PCT question

[ryane87]

It seems like this would be a good place for this question. Seems the PCT forum is generally dead, or at least not as alive as this one. I am trying to get a handle on SERMS. I have normally have gone the natty test booster/AI route for PCT and it has served me well through 3 cycles. I didn't even hear about nolva or clomid until I joined this site. My question is why are more people not suggesting torem if it is supposed to be better? Is it a matter of cost? Or is it just over-hyped? With all the problems one could find themselves with taking clomid or nolva, I am more inclined to go the Torem route, if a SERM at all. Like a sample PCT of Torem, cortisol reducer, and natty test producer. I didn't include AI because I am not gyno-prone, but realize it could be needed at some point. Or in my case, maybe natty test producer, OTC AI, and cortisol reducer.

Also, there seems to be conflicting evidence in regards to an AI PCT. Would one low dose it the first couple of weeks, one week of high dose, then the last week tapered back down? Particularly if you are going the SERM route. I'm really just kind of curious and would like informed answers versus being flamed for never doing a SERM. I know quite a few on here don't use them. Just trying to really nail down a solid PCT while trying to avoid the nolva and clomid because the almost seem to be more trouble than they are worth. I could be wrong, though. Thanks.

 

[LAGear]

It seems like this would be a good place for this question. Seems the PCT forum is generally dead, or at least not as alive as this one. I am trying to get a handle on SERMS. I have normally have gone the natty test booster/AI route for PCT and it has served me well through 3 cycles. I didn't even hear about nolva or clomid until I joined this site. My question is why are more people not suggesting torem if it is supposed to be better? Is it a matter of cost? Or is it just over-hyped? With all the problems one could find themselves with taking clomid or nolva, I am more inclined to go the Torem route, if a SERM at all. Like a sample PCT of Torem, cortisol reducer, and natty test producer. I didn't include AI because I am not gyno-prone, but realize it could be needed at some point. Or in my case, maybe natty test producer, OTC AI, and cortisol reducer.

Also, there seems to be conflicting evidence in regards to an AI PCT. Would one low dose it the first couple of weeks, one week of high dose, then the last week tapered back down? Particularly if you are going the SERM route. I'm really just kind of curious and would like informed answers versus being flamed for never doing a SERM. I know quite a few on here don't use them. Just trying to really nail down a solid PCT while trying to avoid the nolva and clomid because the almost seem to be more trouble than they are worth. I could be wrong, though. Thanks.

I love this post. Someone else who is using their head instead of being a follower.

If you do your research on multiple sites you'll find that sites that have the most active supplement company reps are the sites that are most pro-OTC. There's a lot of money in this and the reps would love for everyone to believe that OTC is as good as using a SERM. And I think people start to believe the hype over time.

The prevailing reasons most people skip the SERM is because they don't know where to get it, they think they can "get away without it" or they mistakenly believe that SERMs are "bad" and should be avoided if possible.

Torem is especially good with respect to sides and efficacy. At least this is what people who use it report. I won't have first hand knowledge about this for another nine days when I start using it.

And I too question the need for an AI if you're using a SERM and test booster in your PCT. I've yet to get an explanation that makes sense for why you'd want to add an AI into the mix.

I'm with the OP here and would love to hear some good discussion on this topic. I would love it if someone could convince me (with facts) that OTC is at least as good as Torem. Subbed.

 

[lennoxchi]

i'm from the SERM side of the fence. i always use one, even if it's just for a short time in PCT. the only time to use an AI is after your SERM, and i usually start with a high dose and ramp down, reason being, as i ramp down (decrease my dosage per MG. every week) my estro has a chance to get back to where it should be. but again, i always use a SERM, could just be paranoia about getting Gyno, but it has never hurt me, i keep the dosages low and use them respectively.

 

[mooch2321]

many guys use the ai to avoid estrogen rebound from the serm....nolva stops estrogen from binding at the receptor site but not from aromatizing....so later in your pct as your test levels start rebounding you might build up some excess estrogen...this is where the ai comes in....now on paper this could never happen because other places in your body(bones...etc...) than just breast tissue should be acting like a sink for the excess estrogen....but things dont happen the same way on paper as they do in the real world....

 

[LAGear]

many guys use the ai to avoid estrogen rebound from the serm....nolva stops estrogen from binding at the receptor site but not from aromatizing....so later in your pct as your test levels start rebounding you might build up some excess estrogen...this is where the ai comes in....now on paper this could never happen because other places in your body(bones...etc...) than just breast tissue should be acting like a sink for the excess estrogen....but things dont happen the same way on paper as they do in the real world....

So on paper there shouldn't be excess estrogen.

Assuming things actually do work out the way they are supposed on paper -- there is no excess estrogen after using the SERM. In that case if you start using an AI aren't you keeping E levels too low? Suppressed E isn't good to begin with but then when you stop the AI now you've opened the door to E rebound.

Or is your point that we KNOW that it doesn't work like it's supposed to on paper and there is definitely excess estrogen after the SERM?

 

[mooch2321]

ive been told by people much smarter than me, whose opinions i respect greatly, that their is no rebound when using a serm, but they couldnt explain what happened to me personally when i got a gyno flair up a bout a week after the pct on my first cycle....(nolva has a 7 day half life)....so as stated earlier...things dont always pan out on paper like they do in the real world....thats why i choose to incorporate an ai into my pct....

 

[kdpboa]

mooch- when do you like start you ai? week 3?

 

[LAGear]

ive been told by people much smarter than me, whose opinions i respect greatly, that their is no rebound when using a serm, but they couldnt explain what happened to me personally when i got a gyno flair up a bout a week after the pct on my first cycle....(nolva has a 7 day half life)....so as stated earlier...things dont always pan out on paper like they do in the real world....thats why i choose to incorporate an ai into my pct....

What was your first cycle?

I'll assume that since you've been using an AI + SERM that you've not had any gyno problems?

You said you use Nolva, but what is your AI of choice? Any experience with Formex?

 

[mooch2321]

What was your first cycle?

I'll assume that since you've been using an AI + SERM that you've not had any gyno problems?

You said you use Nolva, but what is your AI of choice? Any experience with Formex?

i have had a TON of gyno problems....that is why i do what i do....but my first cycle was a straight test cycle that i used clomid and nolva for and had a "rebound" when i come off of nolva....no experience with formex or any formestane product really....ive used atd(didnt like) and 6-bromo(extensively) but its gotten to the point where its almost just cheaper to run arimidex....thats what ive used mostly of late....

 

[LAGear]

Mooch - So you're in the SERM + AI camp. Are you in the camp that thinks a SERM is not needed for something like h-drol?

When using a SERM when do you start your AI and how do you dose it? There are so many protocols, I'm curious to know what's worked best for you since you've done a lot of cycles.