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Foods that will kill you

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Saving to watch after work, but initial impression, wow, didn't know Thomas Edison was so diet savvy.
 
sorry, not trying to be disrespectful but I'm not the type to watch an hr video.
Can someone please summarize it, thanks, if not oh well. :D
 
also check out the gerson therapy the man was a genius, caring diabetes and cancer in patients back to the 1950s by altering the diet, more info at gerson.org
 
omg this is scary!!

He says you only need about 40g protein a DAY.

More than that and you're damaging your liver and washing way calcium.

:'( Who do I trust??
 
Its basically vegetarian propaganda with a chunkload of facts.


Even though a lot of stuff he says is true...i'm scared when he talks about ALL animal meats, he says beef, chicken, fish, lamb, turkey and all meats are terrible for your body and should be avoided at all costs.

He does present valid arguments but ... i'm still skeptical, I would like to see our fellow dietitians from the forum to clarify this a bit more.
 
Well now that we know Which amino Acid is key to growth (leucine) do we really need to get leucine from meat. I get it in soy shakes, nuts and amaranth quinoa . I want to be big but don't want to crock over too lol. If I had to pick my posion I'd rather live long vs live big and die.
 
I think per serving is what he is talking about. Iv seen the studies done on 40 grams vs 90 grams and 40 was just as good as 90 grams plus it's the leucine that triggers mps.

FilipeBR said:
omg this is scary!!

He says you only need about 40g protein a DAY.

More than that and you're damaging your liver and washing way calcium.

:'( Who do I trust??
Click to expand...
 
Too long, watched for a few minutes and he already seems like a quack. It also looks to be quite an old video. Recently I have read alot of things that blame grains as the cause for many of our modern diseases. I believe we were made to eat meat, and lots of it. Along with whatever we could forage, fruits, veggies, nuts etc. Basically a Paleo diet.
 
rckvl7 said:
Too long, watched for a few minutes and he already seems like a quack. It also looks to be quite an old video. Recently I have read alot of things that blame grains as the cause for many of our modern diseases. I believe we were made to eat meat, and lots of it. Along with whatever we could forage, fruits, veggies, nuts etc. Basically a Paleo diet.
Click to expand...

Basically what he did was compare a lion(carnivore) to a horse (herbivore) and a human (which he claims to be 100% made to be a herbivore)

He shows how the intestine length in a horse is compared to the size of a human, and how the lion's is MUCH bigger.


Also the acidity in a human's stomach compared to a lion is much less.

He said that lion's fangs are made to bite on meat, ours just isnt, and how our teeth structure is also like a horse's ...


Well summing it all up, he used numerous charts and comparisons to prove that people who eat meat are unhealthy and those who eat grains, fruits and leaves alone are much healthier.


My conclusion is...even though he is right on a certain degree...Americans DO CONSUME A LOT of meat, which is terrible because of Sat Fats.

BUT at the same time, I don't feel why I should stop eating lean cuts of beef, chicken and fish.

He talks about diseases in meats but uh....there are MANY diseases that come from grains and greens as well...so...
 
Think about it. We know Leucine is the key here for muscle growth so why eat meat.


Food proteins are broken down by the human body into their building blocks, amino acids. The amino acids are then used to build new proteins. Proteins consist of 28 amino acids. We manufacture 19 amino acids in our livers. Nine essential amino acids must be obtained from the foods we eat. Many people believe that animal and plant proteins are exactly the same. That is not true. One of those "essential" amino acids is methionine. One needs methionine for many human metabolic functions including digestion, detoxification of heavy metals, and muscle metabolism. However, an excess of methionine can be toxic and create that acid condition in your blood. The center atom of methionine is sulfur. That's the problem. Eat foods containing too much methionine, and your blood will become acidic. The sulfur converts to sulfates and weak forms of sulfuric acid. In order to neutralize the acid, in its wisdom, the body leaches calcium from bones.

"Dietary protein increases production of acid in the blood which can be neutralized by calcium mobilized from the skeleton." {American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 1995;
61,4}

Animal proteins contain more methionine than plant proteins.
Let's compare cow's milk to soymilk:

Methionine in 100 grams of soymilk: .040 grams
Methionine in 100 grams of whole milk: .083 grams
Methionine in 100 grams of skim milk: .099 grams

Now, let's compare 100 gram portions of tofu to meat:
(All of the meat products are lean and without skin)

Silken soft tofu: .074 grams of methionine
Hamburger: .382 grams of methionine
Hard boiled egg: .392 grams of methionine
Roast ham: .635 grams of methionine
Baked codfish: .779 grams of methionine
Swiss cheese .784 grams of methionine
Roast chicken: .901 grams of methionine

Why do nations with the highest rates of bone disease also have the highest milk consumption rates? The highest rates of osteoporosis are to be found in America, Denmark, Holland, Norway, and Sweden.

That would be another reason why not to consume animal products even in small dosages.

So if the key to recap is good fats and leucine for growth with vitamins and minerals why not. If scientifically we figured it out what is stopping us?
 
