AAS/PH and Heart Problems?

MadeInCanada

Member
I went in today for my pre-gyno surgery order pickup, which is on Wednesday. I ended up talking to this lady nurse and she gave me this 15 minute speech on how AAS is bad for your heart muscles and heart valves, and how Arnold S had to get a heart valve replacement?

Does anybody have any thoughts on this? And does this include AAS like Anavar and such that are often prescribed?
 
Ask her to show you studies..or at least more evidence than "she heard Arnold had valve surgery."
 
Arnold had a Bicuspid Aortic valve.. a genetic defect which required replacement..
He also AFAIK had bypass surgery which was most likely due to high calories and saturated fats..
Bodybuilding in nature is good for the heart, as long as cardio is combined..
The high calorie diets can be strenuous, but I have also heard that many AAS can be stressfull on the left heart/ventricles myocardium.. however I never checked into the validity of any of this.. However it does make some sense.

BTW Open heart surgery is practically as common today as ****ing apendectomies.. it's routine and thousands get it with no probs- it's scary idea but really NBD..
 
Yes it is bad for your heart and that is very obivious, its like saying cigerettes dont cause cancer. The difference between a doctor precribing them to you is the dosages, he is prescribing healthy normal doses, and we are taking superhuman doses to gain muscle (abuse) . You can think of it as running nitrous through an engine, sooner or later your gonna need to start replacing parts.. For some people thats worth it.
 
citystreets said:
Yes it is bad for your heart and that is very obivious, its like saying cigerettes dont cause cancer. The difference between a doctor precribing them to you is the dosages, he is prescribing healthy normal doses, and we are taking superhuman doses to gain muscle (abuse) . You can think of it as running nitrous through an engine, sooner or later your gonna need to start replacing parts.. For some people thats worth it.
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Citation needed.
 
1) Chief Physician/Senior Cardiologist, Oslo University Hospital – Aker, Trondheimsveien 235, 0514-Oslo University Hospital, Oslo, Norway

Abstract
Abuse of anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) has been linked to a variety of different cardiovascular side effects. In case reports, acute myocardial infarction is the most common event presented, but other adverse cardiovascular effects such as left ventricular hypertrophy, reduced left ventricular function, arterial thrombosis, pulmonary embolism and several cases of sudden cardiac death have also been reported. However, to date there are no prospective, randomized, interventional studies on the long-term cardiovascular effects of abuse of AAS. In this review we have studied the relevant literature regarding several risk factors for cardiovascular disease where the effects of AAS have been scrutinized:
(1) Echocardiographic studies show that supraphysiologic doses of AAS lead to both morphologic and functional changes of the heart. These include a tendency to produce myocardial hypertrophy (Fig. 3), a possible increase of heart chamber diameters, unequivocal alterations of diastolic function and ventricular relaxation, and most likely a subclinically compromised left ventricular contractile function. (2) AAS induce a mild, but transient increase of blood pressure. However, the clinical significance of this effect remains modest. (3) Furthermore, AAS confer an enhanced pro-thrombotic state, most prominently through an activation of platelet aggregability. The concomitant effects on the humoral coagulation cascade are more complex and include activation of both pro-coagulatory and fibrinolytic pathways. (4) Users of AAS often demonstrate unfavorable measurements of vascular reactivity involving endothelial-dependent or endothelial-independent vasodilatation. A degree of reversibility seems to be consistent, though. (5) There is a comprehensive body of evidence documenting that AAS induce various alterations of lipid metabolism. The most prominent changes are concomitant elevations of LDL and decreases of HDL, effects that increase the risk of coronary artery disease. And finally, (6) the use of AAS appears to confer an increased risk of life-threatening arrhythmia leading to sudden death, although the underlying mechanisms are still far from being elucidated. Taken together, various lines of evidence involving a variety of pathophysiologic mechanisms suggest an increased risk for cardiovascular disease in users of anabolic androgenic steroids.

