Starting hCG monotherapy
- Thread starter LeanGuy
- Start date
LeanGuy
Active member
E2 went a little high (35-40) so I'm taking .25mg adex with each shot. I have some new lab results any day now so I'll know how well its working. Will post when I get 'em
LeanGuy
Active member
I don't really know when is the best time, so I just go when convenient.
colkurtz_spf
The horror
I inject at night and draw approximately 36 hours later around 7 to 7:30 AM. I like to measure peak levels.
LeanGuy
Active member
LABS
Ok, my labs are not so good this time. TT has dropped substantially, yet E2 remains on the high end?? Adex not doing much? What is causing this E2... it sure isn't DHEA which has also dropped (probably due to HC I am taking). I'd also like to have a little more DHT because my libido is just "ok". I hope I'm not getting desensitized to HCG already. At this point I may need to increase the HCG and arimidex (maybe 400iu E4D). Or I can "top off" with a little T-gel and it will boost DHT also :thinking:
300iu hcg E3D + .25 adex E3D
Testosterone, Serum 557 ng/dL [241-827]
Free Testosterone(Direct) 14.5 pg/mL [8.7-25.1]
Estradiol 31 pg/mL [0-53]
Dihydrotestosterone 48 ng/dL [30-85]
DHEA-Sulfate 195 ug/dL [120-520]
PSA 0.8 [0-4]
Ok, my labs are not so good this time. TT has dropped substantially, yet E2 remains on the high end?? Adex not doing much? What is causing this E2... it sure isn't DHEA which has also dropped (probably due to HC I am taking). I'd also like to have a little more DHT because my libido is just "ok". I hope I'm not getting desensitized to HCG already. At this point I may need to increase the HCG and arimidex (maybe 400iu E4D). Or I can "top off" with a little T-gel and it will boost DHT also :thinking:
300iu hcg E3D + .25 adex E3D
Testosterone, Serum 557 ng/dL [241-827]
Free Testosterone(Direct) 14.5 pg/mL [8.7-25.1]
Estradiol 31 pg/mL [0-53]
Dihydrotestosterone 48 ng/dL [30-85]
DHEA-Sulfate 195 ug/dL [120-520]
PSA 0.8 [0-4]
tyler23
New member
I just started HCG three weeks ago for secondary. I'm currently on 500 ml 3x/week but I am a bit disappointed as I feel no different at all. Perhaps I haven't given it enough time, but after reading these threads I am wondering if it is necessary to start out at a higher dose for awhile, then drop down to maintenance. It looks like that's how it worked for you, Col. Is there merit to this thinking, or do I just need to be a bit more patient?
BTW, I am 37 and my TT was 283 in a range of 400 - 1080.
Tyler
BTW, I am 37 and my TT was 283 in a range of 400 - 1080.
Tyler
LeanGuy
Active member
this was not the case for me. 500iu e3d is not a small dose. wait until your 1st set of labs before changing doses; at least get total T, free T & estradiol (sensitive)
tyler23
New member
Thanks LG. I'll sit tight. I am scheduled to get TT & E2 tested in three weeks. Doc's visit in five. I guess I was just hoping to feel "something" soon after starting.
LeanGuy
Active member
some people do, some take longer. I had a decent response at first and since then just "ok". I've had times when I swear my T was low and it ended up being in the 700's! other factors are important for feeling good like e2, cortisol, dhea & thyroid. I'm still working on these.
tyler23
New member
Yeah, we measured morning cortisol and it was way low-normal. He's going to be testing that again (along with PM and maybe midday) too in a few weeks. My E2 was 1.5 pg/mL (range < 2.5) based on saliva test, so I will be interested to see if that's changed. He's fully willing to put me on Arimidex if necessary. My DHEA was way low normal as well; I need to ask him what we'll do about that.
He's also is testing progesterone (he has me using Progonol now), SHBG and Vit D. I am interested to see how everything's changed. But frankly, if I don't start feeling something positive, I am going to wonder what it's all for.
LeanGuy
Active member
without enough cortisol, your body can't "use" testosterone which means you won't feel much. also don't go by saliva tests except for cortisol... they are not accurate... I definitely wouldn't take arimidex based on saliva results. I'm not giving you medical advice here, just saying what I would do
LeanGuy
Active member
I wish I knew... I didn't change anything! I was bummed when I saw it.
colkurtz_spf
The horror
500 E3D is a small dose. I started at 10,000 IUs per week for the first 8 months - not that I recommend that, but after a solid year of dosing a minimum of 8000 IUs per week I wasn't desensitized. I respond well to 500 IUs three years later, and I'm a lot older than you. You need to take your shot at night and draw blood between 7 -7:30 Am 36 hours later. HCG doesn't taper off like test cyp. Your T levels will fluctuate during the day.
