D-zine vs. P-plex

AML

Member
How does D-zine compare to P-plex at the same doses as far as strength and size gains? How does D-zine compare to P-plex as far as liver toxicity is concerned at the same dose for each compound? Any info would be appreciated.
 
AML said:
How does D-zine compare to P-plex at the same doses as far as strength and size gains? How does D-zine compare to P-plex as far as liver toxicity is concerned at the same dose for each compound? Any info would be appreciated.
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As far as liver toxicity is conerned , P-Plex is a little higher but nothing that good supporting supps cant keep under control. I haven't run D-zine yet(plan to next month) but PP has always been my favorite bulker....the aggression, strength and size gain was great w/ PP
 
is a serm required with pplex?
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your kidding right
a serm should always be used with anything hormonal as a precautionary measure to ensure your body's hormonal levels return to normal as quickly as possible.

its not required but it would be smart to use a serm
 
powerlinelift said:
is a serm required with pplex?
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Sorry for the late reply. I am catching up on some of the threads on the front page.

I personally have never used a SERM with P-Plex. My PCT would be Inhibit-E and Liver Assist by SNS along with PCT Assist by us.

A popular way to run P-Plex is using Topical Formestane along with it at 100 mg per day and overlapping it two weeks into the PCT at 100 mg per day the first week and 50 mg per day the second week of PCT.

I completely disagree with the notion that SERM's should be blanket recomendations for all ph's. SERM's have potential risks and sides of their own.
 
Do you feel that an AI is necessary with P-Plex? Say I was doing a cycle (using nolva for pct), would it be wise to incorporate some type of estrogen control?

-YoungAnabolic
 
younganabolic said:
Do you feel that an AI is necessary with P-Plex? Say I was doing a cycle (using nolva for pct), would it be wise to incorporate some type of estrogen control?

-YoungAnabolic
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Does this depend on how much water weight and fat you naturally carry?
 
younganabolic said:
Do you feel that an AI is necessary with P-Plex? Say I was doing a cycle (using nolva for pct), would it be wise to incorporate some type of estrogen control?

-YoungAnabolic
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monstermash said:
Does this depend on how much water weight and fat you naturally carry?
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My personal PCT is Inhibit-E and Liver Assist by SNS along with PCT Assist by us.

If someone wants to run an on cycle anti estrogen to help with estrogen control or make it a drier cycle, they can stack it with our Topical Formestane at 100 mg per day.
 
Do you already have P-Plex? Just letting you know that you will not be able to purchase it after Jan 4th. You can find some really killer deals on it online now.
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id listen to that advice, P-Plex will never let you down
i got 5 bottles at home,bought them all in one day, a local supplement store was practically giving them away. Oddly, it doesnt make up for the ban :/
 
CompEdgeLabs said:
Do you already have P-Plex? Just letting you know that you will not be able to purchase it after Jan 4th. You can find some really killer deals on it online now.
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Yeah I have ordered two 2 bottle deal of M-Drol and P-Plex for about 50. I have them already, might be picking up one or two more since the ban is on the way!
 
Yeah, I'm ordering 2 more M drols and another p plex, along with an AI just in case. It is my first cycle of anything like that, hence the possibly unnecessary nolva that I will be taking. If I feel like I'm sensitive to higher estrogen levels I might use the AI at the end of my pct.

CompEdgeLabs said:
My personal PCT is Inhibit-E and Liver Assist by SNS along with PCT Assist by us.

If someone wants to run an on cycle anti estrogen to help with estrogen control or make it a drier cycle, they can stack it with our Topical Formestane at 100 mg per day.
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Would that make it drier without inhibiting gains?
 
nomoredex said:
id listen to that advice, P-Plex will never let you down
i got 5 bottles at home,bought them all in one day, a local supplement store was practically giving them away. Oddly, it doesnt make up for the ban :/
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There is a retailer right now clearancing out their P-Plex at 19.95 per bottle for anyone still looking.
 
