I Got 20$ on Kimbo Next Wensday.

Ok then this is were we differ on opinions i guess. I consider an individual to "win" a fight if he is inflicting significant damage where the other individual is rendered incapable of defending himself.

If you consider laying on his face and tapping the top of his head a dominate win then by all means you are right. But i saw roy have an awful stand up...and complete lack of ground finishing prowess...but he had an amazing ability to utilize his size and weight to render his oponent immobile. In the original "old school" UFC that fight would not have ended the same way.
 
GoHardOrGoHme said:
Ok then this is were we differ on opinions i guess. I consider an individual to "win" a fight if he is inflicting significant damage where the other individual is rendered incapable of defending himself.

If you consider laying on his face and tapping the top of his head a dominate win then by all means you are right. But i saw roy have an awful stand up...and complete lack of ground finishing prowess...but he had an amazing ability to utilize his size and weight to render his oponent immobile. In the original "old school" UFC that fight would not have ended the same way.
Click to expand...

Knees to the head would have also been legal.
 
Rodja said:
Sean Sherk's made a career of this. Hughes did it against Serra, Pelligrino aganist Neer, etc.
Click to expand...

Yep. That's the rules of the game and smart fighting. Why should BC have risked breaking his hand on KS's skull when he could achieve the same end safely? No doubt that he dominated.
 
If Kimbo looked like this:Invalid Link Removed

Then i would agree that Roy dominated that fight...
 
Hahaha wait, wait wait wait

You guys serious with those last two comments? Yeah knees to the head where legal cause last time i checked, that was fighting in its purest form a knee is just another weapon to utilize against an oponent.

And break his hand on kimbo's head?? I dont know but i for one learned not to punch the top of the head in a fight....elbow sure...punch no....if Roy thought that was an definite means to ending the fight let him break his hand to learn no to do that.
 
GoHardOrGoHme said:
I consider an individual to "win" a fight if he is inflicting significant damage where the other individual is rendered incapable of defending himself.
Click to expand...

I think you're half right. I don't think "damage" should be considered in this case. Kimbo was was just lying there not defending. Had the fight gone on for 3 more minutes, what do you think would've been different?
 
GoHardOrGoHme said:
Hahaha wait, wait wait wait

You guys serious with those last two comments? Yeah knees to the head where legal cause last time i checked, that was fighting in its purest form a knee is just another weapon to utilize against an oponent.

And break his hand on kimbo's head?? I dont know but i for one learned not to punch the top of the head in a fight....elbow sure...punch no....if Roy thought that was an definite means to ending the fight let him break his hand to learn no to do that.
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Kimbo would have gotten KO'd from knees in that position. You're also forgetting that these guys have to fight 3 times in 6 weeks. Why should they overextend themselves if it's not necessary?
 
If you notice his positioning he was riding high and if Kimbo would have used a burst of that animal strength of his he could have escaped.

He was looking to get the fight stopped, he wasnt looking to really beat kimbo.

I mean granted, Kimbo should have escaped! Im not saying that Kimbo did amazing...im just saying that was a BS fight with a stupid stoppage. Make them stand up again, or have roy really show he was the winner.
 
GoHardOrGoHme said:
If you notice his positioning he was riding high and if Kimbo would have used a burst of that animal strength of his he could have escaped.

He was looking to get the fight stopped, he wasnt looking to really beat kimbo.

I mean granted, Kimbo should have escaped! Im not saying that Kimbo did amazing...im just saying that was a BS fight with a stupid stoppage. Make them stand up again, or have roy really show he was the winner.
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Do you boo if nothing happens during the first 15 seconds?
 
Rodja said:
Kimbo would have gotten KO'd from knees in that position. You're also forgetting that these guys have to fight 3 times in 6 weeks. Why should they overextend themselves if it's not necessary?
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First off for him to Knee kimbo it would expose him to be off balance and if kimbo didnt utilize that then oh well would get KO and i would shut up.

And why? B/c that the nature of the game. If you cant hack 3 fights in a month and a half then you shouldnt go on the show. Heck if their were men that fought 3-5 times in a night! why cant they fight 3 times in a 6 weeks?
 
i dont boo at all....i respect the fact they are in that cage

But i dont have to agree with the fact that Roy deserved to win by tapping kimbo on the head.
 
