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Toremifene side effects

atnartist said:
w
I may be jumping in too quick but I didn't think I could finish the thread without commenting on this.
Ok, from what I have learned is that the "SERM" is created to stop the "bad" estrogen. Not all estrogen is bad, your body has so much more at the end of a cycle because the cycle has your levels all out of whack and your body is trying to compensate for the elevated "fake" test levels your body has been getting. NOW what we want from the serm is too allow the estrogen to remain HIGH but not the estrogen that causes us to grow boobies but all other estrogen so that our bodies will see the levels of estrogen being high and counter react by NATURALLY elevating our test levels.
I too have been toying around with the idea of using a serm around the last couple of weeks of being on my cycle as to go ahead and stop the bad estrogen and allow me to not worry about my levels being off. This way there is no lapse because gyno can hit during your cycle not just after.
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SERMs do not block "bad" estrogen. It stops the estrogen from going to "bad" (unwanted) places. For example your boobs :)
I think this is what you mean, but just making sure. ;)
 
I would totally say clomid ONLY for any pct.

Have arimidex on standby for any high E issues that arise.

Clomid dosed 50/50/50/50 and carry it on another 3 weeks or so at 25/25/25

Use the arimidex/liquidex as needed to address any nipple issues/bloating/estrogen anxiety problems.

I don't like nolva. It blocks the breast tissue and stimulates LH, but I don't think it stimulates LH as well as clomid. Nolva also kills my libido whereas clomid boosts the crap out of it. And, there is no need to block the breast tissue. Blocking the breast tissue doesn't fix the problem. Arimidex fixes the problem by reducing the E2 in at the root.
 
i dont have arim, but i do have atd. will that suffice?

also since i already have torem, would that work if nipple sensitivity came to play?

Also would 50/50/25/25/25 work? or does it really need to be carried over for that long?

I am also running the TRS by PP.
 
qwerty33 said:
i dont have arim, but i do have atd. will that suffice?

also since i already have torem, would that work if nipple sensitivity came to play?

Also would 50/50/25/25/25 work? or does it really need to be carried over for that long?

I am also running the TRS by PP.
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I suggest armidex because it has a 3 day half-life. ATD might work, along with many OTC AI's but I dont like how they wear off so quickly and cause rebound if dosages aren't perfectly timed.

I just suggested running the clomid longer because it can actually give you a nice boost of T above your normal levels, beyond full recovery to give you an extra boost.
 
qwerty33 said:
an extra boost sounds good to me. just dont want any harmful effects from the serm
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You shouldn't have any problems at the doses Monster is suggesting.

The nice thing about clomid sides is that most are very subjective... blurred vision, mood swings. It's not a stealthy side effect like crushing HDL behind the scenes. So if it's too much, you can lower doses immediately if need be.

Monster,
I like your pct theory. If you need it, you got it in your stash. If you don't need it, don't just add it to your fancy pct list to look smart :head:
 
qwerty33 said:
an extra boost sounds good to me. just dont want any harmful effects from the serm
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I hated toremifene, and novla. They made my joints ache, and made me feel like a women with no libido.

I'm now on TRT, but before TRT my doc put me on 12 weeks of clomid therapy. I was on 25mg/day for 12 weeks. I had consistently been testing at 300ng/dl...after 10 weeks at only 25mg/day I was at 550ng. Unfortunately, I didn't stay there. My ALT/AST were perfect. No liver toxicity issues with clomid at all.

My only side effects were occasionally extremely itchy skin. Benedryl knocked this right out. I had great sleep, much better recovery, awesome sex drive. The only vision problem was backflash at night. If I turned a light on and then turned it back off, I would see the backflash of the light for a few minutes in the darkness....like having a camera flashes right into your eye. During the day my vision was fine.

Clomid is the most trusted and tried SERM for recovery. There is a reason doctors use clomid for fertility instead of nolvadex. Additionally, all these "herbal test boosters" and all that junk are all COMPLETELY redundant during PCT with a SERM. DTHC works, but it works by freeing up test and increasing LH slightly. However, clomid is going to kick the crap out of DTHC, so you are just wasting money. Save all this herbal junk for after PCT. People just don't want to accept that they are going to have low sex drive and energy for a few weeks and just keep adding supplements to the list.

