freaked out every time you don't wake up with morning wood, then you could be psyching yourself out.

Come off the SERM and get more blood work in a month to see where you testosterone levels out at, b/c it will prob drop some after stopping torem.
 
manolox said:
I WAS shutdown for two years, believe me. Although the bloodwork looks good I still have a long way to go. My 6 week cycle ends this week; I will have another blood test in about four weeks and see how is my system working on its own.

If the libido and ED problems still persist I will have to go to the doctor and check for other problems.
Click to expand...


So you did a 6 week torem cycle? At what dosages?
 
mmaz03 said:
Any final updates? A friend is experiencing a similar thing, but is wary about using RC's -- worried about the "quality". I'm sure most are though.
Click to expand...

Well, I'm done with the cycle and I'm waiting patiently. I will have more bloodwork done in about 4 weeks to see how I have progressed.

I understand the concern about research chems but judging by my bloodwork and progress these definitely did something.

As far as how I feel I can tell you that my libido is decent but my erections vary from day to day. I am able to perform decently with the help from viagra but I'm still not a 100%.

I will follow up after the bloodwork.
 
manolox said:
Well, I'm done with the cycle and I'm waiting patiently. I will have more bloodwork done in about 4 weeks to see how I have progressed.

I understand the concern about research chems but judging by my bloodwork and progress these definitely did something.

As far as how I feel I can tell you that my libido is decent but my erections vary from day to day. I am able to perform decently with the help from viagra but I'm still not a 100%.

I will follow up after the bloodwork.
Click to expand...

From the sound of it, it seems you've bounced back pretty well. Don't worry about the libido too too much. Sometimes paranoia about sides can contribute (but is not the sole contributor) to the symptoms you are experiencing. I am sure not worrying is a lot easier said than done though. Best of luck.
 
I haven't picked up DAA. I will stay away from chemicals right now. Let's see how will my body react on its own. I'm just going with Macca and ICariin for now.
 
"Well I'm suffering from a serious problem of libido six months after the end of my last cycle.

I'm 28 and last year I did three small cycles.

DECEMBER 2009
I made my first small cycle of four weeks (250mg of sustanon per week). Enough for my testicles decreases, increase my libido and gaining some muscles.
After 3 weeks, I took a box of clomid, 100mg for 3 days and 4 mg for 4 days. It was enough for my testicles return to normal and my libido
remain high.

APRIL / MAY 2010
Excited with the results of the first round, made another of 6 (250mg of sustanon per week) weeks followed by 6 weeks of 30mg oxandronola.
After 21 days, I took a box of clomid, 100mg for 3 days and 4 mg for 4 days. My testicles back and libido also remained normal for a time.

Until around the end of July (two months after the end of the cycle) I felt a decrease in libido. I just do not associate with AEs and associated change of
brand of finasteride.

AUGUST / SEPTEMBER 2010
Even with the libido a bit lower than normal, on 23/08 I started another cycle, this time Enanthate Testosterone and stanozolol 40mg/day orally.

Were 6 weeks, 600mg of enanthate in the first 4 weeks and 300mg in the last two.
This time, I felt a drop in libido already halfway through the cycle which made me suspect that the enanthate was false. But I was gaining strength and my testicles atrophying which indicated it was not.
I finished the cycle and 27.9 after 2 weeks I took three boxes of clomid, taking 12 days and 6 days 50mg 100mg. I took 10mg of tamoxifen together and also 2250mg Tribullus Terrestris per day.

The testicles returned to normal but still no libido. I was desperate. I then decided to stop by Finasteride know that in some cases it really causes a drop. To my surprise after three days my libido was high again.
I was happy, but that only lasted 10 days, then fell again and even then not reestablished.

Exam with a urologist in November 2010:

Testo total: 943.
Normal adult male: between 241 and 827.

Testo free: 187
Normal adult male, between 34 and 246.

Examination with an endocrinologist in March 2011:

Total testosterone:
537.02 ng / dl
(Reference 241 to 827 ng / dl)

Free testosterone:
11.20 ng / dl
(Reference 3.8 to 18.4 ng / dl)

LH:
1.81 mIU / ml
(Reference 1.5 to 9.3 mIU / ml)

FSH:
1.1 mIU / ml
(Reference 1.4 to 18.1 mIU / ml)

TSH:
1:58 mcUI / ml
(0:35 to 5:50 REFERENCES mcUI / ml)

Prolactin:
6.25 ng / dl
(Reference 2.1 to 17.7 ng / ml)

Estradiol:
30.2 pg / ml
(Reference 11.6 to 41.2 pg / ml)

SDHEA:
279.00 mcg / dl
(Reference 80 to 560 mcg / dl)

SHBG:
34.10 nmol / L
(Reference 13 to 71 nmol / L)

As you can see, now my total testosterone is much lower than the examination of novembro/2010 and LH and FSH levels are extremely low.

What do you suggest? Is there a solution? I can not get erections or with only remedies for erectile dysfunction.

I'm desperate and very depressed. "
 
I dont understand you did 100mg then did 4mg? do you mean 40? or 50? i would have done clomid 100 week 1 then 50 mg for 21 more days (3 weeks)
 
your shut down 4 2years

how did that happen?
i no pct is v important,, so i take it u did not do 1 ?
what do you mean by it went wrong,,
as in you did pct but it did not work?

what were you running on the cycle??

i no people in my gym who have done cycles with no pct and keeped at least half gains,, i would never do a cycle with out pct,,

just interested in how it went wrong ,, hope u get back 100 percent man
 
thebiggerpict said:
your shut down 4 2years

how did that happen?
i no pct is v important,, so i take it u did not do 1 ?
what do you mean by it went wrong,,
as in you did pct but it did not work?

what were you running on the cycle??

i no people in my gym who have done cycles with no pct and keeped at least half gains,, i would never do a cycle with out pct,,

just interested in how it went wrong ,, hope u get back 100 percent man
Click to expand...

You do alot of texting, don't you??
 
My libido was pretty weak after torem but my test levels through the roof. I run USP Labs Powerfull.. brings my wood and libido back like no other. Only thing that works for me honestly lol.
 
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