Sorry, but a big and strong vegan is a rare creature. Also there is not enough research to say a high protein diet will cause bone loss. In fact some studies indicate that high protein and high calcium intake is optimal for bone growth, and that insufficient amounts of either protein or calcium will result in bone loss.
 
Possibly combining the two but protein alone is not sufficnt enough.
 
you guys have to remember that you can get protein from other sources than just meat, egg protein is one of the best types to take
 
This is going no where because everyone knows you can break apart and find something wrong with anything... but if u are even considering not eating meat then you shouldn't be on this site!!!! Does anyone agree? The key in eliminating risk is moderation just like everything else... but i don't see anyone getting huge by eating greens only its just ludacris! Does anyone know why there is a multitude of animals on this earth? To eat!!!!!!!!!
 
FilipeBR said:
My conclusion is...even though he is right on a certain degree...Americans DO CONSUME A LOT of meat, which is terrible because of Sat Fats.
Click to expand...

wrong, because without saturated fats you'd have no sex hormone production.

Again as with so many other things, the systems involved are so complex that anyone who tries to do a "Eureka I have the answer for everyone on the planet" is just full of crap.

Man is an omnivore, we are adapted to a diet that includes meats, before the dawn of the use of fire to cook foods it would have been basically impossible to get complete protein from a vegetarian diet.
 
Dang, this video is OLD. I'm sure some of the information is accurate, but once they said to not eat animal fats.... Yeah, I like steak a lot. Enough not to care if it gives me steak cancer in 50 years.

I'm all about bodybuilding for a better physique rather than bodybuilding for sheer health benefits. I do eat healthy, but I'm not going to sacrifice foods I love to eat when I'm not even doing competitions. If you enjoy eating certain foods, why not enjoy them? Just maybe not as much as the next guy/girl...

In my experiences, you can stay in good shape and lean even if you're eating the "good foods." Sometimes you may get a little smoothed out, but it's nothing that can't be fixed in a short amount of time if you really care that much. I mean, I wouldn't recommend eating ribeyes for every meal, but a life without animal fats can go F itself.
 
fat is very important to a mans health.about 1 year ago i was playing around with my diet i droped my fat intake to 10%. after 2 weeks i knew it was not right i feel bad.went back up to 20% things came back to normal.
 
Man didn't fight his way to the top of the food chain just to become a vegetarian!

I am eating my daily amount of critters BAh!
Lets say I eat 2 lbs of chicken a day, heck a full chicken alive weights what 8-10lbs, that means I am eating 78 per year.... I am quite proud of that and cant wait till I am big enough I need to eat 100 just to keep from muscular atrophy
 
djbombsquad said:
Think about it. We know Leucine is the key here for muscle growth so why eat meat.


Food proteins are broken down by the human body into their building blocks, amino acids. The amino acids are then used to build new proteins. Proteins consist of 28 amino acids. We manufacture 19 amino acids in our livers. Nine essential amino acids must be obtained from the foods we eat. Many people believe that animal and plant proteins are exactly the same. That is not true. One of those "essential" amino acids is methionine. One needs methionine for many human metabolic functions including digestion, detoxification of heavy metals, and muscle metabolism. However, an excess of methionine can be toxic and create that acid condition in your blood. The center atom of methionine is sulfur. That's the problem. Eat foods containing too much methionine, and your blood will become acidic. The sulfur converts to sulfates and weak forms of sulfuric acid. In order to neutralize the acid, in its wisdom, the body leaches calcium from bones.

"Dietary protein increases production of acid in the blood which can be neutralized by calcium mobilized from the skeleton." {American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 1995;
61,4}

Animal proteins contain more methionine than plant proteins.
Let's compare cow's milk to soymilk:

Methionine in 100 grams of soymilk: .040 grams
Methionine in 100 grams of whole milk: .083 grams
Methionine in 100 grams of skim milk: .099 grams

Now, let's compare 100 gram portions of tofu to meat:
(All of the meat products are lean and without skin)

Silken soft tofu: .074 grams of methionine
Hamburger: .382 grams of methionine
Hard boiled egg: .392 grams of methionine
Roast ham: .635 grams of methionine
Baked codfish: .779 grams of methionine
Swiss cheese .784 grams of methionine
Roast chicken: .901 grams of methionine

Why do nations with the highest rates of bone disease also have the highest milk consumption rates? The highest rates of osteoporosis are to be found in America, Denmark, Holland, Norway, and Sweden.

That would be another reason why not to consume animal products even in small dosages.

So if the key to recap is good fats and leucine for growth with vitamins and minerals why not. If scientifically we figured it out what is stopping us?
Click to expand...

Once milk is pasturized it loses nearly all its nutritional value, ie calcium - milk needs to be straight from the cow to get the full nutritional value.. but im a human, i don't drink milk from a cow. If you are looking for bone disease look for things like soda, and not doing weigh baring exercises, and the fact milk calcium isn't absorbed by the body very easily anyway.......... I would stay away from FLOUR, BREAD, PASTA mainly... I eat meat cuz I love the taste, and i know its not bad for me unless in high dosage, and we all know anything abused isn't good for you. I won't stop eating meat until I die -- free range, organic meat is GREAT for you... the kind most people eat isn't..
 