The only time you may need armidex would be at the beginning of PCT, when you T comes rushing back and the aromatase is high from being suppressed by your non-aromatizing steroid. However, if you take a calm approach with clomid you probably won't even need it. People get themsevles into estrogen rollercoasters by overdoing the AI during PCT which causes the "rebound gyno"
 
celc5 said:
You shouldn't have any problems at the doses Monster is suggesting.

The nice thing about clomid sides is that most are very subjective... blurred vision, mood swings. It's not a stealthy side effect like crushing HDL behind the scenes. So if it's too much, you can lower doses immediately if need be.

Monster,
I like your pct theory. If you need it, you got it in your stash. If you don't need it, don't just add it to your fancy pct list to look smart :head:
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so if vision issues occur at 50mg i just drop it to 25 and that should clear it up? the half life is 5 days so curious

do you guys believe in cort blockers as well? when is the best time during pct to incorporate? I have endoamp max
 
Qwerty,
Monster's post was loaded with spot-on info. Strongly consider implementing his philosophies, especially regarding the bogus Toremefine libido hype, his blood work showing low toxicity of Clomid, and ridiculous test booster hype.

In my opinion, you won't have much vision issues with 50mg for 4 weeks. But IF you did, in my opinion dropping to 25mg should theoretically remedy the problem.

I sit the fence on the cortisol pct questions. I'm torn and my opinion is swayed frequently. One thing I do believe is that we spend too much money on cort control and too much time thinking about it in terms of the supplements that we have available otc.
 
celc5 said:
Qwerty,
Monster's post was loaded with spot-on info. Strongly consider implementing his philosophies, especially regarding the bogus Toremefine libido hype, his blood work showing low toxicity of Clomid, and ridiculous test booster hype.

In my opinion, you won't have much vision issues with 50mg for 4 weeks. But IF you did, in my opinion dropping to 25mg should theoretically remedy the problem.

I sit the fence on the cortisol pct questions. I'm torn and my opinion is swayed frequently. One thing I do believe is that we spend too much money on cort control and too much time thinking about it in terms of the supplements that we have available otc.
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I have implemented his/your philosophies. also when I went to my doc last year, he told me the only thing he prescribes is clomi for htpa recovery. Sealed the deal, so 50/50/50/50/25/25 is prob what i will run. When would a good time to start cort control? Also are there rx research chems that are better? or is cort control not really an issue and just hype in pct therapy today?

with otc test boosters, sustain alpha and/or other test booster type products, are they unnecessary and ineffective then? Im all for less supps that work is better than more

Thanks for the info
 
ive never messed with cortisol control. I take cissus most of the year for my joints and its supposedly reduces cortisol. I think all the cortisol rebound stuff is way way over hyped.

IIRC, testosterone and cortisol counteract each other. The higher your T levels, the lower the effect of cortisol on fat gain, and muscle loss. Low T levels leads to higher cortisol effect. Therefore, it would make sense to try and lower cortisol during pct, however I just think it doesn't make much of a difference. When your T comes back from running a proper pct, it should balance things out again right?

I'm alway afraid of running cortisol too low with these blockers. If you run it down too low you end up having severe symptoms of adrenal fatigue. Joints pain, libido problems, sleep problems, dizzyness, etc.. And, cycling anabolics puts strain on your adrenal system already.
 
so then a pct is much simpler that i have ever thought.

Just Clomi

(and AI on hand incase of estro issues)
 
qwerty33 said:
so then a pct is much simpler that i have ever thought.

Just Clomi

(and AI on hand incase of estro issues)
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In my opinion, if there's not a definite gyno problem, then clomid would be my serm of choice. So that means restarting hpta is priority over estrogen control. Clomid binds more strongly to receptors in the brain, which is what makes it better for hpta recovery.

In my opinion, if there was ON cycle gyno or a history of strong estrogen problems, nolva, torem, or ralox would be my serm of choice. These serms selectively bind more strongly to receptors in the breast tissue.

