Squats and deadlifts - ESSENTIAL? Aid in debate

Ju1cedUp said:
"are you in loser denial or something?"

billymadison
Click to expand...

Right, and what exactly did he disagree with? He didn't say he disagreed with anything, did he? No, he didn't.

It's hilarious, not one person has actually answered even one of the questions I've asked, which I will now repeat for newcomers.

1) Should EVERYBODY be squatting and deadlifting, regardless or the shape of their body, muscle dominances, weaknesses, flexibility issues, etc?

2) Are there ANY exceptions to the 'rule' where squats and deadlifts will give you better gains than any other exercises?

3) Is it possibe to grow without squats and deads?

Simple questions yet nobody has answered them. Gee, wonder why?
 
Since a lot of people seem to be struggling not to go off on a tangent, here are some simple statements. If you agree with all of them you agree with me. If not, explain which ones you disagree with and why.

1) Back squats and conventional deadlifts are amazing mass building movements that most people will grow extremely well from.

2) Almost everyone will grow better from having some form of squat and deadlift in their routine, even if not the back squat and conventional deadlift.

3) It is not absolutely necessary to squat and deadlift to build muscle, although in almost every case it helps

4) There is a small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than the back squat and conventional deadlift.

5) There is an even smaller, very small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than ANY form of the squat and deadlift.

Simple agree or disagree answers to these statements are all that is necessary. If you agree with them then you agree with me. Simple.
 
so just to clarify...Dorian did in fact squat for many years and then stop doing them later on. Many, many bodybuilders stop squatting after developing sufficient leg mass.
 
mooch2321 said:
so just to clarify...Dorian did in fact squat for many years and then stop doing them later on. Many, many bodybuilders stop squatting after developing sufficient leg mass.
Click to expand...

So, just to clarify, that fits in exactly with what I was saying.

Gosh, what a surprise.
 
Again, please respond with correct or incorrect answers to these statements:

1) Back squats and conventional deadlifts are amazing mass building movements that most people will grow extremely well from.

2) Almost everyone will grow better from having some form of squat and deadlift in their routine, even if not the back squat and conventional deadlift.

3) It is not absolutely necessary to squat and deadlift to build muscle, although in almost every case it helps

4) There is a small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than the back squat and conventional deadlift.

5) There is an even smaller, very small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than ANY form of the squat and deadlift.
 
"I have given several examples to prove my point. One such eample was Dorian Yates, 6 time Olympia winner who at 5'10" stood on stage at an unbelievably lean and dry 260+lbs. Apparently this example is somehow invalid because he's an "old" bodybuilder, as if this somehow invalidates his insane size that he built without squats and deadlifts."

here is what you said in your opening statement, notice the part that i have so thoughtfully bolded for you. You say dorian built his six time olympia physique without squats and deadlifts.
 
mooch2321 said:
"I have given several examples to prove my point. One such eample was Dorian Yates, 6 time Olympia winner who at 5'10" stood on stage at an unbelievably lean and dry 260+lbs. Apparently this example is somehow invalid because he's an "old" bodybuilder, as if this somehow invalidates his insane size that he built without squats and deadlifts."

here is what you said in your opening statement, notice the part that i have so thoughtfully bolded for you. You say dorian built his six time olympia physique without squats and deadlifts.
Click to expand...

And he did. He improved his size beyond his initial wins WITHOUT squats and deadlifts. Gosh, imagine that. He grew even further without squats and deadlifts. What a shocker.

And again, why are you ignoring my statements? If you're not afraid of agreeing with me why don't you simply answer what I'm asking you?
 
Squelchy said:
Please point out where one person has directly disgreed with something I have said. Quotations should be easy to provide.
Click to expand...

Dont squat then, tell more people not to. Fine by me.

Less traffic in the squat rack for me.

That doesnt mean do ****ing curls in the squat rack either.

Unsubbing. This thread is a waste of time.

Anyone that doesnt include squats and deads into there workout program, at least perodically, is missing out on 2 of the 3 major compound lifts.

There have been countless studies showing the effects on testosterone and IGF with squats to even waste another minute on this topic.