I thought Leucine being the powerhouse amino for muscle building has long been established as common knowledge. It was my understanding that the only dichotomy was whether Leucine is effective as a stand alone, or/only effective when combined with it's fellow friends Iso-leucine and L-valine.

Also, regardless of your religious point of view on man's origins, there's a general consensus that we came from tribal peoples of hunters & gather's to some degree. Hunter's weren't hunting down tree's and there weren't any dietitians deferring them from eating the deer they just caught.

If we weren't "meant" to eat meat and true to it's definition that meat should not be entering our bodies, then we wouldn't produce the enzymes that break them down for energy so effectively.

We can't sustain ourselves from eating plastic, metal or rocks because we lack the appropriate enzymes to convert it to energy.

I think we as American's do consume more meat then we should and I believe the principle of balance and everything in moderation are the bottom line, but this whole "we shouldn't be eating meat," is silly, especially considering how how many functions good & bad fats serve for our bodies.
 
Yes we (Americans) do consume way more than necessary.

Heck I did some quick math in my head last night while we were watching the superbowl.
My mom cooks up some nice steaks, each one at a 1lb each all ribeye very juicy, everyone sits down and eats the entire thing, after that they eat hotdogs and burgers...

I took my steak cut of 4 oz of it ate that yesterday, heck I am eating some today.... 4oz after cooked was really more like 6-7 oz before cooked. That in itself (my family and friends) were getting about (around 1500 calories in meat alone!) 90grams of protein in a 2 hour span. That is a prefect example of how the average american eats way to much meat.
 
I am Jewish and as some people are religous here religiously speaking too we never ate a animals if you go by the bible. I know not all people here are religious so it would not pertain to you but any one that is Jewish and even christian for that matter from a blibical stand point we never ate animals.
As far as sex hormorns.
If your baseing your life around sex i.e test estrogen, progestron, I can get that via herbs etc supplementation trt.
 
Nothing against organic foods or meats but:
Here is Penn and Tellers BullSh*t take on it.
Two different Vids.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zqe4ZV9LDs"]YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.[/nomedia]

Wish I knew how to embed these videos.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENF-2RWIGQw"]YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.[/nomedia]
 
I don't want to make this to religious but even stright from the bible.

And God said: "Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree that has seed-yielding fruit--to you it shall be for food." (Gen.1:29)
God's initial intention was that people should be vegetarians. The famous Jewish Torah commentator, Rashi (1040-1105), states the following about God's first dietary law:
God did not permit Adam and his wife to kill a creature and to eat its flesh. Only every green herb shall they all eat together.
 
djbombsquad said:
I don't want to make this to religious but even stright from the bible.

And God said: "Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree that has seed-yielding fruit--to you it shall be for food." (Gen.1:29)
God's initial intention was that people should be vegetarians. The famous Jewish Torah commentator, Rashi (1040-1105), states the following about God's first dietary law:
God did not permit Adam and his wife to kill a creature and to eat its flesh. Only every green herb shall they all eat together.
Click to expand...

Like almost anything bible or religion related, you can pick and choose sections that support your view regardless of what it is.

Genesis 9:1-3 says: "Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. The fear and dread of you will fall upon all of the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands. Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, now I give you everything."

Luke 24:42-43, "And they gave him (Jesus) a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them."

Romans 14:2-3, "One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The mans who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him."
 
Well yes in the new testament they may have eaten aniamls and look at there how long the lived.

Many other Torah commentators agree with this assessment, including Abraham Ibn Ezra (1092-1167), Maimonides (1135-1214), Nachmanides (1194-1270), and Rabbi Joseph Albo (died in 1444). Later scholars, such as Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch (1808-1888), Moses Cassuto (1883-1951), and Nehama Leibowitz (1905-1997), concur. Cassuto, for example, in his commentary From Adam to Noah (p. 58) states:
You are permitted to use the animals and employ them for work, have dominion over them in order to utilize their services for your subsistence, but must not hold their life cheap nor slaughter them for food. Your natural diet is vegetarian... [2]
The above opinions are consistent with the Talmud, which states that people were initially vegetarians: "Adam was not permitted meat for purposes of eating." [3] things changed as the bible went further on.
 
The great 13th century Jewish philosopher Nachmanides stated that the reason
behind this initial dietary law was:
Living creatures possess a moving soul and a certain spiritual superiority which in this respect make them similar to those who possess intellect (people) and they have the power of affecting their welfare and their food and they flee from pain and death. [4]
According to the Jewish philosopher Rabbi Joseph Albo, the reason is that "In
the killing of animals there is cruelty, rage, and the accustoming of oneself to the bad habit of shedding innocent blood..." [5]
God's first dietary law is a unique statement in humanity's spiritual history
It is a spiritual blueprint of a vegetarian world order. Yet how many millions of people have read this Torah verse (Gen. 1:29) and passed it by without considering its meaning?
After stating that people were to adhere to a vegetarian diet, the Torah next
indicates that animals were not to prey on one another but were also to have only vegetarian food:
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is a living soul, [I have given] every green herb for food. (Gen. 1:30)
Immediately after giving these dietary laws, God saw everything that he had made and "behold, it was very good" (Gen. 1:31). Everything in the universe was as God wanted it, with nothing superfluous and nothing lacking, a complete harmony. [6] The vegetarian diet was consistent with God's initial plan.
There are other indications in early chapters of Genesis that people originally were to be sustained on vegetarian diets:
And the Lord God commanded the man, saying: "of every tree of the garden, thou mayest freely eat..." (Gen.2:16)
"...and thou shalt eat the herbs of the field." (Gen. 3:18)
 
