LeanGuy
Active member
haha, no sleep is my downfall... I didn't fall asleep at all last nite
Starting hCG monotherapy
- Thread starter LeanGuy
- Start date
haha, no sleep is my downfall... I didn't fall asleep at all last nite
thenxtgrt1
Member
How did you and your dr go about figuring out that dopamine was low? Was it just by how you felt?
LeanGuy
Active member
plasma catecholamines and 24h urinary catecholamines
thenxtgrt1
Member
That's very interesting...I didn't know this type of testing was available. Were you low in both plasma and urine?
LeanGuy
Active member
still waiting on urine results
LeanGuy
Active member
HCG not working!!!
Not good news... I'm either desensitized to HCG, or I'm hyperexcreting the testosterone. These labs were taken on day 3 before my shot. I'm doing 400iu E3D. I don't know if I should try more frequent dosing like 250iu EOD, or if I should just go to test cyp shots. I'm tired of this rollercoaster ride.
Testosterone, Serum 344 ng/dL [241-827] ** last time was mid-500
Estradiol, Sensitive PENDING
Ferritin, Serum 33 ng/mL [22-322] ** this went down from 80 while taking iron!
Total T4 7.8 ug/dL [4.5-12.0]
Free T3 3.8 pg/mL [2.3-4.2] ** thyroid looks good! only taking tyrosine/iodine
Cortisol 17.0 ug/dL [3.1-22.4] ** not bad; did not take HC this morning
Not good news... I'm either desensitized to HCG, or I'm hyperexcreting the testosterone. These labs were taken on day 3 before my shot. I'm doing 400iu E3D. I don't know if I should try more frequent dosing like 250iu EOD, or if I should just go to test cyp shots. I'm tired of this rollercoaster ride.
Testosterone, Serum 344 ng/dL [241-827] ** last time was mid-500
Estradiol, Sensitive PENDING
Ferritin, Serum 33 ng/mL [22-322] ** this went down from 80 while taking iron!
Total T4 7.8 ug/dL [4.5-12.0]
Free T3 3.8 pg/mL [2.3-4.2] ** thyroid looks good! only taking tyrosine/iodine
Cortisol 17.0 ug/dL [3.1-22.4] ** not bad; did not take HC this morning
colkurtz_spf
The horror
Aren't you on the gel? I seriously doubt that a dose as small as yours caused desensitization. I don't know why anyone would think that increasing the frequency of testicular stimulation is a way to avoid desensitization.
When I did the combination of gel and HCG my TT numbers maintained on the first draw (around 1000), and then dropped to 632 on the second. After four months, I decided to go back on monotherapy and my TT was back to 1000. The Gel changes things. I don't think the HCG factors much into T production unless you're doing injections. Transdermal application should keep your T at a pretty consistent level. I think in this protocol HCG primarily keeps the balls full and producing other hormones. I wouldn't doubt that your E2 is elevated.
LeanGuy
Active member
Yeah I was doing a little gel, but my numbers have been dropping even before that... last test was mid 500's with no gel. I'm not sure what to do next... I'd like to try a different HCG dosing before going to t shots. I was thinking more frequent because I am a hypermetabolizer... I think I burn through the HCG very quickly. I know you like E4D but I think it would cause a big dip for me.
I need to see my E2 before deciding anything... but I am on adex and I don't have E2 symptoms.
colkurtz_spf
The horror
HCG causes a natural rhythm in T production which means your levels rise and fall during the day. I try to draw blood between 7 and 7:30 AM 36 hours after my shot. When I draw closer to 8 AM I notice a big difference. A few times I chose to wait another 24 hours and the results were better. I don't inject every 4 days. I inject twice per week (a three and four day break). This week I took a five day break, and my libido got stronger.
LeanGuy
Active member
My test was done at 8am; 36h after my last shot. I'll try skipping an xtra day and see what happens. I'm also ditching the gel, didn't notice any benefit. I'd really like to stick with HCG mono, I don't see any reason it should stop working at my age. But if I don't produce some decent labs, my doc won't refill the script.
colkurtz_spf
The horror
It's not really the 36 hours that's critical. It's the time of day. The closer to 7 AM the better. Your levels fluctuate during the day.
colkurtz_spf
The horror
You certainly don't need Adex. Is the HCG raising your TT at all? I don't remember your baseline.
LeanGuy
Active member
It did at first:
01/2009 BASELINE / TT:450 / E2:12
02/2009 250iu E3D / TT:678 / E2:21
03/2009 300iu E3D / TT:767 / E2:36 (started .25mg adex E3D)
05/2009 350iu E3D / TT:557 / E2:14 (added a little T-gel after this, seemed to make things worse)
06/2009 400iu E3D / TT:344 / E2:9 (stopped adex!!)
I may try a more frequent dose after all, just as an experiment. Here is a quote from someone on another board:
"I have been on 200 IU ED for about a year and it has been working great. I have to take Adex .25 E3D to keep the E2 in check but overall, this has created a very stable TRT for me. My total T ranges are in the 700's with free and bioavailabe in the upper third of ranges. This dosage was slowly tittrated by my doctor from a starrting dose of 75 IU/day."
