Question for Obama sparks Web buzz
- Thread starter bmcjames
- Start date
EasyEJL
Never enough
I'm not tired of defending him, because I knew he was a sack of crap from the day he showed up in congress. Anyone who wins their first political seat (in the Illinois state senate) by waiting until the day after people are able to enter the race to systematically use legal maneuvers to disqualify all of his opponents is essentially dishonest and disingenous.
mich29
Board Sponsor
I'm not tired of defending him.I hate hearing people cry and moan about this and that.Level minded people are smart enough to know he isn't going to fix things in his first term(granted he gets a second term of course) there's simply too many things wrong in order for him to do that.He was the lesser of the evils in the race he isn't perfect but the rest of the people running would have made things ALOT worse imo.
DAdams91982
Board Sponsor
If he would have simply done nothing in office, we would be better off.
DAdams91982
Board Sponsor
Amen... of course I disagree of which one was lesser.
Lets just hope "Man of the Year" really happens!
EasyEJL
Never enough
I dunno, Chris Christie in NJ looks pretty good honestly.
DAdams91982
Board Sponsor
Better yet.. how about Stephen Colbert... he was sponsored in the last race by Dorito's!
DAdams91982
Board Sponsor
I definitely agree... but you just said that to the man who would rape his dog given the chance!
AE14
Board Sponsor
that just shows you arent near NJ :rofl:
AE14
Board Sponsor
Amen... of course I disagree of which one was lesser.
Lets just hope "Man of the Year" really happens!
Robin Williams for president
mich29
Board Sponsor
this is the biggest problem you have people high in power that are dirty, you have to fix things from the top and work your way down.
AE14
Board Sponsor
agreed, not to sound all "ZeroV" but thi is an enormous problem that can be fixed through a revolution. (Thomas Jefferson would be proud)
DAdams91982
Board Sponsor
That is completely impossible to do. You have to start at the lowest level and trickle up to fix things. A real statesman will never be elected directly to president.
DAdams91982
Board Sponsor
May not have liked many of the things Zero said.. but he was dead on when it came to some things.
remember though... it will not be televised.
EasyEJL
Never enough
No, but I grew up there till I was 21, and know the sort of liberal nonsense that generally dominates the state.
Also, somehow when Obama does something that the majority of the public is against you'd call it him "doing the right thing no matter what", but when Christie balanced the NJ budget its somehow wrong? Deficit spending can't go on indefinitely, and unions are no less a special interest group than any other special interest group. Whether teachers union, toll workers union, AFL-CIO, etc. They each have their own axes to grind, and are special interest groups.
Urban Monk
Board Sponsor
Christie talks big, but has no procedural know-how. He recently cost the state 400 million in federal funding for our educational system. Seeing as you grew up there (as did I), you realize how important this money is/was.
EasyEJL
Never enough
Did "he" cost the state $400 mil, or did one of his underlings who filled out or filed something wrong? From what I remember hearing about it, it was something incorrectly filed.
And besides, taken from the outside view (living in Florida now), education is a local issue, there shouldn't be federal funding necessary for it. Its another piece of the reasons why our federal deficit goes up and up and up. It becomes a shuffle of blame, the state throws their hands up in the air and says "we can't manage this" and the federal government swoops in with cash stolen from all 50 states. That way the state doesn't have to raise their sales/real estate/income taxes themselves, and can avoid blame.
But like any shell game or accounting gimmick, you can only get away with it for so long before it all falls apart. We saw it with Enron, we saw it with a bunch of the Wall Street groups, we saw it with banks, we saw it in Greece and are likely to see it soon in possibly Spain + Turkey as well. I think Ireland is at fairly deep risk too.
lonewolf0420
Well-known member
Fat Cats, and Big Corp, will always trump the well-being of this country. I'm sure Obama had big plans for when he got into office, about how he was going to turn this country around.
It gonna be a long hard road if he's honest. Too many hands in his face going "oh no, your not thinning my pockets". Greed has reigned supreme.