Chapter 5 of Genesis tells of the long lives of people in the generations of the vegetarian period from Adam to Noah. Adam lived 930 years; Seth (Adam's son) lived 912 years; Enosh (Seth's son) lived 905 years; Kenan (Enosh's son) lived 910 years; and so on, until Methuselah, who lived 969 years, the longest time of life recorded in the Torah. After the flood, people lived for much shorter periods. Abraham, for example, lived only 175 years.
Why the tremendous change in life spans? Before the flood, people were forbidden to eat meat; after the flood it was permitted (Gen. 9:3). A partial explanation, therefore, may be that it was the change in diet that contributed to the change in life spans. This view was held by the Jewish philosopher and Bible commentator Maimonides. [7] Recent evidence linking heavy meat consumption with several diseases reinforces this point of view. Of course, a shift to sensible vegetarian diets will not increase life spans to anywhere near those of early people, but recent medical evidence indicates that it would lead to an increase in the average span and quality of life.
The strongest support for vegetarianism as a positive ideal anywhere in Torah literature is in the writing of Rabbi Abraham Isaac Hakohen Kook (1865-1935). Rav Kook was the first Chief Rabbi of pre-state Israel and a highly respected and beloved Jewish spiritual leader in the early 20th century. He was a mystical thinker, a forceful writer, and a great Torah scholar. His powerful words on vegetarianism are found primarily in his A Vision of Vegetarianism and Peace (edited by Rabbi David Cohen, 'The Nazir').
 
Rav Kook believes that the permission to eat meat was only a temporary concession; he feels that a God who is merciful to his creatures would not institute an everlasting law permitting the killing of animals for food. [8] He states:
The progress of dynamic ideals will not be eternally blocked. Through general, moral and intellectual advancement, "when they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother saying, Know the Lord; for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them" (Jeremiah 32:34) shall the latent aspiration of justice for the animal kingdom come out into the open, when the time is ripe. [9]
People are not always ready to live up to God's highest ideals. By the
time of Noah, humanity had degenerated greatly. "And God saw the earth, and behold it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth" (Gen. 6:12). People had sunk so low that they would eat a limb torn from a living animal. As a concession to people's weakness, [10] permission to eat meat was then given:
Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you; as the green herb have I given you all. (Gen. 9:3)
According to Rav Kook, because people had sunk to an extremely low level
of spirituality, it was necessary that they be given an elevated image of themselves as compared to animals, and that they concentrate their efforts into first improving relationships between people. He felt that were people denied the right to eat meat, they might eat the flesh of human beings due to their inability to control their lust for flesh. He regards the permission to slaughter animals for food as a "transitional tax" or temporary dispensation until a "brighter era" is reached when people would return to vegetarian diets. [11]
R. Joseph Albo indicates that in the era before the flood people developed the mistaken belief that the reason that they were not permitted to
eat meat was that human beings and animals were on the same moral level and therefore that human beings were no more responsible for their actions than were animals. Albo believed that such a view led to moral degeneracy and ultimately the flood. After the flood, the prohibition against eating meat was lifted so that human beings would realize that they were on a higher level than animals, and that they therefore have a greater degree of responsibility. [12] However, the laws of kashrut later greatly limited people's permission to eat meat.
 
Isaak Hebenstreit was a Polish rabbi who wrote Kivrot Hata'avah (the Graves of Lust) in 1929. He states that God never wanted people to eat meat,
because of the cruelty involved; people shouldn't kill any living thing and fill their stomachs by destroying others. He believed that God temporarily gave permission to eat meat because of the conditions after the flood, when all plant life had been destroyed. [13]
Just prior to granting Noah and his family permission to eat meat, God states:
And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, and upon all wherewith the ground teemeth, and upon all the fish of the sea: into your hand are they delivered. (Gen. 9:2)
Now that there is permission to eat animals, no longer do people and animals work together in harmony, but living creatures fear and dread human beings. Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch, an outstanding nineteenth-century Torah
commentator, stated that the attachment between people and animals was broken which initiated a change in the relationship of people to the world. [14]
The permission given to Noah to eat meat was not unconditional. There was
an immediate prohibition against eating blood:
"Only flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat." (Gen. 9:4)
Similar statements are made in Leviticus 19:26, 17:10,12 and Deuteronomy 12:16,23,25, and 15:23. The Torah identifies blood with life: "...for the blood is the life" (Deut. 12:23). Life must already have departed from the animal before it can be eaten.
A modern rabbi, Samuel Dresner, commenting on the dietary laws indicates:
The removal of blood which kashrut teaches is one of the most powerful means of making us constantly aware of the concession and compromise which the whole act of eating meat, in reality, is. Again it teaches us reverence for life. [15]
 