LeanGuy
Active member
reduced sex drive, reduced strength & have lost some muscle weight
LeanGuy
Active member
I seem to metabolize everything very quickly, so I'm going to try more frequent shots. some doctors recommend HCG done this way. I have nothing to lose.
LeanGuy
Active member
yes I believe most don't make enough testosterone on mono
thenxtgrt1
Member
Leanguy...I can definitely relate to your experience. I've now been on hcg for about a month and a half. I should have lab results in soon. Thus far the results have been uneven. The good: energy, well-being, leaner, and stronger. The bad: no improvement in sex drive, no increase in ball size. So basically I don't know what the hell it's doing. I can load up on creatine and protein to obtain these effects. Right now I'm disappointed to say the least.
Currently I've been doing 320 iu EOD, but I will be trying every day dosing. Just like you I have also been labeled a hypermetabolizer. So I'm thinking this protocol may help. Do you know of any other hypermetabolizers on hcg mono that have had success injecting every day?
Here's something that's weird: the only way my libido gets a real boost is if I apply 7,8 benzoflavone/resveratrol transdermal. Have you tried this? Has anyone else found this to be the case? Or if someone could explain this, I'd love to hear it.
Currently I've been doing 320 iu EOD, but I will be trying every day dosing. Just like you I have also been labeled a hypermetabolizer. So I'm thinking this protocol may help. Do you know of any other hypermetabolizers on hcg mono that have had success injecting every day?
Here's something that's weird: the only way my libido gets a real boost is if I apply 7,8 benzoflavone/resveratrol transdermal. Have you tried this? Has anyone else found this to be the case? Or if someone could explain this, I'd love to hear it.
colkurtz_spf
The horror
I think it's a big mistake. HCG receptors need to clear for it to be effective. I would inject 500 to 750 IUs twice per week (3 and 4 day break), and not every three days. HCG does not behave like testosterone. I doubt it's a metabolic matter. I got my protocol from a doctor who has had patients using HCG only for 15 years. The key is finding the right dose. Yours is probably too low. As for desensitization, my doctor had patients injecting over 4000 IUs per week for over a decade. Of course that was his word. I never saw the data, but he seemed honorable. He became expensive, and I don't see him anymore, but I use his protocol and owe him my success these past three years.
There may be another reason for your results. It seems odd that your numbers would go down, and I seriously doubt it's about desensitization. Also, how would the daily stimulation of the testes prevent it.
There may be another reason for your results. It seems odd that your numbers would go down, and I seriously doubt it's about desensitization. Also, how would the daily stimulation of the testes prevent it.
LeanGuy
Active member
I'm going to try injecting ED for 1 month and run labs. If that doesn't work out I'll try your 2x week. The main problem is my doc is unlikely to give me a higher dose... he barely wanted to give me HCG at all. Doesn't HCG mimic LH which is normally released in a daily circadian cycle?
colkurtz_spf
The horror
It mimics LH in it's function but I doubt it has the same half life. Here's a study you should read:
Invalid Link Removed
LeanGuy
Active member
Thanks, this is an important part:
"We generally performed hCG injections every 2 weeks because it has been reported that the binding capacity of testicular hCG receptors is significantly reduced for 5 days after injection, begins to increase on day 7, and returns to pre-administration levels 14 days after a single administration of 5000IU hCG [30]."
I'm trying to get my other doctor to rewrite my script so I can get larger doses. I could do monday 400iu and thursday 500iu. Does that sound right? Do bigger doses create more E2?
LeanGuy
Active member
My Dr started me out slow... 250iu E3D.. worked great... for awhile. AFAIK DIM/I3C doesn't reduce estrogen, it just promotes a healthier metabolic pathway. If HCG is done right (dose increased slowly with the correct labs run), you shouldn't need much estrogen control... maybe a little adex.
I just took a 4 day break from HCG... this morning I mixed a new vial and injected 400iu. I'm doing the twice weekly schedule for a month... run labs... if still no good I'll try 150iu ED... run labs... if no good I'm going to test cyp + HCG.
LeanGuy
Active member
For one, my doc won't write me a script for that much HCG.. I'd have to find a new doc or an online source which can be sketchy.
colkurtz_spf
The horror
If you're injecting twice per week you'd be better off with 500 IUs. 400 IUs E3D would be roughly 4,000 per month and 500 twice per week would be about the same.
LeanGuy
Active member
will do. I hope this works.
colkurtz_spf
The horror
I bet it does. Good luck.
LeanGuy
Active member
You know what, it's improving. My doc has me taking tenex which blocks norepinephrine and it seems to be helping. Apparently he was correct... my sleep problem is from elevated NE.
So far I don't feel any different doing hcg 500iu twice a week. Not much morning wood to speak of
Doubt its high E2 because I never felt the T boost. Labs next week. The folks at the lab think I'm crazy because I'm there so often. One of them accused me of doing roids because I check testosterone so often and gave me the whole lecture about how they cause cancer blah blah blah
colkurtz_spf
The horror
You know what, it's improving. My doc has me taking tenex which blocks norepinephrine and it seems to be helping. Apparently he was correct... my sleep problem is from elevated NE.
