Test Booster for PCT

[n8te]

So I'll be starting a SD/Epi bridge tomorrow (it was supposed to be today but I held off b/c I thought I might be getting sick).

I'm just wondering if anyone would like to suggest a test booster for PCT. All other aspects of PCT are accounted for.

thx for suggestions in advance.

 

[n8te]

o well. I spose i'll just choose one and go with it.

 

[juice3320]

Sustain Alpha by Primordial Performance hands down man.

 

[TravisG]

I Force Testabolan has always done work for me.

 

[n8te]

Thanks guys.

 

[n8te]

Sustain Alpha by Primordial Performance hands down man.

BTW when are you starting your cycle?

 

[Rustang]

I use t-911 from LG .. Amazing product!

 

[juice3320]

BTW when are you starting your cycle?

I had to get the gear internationally so I still have to wait a little while. Right now I'm sitting at about 8ish% bf and I think what I'm going to do is do a mini cut down to about 5% and then start my bulk from there. The mass and strength gains would be insane. I think I'll start my bulk on the first week of the new year or the last week of this year. I can't think of a better way to start the year off! I'm gonna doing a pic log as well as a text log so it should be a fun road. Goodluck with your choice on the test booster man.

 

[Conciliator]

So I'll be starting a SD/Epi bridge tomorrow (it was supposed to be today but I held off b/c I thought I might be getting sick).

I'm just wondering if anyone would like to suggest a test booster for PCT. All other aspects of PCT are accounted for.

thx for suggestions in advance.

Do you want a test booster for after the SD/Epi bridge (i.e. while taking no androgens) or are you looking for a test booster while on the SD/Epi bridge?

 

[n8te]

I had to get the gear internationally so I still have to wait a little while. Right now I'm sitting at about 8ish% bf and I think what I'm going to do is do a mini cut down to about 5% and then start my bulk from there. The mass and strength gains would be insane. I think I'll start my bulk on the first week of the new year or the last week of this year. I can't think of a better way to start the year off! I'm gonna doing a pic log as well as a text log so it should be a fun road. Goodluck with your choice on the test booster man.

You're slowly becoming a fat ass :13: haha looking forward to that log.

Do you want a test booster for after the SD/Epi bridge (i.e. while taking no androgens) or are you looking for a test booster while on the SD/Epi bridge?

no no for PCT. after cycle.

 

[CrazyChemist]

just thought id throw in a second vote for sustain alpha.

 

[n8te]

can't find it anywhere, NP is sold out. well, I'm sure I can find it but it won't be cheap.

 

[Conciliator]

no no for PCT. after cycle.

The best test booster you can take is probably an antiestrogen, like nolva or clomid. Nolva has been shown in recent research to be superior to both toremifene and raloxifene at the HPTA. You'd also do well to take hCG throughout your cycle to prevent the primary impediment to the recovery of your natural testosterone levels: testicular atrophy and dysfunction.

Tribulus might increase your libido, but research consistently shows that it does jack squat for increasing LH or testosterone levels, so I wouldn't waste the money.

 

[TravisG]

conciliator, im sure he will be running nolva or clomid as a intergral part of his pct. although those are very good for restoring hormones, it is common practice to run a natty test booster along side your SERMS to boost test back to optimal levels quicker and safer.

 

[Conciliator]

it is common practice to run a natty test booster along side your SERMS to boost test back to optimal levels quicker and safer.

It's also common practice to stretch before exercising. Doesn't change the fact studies consistently show it does nothing to prevent injuries. The overwhelming majority of "natty test boosters" are going to be worthless, just like the overwhelming majority of supplements in general.

Any supplement that actually works to "boost test" is going to either antagonize negative feedback at the HPTA or mimic LH. But if that's what you need, why go any further than nolva and hCG, which accomplishes that very well? You know, besides blowing money for a placebo effect?

 

[CrazyChemist]

It's also common practice to stretch before exercising. Doesn't change the fact studies consistently show it does nothing to prevent injuries. The overwhelming majority of "natty test boosters" are going to be worthless, just like the overwhelming majority of supplements in general.

Any supplement that actually works to "boost test" is going to either antagonize negative feedback at the HPTA or mimic LH. But if that's what you need, why go any further than nolva and hCG, which accomplishes that very well? You know, besides blowing money for a placebo effect?

