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First time user-HCG(help)

tuRkx

Member
Im coming off my first long injectable cycle.Ive been on cycle for 15 weeks now(test P,tren ace)been off tren for the past 3 weeks and been running just test P,i have 2 shots(test) left and im doing my first shot of HCG tonight.I was reading along this thread on here that it is not good to use HCG alone for the PCT because it can shut you down more. Is it okay to run hcg along with test for the next week,and just hcg alone for the following week till I start nolva?. I have 3 weeks worth of HCG.


Any help is appreciated,
 
well, you shoulda started HCG a long time ago , but since u didn't we really can't harp on that right now. but i can say tren for that long is insane. and if it was ur first time using it, ur in for a hard recovery. i honestly think u might be passed using hcg at this point. two shots left and then going into pct? seems worthless. i know people who use it during pct, but i honestly do not like that. hcg should've been pinned 250iu 2x a week while u were on cycle for probably the last half of the cycle. i hope you have one killer pct planned...
 
I believe he has 2 weeks left until PCT.
If so, he can get in 7-8 HCG shots EOD 500iu a piece and get full or near full testicular mass.
 
I believe he has 2 weeks left until PCT.
If so, he can get in 7-8 HCG shots EOD 500iu a piece and get full or near full testicular mass.

yeah he has two weeks, but 500iu eod, i dk just seems like a higher probability of backlash during pct if he's using that dosage for a short amount of time.
 
yeah he has two weeks, but 500iu eod, i dk just seems like a higher probability of backlash during pct if he's using that dosage for a short amount of time.

What type of backlash?
If he uses an AI there wont be excess estro.
If his testos come back fully, they arent going to atrophy right away when he comes off an uses a SERM.

I have seen people use this HCG protocol on cycle and recover just as fine as if they had used 250iu 2x per week the whole cycle..
 
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By Eric M. Potratz

Eric M. Potratz has developed his education in the field of endocrinology and performance enhancement through years of research, counseling, and real world experience. Over the past five years he has been a private consultant for hundreds of athletes and bodybuilders alike, and is the founder & president of Primordial Performance.

Post-Cycle-Therapy is a must upon cessation of steroid use. Many great Post Cycle Therapy protocols have been outlined over the years, and many individuals have had success with following such protocols. Nevertheless, what works can always work better, and I intend to show you the most effective way to recover from AAS. This is especially the case for those that have had a lack of success following popular advice. In this article I will address the misunderstanding and misuse of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) and show you the most efficient way to use hCG for the fastest and most complete recovery.

HCG unraveled -

Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) is a peptide hormone that mimics the action of luteinizing hormone (LH). LH is the hormone that stimulates the testes to increase testosterone levels. (1) More specifically LH is the primary signal sent from the pituitary to the testes, which stimulates the leydig cells within the testes to produce testosterone.

When steroids are administered, LH levels rapidly decline. The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the testes to stop producing testosterone, which causes rapid onset of testicular degeneration. The testicular degeneration begins with a reduction of leydig cell volume, and is then followed by rapid reductions in intra-testicular testosterone (ITT), peroxisomes, and Insulin-like factor 3 (INSL3) - All important bio-markers and factors for proper testicular function and testosterone production. (2-6,19) However, this degeneration can be prevented by a small maintenance dose of hCG ran throughout the cycle. Unfortunately, most steroid users have been engrained to believe that hCG should be used after a cycle, during Post-Cycle-Therapy. Upon reviewing the science and basic endocrinology you will see that a faster and more complete recovery is possible if hCG is ran during a cycle.

Firstly, we must understand the clinical history of hCG to understand its purpose and its most efficient application. Many popular “steroid profiles” advocate using hCG at a dose of 2500-5000iu once or twice a week. These were the kind of dosages used in the historical (1960's) hCG studies for hypogonadal men who had reduced testicular sensitivity due to prolonged LH deficiency. (21,22) A prolonged LH deficiency causes the testes to desensitize, requiring a higher hCG dose for ample stimulation. In men with normal LH levels and normal testicular sensitivity, the maximum increase of testosterone is seen from a dose of only 250iu, with minimal increases obtained from 500iu or even 5000iu. (2,11) (It appears the testes maximum secretion of testosterone is about 140% above their normal capacity.) (12-18) If you have allowed your testes to desensitize over the length of a typical steroid cycle, (8-16 weeks) then you would require a higher dose to elicit a response in an attempt to restore normal testicular size and function - but there is cost to this, and a high probability that you won't regain full testicular function.