The below is ONE study done on the eccentric portion of the squats, my personal favorite. I see the most growth going slow on the negative and doing statics.....Though it is very grueling thus requires more diligence and effort in the recovery stages.

Point in question-

Invalid Link Removed


Out!.
 
oh...i thought that i was making that clear. I believe that squats and deads are ESSENTIAL....at least in the beginning. When your 250-260 and lean, you can do whatever the fu#k you want to after that. My point is Dorian gained his size from squatting and then changed to other movements later to work on different aspects of his leg development. But had he not squatted religously for years he never would have been the champoin that he was.
 
Kristofer68SS said:
Dont squat then, tell more people not to. Fine by me.
Click to expand...

Neither of these things are things I have said. I do in fact squat, nor have I told other people not to, so I have no idea why you think I have said either of these things unless you can't read.
mooch2321 said:
oh...i thought that i was making that clear. I believe that squats and deads are ESSENTIAL....at least in the beginning. When your 250-260 and lean, you can do whatever the fu#k you want to after that. My point is Dorian gained his size from squatting and then changed to other movements later to work on different aspects of his leg development. But had he not squatted religously for years he never would have been the champoin that he was.
Click to expand...
OK, thank you for this response at least, this makes your opinion much clearer. I wonder if Dorian would agree with you? That being the case, if squats and deads are ESSENTIAL, how do you account for paraplegic bodybuilders who are unable to do either of these?

Also, perhaps you could do me the honour of responding to the five statements that I have now posted twice.
 
Squelchy said:
OK, thank you for this response at least, this makes your opinion much clearer. I wonder if Dorian would agree with you? That being the case, if squats and deads are ESSENTIAL, how do you account for paraplegic bodybuilders who are unable to do either of these?
Click to expand...

HERE HE GOES AGAIN WITH THE DAMN PARAPLEGICS
 
Ju1cedUp said:
HERE HE GOES AGAIN WITH THE DAMN PARAPLEGICS
Click to expand...

Yes, because if squats and deads were essential to building muscle (look the word up) then that means paraplegic bodybuilders couldn't have gained a single ounce of muscle. What about that is hard to understand?
 
Why are you so afraid to respond to my questions?

Please respond with correct or incorrect answers to these statements:

1) Back squats and conventional deadlifts are amazing mass building movements that most people will grow extremely well from.

2) Almost everyone will grow better from having some form of squat and deadlift in their routine, even if not the back squat and conventional deadlift.

3) It is not absolutely necessary to squat and deadlift to build muscle, although in almost every case it helps

4) There is a small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than the back squat and conventional deadlift.

5) There is an even smaller, very small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than ANY form of the squat and deadlift.

6) Squats and deads are essential, therefore paraplegic bodybuilders do not exist and are completely imaginary.
 
Squelchy said:
Why are you so afraid to respond to my questions?

Please respond with correct or incorrect answers to these statements:

1) Back squats and conventional deadlifts are amazing mass building movements that most people will grow extremely well from.

True

2) Almost everyone will grow better from having some form of squat and deadlift in their routine, even if not the back squat and conventional deadlift.

True

3) It is not absolutely necessary to squat and deadlift to build muscle, although in almost every case it helps

Trick question. One CAN build muscle without a doubt. But why half-ass it? I mean really. There is too much evidence out there to over look compound lifts such as these.

4) There is a small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than the back squat and conventional deadlift.

Each individual has his/her own limits. These other lifts are trying to replace the squat and dead. Better results?, if the squat and and deads are done properly, NO WAY.

5) There is an even smaller, very small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than ANY form of the squat and deadlift.

Same question? WTF dude? NO.

6) Squats and deads are essential, therefore paraplegic bodybuilders do not exist and are completely imaginary.

Nice, now you have included the physically challenged in this debate.
Have you no shame?
Click to expand...


Answered. Negged and I am out for good.
 
Trick question. One CAN build muscle without a doubt. But why half-ass it? I mean really. There is too much evidence out there to over look compound lifts such as these.

Nobody's overlooking anything. I'm just agreeing with Dorian you pick the lifts that cater to your strengths.