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Androgens will have more sides due to their effects on BP, increased VAT, etc. However, there is a huge difference between use and abuse and it is very difficult to make a definition for it. Everyone always brings up Arnold, but what about all of the other BBers from that era such as Columbu, Zane, Pearl, Draper, etc?
 
Rodja said:
However, there is a huge difference between use and abuse and it is very difficult to make a definition for it.
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Indeed. The definition for one could be fatal. The difference is quite consequential and should not be casually dismissed.
 
David Dunn said:
Indeed. The definition for one could be fatal.
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There are two main conditions that would steer me away from AAS: family history of hypertension and family history of early CVD. Hypertension is heavily influenced by genetics and there is little that can be done for this. AAS, even short-term, is not really worth the risk. Early CVD (e.g. myocardial infarction) is another one that would steer me away from AAS. HCM is the most common culprit and AAS can exacerbate this by increasing BP. Not coincidentally, there is a high correlation between these two conditions.
 
Yes, steroids can contribute to thickening of the heart walls with long term abuse. Most studies say it reverses within 6 months of stopping steroid use though.
 
dpfisher said:
Yes, steroids can contribute to thickening of the heart walls with long term abuse. Most studies say it reverses within 6 months of stopping steroid use though.
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Can you post one of these? I've never heard that HCM is reversible.
 
i'd also like to see a study showing that heart issues from aas are reversible, 6 months seems awful short too. I wonder if you kept your blood pressure and cholesterol readings normalized while on aas if these issues would still remain?
 
neverstop said:
i'd also like to see a study showing that heart issues from aas are reversible, 6 months seems awful short too. I wonder if you kept your blood pressure and cholesterol readings normalized while on aas if these issues would still remain?
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Empirically speaking, we will probably never know. Plus, having biased figures such as Dr. Gary Wadler do not help the cause.
 
MadeInCanada said:
I went in today for my pre-gyno surgery order pickup, which is on Wednesday. I ended up talking to this lady nurse and she gave me this 15 minute speech on how AAS is bad for your heart muscles and heart valves, and how Arnold S had to get a heart valve replacement?

Does anybody have any thoughts on this? And does this include AAS like Anavar and such that are often prescribed?
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all steroids have a serious impact on your cardiovascular system. some more than others, but all of them effect it.
 
Dragon13 said:
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That is far too vague. It doesn't have controlled dosages and/or substances. Plus, since the AAS used was from the black market, it's hard to say what effect, if any, contamination may have played.
 
jbryand101b said:
all steroids have a serious impact on your cardiovascular system. some more than others, but all of them effect it.
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The is a huge body of evidence to support testosterone levels in the upper quadrant of the range actually improve cardiovascular markers.
 
Rodja said:
That is far too vague. It doesn't have controlled dosages and/or substances. Plus, since the AAS used was from the black market, it's hard to say what effect, if any, contamination may have played.
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What? Did you read the whole article?

"Before their cycle started the bodybuilders had their medication checked and analysed by the pharmacological department of the university." So the gear was good, and what in the world does contamination have to do with anything? Are you suggesting that, since the results were favorable reagrding LVH, contamination present in the gear may be a good thing for the heart?? Or that the possible absence of contamination proves a link between contamination and cardiac hypertrophy? What are you saying??

Dosages are not controlled, but again, why does that matter? Gear was used, in some cases heavily. "The weekly doses varied from a few hundred milligrams to more than thousand milligrams." Since it wasn't controlled, we can't draw any conclusions between specific dosages and the results, but that is irrelevant. Far and away the most important thing here is that the LVH reversed during the wash-out period; IOW, to quote directly from the piece once again: "On the other hand, the mean steroid dose of the present cycle was a strong predictor of variables like E/A ratio, ventricular weight of relative wall thickness; ... the deleterious effects wear off during wash out periods."