P-plex does not aromatize, so an AI on cycle won't help with that; however, it (probably)does suppress SHBG to such a degree that it will free up your body's own estrogen, so a SERM my be necessary--some people are more sensitive or have higher natural estrogen levels than others. This SHBG lowering effect explains why some people experience gyno from non-aromatizing compounds such as P-PLex, SD, and A-bombs.


Crowbar
 
crowbar46 said:
P-plex does not aromatize, so an AI on cycle won't help with that; however, it (probably)does suppress SHBG to such a degree that it will free up your body's own estrogen, so a SERM my be necessary--some people are more sensitive or have higher natural estrogen levels than others. This SHBG lowering effect explains why some people experience gyno from non-aromatizing compounds such as P-PLex, SD, and A-bombs.


Crowbar
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does hdrol, pmag, epi, or 1-ad do this as well?
 
Spartan, I really don't know--I'm looking forward to getting Seth Robert's book; I think he'll have more to say about this. I hope Nutra gets it back in stock some day so I don't have to go elsewhere.

Crowbar
 
crowbar46 said:
P-plex does not aromatize, so an AI on cycle won't help with that; however, it (probably)does suppress SHBG to such a degree that it will free up your body's own estrogen, so a SERM my be necessary--some people are more sensitive or have higher natural estrogen levels than others. This SHBG lowering effect explains why some people experience gyno from non-aromatizing compounds such as P-PLex, SD, and A-bombs.


Crowbar
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so running formestane on cycle would help with this?
 
ThedarkHalf, no. The estrogen were're talking about here is already formed--it's the estrogen that you have formed from the aromatization of naturally produced testosterone, but which is normally bound to SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin) rendering it unable to exert any biological effects. When SHBG is suppressed too much this bound estrogen is freed up (as is bound testosterone). So, using an AI won't prevent this estrogen from being formed as it already is formed; however, the testosterone unbound by the suppression of SHBG could aromatize, and an AI could prevent this. There's really no need to use both an AI and a SERM however, and as the SERM will be needed (if you're sensitive) to deal with the unbound estrogen anyway, I'd just use a SERM (Nolva).


Crowbar
 
crowbar46 said:
ThedarkHalf, no. The estrogen were're talking about here is already formed--it's the estrogen that you have formed from the aromatization of naturally produced testosterone, but which is normally bound to SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin) rendering it unable to exert any biological effects. When SHBG is suppressed too much this bound estrogen is freed up (as is bound testosterone). So, using an AI won't prevent this estrogen from being formed as it already is formed; however, the testosterone unbound by the suppression of SHBG could aromatize, and an AI could prevent this. There's really no need to use both an AI and a SERM however, and as the SERM will be needed (if you're sensitive) to deal with the unbound estrogen anyway, I'd just use a SERM (Nolva).


Crowbar
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:werd:
 
ive got clomid lined up for my pplex pct...should i just hold on to it for my mdrol cyclre in the spring?
 
TheDarkHalf said:
so running formestane on cycle would help with this?
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I dont post enough and dont have time to go into a debate with Crowbar on the subject, but if you look around you can see a different train of thought in regards to running topical formestane on cycle where many people find it very helpful with their gains, lessening water retention, and estro conversion.

Opinions on this subject will always vary.
 
CompEdgeLabs said:
I dont post enough and dont have time to go into a debate with Crowbar on the subject, but if you look around you can see a different train of thought in regards to running topical formestane on cycle where many people find it very helpful with their gains, lessening water retention, and estro conversion.

Opinions on this subject will always vary.
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as always, I'm sure it comes down to a per user basis. I'll be sure to do some extra research on both sides of the argument so I can make an educated decision. Thanks for showing me your side of the coin.
 
TheDarkHalf said:
as always, I'm sure it comes down to a per user basis. I'll be sure to do some extra research on both sides of the argument so I can make an educated decision. Thanks for showing me your side of the coin.
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The thing that alot of people overlook is that in addition to Topical Formestane helping combat estrogen, it helps people have a drier cycle and also has good benefits of its own including increased strength, leanness, and improved libido.
 