I don't think your E2 is high. It's in a normal range and shouldn't cause any side effects. Your DHT level is fine too. I like mine in the high 70s but I doubt I would consider celibacy at 48.
M261
New member
Tyler23:
Do you have bloodwork from before you started HCG? Do you know if you are primary or secondary hypogonadism? If primary (testical issue), you will not get as much out of HCG. If your LH was really low then it will also take a while for you to feel the HCG. Most of the research proposes that the dose does not really matter after a certain level (i.e 10000 IU will statistically not give you more T then 5000 IU) due to down regulation. Unfortunately, it is a wait and see issue, I would not increase dose till you get bloodwork. Also, if you have any E2 issues (nipple sensitivity,etc.) they will get worse with HCG.
Do you have bloodwork from before you started HCG? Do you know if you are primary or secondary hypogonadism? If primary (testical issue), you will not get as much out of HCG. If your LH was really low then it will also take a while for you to feel the HCG. Most of the research proposes that the dose does not really matter after a certain level (i.e 10000 IU will statistically not give you more T then 5000 IU) due to down regulation. Unfortunately, it is a wait and see issue, I would not increase dose till you get bloodwork. Also, if you have any E2 issues (nipple sensitivity,etc.) they will get worse with HCG.
Gutterpump
Banned
How does this work? Cortisol/test relationship.
It makes sense because I definitely felt my hcg working more when I started isocort, and adding HC + test-e, things definitely got better as well. Curious how cortisol helps the function of test. I am only taking 10mg of HC everyday and have been thinking of increasing this dosage to 20mg, a full replacement dosage to see if it has added benefits. I know I burned myself out several times in the past and kept my body in a burned out state for many many years and kept pushing through it.
longrob
Member
colkurtz_spf
The horror
I was on TD test for about a year. The first six weeks I had no response from the HCG. My doc had to give me a booster shot. After the first 10 months I weened myself off of HCG. It took about six weeks to do that and I was responding with as little as 500IUs per week. During the following eight months I was completely off of everything. I tried to restart through diet and supplementation but nothing worked. I ended where I had started two years earlier - the same baseline numbers. During the past two years I found a sweet spot when dosing 1000 IUs twice per week with .5 mg of Arimidex. My numbers are usually: TT - 950 to 1000 FT - 220 to 250 and E2 23 - 24. Recently, I started to decrease my dose. I'm using 750 IUs twice per week, and will be down to 500 IUs within the next two weeks. I want to see if I can eliminate Arimidex. So far, I haven't noticed a decrease in my sense of well being.
LeanGuy
Active member
Yep, several people have commented how much muscle I've gained in the last couple months. As far as pounds, about 8lbs. Gains have been slower lately though, probably due to my T levels dropping.. not sure why. The only thing I changed is adding adex... but I thought that would take it higher not lower.
longrob
Member
colkurtz,
I took your advice and did 1000iu twice a week for 2 weeks, and dropped down to 500 iu twice a week for this last week. I do notice an increase in libido with the hcg, but no increase in testicle size. Granted, they have not atrophied much, but noticeable to my wife. Perhaps they will grow soon?
Thanks for your help.
-Rob
I took your advice and did 1000iu twice a week for 2 weeks, and dropped down to 500 iu twice a week for this last week. I do notice an increase in libido with the hcg, but no increase in testicle size. Granted, they have not atrophied much, but noticeable to my wife. Perhaps they will grow soon?
Thanks for your help.
-Rob
tyler23
New member
Sorry M2, just saw this post today. I haven't gotten a blood draw yet. That's a couple weeks out. Doc says I am secondary and my LH was mid-range. No E2 issues that I can notice; as I said before, I don't really feel any different in any respect.
For the record, I am not in dire straits with regard to mood, libido, etc. Just kind of "blah" and lack motivation. I got my T tested because I wasn't making progress in the gym despite being very strict with my diet. I suspect I have been low to low-normal T for a very long time.