So with logic I'd choose my serm based on my current priority.... keeping in mind that either choice should bind somewhat to both brain and breast receptors.
 
celc5 said:
In my opinion, if there's not a definite gyno problem, then clomid would be my serm of choice. So that means restarting hpta is priority over estrogen control. Clomid binds more strongly to receptors in the brain, which is what makes it better for hpta recovery.

In my opinion, if there was ON cycle gyno or a history of strong estrogen problems, nolva, torem, or ralox would be my serm of choice. These serms selectively bind more strongly to receptors in the breast tissue.

So with logic I'd choose my serm based on my current priority.... keeping in mind that either choice should bind somewhat to both brain and breast receptors.
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agreed!

I still think arimidex might be good to use if you get really bloated/puffy/estrogenic to keep gyno away and keep emotions down.

Celc when was your last cycle?
 
would sustain alpha help with too much estro then / keeping estrogen in check, since it has a mild AI in it?
 
Monster,
it's been about a year. I have more fun on cycle and feel better when off with the less cycles that I run. I plan to run either M14add or halo/epi stack at some point this year.

Qwerty,
I'm skeptical, but I honestly don't know the answer to your question.
 
qwerty33 said:
how would you dose the epi/halo since there both methyls
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conservatively. it's my opinion that both aren't real toxic. So it probably has the potential to get messy only if doses started creeping up higher or if ran for too long.

Just thinking out loud, but maybe something like this:
Halo 50/75/75/75
Epi 30/40/40/40
*keep in mind that none of my plans are rigid. If I was seeing rediculous results by day 7, I'd keep my doses where they are. If I was still like "this sucks" at day 14, I might bump the halo again... just for example
 
I don't understand why you would run halo and epi...how do they compliment each other? Whats the main difference between the two? I figured havoc/epi was just stronger than halo. Halo is just weak methyl cutter? Why not run dbol, superdrol, or something with havoc.

The sweet spot for me now at my weight for epi is 40-50mg. 50mg was rediculous compared to 30mg.
 
monsterbox said:
I don't understand why you would run halo and epi...how do they compliment each other? Whats the main difference between the two? I figured havoc/epi was just stronger than halo. Halo is just weak methyl cutter? Why not run dbol, superdrol, or something with havoc.

The sweet spot for me now at my weight for epi is 40-50mg. 50mg was rediculous compared to 30mg.
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just trying to get some idea for a cut cycle for the summer down the road. When i ran epi 2 years back, at the end of the cycle i got nipple sensitivity that went away with atd. Was this caused by too estro suppression from the epi?

What would your sd/epi stack look like

also would h-drol/SD work a well or is hdrol 2 weak.
 
qwerty33 said:
just trying to get some idea for a cut cycle for the summer down the road. When i ran epi 2 years back, at the end of the cycle i got nipple sensitivity that went away with atd. Was this caused by too estro suppression from the epi?

What would your sd/epi stack look like

also would h-drol/SD work a well or is hdrol 2 weak.
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..
When you got this feeling, can you explain what the feeling was like, specifically and what brand of epi?
 
I find it very beneficial to get bloodw done a few days after the last dose in order to find out exactly where my body is and what I need. I'd rather that than to chance it with "research" and advice, which essentially turns out to be person specific and not very general to say the least.
 
monsterbox said:
I don't understand why you would run halo and epi...how do they compliment each other? Whats the main difference between the two? I figured havoc/epi was just stronger than halo. Halo is just weak methyl cutter? Why not run dbol, superdrol, or something with havoc.

The sweet spot for me now at my weight for epi is 40-50mg. 50mg was rediculous compared to 30mg.
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To be honest, I'm basing my plan on about 4-5 incredible reviews that I've seen with that stack. There's no definitive log or detailed review on that stack so I'm volunteering myself at some point. Goals would be lean bulk.

In my experience, epithio was BY FAR the mildest compound that I've run. In comparison, Halo gave me the most gains in lean mass aside from SD. I agree that halo is good for keeping gains super clean with increased cals. At the same time, it's my opinion that I'd be selling myself short on potential lean mass gains if I used it for a strict cutter.