I disagree strongly here. Natural test boosters do not exclusively act as LH-mimicers (like hCG) nor do they act exclusively as estrogen receptor antagonists (SERMs). While the first ingredient in sustain alpha, resveratrol, does block the estrogen receptor the second ingredient, 7,8 Benzoflavone, passes the blood brain barrier and blocks the suppression GnRH release through modulation of the GABAergic receptor complex. This is not equivalent to mimicking LH, which in and of itself is suppressive to the HPTA. As a chemical engineer by profession and a supplement junkie, I stay pretty current on the literature and the literature I have read supports the use of natural test boosters during PCT. Below find a list of supporting references. I welcome any references to the contrary. (On an aside, I strongly caution against the use of hCG during PCT. hCG should only be used on cycle to prevent hypogonadism. Use during PCT is counter-productive.)


1. Resveratrol in Cardioprotection: A Therapeutic Promise of Alternative Medicine
Dipak K. Das et al.
Mol. Interv., Feb 2006; 6: 36 - 47.


2. The Red Wine Polyphenol Resveratrol Displays Bilevel Inhibition on Aromatase in Breast Cancer Cells
Yun Wang, et al.
Toxicol. Sci., Jul 2006; 92: 71 - 77.

3. trans-Resveratrol, a Natural Antioxidant from Grapes, Increases Sperm Output in Healthy Rats M. EmÃ*lia Juan, et al.
J. Nutr., Apr 2005; 135: 757 - 760

4. trans-Resveratrol relaxes the corpus cavernosum ex vivo and enhances testosterone levels and sperm quality in vivo.
S Shin, et al.
Arch Pharm Res, Jan 2008; 31(1): 83-7.

5. Inhibition of human estrogen synthetase (aromatase) by flavones
JT Kellis, Jr et al.
Science, Sep 1984; 225: 1032 - 1034.

6. Drug/substance reversal effects of a novel trisubstituted benzoflavone moiety (BZF) isolated from Passiflora incarnata Linn. - a brief perspective
KAMALDEEP DHAWAN et al.
Addiction Biology (December 2003) 8, 379 - 386

7. Prevention of chronic alcohol and nicotine-induced azospermia, sterility and decreased libido, by a novel tri-substituted benzoflavone moiety from Passiflora incarnata Linneaus in healthy male rats.
K Dhawan and et al.
Life Sci, Nov 2002; 71(26): 3059-69.

8. Molecular basis of the inhibition of human aromatase (estrogen synthetase) by flavone and isoflavone phytoestrogens: A site-directed mutagenesis study.
Kao YC, et al.
Environ Health Perspect 1998;106:85-92

9. Vasorelaxant and antioxidant activity of flavonols and flavones: structure-activity relationships.
OL Woodman, WF Meeker, and M Boujaoude
J Cardiovasc Pharmacol, Sep 2005; 46(3): 302-9.

10. Die Bedeutung der Passionsblume in der Heilkunde.
Lutomski J et al.
Pharmazie in unserer Zeit 1981;10:45-49.

11. The Honest Herbal: A Sensible Guide to the Use of Herbs and Related Remedies.
Tyler VE et al.
Pharmaceutical Products Press, New York, 1993.

12. Aphrodisiac activity of methanol extract of leaves of Passiflora incarnata Linn in mice.
K Dhawan, et al.
Phytother Res, Apr 2003; 17(4): 401-3.

13. Preoperative Oral Passiflora Incarnata Reduces Anxiety in Ambulatory Surgery Patients: A Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled Study
Ali Movafegh, et al.
Anesth. Analg., Jun 2008; 106: 1728 - 1732.

14. Essential oils are novel human skin penetration enhancers.
Williams A, et al.
Int J Pharmaceuticals 57:R7-R9, 1989

15. Allyl-containing sulfides in garlic increase uncoupling protein content in brown adipose tissue, and noradrenaline and adrenaline secretion in rats.
Oi, Y. et al
J. Nutr. 129: 336-342. (1999)

16. Garlic Supplementation Increases Testicular Testosterone and Decreases Plasma Corticosterone in Rats Fed a High Protein Diet
Yuriko Oi, et al.
J. Nutr., Aug 2001; 131: 2150 - 2156.