I think you're a smart dude, Rodja, but it seems to me that, since you admitted you'd never seen data about LVH being reversible, when presented with some evidence, you are choosing to ignore it.
 
David Dunn said:
The is a huge body of evidence to support testosterone levels in the upper quadrant of the range actually improve cardiovascular markers.
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True, although supraphysiological levels are another matter, although as I've contended, the negative effects are more or less constricted to the on-cycle time period.
 
Dragon13 said:
What? Did you read the whole article?

"Before their cycle started the bodybuilders had their medication checked and analysed by the pharmacological department of the university." So the gear was good, and what in the world does contamination have to do with anything? Are you suggesting that, since the results were favorable reagrding LVH, contamination present in the gear may be a good thing for the heart?? Or that the possible absence of contamination proves a link between contamination and cardiac hypertrophy? What are you saying??

Dosages are not controlled, but again, why does that matter? Gear was used, in some cases heavily. "The weekly doses varied from a few hundred milligrams to more than thousand milligrams." Since it wasn't controlled, we can't draw any conclusions between specific dosages and the results, but that is irrelevant. Far and away the most important thing here is that the LVH reversed during the wash-out period; IOW, to quote directly from the piece once again: "On the other hand, the mean steroid dose of the present cycle was a strong predictor of variables like E/A ratio, ventricular weight of relative wall thickness; ... the deleterious effects wear off during wash out periods."

I think you're a smart dude, Rodja, but it seems to me that, since you admitted you'd never seen data about LVH being reversible, when presented with some evidence, you are choosing to ignore it.
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The reason I disregard it is that it is both a very short length study and is not controlled at all. It is a very flawed study. I agree that it is a step in the right direction, but you can hardly call this proof to the bad parameters, small scale, small population, and lack on controls. Also, let's be honest, how many people only do 1 cycle?
 
Rodja said:
The reason I disregard it is that it is both a very short length study and is not controlled at all. It is a very flawed study. I agree that it is a step in the right direction, but you can hardly call this proof to the bad parameters, small scale, small population, and lack on controls. Also, let's be honest, how many people only do 1 cycle?
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In the absence of anything else, the data cannot simply be disregarded because the study was "poorly constructed". Many a study less stringently controlled than this have ended up in peer-reviewed literature.

Further, it is clearly stated that the subjects all had a history of steroid use, ranging "from one to twelve years." Once again I must ask, did you even read the study? :thinking:

Bottom line: steroid users, using real steroids, were monoitored and studied for cardiac abnormalities. These abnormalities appreared. The abnormalities dissipated after discontinuation of use. Perhaps you can't draw anything else from the study other than that, but that alone is a compelling outcome.

Finally, this has come up before, and I posted some other evidence in an older thread. See Invalid Link Removed and scroll to my post (#17) for some more links.
 
Dude. It's your heart and your health. I suggest you start to perform some research.

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Dragon13 said:
In the absence of anything else, the data cannot simply be disregarded because the study was "poorly constructed". Many a study less stringently controlled than this have ended up in peer-reviewed literature.

Further, it is clearly stated that the subjects all had a history of steroid use, ranging "from one to twelve years." Once again I must ask, did you even read the study? :thinking:

Bottom line: steroid users, using real steroids, were monoitored and studied for cardiac abnormalities. These abnormalities appreared. The abnormalities dissipated after discontinuation of use. Perhaps you can't draw anything else from the study other than that, but that alone is a compelling outcome.

Finally, this has come up before, and I posted some other evidence in an older thread. See Invalid Link Removed and scroll to my post (#17) for some more links.
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Yes, I read the review. I stated earlier that androgens, such as PP, have a higher risk because of their effects on BP, etc. The study suggests that the HCM may be reversible, but nothing definitive can be drawn from a single study, particularly one that is very flawed in its design.

I highly doubt that anything of this caliber would make to a more respected journal such as the NE Journal of Medicine. Make no mistake about it, not all journals are the same quality.
 