Biblical commentator Rabbi Moses Cassuto states:
Apparently the Torah was in principle opposed to the eating of meat. When Noah and his descendants were permitted to eat meat this was a concession conditional on the prohibition of the blood. This prohibition implied respect for the principle of life ("for the blood is the life") and an allusion to the fact that in reality all meat should have been prohibited. This partial prohibition was designed to call to mind the previously total one. [16]
Immediately after permission was given to eat meat, God states, "And surely, your blood of your lives will I require" (Gen. 9:5). The rabbis base
the prohibition of suicide on these words. [17] But coming directly after flesh is allowed, a vegetarian might reason that this passage hints that eating meat is a slow form of suicide. Perhaps God is warning us: "I prefer that you do not eat meat. But, if you must eat meat, there will be a penalty--your life blood will I require." [18] That is, your life will be shortened by eating something that you were not meant to eat. In other words, if people choose to live in violence, by slaughtering and eating animals, they must pay a penalty
Note that this speculation is consistent with the decrease in biblical life spans that occurred after permission to eat meat was given and also with modern research in health and nutrition.
According to Isaac Arama (1420-1494), author of Akedat Yitzchak, and others, after the Israelites left Egypt, God tried to establish another non- meat diet, manna. [19] The Torah introduces the story of the manna with the following Divine message which Moses was to convey to the Israelites in response to their concern about what they would eat in the desert:
God said to Moses, "Behold! I shall rain down for you food from heaven; and the people shall go out and gather a certain portion every day . . . " (Exod. 16:4).
Manna is described in the Torah as a vegetarian food, "like coriander seed" (Num. 11:7). The rabbis of the Talmud stated that the manna had whatever taste and flavor the eater desired at the time of eating. It must also have had sufficient nutrient value because Moses stated that "It is the bread which the Lord hath given you to eat" (Exod. 16:15).
Rabbi J. H. Hertz comments on the manna: "God in His ever-sustaining providence fed Israel's host during the weary years of wandering in His own unsearchable way." [20]
The manna taught the Children of Israel several lessons, which are significant from a vegetarian point of view.
(1) God provides for our needs; manna was available for each day's requirements. In the same way, vegetarian diets could result in enough food for all. A meat dish leads to scarcity of food for some and the potential for violence
(this will be considered more in lesson 5).
(2) We should be content with what we have. [21] Each person was to gather one omer (a measure of manna), but some gathered more and some less. When they measured it out, they found that whether they had gathered much or little, they had just enough to meet their needs, as it is written, "They gathered out an omer, and he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; everyone according to his eating had they gathered" (Exodus 16:18).
 
Again however, we live in the world after Noah, where god expressly told us to eat animals as well. Men drawing conclusions that the lifespans changed afterwards because of eating meat is their own opinion, but god's word was to eat the animals as well.
 
Again, a vegetarian diet would provide enough for everyone's needs. With a meat-centered diet, the few eat more than they need, and many millions are malnourished.
(3) Enough was provided on Friday morning so that there was no need to gather manna on the Sabbath. The people were commanded to rest on the seventh day. (see Exodus 16:5, 22-30.)
With a vegetarian diet, people would not need to struggle continually for their means of subsistence. They would be able truly to rest, to have a peaceful Sabbath, knowing that their needs would be met and that there is no reason to struggle for necessities.
The people were not satisfied, however, with the simple diet of manna, which sustained them in the desert. The Children of Israel complained, "Would that we were given flesh to eat." (Num. 11:4) They said they remembered the fish and other good food that they believed they had had in Egypt, but now they had only manna to eat. The Lord was very angry and Moses was displeased. Finally, God provided meat in the form of quail, which were brought by a wind from the sea. While the flesh was in their mouths, before it was chewed, the anger of God was kindled against the people; He struck them with a great plague (Num. 11:4-33).
 
Note the following key points from a vegetarian point of view:
(1) God wanted the people to be sustained on manna; He was very angry when
they cried for flesh to eat.
(2) God did provide meat, but a plague broke out among the people. Perhaps this incident was designed to teach people that they should not eat meat, and if they did, it would have very negative consequences.
(3) The place where this incident occurred was named "The Graves of Lust,"
to indicate that the lust for flesh led to the many deaths (Num. 11:34). While the manna, their staple food in the desert, kept them in good health for forty years, many deaths occurred when they deviated from this simple diet.
When the Israelites were in the wilderness, animals could only be slaughtered and eaten as part of the sacrificial service in the sanctuary (Leviticus 17:3-5). The eating of "unconsecrated meat", meat from cattle slaughtered for private consumption was not permitted. Every meat meal therefore was an integral part of a sacrificial rite. Maimonides states that
the sacrifices were a concession to the primitive practices of the nations at that time. [22] The biblical sacrifices will be discussed in more detail later.
Finally God permitted people to eat meat even if it was not part of a sacrificial offering:
When the Lord thy God shall enlarge thy border as He hath promised thee, and thou shalt say: "I will eat flesh," because thy soul desireth to eat flesh; thou mayest eat flesh, after all the desire of thy soul. (Deut. 12:20)
 