17. Corticosterone Can Act at the Posterior Paraventricular Thalamus to Inhibit Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Adrenal Activity in Animals that Habituate to Repeated Stress
Azra Jaferi et al.
Endocrinology, Oct 2006; 147: 4917 - 4930

18. Study of the effect of sclareol glycol diterpene on the release of adenohypophysial hormones prolactin, somatotropin and adenocorticotrophic hormone
Georgieva et al.
Eksp Med Morfol. 1989;28(3):7-14. Bulgarian.

19. Study of the effect of sclareol glycol diterpene on the 3',5'-AMP level
Georgieva et al.
Eksp Med Morfol. 1989;28(3):1-7. Bulgarian.

20. Understanding True Aromatherapy: Understanding Essential Oils
Eileen D, et al.
Home Health Care Management Practice, Oct 2004; 16: 474 - 479.

21. Neuroactive flavonoids interacting with GABAA receptor complex.
F Wang, M Shing, Y Huen, SY Tsang, and H Xue
Curr Drug Targets CNS Neurol Disord, Oct 2005; 4(5): 575-85.

22. Prevention of chronic alcohol and nicotine-induced azospermia, sterility and decreased libido, by a novel tri-substituted benzoflavone moiety from Passiflora incarnata Linneaus in healthy male rats.
K Dhawan and et al.
Life Sci, Nov 2002; 71(26): 3059-69.

23. Passiflora: a review update.
Dhawan K, Dhawan S, Sharma A.
J Ethnopharmacol. 2004 Sep;94(1):1-23. Review.

24. A gamma-aminobutyric acidB agonist reverses the negative feedback effect of testosterone on gonadotropin-releasing hormone and luteinizing hormone secretion in the male sheep.
Endocrinology. 2000 Nov;141(11):3940-5.

25. Drug/substance reversal effects of a novel tri-substituted benzoflavone moiety (BZF) isolated from Passiflora incarnata Linn. – a brief perspective.
Dhawan, et al.
Addiction Biology 379-386

26. Anticonvulsant effects of aerial parts of Passiflora incarnata extract in mice: involvement of benzodiazepine and opioid receptors.
Nassiri-Asl M, Shariati-Rad S, Zamansoltani F.
BMC Complement Altern Med. 2007 Aug 8;7:26.

27. Effects of Dialyzing γ-Aminobutyric Acid Receptor Antagonists into the Medial Preoptic and Arcuate Ventromedial Region on Lutienizing Hormone Release in Male Sheep.
Suzie A, et al.
Biology of Reproduction 58, 1038-1046 (1998)

28. Antiandrogen Microimplants into the Rostal Medial Preoptic Are Decrease γ-Aminobutyric Acidergic Neuronal Activity and Increase Luteinizing Hormone Secretion in the Intact Male Rat.
David R et al.
Endocrinology, Vol. 137 No. 10 (1996)

29. Non-classical estrogen modulation of presynaptic GABA terminals modulates calcium dynamics in gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) neurons.
Nicola Romano, et al.
Endocrinology, 10.1210/en.2008-0424 (2008)

30. Restoration of the Luteinizing Hormone Surge in Middle-Aged Female Rats by Altering the Balance of GABA and Glutamate Transmission in the Medial Preoptic Area
Genevieve S, et al.
Biol Reprod, Jul 2008; 10.1095/biolreprod.108.069831.

 

[TravisG]

concililator, you need to look into how natty test boosters work. you have it all wrong. do some research than we'll talk.

 

[Conciliator]

I disagree strongly here. Natural test boosters do not exclusively act as LH-mimicers (like hCG) nor do they act exclusively as estrogen receptor antagonists (SERMs).

I guess as an engineer you probably didn't take many English classes, where you'd develop reading comprehension. Or maybe you just like sophistry and straw men.

I didn't say that natural test boosters work as "estrogen receptor antagonists (SERMs)", did I? I said they're either LH mimetics or they "antagonize negative feedback at the HPTA." That negative feedback could be from estrogens, progestins, GABA, u-opioids, etc. Not only estrogen.

It's incredibly ironic that you bring up 7,8 Benzoflavone like it's some kind of exception, LOL. 7,8 Benzoflavone increases test levels through it's action as an aromatase inhibitor. That's something you would have known if you had done any real research on it, rather than just cut and paste a bunch of references. Congrats. All that jazz about 7,8 Benzoflavone working through GABA is based on the fact that estrogen (and other steroid) induced negative feedback at the hypothalamus is mediated through GABA. Any anti-estrogen will decrease GABAergic action.