One term that is critical to understand is testosterone secretion capacity which is synonymous to testicular sensitivity. This is the amount of testosterone your testes can produce from any given level of LH or hCG stimulation. Therefore, if you have reduced testosterone secretion capacity (reduced testicular sensitivity), it will take more LH or hCG stimulation to produce the same result as if you had normal testosterone secretion capacity. If you reduce your testosterone secretion capacity too much, then no amount of LH or hCG stimulation will trigger natural testosterone production - and this leads to permanently reduced testosterone production. (recovering full testosterone production is a topic for another article)

To get an idea of how quickly you can reduce your testosterone secretion capacity from your average steroid cycle, consider this: LH levels are rapidly decreased by the 2nd day of steroid administration. (2,9,10) By shutting down the LH signal and allowing the testis to be non-functional over a 12-16 week period, leydig cell volume decreases 90%, ITT decreases 94%, INSL3 decreases 95%, while the capacity to secrete testosterone decreases as much as 98%. (2-6)

Note: visually analyzing testes size is a poor method of judging your actual testicular function, since testicular size is not directly related to the ability to secrete testosterone. (4) This is because the leydig cells, which are the primary sites of testosterone secretion, only make up about 10% of the total testicular volume. Therefore, when the testes may only appear 5-10% smaller, the testes ability to secrete testosterone upon LH or hCG stimulation can actually be significantly reduced to 98% of their normal production. (3-5) So do not judge how "shutdown" you are by testicular size!

The decreased testosterone secretion capacity caused by steroid use was well demonstrated in a study on power athletes who used steroids for 16 weeks, and were then administered 4500iu hCG post cycle. It was found that the steroid users were about 20 times less responsive to hCG, when compared to normal men who did not use steroids. (8) In other words, their testosterone secretion capacity was dramatically reduced because they did not receive an LH signal for 16 weeks. The testes essentially became desensitized and crippled. Case studies with steroid using patients show that aggressive long-term treatment with hCG at dosages as high as 10,000iu E3D for 12 weeks were unable to return full testicular size. (7) Another study with men using low dose steroids for 6 weeks showed unsuccessful return of Insulin-like factor-3 (INSL3) concentration in the testes upon 5000iu/wk of HCG treatment for 12 weeks (6) (INSL3 is an important biomarker for testosterone production potential and sperm production) 20

In light of the above evidence, it becomes obvious that we must take preventative measures to avoid this testicular degeneration. We must protect our testicular sensitivity. Besides, with hCG being so readily available, and such a painless shot, it makes you wonder why anyone wouldn't use it on cycle.

Based on studies with normal men using steroids, 100iu HCG administered everyday was enough to preserve full testicular function and ITT levels, without causing desensitization typically associated with higher doses of hCG. (2) It is important that low-dose hCG is started before testicular sensitivity is reduced, which appears to rapidly manifest within the first 2-3 weeks of steroid use. Also, it's important to discontinue the hCG before you start Post-Cycle-Therapy so your leydig cells are given a chance to re-sensitize to your body's own LH production. (To help further enhance testicular sensitivity, the dietary supplement Toco-8 may be used)

Based off the above information, an optimal dose of hCG during the cycle would be 250iu every 4 days, or as a less desirable alternative, once a week shot of 500iu. Keep in mind, that the half-life of hCG is 3-4 days, while the half-life of LH is only 1-2 hours. Considering this difference in excretion time, it is best to space each dose of hCG at least 4 days apart for the optimal "peak and valley" replication. However, going more than 7 days between each hCG shot may promote increase the rate of desensitization from lack of LH or hCG stimulation.