CompEdgeLabs said:
The thing that alot of people overlook is that in addition to Topical Formestane helping combat estrogen, it helps people have a drier cycle and also has good benefits of its own including increased strength, leanness, and improved libido.
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10-4, thanks for the good looks.
 
CompEdgeLabs said:
The thing that alot of people overlook is that in addition to Topical Formestane helping combat estrogen, it helps people have a drier cycle and also has good benefits of its own including increased strength, leanness, and improved libido.
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After doing some research, it seems like everyone that's ran P-Plex and Formestane had great results with virtually no sides. Will probably pick some up...not starting my run until late jan early feb so plenty of time. Already have torem, cycle support, and reduce XT ready to go.

Going to wait until after my birthday so I can do some drinking, as I do not drink a single drop when I'm on cycle. :alcoholic:
 
TheDarkHalf said:
After doing some research, it seems like everyone that's ran P-Plex and Formestane had great results with virtually no sides. Will probably pick some up...not starting my run until late jan early feb so plenty of time. Already have torem, cycle support, and reduce XT ready to go.

Going to wait until after my birthday so I can do some drinking, as I do not drink a single drop when I'm on cycle. :alcoholic:
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Enjoy your birthday, and keep us updated on your progress.

Also, just for yourself or anyone that may not be aware, P-Plex will not be available for purchase after Jan 4th. Some sites have it available now for 19.95 while supplies last.
 
CompEdgeLabs said:
The thing that alot of people overlook is that in addition to Topical Formestane helping combat estrogen, it helps people have a drier cycle and also has good benefits of its own including increased strength, leanness, and improved libido.
Click to expand...

Ppl also overlook the fact that unbound estrogen has a half-life and will be metabolized not unlike free testosterone (an answer to the SERM is needed for P-Plex notion). With a sub-RX strength AI such as topical formestane, you are reducing both bound and unbound estrogen as less estrogen is produced to circulate or to be re-bound to make up for recently un-bounded estrogen.

If wanting to be very cautious, you could run topical form starting 2 weeks before your cycle to start drying up those estrogen deposits in advance (and limiting the creation of new estrogen). One nice thing about formestane is that it is not so strong that it will demolish estrogen and consequently your sex drive. The positive androgen:estrogen tilt will help to prevent on-cycle gyno too. This latter effect prolly contributes to the increased/maintained sex drive.

I am no expert, but when an AI reduces free estrogen via aromatase inhibition, the body will probably try to compensate by releasing some of that bound estrone and estrone sulfate into circulation as estradiol, which will be metabolized (as the glucuronide I think) and excreted. When the body wants to bind some circulating estrogen to make up for the deficit, there will be less circulating estrogen to pull from due to aromatase inhibition. Also, in the male body, very little estrogen is stored in the bound state. If you are already shutdown or have a jilted test:est ratio or too much water retention for a number of reasons, then that little bit may be enough to produce gyno symptoms, but enter topical formestane.

BTW, I use SERMs and RX-strength AIs, but as sparingly and judiciously as possible.

I also use a lot of CEL products, LOL.
 
crowbar46 said:
ThedarkHalf, no. The estrogen were're talking about here is already formed--it's the estrogen that you have formed from the aromatization of naturally produced testosterone, but which is normally bound to SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin) rendering it unable to exert any biological effects. When SHBG is suppressed too much this bound estrogen is freed up (as is bound testosterone). So, using an AI won't prevent this estrogen from being formed as it already is formed; however, the testosterone unbound by the suppression of SHBG could aromatize, and an AI could prevent this. There's really no need to use both an AI and a SERM however, and as the SERM will be needed (if you're sensitive) to deal with the unbound estrogen anyway, I'd just use a SERM (Nolva).


Crowbar
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That's true (the part in bold), but I wonder if it really matters (honestly)?

BTW, I'm not trying to get into a debate either; I am just throwing this info out there for the masses; let them decide for themselves.