Rodja said:
Yes, I read the review. I stated earlier that androgens, such as PP, have a higher risk because of their effects on BP, etc. The study suggests that the HCM may be reversible, but nothing definitive can be drawn from a single study, particularly one that is very flawed in its design.

I highly doubt that anything of this caliber would make to a more respected journal such as the NE Journal of Medicine. Make no mistake about it, not all journals are the same quality.
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I give up. Believe what you want. You had asked for evidence as to whether LVH was reversible, I provided some. There is not much out there to definitively prove a point on either side of the debate; if you want to believe that a single cycle, or even a few cycles, will give the user irreversible cardiac damage, be my guest.
 
David Dunn said:
The is a huge body of evidence to support testosterone levels in the upper quadrant of the range actually improve cardiovascular markers.
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true, I should of been more specific, in supratheraputic levels.

CrazyChemist said:
you mean all of them Affect it?
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something like that. lol.

Dragon13 said:
True, although supraphysiological levels are another matter, although as I've contended, the negative effects are more or less constricted to the on-cycle time period.
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this is what I was saying.
 
that is a realllllly cool study. there are precious few studies of any kind that actually include steroids at bodybuilding level doses. thanks for posting that. very very interesting.
 
I have some info to add. I'll try to get it up later.
 
Characterisation of the pharmacological profile of desoxymethyltestosterone (Madol), a steroid misused for doping.

* Diel P,
* Friedel A,
* Geyer H,
* Kamber M,
* Laudenbach-Leschowsky U,
* Schanzer W,
* Thevis M,
* Vollmer G,
* Zierau O.

Center for Preventive Doping Research, Institute of Cardiovascular Research and Sports Medicine, Department of Molecular and Cellular Sports Medicine, German Sports University Cologne, 50927 Cologne, Germany. [email protected]

Desoxymethyltestosterone (DMT), also known as Madol, is a steroid recently identified to be misused as a doping agent. Since, the knowledge of functions of this substance is rather limited, it was our aim to characterise the pharmacological profile of DMT and to identify potential adverse side effects. DMT was synthesised, its purity was confirmed and its biological activity was tested. The potency of Madol (DMT) to transactivate androgen receptor (AR) dependent reporter gene expression was two times lower as compared to dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Receptor binding tests demonstrate that DMT binds with high selectivity to the AR, binding to the progesterone receptor (PR) was low. In vivo experiments in orchiectomised rats demonstrated that treatment with DMT resulted only in a stimulation of the weight of the levator ani muscle; the prostate and seminal vesicle weights remained unaffected. Like testosterone, administration of DMT resulted in a stimulation of IGF-1 and myostatin mRNA expression in the gastrocnemius muscle. In the prostate proliferation was stimulated by TP (testosteronepropionate), but remained unaffected by DMT. Remarkably, treatment with DMT, in contrast to TP, resulted in a significant increase of the heart weight. In the liver, DMT slightly stimulates the expression of the tyrosine aminotransferase gene (TAT). Our results demonstrate that DMT is a potent AR agonist with an anabolic activity. Besides the levator ani weight, DMT also modulates the gene expression in the musculus gastrocnemius. The observed stimulation of TAT expression in the liver and the significant increase of the heart weight after DMT treatment can be taken as an indication for side effects. Summarizing these data it is obvious that DMT is a powerful anabolic steroid with selective androgen receptor modulators (SARM) like properties and some indications for toxic side effects. Therefore, there is a need for a strict control of a possible misuse.

PMID: 17254722 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Invalid Link Removed
 
My guess is like anything, if you are genetically prone to those types of problems, steroids may aggravate it.

Just like if you are prone to prostate swelling or hairloss, you may have more problems in those areas.
 
dpfisher said:
Yes, steroids can contribute to thickening of the heart walls with long term abuse. Most studies say it reverses within 6 months of stopping steroid use though.
Click to expand...