If you are starting hCG late in the cycle, one could calculate a rough estimate for their required hCG "kick starting" dosage by multiplying 40iu x days of LH absence. (ie. 40iu x 60 days = 2400iu HCG dose) Remember, since the testes will be desensitized later in a cycle, you will require a higher dose. Also, the maximum daily dose of hCG should not exceed 5000iu, and 4-7 days must be taken off between each shot. Generally, a higher dose will require a longer off period between each shot. (eg., 2500iu = 7 days between each shot)

Note: If following the on cycle hCG protocol, hCG should NOT be used for PCT.

Recap -

For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 250iu every 4 day starting 14 days after your first AAS dose. At the end of the cycle, drop the hCG two weeks before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG about the same time as your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG about 10 days before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even clearance in hormone levels. This will initiate a strong LH and FSH surge from the pituitary, to begin stimulating your testes to produce testosterone. Remember, recovery doesn't begin until you are off hCG since your body will not release its own LH until the hCG has cleared the system.

In conclusion, we have learned that utilizing hCG during a steroid cycle will significantly prevent testicular degeneration. This helps create a seamless transition from “on cycle” to “off cycle” thus avoiding the post cycle crash.



References -

1. Glycoprotein hormones: structure and function.
Pierce JG, Parsons TF 1981
Annu Rev Biochem 50:466-495

2. Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men with Testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression
Andrea D. Coviello, et al
J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., May 2005; 90: 2595 - 2602.

3. Luteinizing hormone on Leydig cell structure and function.
Mendis-Handagama SM
Histol Histopathol 12:869-882 (1997)

4. Leydig cell peroxisomes and sterol carrier protein-2 in luteinizing hormone-deprived rats
SM Mendis-Handagama, et al.
Endocrinology, Dec 1992; 131: 2839.

5. Effect of long term deprivation of luteinizing hormone on Leydig cell volume, Leydig cell number, and steroidogenic capacity of the rat testis.
Keeney DS, et al.
Endocrinology 1988; 123:2906-2915.

6.The Effects of Gonadotropin Suppression and Selective Replacement on Insulin-Like Factor 3 Secretion in Normal Adult Men
Katrine Bay, et al
J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., Mar 2006; 91: 1108 - 1111.

7. Successful treatment of anabolic steroid-induced azoospermia with human
chorionic gonadotropin and human menopausal gonadotropin
Dev Kumar Menon, et al.
FERTILITY AND STERILITY VOL. 79, SUPPL. 3, JUNE 2003

8. Testicular responsiveness to human chorionic godadotrophin during transient hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism induced by androgenic/anabolic steroids in power athletes
Hannu et al.
J. Steroid Biochem. Vol. 25, No. 1 pp. 109-112 (1986)

9. Comparison of testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, luteinizing hormone, and follicle-stimulating hormone in serum after injection of testosterone enanthate of testosterone cypionate.
Schulte-Beerbuhl M, et al 1980
Fertil Steril 33:201-203

10. Effects of chronic testosterone administration in normal men: safety and efficacy of high dosage testosterone and parallel dose-dependent suppression of luteinizing hormone, follicle-stimulating hormone, and sperm production.
Matsumoto AM, et al 1990
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 70:282-287

11. Effect of human chorionic gonadotropin on plasma steroid levels in young and old men.
Longcope C et al
Steroids 21:583-590 (1973)

12. Regulation of peptide hormone receptors and gonadal steroidogenesis.
Catt KJ, et al
Rec Prog Horm Res 1980; 36:557-622

13. Effect of human chorionic gonadotropin on the endocrine function of Papio testes
GV Katsiia, et al
Probl Endokrinol (Mosk), Sep 1984; 30(5): 68-71.

14. Reproductive function in young fathers and grandfathers.
Nieschlag E, et al.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 55:676-681 (1982)

15. The aging Leydig cell III Gonadotropin stimulation in men.
Nankin HR, et al. 1981
J Androl 2:181-189

16. Reproductive hormones in aging men. I. Measurement of sex steroids, basal luteinizing hormone, and Leydig cell response to human chorionic gonadotropin.
Harman SM, et al. 1980
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 51:35-40

17. Prolonged biphasic response of plasma testosterone to single intramuscular injections of human chorionic gonadotropin.
Padron RS, et al. 1980
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 50:1100-1104