Herb Dean gave Kimbo a HUGE gift the end of the first round. Then when the fight was stopped, he gave him more than ample time to do something. Was it a lackluster outing? Abso-****ing-lutely. Did BC deserve the win? Yes. Not even KS disputed the stoppage. Why would Dean stand them up when Roy was in a dominant position? That would've been stupid.
 
Bionic said:
Herb Dean gave Kimbo a HUGE gift the end of the first round. Then when the fight was stopped, he gave him more than ample time to do something. Was it a lackluster outing? Abso-****ing-lutely. Did BC deserve the win? Yes. Not even KS disputed the stoppage. Why would Dean stand them up when Roy was in a dominant position? That would've been stupid.
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A fight is only stopped for the safety of the defending fighter,
if the guy pins him down and starts hitting him with a pillow,
the ref isnt gonna call it simply because the opponent is getting
repeatedly hit
 
jherman08 said:
A fight is only stopped for the safety of the defending fighter,
if the guy pins him down and starts hitting him with a pillow,
the ref isnt gonna call it simply because the opponent is getting
repeatedly hit
Click to expand...

If he's a good ref, then he will. If the fighter cannot defend himself or is not attempting to improve his position, then it will be stopped.

See:
Hughes/Penn II
Velasquez/O'Brien
 
well he wasnt utilizing the full potential of the position. Did he shift his weight every so slightly to start hammering Kimbo in the face? No

Im sorry but he could have done so much to show he was dominating the fight, he chose the must unimpressive way to end the fight.

And I would also like to note...Kimbo could have performed 100x better. I was very dissapointed with his performance as well
 
GoHardOrGoHme said:
well he wasnt utilizing the full potential of the position. Did he shift his weight every so slightly to start hammering Kimbo in the face? No

Im sorry but he could have done so much to show he was dominating the fight, he chose the must unimpressive way to end the fight.

And I would also like to note...Kimbo could have performed 100x better. I was very dissapointed with his performance as well
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I'm not saying that it was impressive, but it was a clear victory for Nelson.
 
rhodja you make a good point, the ref did his job

Roy did not

Kimbo needed more hunger in that fight

Both athletes may have been too concerned with leaving their juice till later fights. Personally I have made that mistake in competitions and paid for it.
 
EDIT: Dammit! Too late! LOL!!!

Nobody's disagreeing with the fact that it was not an exciting bloody fight. What you're failing to accept is that a fight needn't be exciting, bloody or end with an opponent being unconscious for it to be considered a win per the unified rules of MMA.
 
Ok let me clear something up

I dont think a fight needs to be excited...bloody...or end with a knockout

I am perfectly content with two individuals putting their all and it ending after 30 minutes of intense jiu-jitsu work with out a shed of blood or excitement

What i am not content with is the sub par performance. Roy was put in a position that was intended to damage. Hell i would have been happy if Nelson didnt throw one punch but choked kimbo out in that position...which is possible i have done it. I want to see technique, i wanna see ambition, i wanna see two individuals striving to reach higher levels of combat arts.

What i saw was a fat guy laying on a strong guy and waiting for the ref to say u win.
 
First Kimbo is really stupid because hes had a year to prepair for a ground game.

Going against a ton of bigs guys...your going to encounter wrestlers.

He should have known(many people prolly told him) you need a ground game or you're effed.

He wants to learn but does stand up and works REALLY hard on those bicepts when he should just be rolling and grappling. He needs to get way better smarts besdies hitting the gym.

Also those stupid black guys in backyards might be pretty big but their footwork is terrible and they are prolly stoned so either its not gonig to hurt or they are a little slower. Kimbos chin is prolly average compared to these heavyweights.

the way he is going to win is by someone being really stubborn and trying to strike with him to impress dana or they have no ground game at all.

This isnt eliteXC they dont fix matches or give him standing only opponents so he will get a TKO.


on another note that fight was so boring and i wish roy would of have a better GNP or pulled a sub not that pats on the head.
 