From Invalid Link Removed (Clinical Pharmacology page):

Letrozole:
In postmenopausal patients with advanced breast cancer, daily doses of 0.1 mg to 5 mg Femara suppress plasma concentrations of estradiol, estrone, and estrone sulfate by 75%-95% from baseline with maximal suppression achieved within two-three days. Suppression is dose-related, with doses of 0.5 mg and higher giving many values of estrone and estrone sulfate that were below the limit of detection in the assays. Estrogen suppression was maintained throughout treatment in all patients treated at 0.5 mg or higher [standard daily dose is 2.5mg].
[...]
In postmenopausal women, estrogens are mainly derived from the action of the aromatase enzyme, which converts adrenal androgens (primarily androstenedione and testosterone) to estrone and estradiol. The suppression of estrogen biosynthesis in peripheral tissues and in the cancer tissue itself can therefore be achieved by specifically inhibiting the aromatase enzyme.
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I would venture to guess that women also have SHBG bound estrogen. Apparently, letro is doing a good enough job at controlling estrogen via aromatase inhibition that there doesn't appear to be any bound estrogen left to be released into circulation or else it might have showed up in the plasma assays.

Aromasin:
A dose-dependent decrease in sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) has been observed with daily exemestane doses of 2.5 mg [one-tenth the normal dose] or higher.
[...]
Multiple doses of exemestane ranging from 0.5 to 600 mg/day were administered to postmenopausal women with advanced breast cancer. Plasma estrogen (estradiol, estrone, and estrone sulfate) suppression was seen starting at a 5-mg daily dose of exemestane, with a maximum suppression of at least 85% to 95% achieved at a 25-mg dose. Exemestane 25 mg daily reduced whole body aromatization (as measured by injecting radiolabeled androstenedione) by 98% in postmenopausal women with breast cancer. After a single dose of exemestane 25 mg [the standard daily dose], the maximal suppression of circulating estrogens occurred 2 to 3 days after dosing and persisted for 4 to 5 days.
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My theory (for men and women): the body tries to compensate for the reduction in circulating estrogen by releasing its bound estrogen stores...which then get metabolized, excreted, and either never replaced or only partially replaced (e.g. with a weaker AI like topical form) due to inhibition of aromatase. Also, these drugs wouldn't be very effective for breast cancer if estrogen was continually seeping from the bound state into the free state and stimulating breast tissues (that's speculative of course).

It's just a homebrewed theory, and as someone said, opinions will vary. The SERM vs AI argument is like a favorite food argument with only one right answer allowed-pointless. They both have their pros and cons, but they can both be effectively used for estrogen control on cycle IMO.
 
dumbhick3 said:
Ppl also overlook the fact that unbound estrogen has a half-life and will be metabolized not unlike free testosterone (an answer to the SERM is needed for P-Plex notion). With a sub-RX strength AI such as topical formestane, you are reducing both bound and unbound estrogen as less estrogen is produced to circulate or to be re-bound to make up for recently un-bounded estrogen.

If wanting to be very cautious, you could run topical form starting 2 weeks before your cycle to start drying up those estrogen deposits in advance (and limiting the creation of new estrogen). One nice thing about formestane is that it is not so strong that it will demolish estrogen and consequently your sex drive. The positive androgen:estrogen tilt will help to prevent on-cycle gyno too. This latter effect prolly contributes to the increased/maintained sex drive.

I am no expert, but when an AI reduces free estrogen via aromatase inhibition, the body will probably try to compensate by releasing some of that bound estrone and estrone sulfate into circulation as estradiol, which will be metabolized (as the glucuronide I think) and excreted. When the body wants to bind some circulating estrogen to make up for the deficit, there will be less circulating estrogen to pull from due to aromatase inhibition. Also, in the male body, very little estrogen is stored in the bound state. If you are already shutdown or have a jilted test:est ratio or too much water retention for a number of reasons, then that little bit may be enough to produce gyno symptoms, but enter topical formestane.
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^^^ What he said lol :D

Very knowledgable post.
 
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