Finally, no thanks to dbol or superdrol. My lifestyle doesn't allow for the sides so they're not worth it for me personally. Gotta be able to function in the bedroom and think straight at work :afro:
 
havoc is the only thing I can trust. It makes me into a god everytime. I've gained a solid 10lbs on every cycle, no matter what the circumstances. The strength gains are not that great compared to the size/pump. Its probably a mild compound but my body responds like crazy to anything above the norm.


I took pplex for 3 weeks and gained NOTHING. I had massive anxiety/butterflys on it. I switched to m-drol and only made it a week. Within that week I gained 5lbs of muscle and rediculous strength, it was like 4 weeks of havoc into 1 week. However, I got bad insomnia, came off and had terrible anxiety during PCT. TERRIBLE. On-cycle my enzymes were 600alt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! After PCT they dropped to normal. Just food for thought.


My recent epi/havoc cycle was the first cycle on-top of TRT. I don't think you can truly evaluate any oral compound until its ran in conjuction with supported T levels why so? Well, everyone thinks epi so dry. I agree, when I ran epi back before TRT, it dried me out so bad my joints felt like 95yr olds. However, epi+trt acted totally totally different. Epi bloated me up, made my joints feel fantastic, made my libido rediculous, but also caused my estrogen to go way up. I started taking arimidex the 2nd week in...

So, this leads me to believe that epi is NOT dry in-and-of-itself. Epi is non-aromatizing, but that does NOT mean its anti-estrogenic. When taking epi without a T base, it will work great until you start to shut-down, once your endogenous T production halts, you no longer have E production because E comes from T...and epi isn't going to aromatize..therefore, the dryness is from lack of natural testosterone. When running epi ontop of exogenous T, your body is not deprived of T and continues to make E, and the epi lowers your SHBG probably substantially causing more free-t, and thus more E. But, it gets complicated in that epi acts like SERM at the same time. I noticed there would be less bloat when I took the pills, and the bloat/estro sides would kick in 4-8hrs later (which is the halflife)

Whatever the cause is, epi is not an aromatase-inhibitor. And if it is, it rebounds off of itself because of the short half-life. So, have a long lasting AI on hand like arimidex with any oral. Using AI's like ATD is playing with fire if you are trying to solve a high-E issue. ATD will crush the E wikedly, and it will wear off so quickly you won't even know what happend. Then your E will come back with a vengence...stay away from ATD.
 
Interestingly, havoc is the epithio that I ran. I think we share the same opinion in response to epithio... I personally think it felt like a mild version of phera where both were a bit puffy/damp feeling. That's a real interesting theory you have regarding 1/2 life. I prefer TD form on cycle, which theoretically has a 12 hr half life. So I never noticed anything estrogenic, but definately not as DRY as halo or SD for me.

And since you mentioned it, I never ran Pplex. I ran AX Phera, if that matters :dunno: It was a wicked awesome cycle for me personally :head: If strength was a primary goal, it was unreal for power moves and a relatively easy recovery too.

Oh ya, back to the epi/halo stack... here's a quote I found from DA:
Am looking to cycle but don't know what I want to run this time. Last cycle was halo and epi and it RULED!! Only ran it for 30 days 50 mg halo-30 mg epi. Gained 16 scale lbs while losing bf. This was in August. I was thinking of running the same for 6-8 weeks at 75(maybe 100) mg halo-60 mg epi. I was also thinking of doing it with phera instead of the epi. I haven't tried phera yet either stacked or solo so I don't know what to expect. What do you guys think would be the better stack?
 
what about a

SD 10mg wk 1-4
Halo 75-90mg wk 1-6

stack. what do you guys think for lean mass


600ALT on SD, what dose did you run? and for how long. This is way above normal right
 
qwerty33 said:
what about a

SD 10mg wk 1-4
Halo 75-90mg wk 1-6

stack. what do you guys think for lean mass


600ALT on SD, what dose did you run? and for how long. This is way above normal right
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I took p-plex by CEL for 3 weeks. I dosed it at 20mg/day for a few days. Felt nothing at all whatsoever. I had tons of calories, sleep, everything right. My BP didn't budge. Ramped up to 50mg/day...nothing, zero pumps, zero gains. actually lost weight from stopping creatine. I started developing butterfly type anxiety in my stomach. It became really intense out of no-where. After assuming I had a bad batch, I switched to M-drol. I ran M-drol for 7 days at 10mg/day. Ramped up to 15mg for 2 more days. On the 9th day, I took ephedra before the gym. After the ephedra crashed, I couldn't sleep for 2 days and had insane anxiety, depression, mood swings. Went to the doc, had enzymes checked, they were 600alt, 550ast.