Arbor
New member
Leanguy....I'm in the area too and am interested in your Dr.....been looking, can you PM me? Thanks.
colkurtz_spf
The horror
You may need to continue longer at the higher dose. Did you draw blood? If so, what was your E2?
aisstea
Member
Hey Guys, it's me again.
Well, it's been a long time since I wrote something here. Anyways, I took HCG like for 3 months and had been running very well with it. After stopping to take it I tried to keep my testosterone naturally high. I figured out, that my testicles are hard like a stone thru the whole day, when I'm doing a work out right after getting up in the morning. I mean with right after like 30 seconds after getting up... still in my sleeping underwear. I've got a crosstrainer next to my bed so I am able to switch instantaneous from my bed to the crosstrainer when my alarm is ringing. I do it for 20 minutes with a very high intensity. My puls is always between 150 and 170. I've been doing it for 4 days and my balls are huge and unbelieveble hard...like a stone. I see every vain that is going around...much harder then with HCG.
Well, just wanted to tell you my experience.
Well, it's been a long time since I wrote something here. Anyways, I took HCG like for 3 months and had been running very well with it. After stopping to take it I tried to keep my testosterone naturally high. I figured out, that my testicles are hard like a stone thru the whole day, when I'm doing a work out right after getting up in the morning. I mean with right after like 30 seconds after getting up... still in my sleeping underwear. I've got a crosstrainer next to my bed so I am able to switch instantaneous from my bed to the crosstrainer when my alarm is ringing. I do it for 20 minutes with a very high intensity. My puls is always between 150 and 170. I've been doing it for 4 days and my balls are huge and unbelieveble hard...like a stone. I see every vain that is going around...much harder then with HCG.
Well, just wanted to tell you my experience.
longrob
Member
colkurtz,
Thanks for the info. Being conservative, and not wanting to raise my E2 too much, I went down in dose after two weeks. I am on T Cyp, so I am trying to add hcg carefully on the day before my shot. I did not draw blood, just going by how I feel. Last test before hcg showed E2 at 19. Libido is def up, and so far, no nipple sensitivity or overly emotional events.
-Rob
Thanks for the info. Being conservative, and not wanting to raise my E2 too much, I went down in dose after two weeks. I am on T Cyp, so I am trying to add hcg carefully on the day before my shot. I did not draw blood, just going by how I feel. Last test before hcg showed E2 at 19. Libido is def up, and so far, no nipple sensitivity or overly emotional events.
-Rob
longrob
Member
I am not understanding. Are you saying the cross trainer is hardening up your testicles or are you taking supplements to keep your testosterone naturally high?
LeanGuy
Active member
Going to the doc today actually, to suggest adding a little T-gel to "top off" my levels and raise DHT a little. I guess that means I'm not monotherapy anymore
LeanGuy
Active member
I am done having kids, but... since I'm staying on hCG for most of my testosterone, I should remain fertile. The gel is mainly for more DHT... I think this is the reason some people don't feel 100% on hCG alone... it doesn't convert enough DHT. I'll see if my doc even agrees to give it.
colkurtz_spf
The horror
You would need a significant amount of HCG to increase your DHT level. Mine has been as high 110 on HCG alone. On 1000 IUs I maintain between 76 and 78.
I've done the combination HCG and T Gel. The results were not good for me. The first six weeks were great even though E2 went up considerably. I reduced my HCG dose, and after 4 months of therapy My TT went down to 632. Three months ago I switched back to the HCG alone. MY TT is over 1000 and FT over 300. Of course I'm doing a larger dose than you. I haven't measured DHT, but I feel it's on the high side.
I'm sure that when I get older I will need exogenous test. If I needed to go back on now I would consider dosing HCG only once per week.
thenxtgrt1
Member
Your total testosterone went down on T Gel and HCG combo?
w8tlifterty
New member
Quick one...