This permitted meat was called b'sar ta'avah, "meat of lust," so named because, as the following rabbinic teachings indicate, meat is not considered a necessity for life. [23] The above verse does not command people to eat meat. Rabbinic tradition perceives it to indicate that it is people's desire to eat flesh and not God's edict that people do so. Even while arguing against vegetarianism as a moral cause, Rabbi Elijah Judah Schochet, author of Animal Life in Jewish Tradition, (1984), concedes that "Scripture does not command the Israelite to eat meat, but rather permits this diet as a concession to lust." [24] Similarly, another critic of vegetarian activism, Rabbi J. David Bleich, a noted modern Torah scholar and professor at Yeshiva University, concedes, "The implication is that meat may be consumed when there is desire and appetite for it as food, but may be eschewed when there is not desire and, a fortiori, when it is found to be repugnant." [25] In short, again according to Rabbi Bleich, "Jewish tradition does not command carnivorous behavior..." [26] Commenting on the above Torah verse (Deut. 12:20), modern Torah scholar and teacher Nehama Leibowitz points out how odd the dispensation is and how grudgingly permission to eat meat is granted. She concludes that people have not been granted dominion over the animal kingdom to do with them anything that we desire, but that we have been given a "barely tolerated dispensation", if we cannot resist temptation and must eat meat, to slaughter animals for our consumption. [27]
Rav Kook also regards the same Torah verse as clearly indicating that the Torah did not regard the slaughter of animals for human consumption as an ideal state of affairs. [28] Rabbi I. Hebenstreit points out that God did not want to give the Israelites who had left Egypt permission to return to a diet involving meat, due to the cruelty involved. However, the "mixed multitude" (other slaves who left Egypt with the Jews) lusted for meat and inculcated this desire among the Jewish people. Hence, God again reluctantly gave permission for the consumption of meat, but with many restrictions. [29] The negative connotation associated with the consumption of meat is indicated in the Talmud:
The Torah teaches a lesson in moral conduct, that man shall not eat meat unless he has a special craving for it...and shall eat it only occasionally and sparingly. [30]
The sages also felt that eating meat was not for everyone:
Only a scholar of Torah may eat meat, but one who is ignorant of Torah is forbidden to eat meat. [31]
Based on this prohibition, how many Jews today can consider themselves so scholarly as to be able to eat meat? Those who do diligently study the Torah and are aware of conditions related to the production and consumption of meat today would, I believe, come to conclusions similar to those in this article.
 
It should be noted that the above stricture reflected concern for the scrupulous observance of the many technicalities of the laws of kashrut. While there are few conditions on the consumption of vegetarian foods, only a
diligent Torah scholar can fathom the myriad regulations governing the eating of meat.
Rabbi Kook believes that the permission to eat meat "after all the desire of your soul" was a concealed reproach and a qualified command. [32] He states that a day will come when people will detest the eating of the flesh of animals because of a moral loathing, and then it shall be said that "because your soul does not long to eat meat, you will not eat meat." [33]
The Torah looks favorably on vegetarian foods. Flesh foods are often mentioned with distaste and are associated with lust (lack of control over one's appetite for meat). In the Song of Songs, the divine bounty is mentioned in terms of fruits, vegetables, vines, and nuts. There is no special b'racha (blessing) recited before eating meat or fish, as there is for other foods such as bread, cake, wine, fruits, and vegetables; the blessing for meat is a general one, the same as that over water or any other undifferentiated food.
Rabbi Yonassan Gershom, a modern Chassidic rebbe from Minnesota, states
that "concerning the priority given to blessings, meat is on the bottom of the hierarchy". He notes that on festivals and Sabbaths, wine comes first. Otherwise, bread comes first, and a blessing over bread covers all other foods except wine. If there is no bread, foods are blessed in the following order: (1) wine, (2) grains, (3) tree fruits, (4) vegetables, (5) all other foods, including fish, meats, etc. In other words, meat has the lowest priority in the b'racha system. Also, when bread is eaten a full bircat hamazon (blessing after meals) is to be recited. For the grains and fruits mentioned
in the Torah (the seven species), there is a shorter blessing recited after meals (al hamichya), but if only other foods such as meat or fish are eaten, only one sentence is to be recited afterwards (borei nefashot). Since, as our sages taught, words have replaced sacrifices today, flesh foods are least honored.
Typical of the Torah's positive depiction of non-flesh foods are the following:
For the Lord thy God bringeth thee into a good land, a land of brooks of water, of fountains and depths, springing forth in valleys and hills; a land of wheat and barley, of vines and fig-trees and pomegranates; a land of olive- trees and honey; a land wherein thou shalt eat bread without scarceness, thou shalt not lack anything in it... And thou shalt eat and be satisfied, and bless the Lord thy God for the good land which He hath given thee. (Deut. 8:7-10)
 