 

[Conciliator]

I stay pretty current on the literature and the literature I have read supports the use of natural test boosters during PCT. Below find a list of supporting references. I welcome any references to the contrary.

Cutting and pasting a bunch of references that you haven't even looked at is the ultimate in jackassery. You should be embarassed since your "supporting references" don't even support you (a risk you run when you're ignorant of what you're posting).

Unlike you, I actually read studies before referencing them... and I only reference them when they're actually relevant to a discussion. Why don't you take a look at just the first two references for 7,8 Benzoflavone:

The first (6) begins with a discussion of aromatase. It then talks about the many effects of flavinoids, saying "The CNS effects of these plantderived flavonoids can be ascribed to the reported aromatase-inhibitory properties of these phytomoieties." "The BZF moiety...reported for the first time from a plant source, is a derivative of a very potent aromatase enzyme inhibitor, alphanaphthoflavone, or 7,8-benzoflavone." "Cotreatments with BZF are postulated to prevent the decline in testosterone levels by inhibiting the enzyme aromatase. The BZF moiety isolated from aerial parts of P. incarnata is hypothesized to act: (a) through its anti-aromatase properties and (b) by eliminating oestrogen’s negative feedback loop.83"

The second reference (7) explains "The benzoflavone moiety (BZF) is the strongest aromatase enzyme inhibitors [42,43]... The BZF moiety isolated from aerial parts of P. incarnata acts: (1) through its anti-aromatase function, and (2) by eliminating estrogen’s negative feedback loop [44,50]. The concomitant administration of BZF with nicotine, alcohol, and alcohol-nicotine combination, maintains the high level of testosterone in the blood by stopping the aromatization of testosterone to estrogen."

Did you get that? 7,8-benzoflavone is a potent AI, which eliminates negative feedback from estrogen. I hope you're embarrassed for self-congradulating yourself as "pretty current on the literature" when you're completely ignorant of the literature and basic information that can be gleaned from just the abstracts. Crap like this is pathetic. Unfortunately, people rarely get called out for feigning expertise. Post a bunch of random references that you know nothing about and it'll dazzle 9 out of 10 people. Those are the same people who are dazzled by supplement ads and waste insane amounts of money.

 

[Conciliator]

concililator, you need to look into how natty test boosters work. you have it all wrong.

Really? Then explain it to me. How do they work? How am I all wrong?

do some research than we'll talk.

Funny, that's what I was going to say to you.

 

[n8te]

ok ok ok...

 

[CrazyChemist]

Calm down bro. I merely said I disagree with you and you get up on a soap box and start preaching? Chill.

Second, I have read all those refs and they do support the use of a natural test booster in addition to a SERM. The original post I disagreed with was the one in which you said

why go any further than nolva and hCG

which crystallizes the fact that you need to do a bit more research when it comes to PCT. hCG should not be run during PCT and, as I said, natural test boosters do not just act like SERMs. We're all friends here so tone down the aggression (this guy must be eating dbol like cheerios!)

 

[CrazyChemist]

O and since I did actually pull all the articles I listed from the library I have copies. I'd be happy to scan and send a pdf for any of the articles in the event you want to read more than just the title. There's some good information following the title.

 

[triton185]

You guys have entirely too much time on your hands.........lol

Take the sh*t and if you don't feel any change.....don't buy it anymore. You are never gonna have a slam dunk with supplements as far as whether they work or they don't. Who freakin' cares.

 

[juice3320]

can't find it anywhere, NP is sold out. well, I'm sure I can find it but it won't be cheap.

Go to Primordial's website brotha!

 

[juice3320]

You're slowly becoming a fat ass :13: haha looking forward to that log.

Haha! Don't remind me! :ninja: But I intentionally gained some bf back so that I could speed my metabolism up before I do my mini-cut for the bulk . My CNS was hit pretty hard and I took two weeks of active recovery and higher carbs to get my body back up to par. I'm going to love starting a bulk at 4-5% bf and using a "post-competition" approach to the lean mass gains! Gonna be insane. Hope you find a good test booster bro!

 

[Conciliator]

Second, I have read all those refs

No you haven't. You just demonstrated that you were unaware that 7,8 benzoflavone is an AI. Otherwise, you wouldn't have posted what you did about it.

and they do support the use of a natural test booster in addition to a SERM.