It gonna be a long hard road if he's honest. Too many hands in his face going "oh no, your not thinning my pockets". Greed has reigned supreme.
DAdams91982
Board Sponsor
Would you not be upset if one man wanted to take an unequal amount of earned money from your family as opposed to another? Well being isn't spreading around the wealth.
EasyEJL
Never enough
Oh please, he overturned centuries contract law in the bankruptcies of GM + Chrysler by paying out unsecured debts (to the unions) before secured debts (bondholders) and took over both companies. He took over banks, and just continues to seek more and more governmental control over corporations - ie socialism 1 inch at a time.
He was never honest about turning this country around, his goal is closer to a 1 world government which turns us in the wrong direction (as we have the highest lifestyle internationally, which means we lose the most).
Urban Monk
Board Sponsor
Underling or not, its his administration that created the mistake. As the face of it, and the de facto manager; he takes responsibility.
And the federal government money wasn't just money thrown in the air. It was part of a program designed to foster better educational systems in the states competing (known as Race To The Top).
To philosophically disagree w/ federal funding is one thing, but to bring that in as a point when the money already existed and was clearly going to go somewhere (its not like it up and disappeared) is a little besides the point. Its like the republican governors who swore up and down they would take no stimulus/bail-out funds, and then subsequently did. Practicality wins out over politics any day (if they know whats good for them).
And the federal government money wasn't just money thrown in the air. It was part of a program designed to foster better educational systems in the states competing (known as Race To The Top).
To philosophically disagree w/ federal funding is one thing, but to bring that in as a point when the money already existed and was clearly going to go somewhere (its not like it up and disappeared) is a little besides the point. Its like the republican governors who swore up and down they would take no stimulus/bail-out funds, and then subsequently did. Practicality wins out over politics any day (if they know whats good for them).
Urban Monk
Board Sponsor
And just to show that even Christie is not above political blame and spin. (My main point being that mostly all politicians are simply that....players of politics)
DAdams91982
Board Sponsor
Sounds like a bunch of pandering to me. Looks like Fed wanted to bring discredit to Christie since he is the biggest threat right now. When in fact the issue could have been resolved and not a big deal. But......
Using kids as a political football.
lonewolf0420
Well-known member
Again I'm talking about the fat cats of corp America who are still taking million dollar bonuses, all the while, the hard working "man" is getting **** on, and laid off. Just trying to make ends meet, and can't even afford insurance to keep him healthy and working.
Recession over, my ass.
Recession over, my ass.
EasyEJL
Never enough
The CEOs of major corporations have tons more responsibility as well as skills + education than they did 40 years ago, but the average blue collar worker has neither any more responsibility or skills than they did 40 years ago. Blue collar jobs are basically dead in the US, other than lame service jobs. You can partially thank unions for that.
and yeah, the recession isn't over and won't be in real world terms for most people for at least a decade, if ever.
DAdams91982
Board Sponsor
If it is a private institution, the million dollar bonuses are of no concern to anyone. You are making gross generalizations that propagate from one side of the isle to demonize Capitalism in support of another agenda. Then again, unfortunately we have effectively moved away from Capitalism into Corporatism, the final nail was nationalizing private institutions. Kudo's TARP.
EasyEJL
Never enough
I think even worse was the financial reform bill, which gives the president the ability to decide on his own that a corporation is "too big to fail" and enable governmental takeover and dismantling of it, with no criteria necessary. He could decide as it gets closer to his re-election to determine that Rupert Murdoch's NewsCorp is "too big to fail" and have the government take it over to dismantle Fox News's and the other conservative reporting. A ridiculous warping of the constitution to enable that sort of power in any individual.
AE14
Board Sponsor
I wouldnt say that about Obama if I disagreed.
Christie is just being very short sighted. We need to look at what he has done in order to balance the budget. In essence, attack state employees and promise not to fund their pensions.