They thought I had hepititis. Had a liver ultrasound. Everything looked fine. Bilirubin was normal. Alkalyne phosphate was normal. 2 weeks later I retested and my levels were 250's/200's. 2 weeks later I test and levels were back to perfectly normal.

I think CEL labs is a load of bullcrap. I don't trust them for a second. That P-plex was complete bunk. It did NOTHING but make me anxious. And why the hell were my enymes that high!

According to many docs, 500+ is not really that bad. People with liver malfunction and hepittis have levels over 10,000. Not many people test their levels On-cycle...I wouldn't be suprised if levels are higher than expected on cycle.
 
monsterbox said:
I took p-plex by CEL for 3 weeks. I dosed it at 20mg/day for a few days. Felt nothing at all whatsoever. I had tons of calories, sleep, everything right. My BP didn't budge. Ramped up to 50mg/day...nothing, zero pumps, zero gains. actually lost weight from stopping creatine. I started developing butterfly type anxiety in my stomach. It became really intense out of no-where. After assuming I had a bad batch, I switched to M-drol. I ran M-drol for 7 days at 10mg/day. Ramped up to 15mg for 2 more days. On the 9th day, I took ephedra before the gym. After the ephedra crashed, I couldn't sleep for 2 days and had insane anxiety, depression, mood swings. Went to the doc, had enzymes checked, they were 600alt, 550ast.

They thought I had hepititis. Had a liver ultrasound. Everything looked fine. Bilirubin was normal. Alkalyne phosphate was normal. 2 weeks later I retested and my levels were 250's/200's. 2 weeks later I test and levels were back to perfectly normal.

I think CEL labs is a load of bullcrap. I don't trust them for a second. That P-plex was complete bunk. It did NOTHING but make me anxious. And why the hell were my enymes that high!

According to many docs, 500+ is not really that bad. People with liver malfunction and hepittis have levels over 10,000. Not many people test their levels On-cycle...I wouldn't be suprised if levels are higher than expected on cycle.
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Yeah, I think I remember you talking about that CEL deal...

I am just not so sure about the later clones of DMT containing products. I know I was a AX phera whore, ran it 3 times total (i said two a few months ago but forgot i did it 3 times) and it was PERFECTTTTTTTTT each time. The strength was solid but not much size, which I was never concerned about. I spent many years at 235ish and it wrecked havoc on my spine and knees (not my natural weight). I think i gained a total of 20-25lbs between the 3 cycles. But strength was unreal...that was the first back injury though, dead'n out 455lb.

I have never really been a fan of the newer versions of any drug, even AXs, i was very skeptical about the quality of the drug. There have been so many instances where machines are not being cleaned correctly and products getting spiked (so the excuse goes) until I have completely forgotten about using any new age designer. If I ever go back to the enhanced path, I'll just use my doctor buds and get script meds.
 
I am walking a guy through a cycle now with Estane and results are OK. I walked a guy through a cycle of havoc and results were tremendous. I don't know. Perhaps the estane was a bad batch or all the products are bunk...I can't say surely though.
 
To add to the thread though, I've used toremifene 4 times. I have gotten blood work just before PCT, and shortly after PCT but all have been consistent with previous blood works.

I've used it after 3 phera runs, my 2nd M1T run(this was years ago). I've never had liver issues nor any other libido loss issues, T levels always returned to normal or just above also.
 
have any of you guys been test ON cycle...not after PCT.

Like I said, after PCT my enzymes were perfect. You would have never guessed. During cycle they were through the roof!

Im not moaning and pissing about steroids being bad. RPN havoc is beautiful.
 
hardknock said:
To add to the thread though, I've used toremifene 4 times. I have gotten blood work just before PCT, and shortly after PCT but all have been consistent with previous blood works.