Where? Not one of those references looked at the additive effects of a natural test booster when combined with a SERM. At best, they tell you something we already know... anti-estrogens work by antagonizing the negative feedback of estrogen at the HPTA.

The original post I disagreed with was the one in which you said which crystallizes the fact that you need to do a bit more research when it comes to PCT. hCG should not be run during PCT and, as I said,

Since your reading comprehension is lacking, I'll quote myself from earlier in this thread, "You'd also do well to take hCG throughout your cycle to prevent the primary impediment to the recovery of your natural testosterone levels: testicular atrophy and dysfunction." I've always recommended the use of hCG during cycle and for a couple of weeks after the last shot of a long ester.

natural test boosters do not just act like SERMs.

No one said they only act like SERMs. Great strawman. You've already posted about 7,8 benzoflavone, which is an AI. Resveratrol is also an anti-estrogen. You have not provided a shred of evidence that adding more anti-estrogens (like 7,8 benzoflavone or resveratrol) to a SERM will provide any additional benefit. If it did, don't you think it'd be a general recommendation to add an AI during PCT? There's a reason that experts like Swale are adamant against the use of an AI during PCT. Yet you're telling me I need to "do a bit more research on natural test boosters" while at the same time unknowingly promoting what are two anti-estrogens.

 

[juice3320]

Dude's for real. Let's just simply say that there are great arguments for both sides and a natty test booster is common practice in PCT and that the addition of one could not hurt progress in the PCT and could only help if anything at all.

 

[n8te]

^^ yea guys lets just agree to disagree thanks for the input regardless

 

[Conciliator]

Dude's for real. Let's just simply say that there are great arguments for both sides

No, there's not a great argument on both sides. Traditionally, "natty test boosters" have been based around tribulus, which despite bro-sentiment to the contrary, research has repeatedly shown to have no effect on test levels whatsoever.

It's well known that anti-estrogens increase test levels by reducing negative feedback at the HPTA. And that's why people take SERMs. However, it's definitely not a great argument to say that taking even more anti-estrogens, which work though the same mechanism of action (antagonizing estrogenic negative feedback), is going to increase test even more than the SERM alone.

a natty test booster is common practice in PCT

Unfortunately, an argumentum ad populum doesn't confer legitimacy.

the addition of one could not hurt progress in the PCT and could only help if anything at all.

Absolutely not. It could definitely hurt. First, taking an AI can drive estrogen too low. As the endocrinologist Swale argues, the risk of "further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile" is too great with an AI, which he says should absolutely not be taken during PCT.

Second, not all ingredients are benign. Reveratrol, for example, has been shown to possess activity not just as an anti-estrogen, but also as an anti-androgen. Invalid Link Removed found that resveratrol down-regulates the androgen receptor by enhancing its rate of degradation. Invalid Link Removed found that reveratrol reduced gene expression "through inhibition of both androgen- and estrogen-mediated transcription." Finally, Invalid Link Removed, in a study published just last month, found that resveratrol "regulates AR target gene expression, at least in part, by repressing AR transcriptional activity."

Tell me, is it true that the addition of an anti-androgen to PCT "could not hurt progress in the PCT and could only help if anything at all"? No. But who cares about facts and evidence, right? Spend your money on it because it can only help. Plus, it has a nice list of references no one has read.

 

[n8te]

All impressive use of latin aside-if anyone has a different test booster to recommend thanks, if not, can someone please close this thread? Its giving me a headache.

 

[juice3320]

No, there's not a great argument on both sides. Traditionally, "natty test boosters" have been based around tribulus, which despite bro-sentiment to the contrary, research has repeatedly shown to have no effect on test levels whatsoever.

It's well known that anti-estrogens increase test levels by reducing negative feedback at the HPTA. And that's why people take SERMs. However, it's definitely not a great argument to say that taking even more anti-estrogens, which work though the same mechanism of action (antagonizing estrogenic negative feedback), is going to increase test even more than the SERM alone.
Unfortunately, an argumentum ad populum doesn't confer legitimacy.
Absolutely not. It could definitely hurt. First, taking an AI can drive estrogen too low. As the endocrinologist Swale argues, the risk of "further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile" is too great with an AI, which he says should absolutely not be taken during PCT.