Thickening of the heart walls or of the arteries supplying?

In some cases there are conditions which may not fair to well under heavy prolong dosages ...

I would think that anyone with aortic valve regurgitation, anything above trivial, should steer clear of prolonged/heavy use. Also, if you have issues of lvr I would think it wise to stray away.

High bp can cause these conditions to worsen. (just google any of the thousand studies)
I'm not posting a study from my phone, if you want to google aortic valve regurgitation or left ventricle hyperthropy or regurge, then that's the eaiest way.
 
David Dunn said:
The is a huge body of evidence to support testosterone levels in the upper quadrant of the range actually improve cardiovascular markers.
Click to expand...

Unless it is a substance akin to fina, true fina. Back, years back, in my early days when I was really into the "game", when I would use fina, I could not run around my car without using significant effort. This from a point of being able to run 50yrd sprints when off cycle like it was nothing.
 
David Dunn said:
Characterisation of the pharmacological profile of desoxymethyltestosterone (Madol), a steroid misused for doping.

* Diel P,
* Friedel A,
* Geyer H,
* Kamber M,
* Laudenbach-Leschowsky U,
* Schanzer W,
* Thevis M,
* Vollmer G,
* Zierau O.

Center for Preventive Doping Research, Institute of Cardiovascular Research and Sports Medicine, Department of Molecular and Cellular Sports Medicine, German Sports University Cologne, 50927 Cologne, Germany. [email protected]

Desoxymethyltestosterone (DMT), also known as Madol, is a steroid recently identified to be misused as a doping agent. Since, the knowledge of functions of this substance is rather limited, it was our aim to characterise the pharmacological profile of DMT and to identify potential adverse side effects. DMT was synthesised, its purity was confirmed and its biological activity was tested. The potency of Madol (DMT) to transactivate androgen receptor (AR) dependent reporter gene expression was two times lower as compared to dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Receptor binding tests demonstrate that DMT binds with high selectivity to the AR, binding to the progesterone receptor (PR) was low. In vivo experiments in orchiectomised rats demonstrated that treatment with DMT resulted only in a stimulation of the weight of the levator ani muscle; the prostate and seminal vesicle weights remained unaffected. Like testosterone, administration of DMT resulted in a stimulation of IGF-1 and myostatin mRNA expression in the gastrocnemius muscle. In the prostate proliferation was stimulated by TP (testosteronepropionate), but remained unaffected by DMT. Remarkably, treatment with DMT, in contrast to TP, resulted in a significant increase of the heart weight. In the liver, DMT slightly stimulates the expression of the tyrosine aminotransferase gene (TAT). Our results demonstrate that DMT is a potent AR agonist with an anabolic activity. Besides the levator ani weight, DMT also modulates the gene expression in the musculus gastrocnemius. The observed stimulation of TAT expression in the liver and the significant increase of the heart weight after DMT treatment can be taken as an indication for side effects. Summarizing these data it is obvious that DMT is a powerful anabolic steroid with selective androgen receptor modulators (SARM) like properties and some indications for toxic side effects. Therefore, there is a need for a strict control of a possible misuse.

PMID: 17254722 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Invalid Link Removed
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This is the most widely quoted study on steroid-related heart enlargement that I've seen. I must have seen it quoted dozens of times by now across the various boards.

I don't think anyone disputes the fact that AAS, and perhaps in particular Phera, can enlarge the heart. The question is whether or not this effect is permanent. I believe that it isn't.

hardknock said:
Unless it is a substance akin to fina, true fina. Back, years back, in my early days when I was really into the "game", when I would use fina, I could not run around my car without using significant effort. This from a point of being able to run 50yrd sprints when off cycle like it was nothing.
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Fina is tren, not test. Plus the point being made was test levels in the upper quadrant of normal (read: naturally) supported healthier cardiac function. Tren is well-known as a cardio-endurance killer, at least in most people.
 