So far I don't feel any different doing hcg 500iu twice a week. Not much morning wood to speak of
It's hard to get a high level on your dose. I decreased my dose to 750 twice per week from 1500, and my TT dropped From over 1000 to 670. I didn't feel bad so I only increased my dose to 800 twice per week.
LeanGuy
Active member
I think you're on the highest dose of anyone I know. If I need more I think I'll switch from mono to test cyp + hcg
colkurtz_spf
The horror
FYI, yours is the lowest dose for monotherapy that I have ever heard of. I was impressed that you had any reaction at all. Others have posted here taking between 3,000 to 4,000 IUs per week. The truth is that's standard for many. I'm only on 1600 per week. I was on 8,000 to 10,000 per week for close to a year. Now that is high, and 3.5 years later I'm still a great responder. I wasn't desensitized. There is no real research to back up that claim. Just a study done on health young men who were shut down through steroid administration. I'm living proof to the contrary. Lets see some case studies of HRT patients who lost sensitivity through HCG, and not because they are in their 70s.
If you're primary then cyp or gel is the way to go, but if you aren't what's the point? Why wouldn't you just increase your HCG dose? You're still young and can enjoy a natural testosterone rhythm.
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colkurtz_spf
The horror
I've done it EOD, E3D and twice per week as my doctor recommended. My best results are at twice per week. I believe it gives my receptors a chance to reset. I've had TT between 670 and 1425 and Ft between 156 and 356. The results did not always correspond to dosage. E2 response was also a factor.
Currently I'm on 800 IUs twice per week and feeling pretty good. My sweet spot has been at 1000 twice per week. At that dose I usually have TT around 950, Ft around 230 and E2 at 23. I've been trying to reduce both HCG and Arimidex. At 2000 IUs per week I need to take .5 with each injection. Now I'm down to .33 per injection. I don't worry about taking Arimidex. My blood work is exceptional.
I've attached a panel drawn three years ago after I was completely shut down from testosterone gel. Before gel therapy my TT was 475. Here you'll see it went down to the 90s, and that was after two weeks off and two weeks of HCG - very depressing. When this was drawn I had been on 10,000 IUs of HCG per week for ten weeks.
I've never posted a picture of myself so here's one I just snapped off. I'm 51 and feeling great, just like the Sally Omaly character from SNL, but I still have another 15 pounds to lose.
Attachments
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colkurtz_spf
The horror
That's interesting, but doesn't make sense based on the research I've read. One paper is listed on this thread. My doctor's protocol has worked perfectly for me during the past three years. He's not as popular as Shippen on this thread, but he published seven books, and was given a multi million dollar grant by the University of Miami Med school to conduct research on HGH use in a diverse population. He lectures there on anti-aging protocols.
Nevertheless, I have results to go by. Why should I change?
LeanGuy
Active member
I would much rather stay with HCG mono. I will try increasing the dose if needed. I got my new dr to take over my HRT so I don't think it will be an issue getting more. I am a combination of primary and secondary, but mainly secondary. Primary due to large varicocele... left nut much smaller than the right. I had an embolization but it came back... waste of time. Anyway, thanks for your comments and congrats on your progress.
dailychange
New member
How you making out?
jinxie
Well-known member
Nice work Colkurtz. I hope I look that good when I'm 51. I sure as hell know my hair won't be that dark! (I've got the George Clooney thing going, which doesn't really bother me, as at least I have a full head of hair.)
I'm doing 714 IUs E3Ds, which is roughly the same amount per day that you are doing. You've really reduced your dose. What motivated that?
I'm doing 714 IUs E3Ds, which is roughly the same amount per day that you are doing. You've really reduced your dose. What motivated that?
colkurtz_spf
The horror
Thanks for the compliment. I lowered my dose in an effort to reduce Arimidex, and wanted to know my minimum dose. So far I feel great.
jinxie
Well-known member
Yeah, I think that's a good idea, given the effects it can have on your lipid profile. My doc told me to keep it at 1 mg or less, and you're good. He said that this amount can actually be helpful beyond E2 control, but I don't recall his logic.
Glad to hear your feeling well. I assume by that, you also mean that your lifts haven't been affected adversely.
Keep up the solid work, brother!
J
colkurtz_spf
The horror
My lipid profile was fine at 3 MG per week. Still, you never know what longterm use of anything can do.
My strength has actually increased. The funny thing is the diet I've been on, Jay Robb"s Fruit diet. I eat nothing but fresh fruit every 2 to 4 hours then a raw vegetable salad with a lean piece of protein, and some steamed or sauteed vegetables on the side for dinner. Saturday nights I have a cheat meal. Occasionally when I have a business lunch I'll have a salad with some protein, and on Saturdays when I workout in the morning I'll have a fruit smoothie with a scoop of zero carb weigh post workout. In the beginning I was afraid I'd lose muscle mass and strength, but the contrary has happened. All I'm losing is fat.