I am also mad that it was stopped. I know he had to stop it or they would be like dude wtf it was over. I could tell herb was annoyed and sad he had to stop it liek that. It was boring for him as well. tobad kimbo didnt get guard so they could stand it up again, I guess roy was too dominate of a position to stand it up.
 
I feel like roy could have easily subbed him, no?

I mean if you can get a crucifix like that, even I could put a kimura with my foot in on that arm. or just a regular kimura on the other side, or a bar.. or something!

roy deserved the win and the stoppage was fair, but why not use the blackbelt submission skills? he didnt throw any elbows either
 
I love the comment at the end of the fight. Roy is like the Moon, How you gonna get the moon off you...

Kimbo can throw some punches and seems like a pretty humble guy but as much as I hate to say it Roy pretty much had his way with him yesterday.
 
AntonG42O said:
I feel like roy could have easily subbed him, no?

I mean if you can get a crucifix like that, even I could put a kimura with my foot in on that arm. or just a regular kimura on the other side, or a bar.. or something!

roy deserved the win and the stoppage was fair, but why not use the blackbelt submission skills? he didnt throw any elbows either
Click to expand...

He called it before the fight. The crucifix was his plan all along.
 
pmiller383 said:
I love the comment at the end of the fight. Roy is like the Moon, How you gonna get the moon off you...

Kimbo can throw some punches and seems like a pretty humble guy but as much as I hate to say it Roy pretty much had his way with him yesterday.
Click to expand...

i wouldnt say had his way with him...... If i got into a fight, i wouldnt wanna come out of it with a welt on my head from getting ****ed up in the stand up exchanges. Thats just me though.



had his way with him on the ground? yeah. Kimbos ground game.... well, he had none. Props to fat boy though, for calling how he was gonna win. pretty cool how he said hed put him in the crucifix, and did indeed put him in a crucifix.

I'm pulling for kimbo (obviously), but im not gonna sit here and say the stoppage was BS. Roy nelson won the fight, and i wouldnt argue with the ref for stopping it. Could it have gone longer? Sure... but I think whats trying to be said here is he didnt **** kimbo up.
 
GoHardOrGoHme said:
But im sorry that fight with roy was BS...roy didnt win that fight. If it was a wrestling match yeah he pinned kimbo real well...but that man did not BEAT Kimbo. Like Dana said...his daughter hits him like roy was hitting Kimbo. Kimbo needs to circle out of those bum rushes and plant his feet against the floor. I give Kimbo a little more technique and we can see that blubber ball knocked out.
Click to expand...


Ok so i will edit what i said....Yes Roy "won" the match. But in an MMA fight...an individual "should" display more then high school wrestling to assure him a sound victory.

I will stand by my observation of a fat man laying on a strong man and looking at the referee to tell him he won. We all say he had a pinning position with infinite MMA possibilities but decided to lightly hit the top of Kimbo rock of a head till Herb had to step in.

Yes it was impressive he called the crucifix...but i believe in a true fight having a plan is a waste of time. Too many times have I had a "plan" only to have it thrown out the window b/c the nature of a fight is very dynamic. Now if you have a general plan like...box with him and dont let him take you down...or take him down quickly....then yes that is a great way to utilize ur strength against his weaknesses....but to plan out a specific move like that and to rely on it was risky. But he came out on top (literally) this time so kudos for him.

I still think Kimbo has a lot of potential and on year to learn a sound ground game is not enough. But if he focuses on his take down defense and stand up...he can go very far like other fighters have without needing to focus on jiu-jitsu.
 
What makes me mad about Kimbo is he knows what he needs to work on but it appears he didnt get much out of his training. MMA is about being able to pick things out quick and he might just not be able to get it.
 
Bionic said:
He called it before the fight. The crucifix was his plan all along.
Click to expand...

Listen to it again(30 sec in)
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6qfcu2vlgE"]YouTube - tuf[/ame]
"You get him in the crucifix position, and land unanswered shots..you know..LIKE I WAS"

It was actually Roy giving Advice to Schaub.. Kimbo will return..lol
 
seriously look at rampage, hes become one of the biggest names in mma and he couldnt tell you an armbar from a triangle. his ground game consists of "gettin up". after all these years he has put in zero time learning some takedowns or some jiujitsu or kicks, simply relying on throwing his hands and slamming people. kimbo cant learn anything new from this clown, as they are basically the same people. as much as we hate to see one sided battles like this one, kimbo can still draw millions to watch never learning a damn thing about grappling.
 