Second, not all ingredients are benign. Reveratrol, for example, has been shown to possess activity not just as an anti-estrogen, but also as an anti-androgen. Invalid Link Removed found that resveratrol down-regulates the androgen receptor by enhancing its rate of degradation. Invalid Link Removed found that reveratrol reduced gene expression "through inhibition of both androgen- and estrogen-mediated transcription." Finally, Invalid Link Removed, in a study published just last month, found that resveratrol "regulates AR target gene expression, at least in part, by repressing AR transcriptional activity."

Tell me, is it true that the addition of an anti-androgen to PCT "could not hurt progress in the PCT and could only help if anything at all"? No. But who cares about facts and evidence, right? Spend your money on it because it can only help. Plus, it has a nice list of references no one has read.

Not all natural test boosters work that way. You are making some very outlandish generalizations here but if that is what you believe then so be it and you do not have to use any natural test booster so long as you live .

 

[Conciliator]

Not all natural test boosters work that way.

The overwhelming majority are either worthless herbs (like tribulus) or natural anti-estrogens, aren't they? Companies selling this stuff will try to make it sound unique, though. They'll describe 7,8 benzoflavone as a "GABA modulator," instead of simply saying it's another AI.

You are making some very outlandish generalizations here

Aren't you the one who made an "outlandish generalization" when you said that "the addition of [a natty test booster] could not hurt progress in the PCT and could only help if anything at all?" I think I made that pretty clear.

Why don't you humor us by moving from a vague accusation to an elaboration. What in my last post was an "outlandish generalization?" I'm all ears.

 

[juice3320]

The overwhelming majority are either worthless herbs (like tribulus) or natural anti-estrogens, aren't they? Companies selling this stuff will try to make it sound unique, though. They'll describe 7,8 benzoflavone as a "GABA modulator," instead of simply saying it's another AI.
Aren't you the one who made an "outlandish generalization" when you said that "the addition of [a natty test booster] could not hurt progress in the PCT and could only help if anything at all?" I think I made that pretty clear.

Why don't you humor us by moving from a vague accusation to an elaboration. What in my last post was an "outlandish generalization?" I'm all ears.

First off I wouldn't be humoring "us" because you are the only guy on this thread that seems to think everyone is wrong except for you so in the essence of not arguing with you I will not continue to type on this thread . However, the generalization you made was that all test boosters are the same and work in the same manner and therefore are useless. This is in no way true. That is all I will say . Goodluck and God Bless

 

[Conciliator]

First off I wouldn't be humoring "us" because you are the only guy on this thread that seems to think everyone is wrong except for you

I'm also the only one in this thread referencing and quoting research to support his arguments (note, posting a list of references that you've never read and that doesn't support anything you've said doesn't count for anything).

so in the essence of not arguing with you I will not continue to type on this thread

Since you haven't contributed to this thread, that wouldn't be a bad idea. In the future, you might think twice before telling someone that you recommend an AI and an anti-androgen for PCT when they're already going to be taking a prescription SERM.

However, the generalization you made was that all test boosters are the same and work in the same manner and therefore are useless. This is in no way true. That is all I will say . Goodluck and God Bless

You should learn what a straw man is. Then learn to stop putting them up. I talked about herbs and anti-estrogens because that's what most test boosters are, including the one you recommended early in this thread. I didn't make any undue generalizations. I think you need to go back in this thread where I said "they're either LH mimetics or they 'antagonize negative feedback at the HPTA.' That negative feedback could be from estrogens, progestins, GABA, u-opioids, etc. Not only estrogen."

 

[n8te]

Easy there...

So I'll be starting a SD/Epi bridge tomorrow (it was supposed to be today but I held off b/c I thought I might be getting sick).

I'm just wondering if anyone would like to suggest a test booster for PCT. All other aspects of PCT are accounted for.

thx for suggestions in advance.

Whoa there bud. ^^that was the topic of the thread suggestions for a test booster. You are the only person I believe that has not suggested one for me and just argued back and forth. Juice has been very helpful to me in the past and he has contributed to the topic of this thread.

Thanks to him and everyone else. Now will a mod please close my thread? (wonder if they've ever had that request before?)

 

[juice3320]

Whoa there bud. ^^that was the topic of the thread suggestions for a test booster. You are the only person I believe that has not suggested one for me and just argued back and forth. Juice has been very helpful to me in the past and he has contributed to the topic of this thread.