However, what he doesnt realize is that he is forcing state employees who are on the cusp of retirement, to retire early and level the pension all together. Additionally, he is taking the state that is nationally recognized as #3 in education and destroying the system. Bravo
DAdams91982
Board Sponsor
I look at it the exact opposite. Looking at the long view, dealing with the pain and bleeding now, instead of exacerbating the issue longer. State employees are the issue here... somehow the government is growing larger and faster than the private sector.
AE14
Board Sponsor
they arent growing faster and larger, it is just that there is a recession right now and the private sector feels it more.
I look at it like this: my school board agreed to a particualr contract, which cannot and should not be renegotitated. During times of economic boom, teachers didnt ask the board to reopen the contacts to get more money.
Additionally, most teachers went into teaching for a variety of reasons, one of which was security. I have friends who make double or triple what I do, but have a major job security problem that I do not. Its a trade off.
This is not a total state employee issue.
Urban Monk
Board Sponsor
I agree w/ the above exactly. And no side is blameless. To say something is solely one person's fault is terribly short-sighted and uninformed. The teacher's unions definitely need reform and to afford some concessions, but Christie definitely needs to come a ways inroads also. To paint this as right/wrong misses the picture.
DAdams91982
Board Sponsor
You just proved your own problem.
Why is being a teacher thought of being completely secure in your job? Because of the unions that made it to where it takes an act of God to fire someone, or apparently diddling the kids.
Teachers should be held to standards and be compensated based on merit, not because you have been breathing longest in that school.
Christie gave the Union opportunity to avoid what he had done, but the union wouldn't budge, so someone with the purse strings had to.
EasyEJL
Never enough
They are growing larger and larger, each year the public sector grows, and it is a non-GDP positive growth sector.
In general if you look at public sector employee vs private sector, the public sector supporters say that even including the cost of benefits the pay is about on par. What they neglect to mention in talking about that is that for non-degreed employees (high school diploma only), the average public sector worker makes 2x as much as he would in the private sector, and almost as much as degreed employees.
And for teachers specifically, i'm not sure why so many expect to make similar wages as the private sector, given that with all the holidays, half days, etc teachers have roughly an 8 month work schedule vs 11-12 in the private sector. You'd have to think that teachers should make around 2/3 what other degreed professionals do, because thats roughly what they put in timewise.
Urban Monk
Board Sponsor
No, AE's point is valid. Contracts are signed in both actual law and the spirit of the law. To retroactively change them invalidates the entire notion of having a contract to begin w/.
EasyEJL
Never enough
No, it really is that simple. You can't indefinitely spend money you don't have. At some point, you have to start making unpleasant choices. Teachers isn't the only spot where spending cuts are being made, but again, their union has year by year made public school teachers effectively less and less competitive with private schools. Not counting parochial schools, most states are paying about the same (within 10% or so) and yet in the end are not preparing kids for college as well as private schools
The study behind this showed that after putting in controls for Socio Economic Status, that state standardized acheivement tests were roughly equal however...
DAdams91982
Board Sponsor
Where is this contract that was being encroached on? I have read it that people's salary and what not listed in the contract are being honored, just now teachers are losing their jobs due to lack of funds.
if I remember correctly that was what was being offered, to reorg the contract so there are funds there to keep people on board, but the union denied that and now the money is STILL not there, so people have to lose their jobs.
People like this not willing to take the pay cut to help his union member out, which is what he is actually there for. No one is completely altruistic.
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if I remember correctly that was what was being offered, to reorg the contract so there are funds there to keep people on board, but the union denied that and now the money is STILL not there, so people have to lose their jobs.
People like this not willing to take the pay cut to help his union member out, which is what he is actually there for. No one is completely altruistic.
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EasyEJL
Never enough
You mean like was done with GM's bankruptcy and paying unsecured debts before secured debts out of the bankruptcy proceedings?