I've used it after 3 phera runs, my 2nd M1T run(this was years ago). I've never had liver issues nor any other libido loss issues, T levels always returned to normal or just above also.
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just curious, where in alabama are you from? I live in alabama...i'm from birmingham.
 
monsterbox said:
have any of you guys been test ON cycle...not after PCT.

Like I said, after PCT my enzymes were perfect. You would have never guessed. During cycle they were through the roof!

Im not moaning and pissing about steroids being bad. RPN havoc is beautiful.
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I sort of have but that was from a high dose run of MMV2, i don't really think that counts. The only thing that was abnormal then was that my red blood cells were much higher than range. Once again, I highly doubt MMV2 counts in this discussion.
 
The liver itself has a tremendous ability to bounce back. When you look at alcoholics who pound their liver with whiskey and liquor daily for YEARS and then after they quit, they are in pretty stable condition. Not saying that their liver is great but compared to 2-3 cycles per year vs heavy drinking all year, every year....I'd say it takes either a preexisting condition or an unbelievable amount of steroids to permanently damage it.

Pretty much like these goof balls whom consume SD for 8 weeks double dosed. The one's we see on youtube crying about a lawsuit. Even these idiots have normal levels (i read of 2 guys) after several months of ceasing the drug.
 
The first time I did the typical 120 first few days, 90, then, 60, all the way down to 30 for 4 weeks.

The next 3 times it was like

60 - 30/30 split (10 days)
30 - 15/15 split (10 days)
15 - 15 ed (10 days)

Then I usually run 15mgED for another 10-15 days

So, at least 3 times (2 im sure of, can't remember the 3rd time exactly) I have run it for well past a month and never had any liver issues, libido, nor anxiety issues nor MAJOR estro issues. However, I can say that estro was abnormal on my PCT in 06'. If i can find the work, I'll post the numbers but this was in 2006 so I do not exactly know where they are especially since i've moved twice since then.


Call me crazy but it's worked thus far. However, I don't use steroidal substances (actual steroids) anymore but that was my run back when. I have used LGs products (mmv2/3) but honestly, that's for another discussion
 
That protocol up there is what a doc recommended. he actually USED steroids in his medical school days, GO FIGURE THAT..lol. I miss that guy, he moved to freaking Australia in 08'
 
This is a top thread. Very solid contributions - excellent read.

crazyfool405 said:
clomid
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For test boosting this will give a sure fire result without doubt.

For minimal sides (which is the thread) torem and it might help with prostrate support long term.

What MonsterBox is saying is very interesting. MonsterBox clearly hasn't had gyno problems, what we're talking here is straight test boosting. Nolva worries me ... sure no sides/ low sides its the possible long term liver trouble it might cause, but its gotta be route 1 if gyno is suspected?
 
crazyfool405 said:
torem isnt as good on lipid profiles which is nedded Post cycle as well. so tamox is better for that, and the sides are the same for the most part. and you need a much higher dose of torem. to = that of tamox
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Thats a very interesting point. Nolva vs. torem lipid profiles
 
Well as far as torem lipid profiles I will post my blood work 2 weeks after my pct, I am 3 days into pct running torem 40mg ed with the TRS, I am having the sickest dreams...mostly involving naked chicks which is pretty cool
 
Philly ... just returned. "Language Rooms" play on Broad Street is pretty cool as is the so called "Picasso" exhibit. Philly cheese steak bit bland.

Keep us posted.
 
The key is to know where to go to get the good cheese steaks, the popular places like pats or genos are the worst, they suck

Next time you come eat at "steves prince of steaks"

As far as pct I am enjoying it, if feel so better since I'm done with the epi
 
how should tamox be run pct after a 3 week alpha one cycle? anyone know if it would be best to throw in a ai two weeks into pct? 5 week pct for 3 week cycle? any info would really help tuesday is my last day of alpha one
 
AW123nathan said:
how should tamox be run pct after a 3 week alpha one cycle? anyone know if it would be best to throw in a ai two weeks into pct? 5 week pct for 3 week cycle? any info would really help tuesday is my last day of alpha one
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bud, there are many threads about Nolva...the title of this thread is Toremifene! please stick to the topic at hand and don't hijack the thread.
 
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