AntonG42O said:
seriously look at rampage, hes become one of the biggest names in mma and he couldnt tell you an armbar from a triangle. his ground game consists of "gettin up". after all these years he has put in zero time learning some takedowns or some jiujitsu or kicks, simply relying on throwing his hands and slamming people. kimbo cant learn anything new from this clown, as they are basically the same people. as much as we hate to see one sided battles like this one, kimbo can still draw millions to watch never learning a damn thing about grappling.
Click to expand...

This is a huge fail right here. Look at Rampages fights with Chuck I, Hendo, and Jardine. Notice a few TD's in there? Rampage is a damn good wrestler.

To say he has put no effort into learning the other facets of the game is just ignorant; not everyone is a submission guy, even if they train in BJJ. Learning how to defend submissions is just as important. Wand has a BB: how many subs does he have in his career? 1.
 
Rodja said:
This is a huge fail right here. Look at Rampages fights with Chuck I, Hendo, and Jardine. Notice a few TD's in there? Rampage is a damn good wrestler.

To say he has put no effort into learning the other facets of the game is just ignorant; not everyone is a submission guy, even if they train in BJJ. Learning how to defend submissions is just as important. Wand has a BB: how many subs does he have in his career? 1.
Click to expand...

First of all Wand's BB is given just for show, ive never seen him manage even a half decent guard. Rampage couldnt give that guy Abe one little piece of advice about how to get out of the situation, how to position his feet/control the opponents posture, nothing. He does have a couple submissions on his record but I still dont think he believes in having a balanced mma game.

Of course I dont know what Im talking about, Rodja, since you are the absolute mma expert on this site. Anyone elses opinion is a fail.
 
AntonG42O said:
First of all Wand's BB is given just for show, ive never seen him manage even a half decent guard. Rampage couldnt give that guy Abe one little piece of advice about how to get out of the situation, how to position his feet/control the opponents posture, nothing. He does have a couple submissions on his record but I still dont think he believes in having a balanced mma game.

Of course I dont know what Im talking about, Rodja, since you are the absolute mma expert on this site. Anyone elses opinion is a fail.
Click to expand...

Nice dodging the actual point. How many people have you seen routinely pass Wand's guard and/or submit him? Exactly. His BJJ is based on defense/positioning. People play to their strengths; for Rampage, it is to use his hands, TD/TD defense, and strength. He's implemented new facets to his game over the years and his technical boxing has improved dramatically.

There are countless examples of excellent grapplers with few submissions on their record. Vitor Belfort is a prime example: 3rd at ADCC absolute, BB under Carlson Gracie, and a whopping 2 submissions.
 
Rodja said:
Nice dodging the actual point. How many people have you seen routinely pass Wand's guard and/or submit him? Exactly. His BJJ is based on defense/positioning. People play to their strengths; for Rampage, it is to use his hands, TD/TD defense, and strength. He's implemented new facets to his game over the years and his technical boxing has improved dramatically.

There are countless examples of excellent grapplers with few submissions on their record. Vitor Belfort is a prime example: 3rd at ADCC absolute, BB under Carlson Gracie, and a whopping 2 submissions.
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No, definitely good arguement and good point about Belfort. I just love grappling too much and I wanna see everyone use it to their advantage. Just dont be so condescending, bro, calling my post a fail will probably not result in a good discussion. Im all for you telling me Im wrong but Im a fan just like you and have my own opinions about the fighters.
 
I think we often underestimate how good fighter's bjj games are. Especially when it comes to guys who don't go for submissions but r so skilled at avoiding them. Some people might just be uncoachable bc Kimbo has had time to train his ground game and wrestling but it is still the obvious way to attack him.

This is the 1 thing I kind of dont like about the TUF. Some of the guys arent very well rounded so wrestlers tend to dominate since they can control where the fight goes. Great example of this was the 1st fight of this season.
 
