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Toremifene reducing puffy nips?

USMC7051

USMC7051

New member
Im going to be running an Mdrol cycle in a few months and for my SERM for PCT im using Toremifene at (90,60,60,30). i have pretty puffy nips, im not sure if its gyno or not, from puberty. But Im wondering if anybody has had natural puffy nips, or gyno, and went into PCT with Toremifene it reduced them?

also..has anyone experienced or heard of any cases where Toremifene reduced or prevented gyno but later on down the road symptoms came up?

I guess my biggest concern with running a cycle of Mdrol is gyno, as I dont want my nips any bigger or puffyer than they are, and from what I have heard from a lot of guys in the gym, and reading forums is that Toremifene is an amazing SERM all around and will prevent gyno.
 
I noticed a very slight reduction in prepubertal gyno on a 6 week course of torem, nothing major though, like 5 - 10 % reduction.
 
If avoiding gyno is your primary concern, why didn't you choose Nolva? It is the most proven SERM at blocking estrogen in breast tissue. Torem might be as good, but there just isn't any hard evidence yet.
 
Gator 87 said:
If avoiding gyno is your primary concern, why didn't you choose Nolva? It is the most proven SERM at blocking estrogen in breast tissue. Torem might be as good, but there just isn't any hard evidence yet.
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From what i have gathered on forums here and from several guys at the gym who have used torem, it seems torem is just as effective all around, if not better than nolva, with less side effects. I have also read that nolva can cause delayed gyno.
 
That was after a 5 week high dose epistane cycle. I ran the toremifene, 120(4days), 90(3 days) 60,60,30,15, 15 every other day.
 
Gator 87 said:
If avoiding gyno is your primary concern, why didn't you choose Nolva? It is the most proven SERM at blocking estrogen in breast tissue. Torem might be as good, but there just isn't any hard evidence yet.
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USMC7051 said:
From what i have gathered on forums here and from several guys at the gym who have used torem, it seems torem is just as effective all around, if not better than nolva, with less side effects. I have also read that nolva can cause delayed gyno.
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If you look at the studies in women, about 25% of time nolva has low to minimal effectiveness. They've tracked this to a specific gene which they now can test for so then if the woman has that, they use something else to treat breast cancer. I believe there is something similar happening in men and thats where delayed gyno comes from.
 
There is no such thing as "delayed gyno".
Gyno that arises after PCT is just the product of a failed PCT that didn't fully restart the HPTA. This subject always turns into a huge ****-show on bb.com, with noobs screaming "delayed gyno!!" and vets explaining why the term doesn't even make sense, lol.
 
Gator 87 said:
There is no such thing as "delayed gyno".
Gyno that arises after PCT is just the product of a failed PCT that didn't fully restart the HPTA. This subject always turns into a huge ****-show on bb.com, with noobs screaming "delayed gyno!!" and vets explaining why the term doesn't even make sense, lol.
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So if i ran a 3 week cycle of Mdrol (10,20,20) and my PCT looked like this:

-Tormifene (90,60,60,30)
-Cycle Support
-Axis Labs HyperTEST
-SNS Reduce XT
-Multi Vitamin
-Fish Oil

..would this be enough to restart my HPTA and prevent gyno?

and gyno that occurs after PCT is from a "failed PCT", meaning someone went on a cycle and didnt use a SERM im assuming?
 
USMC7051 said:
So if i ran a 3 week cycle of Mdrol (10,20,20) and my PCT looked like this:

-Tormifene (90,60,60,30)
-Cycle Support
-Axis Labs HyperTEST
-SNS Reduce XT
-Multi Vitamin
-Fish Oil

..would this be enough to restart my HPTA and prevent gyno?

and gyno that occurs after PCT is from a "failed PCT", meaning someone went on a cycle and didnt use a SERM im assuming?
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That should be more than enough for a light 3 week cycle. Usually, when people claim to have gotten "delayed gyno" it was after a heavy DS cycle with an OTC PCT. Their test production just never got back up to par, so the estrogen eventually started causing problems. Since these newbs didn't have a SERM, they didn't do anything until it was too late.
 
EasyEJL said:
Most delayed gyno cases I've heard about were superdrol cycles followed with nolva pct
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OK, well that still makes sense, since Nolva isn't the best SERM as far as restarting the HPTA goes. And were these mild-normal SD cycles, or crazy-ass bridges and stuff?