18. Gonadotrophins and plasma testosterone in senescence. In: James VHT, Serio M, Martini L, eds. The endocrine function of the human testis.
Mazzi C, et al. 1974
New York: Academic Press, Inc.; 51-66

19. Androgen biosynthesis in Leydig cells after testicular desensitization by luteinizing hormone-releasing hormone and human chorionic gonadotropin.
Dufau ML, et al.
Endocrinology 105 1314-1321 (1979)

20. Insulin-Like Factor 3 Serum Levels in 135 Normal Men and 85 Men with Testicular Disorders: Relationship to the Luteinizing Hormone-Testosterone Axis
K. Bay, S. et al
J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., Jun 2005; 90: 3410 - 3418.

21. Stimulation of sperm production by human chorionic gonadotropin after prolonged gonadotropin suppression in normal men.
Matsumoto AM, et al 1985
J Androl 6:137-143

22. Human chorionic gonadotropin and testicular function: stimulation of testosterone, testosterone precursors, and sperm production despite high estradiol levels.
Matsumoto AM, et al. 1983
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 56:720-728
 
What type of backlash?
If he uses an AI there wont be excess estro.
If his testos come back fully, they arent going to atrophy right away when he comes off an uses a SERM.

I have seen people use this HCG protocol on cycle and recover just as fine as if they had used 250iu 2x per week the whole cycle..

because its very close to using the serm. what im saying is, just like a steroid, if you are basically frontloading, and then in this case just stopping abruptly, there has to be a risk of more possible sides. and right if he uses an AI there wont be any estro. which will cause the side effects. your body needs both testosterone and estrogen to fully recover. regulating testosterone and estrogen and bringing them back gradually will return your body to better homeostasis and reduce sides. basically what he would be doing by using the hcg and an ai is completely disabling estrogen, will cause a higher chance of rebound.
 
because its very close to using the serm. what im saying is, just like a steroid, if you are basically frontloading, and then in this case just stopping abruptly, there has to be a risk of more possible sides. and right if he uses an AI there wont be any estro. which will cause the side effects. your body needs both testosterone and estrogen to fully recover. regulating testosterone and estrogen and bringing them back gradually will return your body to better homeostasis and reduce sides. basically what he would be doing by using the hcg and an ai is completely disabling estrogen, will cause a higher chance of rebound.

At a mild dose he can decrease estro just at normal levels or slightly lower.
That will help him recover fast.
Estro is infact suppressive to HPTA. But I see where you are coming from.
HCG has a 3-4 day HL. So he starts a serm a few days after last HCG injection and lets the serm build up in his system and saturate.
 
well, you shoulda started HCG a long time ago , but since u didn't we really can't harp on that right now. but i can say tren for that long is insane. and if it was ur first time using it, ur in for a hard recovery. i honestly think u might be passed using hcg at this point. two shots left and then going into pct? seems worthless. i know people who use it during pct, but i honestly do not like that. hcg should've been pinned 250iu 2x a week while u were on cycle for probably the last half of the cycle. i hope you have one killer pct planned...

I was planning on running a 10 wk cycle,ended up gettin 20 more ccs of each and ran for 16 weeks. Ive been off tren for almost a month now and Im still getting stronger/bigger with just 400mg/test.


I shot HCG this sunday and started taking 20 mg of nolva(ED) with it,should I up to it 40 mg?
 
I was planning on running a 10 wk cycle,ended up gettin 20 more ccs of each and ran for 16 weeks. Ive been off tren for almost a month now and Im still getting stronger/bigger with just 400mg/test.


I shot HCG this sunday and started taking 20 mg of nolva(ED) with it,should I up to it 40 mg?

ur using hcg during pct? and no do not up the nolva more than that, if this is not pct. nolva really shouldnt be used on cycle anyways for estrogen control, arimidex is better choice.
 
ur using hcg during pct? and no do not up the nolva more than that, if this is not pct. nolva really shouldnt be used on cycle anyways for estrogen control, arimidex is better choice.
Agree