hardknock said:
Thickening of the heart walls or of the arteries supplying?
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Thickening of the heart muscles, LVH specifically I think. I saw the study linked on this board a while ago, heart wall thickness vs time, athletes and steroid using athletes. It spiked when they went on cycle, was almost normal within 6 months after stopping the cycle, and was completely normal within a year.
 
dpfisher said:
Thickening of the heart muscles, LVH specifically I think. I saw the study linked on this board a while ago, heart wall thickness vs time, athletes and steroid using athletes. It spiked when they went on cycle, was almost normal within 6 months after stopping the cycle, and was completely normal within a year.
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I've seen the same study, but stupidky didn't save a link. Anyway, thanks dpfisher. The point is there is evidence that suggests LVH is very reversible.
 
Doesnt steroid use lead to enlarged organs ??? ive heard of anabolic steroid users having enlarged hearts ???

Look at most wrestlers who are steroid users they dont usally live that long and thats always been put down to steroids.

My personal view is steroids are bad for you its why their banned their not good for your health and infact are bad for your heart.

If steroids were safe they would be legal. I do also believe that yes you can use them safely if you know what your doing, But im sure their doing some kind of damage one way or another.
 
Gym4Life said:
Doesnt steroid use lead to enlarged organs ??? ive heard of anabolic steroid users having enlarged hearts ???

Look at most wrestlers who are steroid users they dont usally live that long and thats always been put down to steroids.

My personal view is steroids are bad for you its why their banned their not good for your health and infact are bad for your heart.

If steroids were safe they would be legal. I do also believe that yes you can use them safely if you know what your doing, But im sure their doing some kind of damage one way or another.
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Wrestlers die from alcohol and pain killer addiction. Just because something is legal or illegal does not rationalize their safety. How many times has the FDA recalled a supposedly "safe" product because of the side effects?

The ban on steroids has nothing to do with safety; when the original bill was proposed, the FDA, DEA, etc. opposed their move to classify them with schedule III narcotics. It was the backlash from the 1988 Olympics in Seoul when Ben Johnson was busted for Winstrol and that set off the chain reaction.
 
Rodja said:
Wrestlers die from alcohol and pain killer addiction. Just because something is legal or illegal does not rationalize their safety. How many times has the FDA recalled a supposedly "safe" product because of the side effects?

The ban on steroids has nothing to do with safety; when the original bill was proposed, the FDA, DEA, etc. opposed their move to classify them with schedule III narcotics. It was the backlash from the 1988 Olympics in Seoul when Ben Johnson was busted for Winstrol and that set off the chain reaction.
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cool, fair enough but i have seen a documentry on tv where it showed the life of wwe/wwf About the lifes of wrestlers. It showed how they had to use Anabolic steroids in their sport.

Reasons were because of all the matches and training their bodies took phyical damage and abuse and that was their excuse for needing anabolics. also to look the part of course.

Most of them took them in the changing rooms by themselfs it showed that alot of wrestlers lifes are busy demanding and not the lifestyle people think it would be.

It was a depressing program and at the end it showed that most wrestlers died 20 years earlier than they should like in their 50s or 40s one of the reasons they said was because of their lifestyle and anabolic use.

Of course their was no real evidence to link this to steroids but from watching the program you could tell it was part of the whole depressing program.
 
I was born with a congenital heart defect, tricuspid atresia. I had the surgerys in the 80s when they were not common. At that time the doctors said said I was going to grow up weak and likley disabled. I lifted weights used very basic supplements when I was in high school and became a mediocre wrestler. As I became older I tried a few cycles of AAS (very few), however now I'm a muscular, athletic 31 year old. when I go to the cardiologist they always they are amazed at how strong and healthy I am, as well as my heart is in great shape.I actually just ran 4 miles after lifting today. As most Americans I could lose a llittle fat but I'm in the normal range.

What's my point? In moderation AAS can be great, moderation is the key!
 
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