Also, I've heard plenty of claims about fake/underdosed Nolva from research chem sites...so that could account for some of these cases.
 
normal cycles, but the majority of them came from early clones too, shortly after AX/DS superdrol was yanked from the shelves.
 
Gator 87 said:
Yes, provided it is legit. (PM me where you got it from)
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alright will do..also, im going to the doctor saturday for a check up and was going to ask to get bloodwork done. What do I need to tell my doc i need looked at so i can compare results before and after my cycle? or is it unnecessary to get bloodwork done for this cycle?
 
Gator 87 said:
OK, well that still makes sense, since Nolva isn't the best SERM as far as restarting the HPTA goes. And were these mild-normal SD cycles, or crazy-ass bridges and stuff?

Also, I've heard plenty of claims about fake/underdosed Nolva from research chem sites...so that could account for some of these cases.
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I thought that it was more of an estrogen rebound issue (Of course "delayed gyno" is not the proper way of describing it); as in your hpta has been shut down and then when the nolva kicks in and LH rises and therefore your testosterone rises at this point if nolva is discontinued too abruptly and or you did not run an AI inverse and then taper down you could then develope the gyno due to the increased estrogen levels while your hpta is still balancing out.

I'm just trying to make sure I understand it all correctly. I am a noob but have been doing ALOT of research on the subject because I plan on running my first cycle sometime in the future. I can't decide between H-drol, Epistane/Havoc or P-mag.
 
Mikey851 said:
I thought that it was more of an estrogen rebound issue (Of course "delayed gyno" is not the proper way of describing it); as in your hpta has been shut down and then when the nolva kicks in and LH rises and therefore your testosterone rises at this point if nolva is discontinued too abruptly and or you did not run an AI inverse and then taper down you could then develope the gyno due to the increased estrogen levels while your hpta is still balancing out.
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Yeah. That's why this happens most often with OTC PCTs, since they aren't too effective at restarting the HPTA (it seems that they mostly just control estrogen while the HPTA quickly restarts itself from a 4 week cycle). I was trying to account for why it might happen with Nolva.
 
so should i also run an AI in my PCT? i have read that running an AI in PCT along with a SERM can cause rebound gyno..

also back to my bloodwork question above..what do i need to ask the doc i want looked at?
 
USMC7051 said:
so should i also run an AI in my PCT? i have read that running an AI in PCT along with a SERM can cause rebound gyno..

also back to my bloodwork question above..what do i need to ask the doc i want looked at?
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From what i've read you can skip the AI in most cases as long as your SERM is legit and you dose it correctly; but if you do use an AI you must taper off of it slowly. If you discontinue an AI abruptly your body will be taken by suprise by the rebound estrogen. I would say after alot of research I have found that this is an area where alot of people disagree.

As far as the bloodwork, I'm not experienced with PHs but I do have experience with TRT and both carry the same concerns while on cycle and after. Alot of doctors will do the bare minimum for testing especially if you don't have great insurance. I would at the very least make sure to see my Estradiol (E2, may have to run ultrasensitive, it's a lower scale for men, otherwise your result will just say <50 or something like that) and my Total testosterone.

Based on the assumption that you are healthy for the most part and are just wanting numbers for your cycle and to avoid gyno IMO I would like to see:
Total testosterone
Bio available testosterone (Free testosterone would suffice)
Estradiol
SHBG
LH
FSH

You can get gyno from prolactin/progesterone as well so you would want to include it in your post cycle labs if you had symptoms of gyno as it would tell you what levels you need to correct to aleviate it. Or better yet you could get this lab drawn while on cycle about midway through to see what your numbers are looking like.

I'm sure I left some things out, but based on my experience with TRT and what I've read about pro hormones those would be good baseline numbers to compare before and after your cycle.
 
Mikey851 said:
From what i've read you can skip the AI in most cases as long as your SERM is legit and you dose it correctly; but if you do use an AI you must taper off of it slowly. If you discontinue an AI abruptly your body will be taken by suprise by the rebound estrogen. I would say after alot of research I have found that this is an area where alot of people disagree.

As far as the bloodwork, I'm not experienced with PHs but I do have experience with TRT and both carry the same concerns while on cycle and after. Alot of doctors will do the bare minimum for testing especially if you don't have great insurance. I would at the very least make sure to see my Estradiol (E2, may have to run ultrasensitive, it's a lower scale for men, otherwise your result will just say <50 or something like that) and my Total testosterone.