Contracts are always subject to renegotiation. And they can be turned down as well, as happened there. Although I don't know whether during "fat years" whether any given teachers union did attempt to renegotiate terms or not, its been common in other industries with their unions, for the union to ask for a contract renegotiation mid cycle. When the choice is renegotiation or layoffs and the union chooses layoffs, the laid off people can complain to the union. Hawaii is the perfect example, because the union couldn't come to terms with the state, teachers had every friday off (as well as the students of course)
DAdams91982
Board Sponsor
Timewise? Easy I have worked in both and thwe time I put in for tea9hing far exceeds what I did in banking. I will address the other points later.
Man, my friend is a teacher here... that dude works so little and makes a good salary. Never works the summer, leaves work by 3:30 every day, the most holidays off ever. I some how do not see your point, when I put in 60 hours a week, with no happy little summer waiting around the corner.
EasyEJL
Never enough
Timewise? Easy I have worked in both and thwe time I put in for tea9hing far exceeds what I did in banking. I will address the other points later.
With a school day starting at 8, and ending at 4 you have 8 hours, where you get a 50 minute period for lunch. So you are working 7:10 at that point. Most schools there are 180~ teaching days a year, and we'll round up to 190*430 minutes = 81700 minutes = 1362 work hours. Average private sector employee has 2 weeks vacation plus 9 holidays for 240 work days. Calling it just 8 hours a day, thats 1920 hours a year worked, almost 50% more working hours. Even if you were to do 2 extra hours a day for your classes you are still signifcantly behind private sector, if average private sector job was really only 8 hours a day.
And i'm not picking on teachers specifically, its true of all public sector positions
this math done from US Bureau of Labor statistics
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AE14
Board Sponsor
there are soem good and bad things about tenure. In certain districts (mine for example) you have very politcally powerful parents who will ruin a teachers career without batting an eye. I have seen it happen. Tenure was created as a way to take the power away so to speak.
Merited based pay doesnt work in most areas. For the simple reason, for what are we judging the teachers on? Does it incorporate all the Sp. Ed students in reg education classes? There is no solid model for it and there does not seem to be one on the horizon
AE14
Board Sponsor
Not to be rude, but he might be the one that takes advantage of tenure. For me I have worked every summer for the last decade.
you forget one small thing....all the hours that you work at home as a teacher, researching and planning etc... hours you dont get paid for.
Now compare that to the private sector, where many here are saying that you do nothing at all except sit here at am. Hmmmm......
(I am a tad cranky too)
DAdams91982
Board Sponsor
He doesn't have tenure, only been a teacher for 5ish years. I know others that are the same way
DAdams91982
Board Sponsor
Private Schools follow the merit based model, why can't others? peer review, student testing, parent feedback, education levels.
AE14
Board Sponsor
Student testing at a private school is far different than a public school. Personally, as an AP teacher I welcome it. I have the highest scores in my subject around, so I will get raises up the wazoo, however, for a teacher teaching CP US history that has 9 classified kids and no ICS it is not a fair assessment to make.
Some of the other ideas have some merit (no pun intended) however, there is also the fact that the board agrees to their contract (3 years typically) and there is no reason that any self respecting teacher would be willing to renegotiate.
Urban Monk
Board Sponsor
Because its not all or nothing. That's the entire point, and what I've been saying from the beginning. There was no chance for negotiation really. It was all out war by Christie from the beginning.
Now keep in mind, that I don't support school teachers as they stand in NJ and would side w/ Christie on the rationale of this issue. However, his approach leaves much to be desired and it results in not only a loss of funds, but severe acrimony between all parties.
youngandfree
Well-known member
The part about defending pensions. Look at the private sector. About three years ago, several large companies did it. Verizon stopped pensions for management with less than 10 years. You keep what is in there to that point, but it stops growing and Verizon stops adding to it.
And they weren't the only ones, I just don't recall off the top of my head. But they did it to save money. Why is it that private companies can and have to do it, but government agencies can't and won't. Look at California's state pension problems. They are underfunded by hundreds of millions of dollars. Who's fault is that since they have some of the highest taxes in the country.
Someone also explain why the highest taxed states have the worst situations, California, New York, New Jersey, when the lowest taxed states have the best situation, Texas Florida, Tennessee ?