I will give you the rain of your land in its due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou may gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thy oil. (Deut. 11:14)
Among many similar statements by the prophets are:
I shall return my people from captivity, and they shall build up the waste cities and inhabit them, and they shall plant vineyards and drink the wine from them, and they shall make gardens and eat the fruit from them, and I shall plant them upon their land. (Amos 9:14-15)
Build ye houses and dwell in them, and plant gardens and eat the fruit of them. (Jeremiah 29:5)
Along with permission to eat meat, many laws and restrictions (the laws
of kashrut) were given. Rabbi Kook believes that the reprimand implied by these regulations is an elaborate apparatus designed to keep alive a sense of reverence for life, with the aim of eventually leading people away from their meat-eating habit. [34]
This idea is echoed by Torah commentator Solomon Efraim Lunchitz, author
of K'lee Yakar:
What was the necessity for the entire procedure of ritual slaughter? For the sake of self-discipline. It is far more appropriate for man not to eat meat; only if he has a strong desire for meat does the Torah permit it, and even this only after the trouble and inconvenience necessary to satisfy his desire. Perhaps because of the bother and annoyance of the whole procedure, he will be restrained from such a strong and uncontrollable desire for meat. [35]
A similar statement was made by a modern rabbi, Pinchas Peli:
Accordingly, the laws of kashrut come to teach us that a Jew's first preference should be a vegetarian meal. If, however, one cannot control a craving for meat, it should be kosher meat, which would serve as a reminder that the animal being eaten is a creature of God, that the death of such a creature cannot be taken lightly, that hunting for sport is forbidden, that we cannot treat any living thing callously, and that we are responsible for what happens to other beings (human or animal) even if we did not personally come into contact with them. [36]
It was stated earlier that Joseph Albo taught that a reason for the original prohibition against eating meat was because, "in the killing of animals there is cruelty, rage, and the accustoming of oneself to the bad habit of shedding innocent blood . . ." Perhaps the laws of kashrut which limit the eating of meat can therefore be viewed as a path leading people back to the original, non-violent, vegetarian diet. For example, the 15th century Sephardic biblical commentator and leader, the Abarbanel, explains why kosher animals are limited to those that "dividest the hoof . . . and chewest the cud . . ." (Leviticus 11:3). In his commentary on this verse, the Abarbanel advanced his theory that animals that chew the cud are not capable of crushing and chewing up bones. Therefore, they feed on plants and do not have the ferocity of wild animals. Their split hooves are without claws so they are peaceful and relatively harmless. Limiting people to such animals means that
they avoid eating animals with a cruel and violent nature.
 