Thanks to him and everyone else. Now will a mod please close my thread? (wonder if they've ever had that request before?)

No prob man. And I doubt that they have ever had that request from a member ha

 

[Conciliator]

Whoa there bud. ^^that was the topic of the thread suggestions for a test booster. You are the only person I believe that has not suggested one for me and just argued back and forth. Juice has been very helpful to me in the past and he has contributed to the topic of this thread.

I suggested a test booster in my second post here. I have also contributed to this thread by explaining how 1) people don't even know what it is that they're recommending to you, and 2) when you consider what it actually is, it's not worth blowing you money on.

I'm trying to help you bro. You're already going to be taking the test boosters I recommended. And when it comes to a "natty test booster," I'm trying to help you save your money. Unfortunately, it sounds like you're intent on pissing your money away on something... no matter what the reasoning is to the contrary. That's not very intelligent.

Thanks to him and everyone else. Now will a mod please close my thread? (wonder if they've ever had that request before?)

No one is making you come back. If you don't like all of the research showing that these people don't even know what they're recommending to you and that what they are recommending could potentially hurt your PCT, then an online forum might not be the place for you. If you're looking to hear only what you want to hear, you can go over to GNC and have some retard sell you the latest and greatest crap.

 

[juice3320]

I suggested a test booster in my second post here. I have also contributed to this thread by explaining how 1) people don't even know what it is that they're recommending to you, and 2) when you consider what it actually is, it's not worth blowing you money on.

I'm trying to help you bro. You're already going to be taking the test boosters I recommended. And when it comes to a "natty test booster," I'm trying to help you save your money. Unfortunately, it sounds like you're intent on pissing your money away on something... no matter what the reasoning is to the contrary. That's not very intelligent.
No one is making you come back. If you don't like all of the research showing that these people don't even know what they're recommending to you and that what they are recommending could potentially hurt your PCT, then an online forum might not be the place for you. If you're looking to hear only what you want to hear, you can go over to GNC and have some retard sell you the latest and greatest crap.

Hey man. What you said is good advice and should be looked upon by all means. Just don't be so harsh when you are portraying your info bro . Everyone respects a new viewpoint on a topic, however, you do not have to tell everyone how stupid they are for having their viewpoints as well. That's what a forum is for (opposing views and advice on them). Also, the main reason people take natural test boosters (one of the best ones out right now is sustain) is to combat the effects of PCT that a SERM won't account for most of the time (i.e. libido increase and general feeling of well being and not depression) among other things. I do respect your opinion and views, however, just be respectful of everyone elses as well (you can argue with someone very sensibly without turning into a "I'm better than you" match) . No problems with your sources or data though. Thanks for the input.

 

[n8te]

I suggested a test booster in my second post here. I have also contributed to this thread by explaining how 1) people don't even know what it is that they're recommending to you, and 2) when you consider what it actually is, it's not worth blowing you money on.

I'm trying to help you bro. You're already going to be taking the test boosters I recommended. And when it comes to a "natty test booster," I'm trying to help you save your money. Unfortunately, it sounds like you're intent on pissing your money away on something... no matter what the reasoning is to the contrary. That's not very intelligent.
No one is making you come back. If you don't like all of the research showing that these people don't even know what they're recommending to you and that what they are recommending could potentially hurt your PCT, then an online forum might not be the place for you. If you're looking to hear only what you want to hear, you can go over to GNC and have some retard sell you the latest and greatest crap.

1. I will not be pissing my money away but thank you for your concern.

2. The reason I have been returning to this thread is in the hopes that someone might have contributed to it in a productive manner. Unfortunately, every time I come back to some online pissing contest between you and someone else in here. There is a way you can state your opinion without coming off like an arrogant prick. There are plenty of people on here whose opinions I respect and I believe they do know what they are talking about. But just because they say something doesn't mean I won't read up on it after its suggested, if I didn't then that would be stupid yes, but it's not the case. You might very well be full of very good information but it doesn't mean d*** if no one can stand you long enough to listen to it.

Maybe changing your avatar would help...it just bugs me, that and combination of what you've said.

I really don't have anything against you personally, but I just wanted this to be a productive thread.

 

[Otto Skorzeny]

Have any natty test boosters actually been proven to raise anything other than libido? Increasing free test doesn't necessarily mean an increase in serum test levels, correct? Or is too much bogus info floating in all channels?