4) There is a small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than the back squat and conventional deadlift.

Each individual has his/her own limits. These other lifts are trying to replace the squat and dead. Better results?, if the squat and and deads are done properly, NO WAY.

So you're saying that for someone with long legs the back squat is ALWAYS better than the front squat, for instance?



5) There is an even smaller, very small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than ANY form of the squat and deadlift.

Same question? WTF dude? NO.

Not the same question at all. Admittedly this is an infintesimal and nigh irrelevant minority but I thought what the Hell.



6) Squats and deads are essential, therefore paraplegic bodybuilders do not exist and are completely imaginary.

Nice, now you have included the physically challenged in this debate.
Have you no shame?

Quite the opposite. This thread is about whether squats and deads are ESSENTIAL. Paraplegic bodybuilders prove categorically they aren't. Why should we ignore the achievements of people who have overcome adversity to accomplish something? I think they should be celebrated, not ignored.
 
Squelchy said:
Since a lot of people seem to be struggling not to go off on a tangent, here are some simple statements. If you agree with all of them you agree with me. If not, explain which ones you disagree with and why.

1) Back squats and conventional deadlifts are amazing mass building movements that most people will grow extremely well from.

2) Almost everyone will grow better from having some form of squat and deadlift in their routine, even if not the back squat and conventional deadlift.

3) It is not absolutely necessary to squat and deadlift to build muscle, although in almost every case it helps

4) There is a small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than the back squat and conventional deadlift.

5) There is an even smaller, very small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than ANY form of the squat and deadlift.

Simple agree or disagree answers to these statements are all that is necessary. If you agree with them then you agree with me. Simple.
Click to expand...

I agree with this to a point....but the problem is most people who are just lazy would look at this and say that they are in this category. Therefore they do not have to squat or deadlift and then when they dont get results they will blaim it on their genes and not the fact that they are lazy. I would say there are very,very few people out their who wouldnt benefit from a conventional squat and dead.
 
mooch2321 said:
I agree with this to a point....but the problem is most people who are just lazy would look at this and say that they are in this category. Therefore they do not have to squat or deadlift and then when they dont get results they will blaim it on their genes and not the fact that they are lazy. I would say there are very,very few people out their who wouldnt benefit from a conventional squat and dead.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but dude, don't you get it? That is EXACTLY what I have been saying this whole time, people have just been choosing to ignore it and respond to things they want me to have been saying but I haven't said instead. Go back and read my posts and you will see I have never said anything different to what you just said and what you agreed with.

Like I said, I squat and dead, and I would suggest that the vast majority of people should squat and dead too. My points are simply that A) you can progress without them even if you can be doing them, and B) there is a small minority of people who would be better off entirely without them.

Somehow this has been translated into "nobody at all should squat and deadlift ever," and I have got no idea why since I've made myself very clear.
 
Before squats, i had no ass. I worked hams and quads but couldnt fill out a pair of pants in the rear.

Why neglect the glutes/hips?
 
Just squat and stfu, why even make a thread about it?

GICH!

Seriously though, some people are just big naturally and dont need to SFW like an animal.

Youre suggesting because yates didnt squat that you shouldnt either?
 
Jay V 24 said:
Just squat and stfu, why even make a thread about it?

GICH!

Seriously though, some people are just big naturally and dont need to SFW like an animal.

Youre suggesting because yates didnt squat that you shouldnt either?
Click to expand...
I'm not "suggesting" anything. If you want to know what I think then READ MY POSTS.

Christ, is reading something really so difficult?
 
Jay V 24 said:
Just squat and stfu, why even make a thread about it?

GICH!

Seriously though, some people are just big naturally and dont need to SFW like an animal.

Youre suggesting because yates didnt squat that you shouldnt either?
Click to expand...

Squelchy suggested nothing of the sort. Not sure where you got that from his posts.

The original poster in question asserted that it was ESSENTIAL to squat and DL in order to achieve any lean mass gains. Would you like to address that statement?
 
1) Back squats and conventional deadlifts are amazing mass building movements that most people will grow extremely well from.