Rav Kook sees people's craving for meat as a manifestation of negative passions rather than an inherent need. He and Isaac Arama believe that in the days of the Messiah people will again be vegetarians. [37] He states that in the Messianic Epoch, "the effect of knowledge will spread even to animals...and sacrifices in the Temple will consist of vegetation, and it will be pleasing to God as in days of old..." [38] They base this on the prophecy of Isaiah:
And the wolf shall dwell with the lamb, And the leopard shall lie down with the kid; And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little child shall lead them And the cow
and the bear shall feed; Their young ones shall lie down together, And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.... They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain. (Isaiah 11:6-9)
Rabbi Kook believes that the high moral level involved in the vegetarianism of the generations before Noah is a virtue of such great value that it cannot be lost forever. [39] In the future ideal state, just as at the initial period, people and animals will not eat flesh. [40] No one shall hurt nor destroy another living creature. People's lives will not be supported at the expense of the lives of animals.
Other prophetic visions that depict vegetarian diets for people include:
And it shall come to pass in that day that mountains shall drip sweet wine and the hills shall flow with milk. (Joel 4:18)
And the earth shall respond to the corn, the wine, and the oil. (Hosea 2:24)
In his booklet which summarizes many of Rav Kook's teachings, Joe Green, a recent Jewish vegetarian writer, concludes that Jewish religious ethical vegetarians are pioneers of the Messianic era; they are leading lives that make the coming of the Messiah more likely. [41]
Today most Jews eat meat, but the high ideal of God, the initial vegetarian dietary law, still stands supreme in the Torah for Jews and the whole world to see, an ultimate goal toward which all people should strive.
Notes
1. Rashi's commentary on Genesis 1:29. 2. Quoted in Nehama Leibowitz, Studies in Bere**** (Genesis) (Jerusalem: World Zionist Organization (3rd Edition), 1976), p. 77. 3. Sanhedrin 59b. 4. Nachmanides, commentary on Genesis 1:29. 5. Joseph Albo, Sefer ha-Ikkarim, Vol. III., Chapter 15. 6. Rabbi J. H. Hertz, The Pentateuch and Haftorahs (London: Soncino Press, 1958), p. 5; also see Nehama Leibowitz, Studies in Deuteronomy, Jerusalem: World Zionist Organization (3rd Edition), p. 137 7. Maimonides, Moreh Nebuchim II, 47, cited by Nachmanides in his commentary on Genesis 5:4. Also see "Afikim Banegev," in HaPeles (Berlin), 1903-4 and "Tallelei Orot," in Takhkenwni (Berne), 1910, and Nehama Leibowitz, Studies in Deuteronomy, Jerusalem: World Zionist Organization (3rd Edition), pp. 135-142. 8. Leibowitz, Studies in Deuteronomy, p. 138. 9. From Rav Kook's Tallelei Orot (Dewdrops of Light), cited by Leibowitz, Studies in Deuteronomy, p. 138. 10. Rabbi Samuel H. Dresner, The Jewish Dietary Laws, Their Meaning for Our Time (New York: Burning Bush Press,1959), pp. 21-25; Cassuto, commentary on Genesis 1:27. 11. Leibowitz, Studies in Bere****, p. 77. 12. Joseph Albo, Sefer ha-Ikkarim, Vol. III., Chapter 15. 13. Rabbi Isaak Hebenstreit, Graves of Lust (Hebrew), (Rzeszow, Poland, 1929), p. 6. 14. Samson Raphael Hirsch's commentary on Genesis 9:2. 15. Dresner, The Jewish Dietary Laws, p. 29. 16. Quoted by Leibowitz, Studies in Bere****, p. 77. 17. Rashi, based on Midrash Rabbah; also Baba Kamma 91b. 18. This speculation is considered by Pick,"The Source of Our Inspiration," p. 3. 19. See Rabbi Elijah J. Schochet, Animal Life in Jewish Tradition (New York: K'tav), 1984, p. 290; also see S. Clayman, "Vegetarianism, The Ideal of the Bible," The Jewish Vegetarian (Summer, 1967): 136- 137, and Hebenstreit, Kivrot Hata'avah, p. 7. 20. Hertz, Pentateuch and Haftorahs, p. 276. 21. Talmudic sage Ben Zoma taught as follows: "Who is rich? The person who rejoices in his or her portion" (Pirke Avot 4:1). 22. Reverend A. Cohen, The Teaching of Maimonides (New York: Bloch Publishing Co., 1927), p. 180. 23. See Leibowitz, Studies in Deuteronomy, p. 135. 24. Schochet, Animal Life, p. 300. 25. Rabbi J. David Bleich, "Vegetarianism and Judaism", Tradition, Vol. 2 3, No. 1, (Summer, 1987), p. 86. 26.Ibid., p. 87. 27. Leibowitz, Studies in Deuteronomy, p. 136. 28. Ibid. 29. Hebenstreit, Kivrot Hata'avah, p. 9. 30. Chulin 84a. 31. Pesachim 49b. 32. See the discussion in Joe Green, "Chalutzim of the Messiah-The Religious Vegetarian Concept as Expounded by Rabbi Kook", p. 2. 33. Ibid., pp. 2-3. 34. Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook, "Fragments of Light," in Abraham Isaac Kook, ed. and trans. Ben Zion Bokser (New York: Paulist Press,1978), pp. 316-21 35. Quoted in Abraham Chill, The Commandments and Their Rationale, (New York, 1974), p. 400. 36. Rabbi Pinchas Peli, Torah Today (Washington,D.C.: B'nai B'rith Books, 1987), p. 118. 37. Rabbi Alfred Cohen, "Vegetarianism from a Jewish Perspective," Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society, Vol. 1, No. II, (Fall, 1981) p. 45. 38. Olat Rayah, Vol. 1, p. 292. Cited by Cohen, "Vegetarianism...... p. 45. 39. Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook, A Vision of Vegetarianism and Peace. 40. Hertz, Pentateuch and Haftorahs, p. 5. 41. Green, "Chalutzim of the Messiah," 3 p. 1.
 
You just made yourself even less credible than you were before by quoting some fake scriptures........ leave that religious stuff at the door homey

Anthony (2:8:10) And anyman who ventures forth thee into anabolic minds forums, and starts quoting the old, and false scriptures of the past... let him be struck down, by the all mighty TONE from AM... Forth he is the all mighty of vast knowledge, some may say do not listen to him, but you shall never listen to those folks, forth he has all knowledge known to him. Now send him all your money, forth he is the new GOD of AM
 
False what. I quited facts from the bible and even said people switched over to eating animals. Hello. Read it first before jumping to conclusions. Zing.
 
Look we modern Christians go off of the New Testament, not the old testament.... Your bible says one thing, ours says another.... Nobody is going to win at this debate so it would be best just to let it die....
 
djbombsquad said:
False what. I quited facts from the bible and even said people switched over to eating animals. Hello. Read it first before jumping to conclusions. Zing.
Click to expand...

Not everyone believes that the bible is FACT..... To me the bible is as real as an R.L. Stine Goosebumps book I used to read in 5th grade.
 
The fact remains that God himself said it was ok to eat animals.In the OT. Unless you believe he wanted us to get sick and die by his words, than that viewpoint is useless.Vegetarians do not live longer,still get sick and die. In the Bible the MAIN change was that the "circle" of water which was above the earth, deluged it and caused a flood. It seems like that barrier may have been a protective one...perhaps from the sun. God actually said himself that he would limit mans life to 120 years , 120 years before the flood took place. So he limited it by causing the life protecting barrier to come down.
Genesis 6:3-7

God's chosen people ate meat and sacrificed with it. There is no arguing there.
 
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