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If you are starting hCG late in the cycle, one could calculate a rough estimate for their required hCG "kick starting" dosage by multiplying 40iu x days of LH absence. (ie. 40iu x 60 days = 2400iu HCG dose) Remember, since the testes will be desensitized later in a cycle, you will require a higher dose. Also, the maximum daily dose of hCG should not exceed 5000iu, and 4-7 days must be taken off between each shot. Generally, a higher dose will require a longer off period between each shot. (eg., 2500iu = 7 days between each shot)

HCG in pct is not advisable, if you have stopped your cycle I would forget about the HCG at this point and start pct...SERM of choice and something like our TRS stack to go with it.
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Well Im extremely paranoid about my testes never returning to normal now,I shouldve done a better research myself.I got all the advice from a friend ive known for a while whos suppose to be an "experienced" user.He never mentioned anything about dosing HCG on long cycles.


Ive noticed a slight difference in the testes since ive shot HCG,they've gotten bigger and the sack is starting to hang lower at times.My mood is normal and stable.Im actually feeling better than when i was dosing tren.I don't think it can get any worse than that emotionally during PCT.Since ive missed out on dosing HCG during cycle,should I take higher amount of HCG or it won't make any difference at all ?


@ Primordial rep: Ive used the TRS stack before when I did 1-T. PCT was well.I kept all my gains and improved even in PCT. I doubt that would happen in this PCT with all the gains ive made,id be happy if i kept %75 of the strenght. How would you say your product is better than HCG when it comes to sentisizing the testes? If my testes are alrdy shutdown and HCG wont do anything..How would TRS stack benefit?
 
OMG, you are being steered wrong!!!!
HCG is the fastest way to regain teste mass..
Take HCG ED for a week or 2 with a mild AI.
Then 4 days after your last HCG shot start clomid! And hell, the TRS stack if you wish.
It takes forever to get your testes back to full size without it..
 
Hcg has definitely gone to the wayside as of late, mostly the old school guys who use it, usually it is started about mid cycle or so. I haven't ever used it personally. My typical pct is torem with sustain alpha, if you have the money sure get the whole trs. I do 4 weeks of torem, after 2 weeks into pct I start the sustain and run for 4 weeks.
 
@ Primordial rep: Ive used the TRS stack before when I did 1-T. PCT was well.I kept all my gains and improved even in PCT. I doubt that would happen in this PCT with all the gains ive made,id be happy if i kept %75 of the strenght. How would you say your product is better than HCG when it comes to sentisizing the testes? If my testes are alrdy shutdown and HCG wont do anything..How would TRS stack benefit?

Not saying it's better, nothing works like HCG ON cycle. However I assumed that you were in pct, and my suggestion was that if this were the case HCG in pct is not something I would recommend. Like you have stated the TRS worked very well for you in the past, and I know tren is very suppressive, so I gave you an option to consider going straight into pct. Just trying to give you some ideas.
 
OMG, you are being steered wrong!!!!
HCG is the fastest way to regain teste mass..
Take HCG ED for a week or 2 with a mild AI.
Then 4 days after your last HCG shot start clomid! And hell, the TRS stack if you wish.
It takes forever to get your testes back to full size without it..

I'm not trying to steer him wrong, and agree that a SERM needs to be started after cessation of HCG.
 
Almost 2 weeks into PCT n everything is going great..Im still walking around 193-195 during the day.The water weight seems to be coming off as I look a little bit more vascular.I got forma stanozol and have been on it for 5 days now,ever ive used it i noticed a boost in my libido..Im feeling way better right now than how I was on cycle.I can finally sleep without turning around 50 times a night.All strenght gains have maintained so far,im really happy about that.


Thanks for thelp guys! Especially JC.
 
Im coming off my first long injectable cycle.Ive been on cycle for 15 weeks now(test P,tren ace)been off tren for the past 3 weeks and been running just test P,i have 2 shots(test) left and im doing my first shot of HCG tonight.I was reading along this thread on here that it is not good to use HCG alone for the PCT because it can shut you down more. Is it okay to run hcg along with test for the next week,and just hcg alone for the following week till I start nolva?. I have 3 weeks worth of HCG.


Any help is appreciated,

dont run HCG into your pct.
also toco-8 HCGenerate and sustain alpha would be great for helping witrh recovery after/during pct. the resvertrol will help boost T and lower E.
 
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