TRUE

2) Almost everyone will grow better from having some form of squat and deadlift in their routine, even if not the back squat and conventional deadlift.

what..front squat? hack squat? sumo dead? rack pulls? stiff leg dead?
the answer is FALSE: If you want a flushed out answer ask and I will type up an essay.

3) It is not absolutely necessary to squat and deadlift to build muscle, although in almost every case it helps

TRUE: But not for MAXIMIZED gains. only for gains.

4) There is a small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than the back squat and conventional deadlift.

FALSE: An old woman who uses a walker (crippled) set it aside and squatted 90 lbs. at a powerlifting meet that Scott Mendelson was at. So he among others, hates it when guys complain about their knees or limb length, when crippled ladies can squat.

5) There is an even smaller, very small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than ANY form of the squat and deadlift.

FALSE:

I think the overall problem in these questions is you haven't clearly defined the word "RESULTS."
 
Jsherbro said:
2) Almost everyone will grow better from having some form of squat and deadlift in their routine, even if not the back squat and conventional deadlift.

what..front squat? hack squat? sumo dead? rack pulls? stiff leg dead?
the answer is FALSE: If you want a flushed out answer ask and I will type up an essay.
Click to expand...
Please do.
Jsherbro said:
4) There is a small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than the back squat and conventional deadlift.

FALSE: An old woman who uses a walker (crippled) set it aside and squatted 90 lbs. at a powerlifting meet that Scott Mendelson was at. So he among others, hates it when guys complain about their knees or limb length, when crippled ladies can squat.
Click to expand...
So you're saying that for absolutely EVERYBODY, bar NONE, the back squat and conventional deadlift are the best exercises that can be done?
Jsherbro said:
5) There is an even smaller, very small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than ANY form of the squat and deadlift.

FALSE:
Click to expand...
So Dorian Yates didn't know what he was doing then?
 
Fet said:
Squelchy suggested nothing of the sort. Not sure where you got that from his posts.

The original poster in question asserted that it was ESSENTIAL to squat and DL in order to achieve any lean mass gains. Would you like to address that statement?
Click to expand...

no i didnt haha. i said they were the best to maximum rates of growth. does that mean the rates are nonexistant without them? no


might wanna move ur nose form squelchy's ass.
 
Ju1cedUp said:
no i didnt haha. i said they were the best to maximum rates of growth. does that mean the rates are nonexistant without them? no


might wanna move ur nose form squelchy's ass.
Click to expand...

You said:

the only exercise that can replace the squat is the deadlift..

if you do neither.. you are not working out
Click to expand...

I don't see "maximum" in there.
 
Ju1cedUp said:
might wanna move ur nose form squelchy's ass.
Click to expand...

Lmao, Fet is actually debating WHAT HAS BEEN SAID, whereas you're the one posting bromance comments such as:

Ju1cedUp said:
bahaha this guys great.
Click to expand...

....and...

Ju1cedUp said:
and thank you again, your a boss.
Click to expand...

And something more recently along the lines of "Dude, let's neg him, it will be totally sweet, we're totally awesome."

"I agree, we are awesome, let's totally neg him, I totally love you dude. Let's make out."

Might want to extract your own nose from the anuses (anii?) of others before recommending such a process to others, eh?

Good lad.
 
Deads and squats release more GH than any other lifts. So in my mind, they are essential if you want to grow.
 
bonscott said:
Deads and squats release more GH than any other lifts. So in my mind, they are essential if you want to grow.
Click to expand...

So again, answer how paraplegic bodybuilders have grown if they are "essential."

Either that or grab a dictionary and look up the word "essential."
 
Squelchy said:
So again, answer how paraplegic bodybuilders have grown if they are "essential."

Either that or grab a dictionary and look up the word "essential."
Click to expand...

Do you really need validation of your beliefs that much? You have gone way past appearing unintelligent in your attempt at garnering favor for your viewpoint. If you are that insecure that you cannot be content with your own opinion, then there is a defect in your self-image. Get over it man. This sh1t is tired.
 
One can surely grow without these lifts, but if capable, they should be added to any hardcore bodybuilders repertoire.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top