Based on the assumption that you are healthy for the most part and are just wanting numbers for your cycle and to avoid gyno IMO I would like to see:
Total testosterone
Bio available testosterone (Free testosterone would suffice)
Estradiol
SHBG
LH
FSH

You can get gyno from prolactin/progesterone as well so you would want to include it in your post cycle labs if you had symptoms of gyno as it would tell you what levels you need to correct to aleviate it. Or better yet you could get this lab drawn while on cycle about midway through to see what your numbers are looking like.

I'm sure I left some things out, but based on my experience with TRT and what I've read about pro hormones those would be good baseline numbers to compare before and after your cycle.
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thanks for the response man..i think im going to leave the AI out of my PCT. i have a bottle of Inhibit-E, but from what i have gathered it sounds like i shouldnt need it as my Torem will do the trick.

So as for the bloodwork, i have great insurance so that will not be an issue, but what do i tell my doctor i need these things look at for? just say im curious for personal reasons? lol
 
USMC7051 said:
thanks for the response man..i think im going to leave the AI out of my PCT. i have a bottle of Inhibit-E, but from what i have gathered it sounds like i shouldnt need it as my Torem will do the trick.

So as for the bloodwork, i have great insurance so that will not be an issue, but what do i tell my doctor i need these things look at for? just say im curious for personal reasons? lol
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I would tell him you've researched on the internet and feel as though you may have low testosterone. Tell him you have a low libido or something like that (of course you can't say that you can't gain muscle because by your picture you obviously can). Also tell him about your concern with your puffy nipples; he will probably suspect that you got them from using PH or steroids; just tell him the truth. That SHOULD be enough to warrant at least a total test/ estradiol lab; if he's really a good doc he'll run all of what I mentioned above plus a full thyroid panel along with cortisol and a few others just to get a baseline of your health.

Good luck. Being honest to your doctor in your situation will probably pay off better than to lie to him. Don't tell him youre about to run a PH cycle but let him know about all of your concerns. Good luck.
 
Mikey851 said:
I would tell him you've researched on the internet and feel as though you may have low testosterone. Tell him you have a low libido or something like that (of course you can't say that you can't gain muscle because by your picture you obviously can). Also tell him about your concern with your puffy nipples; he will probably suspect that you got them from using PH or steroids; just tell him the truth. That SHOULD be enough to warrant at least a total test/ estradiol lab; if he's really a good doc he'll run all of what I mentioned above plus a full thyroid panel along with cortisol and a few others just to get a baseline of your health.

Good luck. Being honest to your doctor in your situation will probably pay off better than to lie to him. Don't tell him youre about to run a PH cycle but let him know about all of your concerns. Good luck.
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Awesome man thanks a lot. im new to all this so i appreciate the help and info.
 
1HP said:
I'm probably stating the obvious here but man, if you already have puffy nips and dont want to make things worse, dont cycle. Whatever you do you're risking making it worse then it is now. Just read around on the boards and see how many actually develop gyno. It's simply a very common side effect of cycling.

That said, toremifene made my chest looking real flat and tight, flatter then tamoxifen. Ofcourse it all went away a few weeks after getting off.. Raloxifene seems to be most effective for me so far but doesnt do a very good job at restarting your hpta.
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I had bloodwork done a couple weeks ago and mentioned my nips to the doc and all my levels came back normal, even my prolactin/progesterone levels. He said my nips are just naturally puffy and that any gyno I could have got from puberty would have been cleared up by now.

But if I went on a cycle and if I started to notice any symptoms of gyno occuring couldnt I just stop the cycle and go straight into my PCT and clear it all up?
 
USMC7051 said:
I had bloodwork done a couple weeks ago and mentioned my nips to the doc and all my levels came back normal, even my prolactin/progesterone levels. He said my nips are just naturally puffy and that any gyno I could have got from puberty would have been cleared up by now.

But if I went on a cycle and if I started to notice any symptoms of gyno occuring couldnt I just stop the cycle and go straight into my PCT and clear it all up?
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It would depend on what prohormone you were using. If you were using something like Havoc you shouldn't (I say shouldn't because there aren't any guarantees when messing with hormones) see any issues with gyno while on cycle. You would however need to be extra careful post cycle in your case and make sure you dose your SERM correctly.

If you were using a prohormone that can aromatize you would have to worry about it on cycle as well and you would need an aromatase inhibitor to prevent it.
 
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