Hey Carlson Gracie!!! My dad use to roll a school in downtown back in the day. I use to go to the class when i was a little kid and watch and practice the moves with my dad. He even met vitor before he began his reign of destruction.

Man that was so long ago.....how time flies....Did anyone see that old man in the corner in UFC 102 for like 3 or 4 fighters including thiago silva...that was built but had grey hair and tatts? Thats Conan the guy who was running the carlson gracie school and use to fight heavyweight in MMA.

Man that was so long ago....
 
GoHardOrGoHme said:
Hey Carlson Gracie!!! My dad use to roll a school in downtown back in the day. I use to go to the class when i was a little kid and watch and practice the moves with my dad. He even met vitor before he began his reign of destruction.

Man that was so long ago.....how time flies....Did anyone see that old man in the corner in UFC 102 for like 3 or 4 fighters including thiago silva...that was built but had grey hair and tatts? Thats Conan the guy who was running the carlson gracie school and use to fight heavyweight in MMA.

Man that was so long ago....
Click to expand...

Conan's not that old and he's been with ATT for awhile now. Sadly, he'll always be best known for getting armbarred by Saku in Japan. That was when BJJ was supposed to be invulnerable and then a Japanese wrestler came and submitted him.
 
Haha oh come on man i said old as a relative term....the man is about the same age as my dad maybe a little older....so i dont mean old as he is ready to kick the bucket

I mean old as....he has accumulated a vast amount of experience over several decades. I remember he was a good guy, got busted for drugs though. Seemed to have cleaned up every since. Havent seen him since i was maybe 9 or 10??
 
dude im laughing at the part of anton saying page is a bad wrestler. haha its ok he used to use it a lot more but hes a great wrestler. also i think he should have to yell everythong out people should know what they are doing before getting into the UFC octagon. they are all so far gonig to get RIPPEd apart in UFC. page might not have that good of coaching but he could definatly grapple. about wandy, he doesnt go on the ground, hes all about killing his oponent and giving a good show to the fans and dana white. he wants blood!
 
yea i was definitely out of it this morning and forgot about rampage's wrestling. i gotta stop smokin cheeb before going to work
 
AntonG42O said:
yea i was definitely out of it this morning and forgot about rampage's wrestling. i gotta stop smokin cheeb before going to work
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Lol ya I was a lil baffled by ur post earlier. I know page wasn't the most technical wrestler but he was def a wrestler and that WAS his base. Now he likes to stand. I still can't some of his fights where he just take leg kicks though.
 
Tomahawk88 said:
Lol ya I was a lil baffled by ur post earlier. I know page wasn't the most technical wrestler but he was def a wrestler and that WAS his base. Now he likes to stand. I still can't some of his fights where he just take leg kicks though.
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lol right, if i fought these guys i would make sure i learned how to check kicks, because those MFers hurt so bad coming from a pro fighter. ive gotten leg kicked by a local pro fighter and it goes numb right away, i cant imagine eating one from brandon vera or someone like that.
 
AntonG42O said:
lol right, if i fought these guys i would make sure i learned how to check kicks, because those MFers hurt so bad coming from a pro fighter. ive gotten leg kicked by a local pro fighter and it goes numb right away, i cant imagine eating one from brandon vera or someone like that.
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The inside ones hurt even more when there's an open stance. My vastus medialis was bruised for over a week.
 
haha its ok man im not calling you stupid i always make some really bone head mistakes like that. i found a good website that has so many MMA videos so i can look up a ton of fights from pride and fighters history. ive only been a seriuos fan for 2 years and a regular fan for about 4. seriously tho everyone knew his ground game sucked why didnt he jsut use his money to get trained and do that everyday. it amazes me. and as far as page haha he does know BJJ just not brown or black belt. CB dollaway submitted him in practice easily.
 
well good news i just read kimbo came to American Top Team on thursday morning(first time in like 2 years) to train the ground game. He is also going to be training there under contract hahaha thats a good thing so he doesnt storm out again. I hope to see a better kimbo. I also think that in the TUF finale they will match him up against a ****ty wrestler to give him even more time to work on his ground.
 
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