Read the entire thread and have a question. I dont post much here, but always lurk as there are some great members who provide good info. Ok, here is the story, 26 yo. Low test levels since puberty (low 300 baseline if i rember correctly)...ran very low amts of aas for 4 years 21-25 (never exceeded 500mg total, usaully test only unless a show was coming up). I ran a year long cycle at 250mg test e from 24-25 (I know, not smart but didnt abuse and had 2 shows and photo shoots that year). Been clean for roughly 8 months. I have not had blood test lately so cant provide that.... off all pct drugs for 3 months. Actually feel ok, not like I used too obviously but ok. Maintained quite a bit of muscle. Sense of well-eing pretty good... My question is could mono therapy be good for me, I know its hard to say w/o test but my main concern is i dont want to be shutdown further? I actually feel best on hcg! My diet is perfect year round, only fruits and veggies for carb sources and tons of olive oil and lean red meats. So, from the diet standpoint i give my body everything it needs to produce optimal levels, could hcg be of benefit? Not trying to hijack the tread but there are obviously some very knowledgeable guys posting... thx
Read the entire thread and have a question. I dont post much here, but always lurk as there are some great members who provide good info. Ok, here is the story, 26 yo. Low test levels since puberty (low 300 baseline if i rember correctly)...ran very low amts of aas for 4 years 21-25 (never exceeded 500mg total, usaully test only unless a show was coming up). I ran a year long cycle at 250mg test e from 24-25 (I know, not smart but didnt abuse and had 2 shows and photo shoots that year). Been clean for roughly 8 months. I have not had blood test lately so cant provide that.... off all pct drugs for 3 months. Actually feel ok, not like I used too obviously but ok. Maintained quite a bit of muscle. Sense of well-eing pretty good... My question is could mono therapy be good for me, I know its hard to say w/o test but my main concern is i dont want to be shutdown further? I actually feel best on hcg! My diet is perfect year round, only fruits and veggies for carb sources and tons of olive oil and lean red meats. So, from the diet standpoint i give my body everything it needs to produce optimal levels, could hcg be of benefit? Not trying to hijack the tread but there are obviously some very knowledgeable guys posting... thx
living2die
Member
Try low dose HCG mono at 308 - 330 IU EOD. That will put your testes at 100% functioning capacity. HCG is great because when dosed correctly, you don't need adjutant drugs, like you do on TRT.
colkurtz_spf
The horror
Not necessarily. Everyone is different. When it comes to hormones there is no cookie-cutter solution.
colkurtz_spf
The horror
colkurtz_spf
The horror
I don't know. I've been on it for a while. The funny thing is the lower doses seem more effective now. I suppose it depends on how you define long term. Hopefully this board around in ten years and I'll be able to give you my report. Who knows? By then I may be able to grow a new set of balls in a petri dish.
LeanGuy
Active member
I am doing ok... I have needed to increase my dose to keep levels at 700+. I still don't sleep well so its going to be difficult to feel good right now.
400iu E3D
0.25mg arimidex E3D
10mg test gel ED (for DHT)
tyler23
New member
Got part of my labs back after six weeks on HCG mono: total T is now 640 (range 241 - 827). Feeling a bit better but I think it's been pretty gradual so I haven't noticed a "wow" factor. The wife says my mood has been more even-keeled and the sex drive is up.
I would have liked to have seen a bit of fatloss, although I admit I haven't been super-strict with my diet. I am up a few pounds of muscle though. I don't have my E2 numbers yet, but I am hoping they increased enough to warrant some arimidex. They were mid-range before. I should have those early next week and I have a doc appt next Friday.
rocker2229
New member
LeanGuy,
can you pm me with your e-mail address? I have a few hcg questions I hope you'd be kind enough to answer!
Thanks,
David (rocker2229)
can you pm me with your e-mail address? I have a few hcg questions I hope you'd be kind enough to answer!
Thanks,
David (rocker2229)
LeanGuy
Active member
Hi David, please pm your questions. Thanks.
rocker2229
New member
Leanguy,
I don't have enough posts yet to be able to send pm's. My endo has never written for hcg before and I am trying to figure out what his script should say. What did your script for hcg say in terms of the amount of hcg? what was the amount of the vial (my depo-t was 100mg)? I think your initial positing said it was 70000 iu. Is that the size of the vials? How many refill vials did he write the script for?
I hope that makes sense,
David
I don't have enough posts yet to be able to send pm's. My endo has never written for hcg before and I am trying to figure out what his script should say. What did your script for hcg say in terms of the amount of hcg? what was the amount of the vial (my depo-t was 100mg)? I think your initial positing said it was 70000 iu. Is that the size of the vials? How many refill vials did he write the script for?
I hope that makes sense,
David
LeanGuy
Active member
My vials are 5000iu compunded hcg... three refills at a time. So I have to do blood work every 3 mos. Right now I'm injecting 350-400iu E3D.
Sort of off topic, but I was recently prescribed a little bromocriptine because my dopamine is low... HUGE bump in libido and erection strength... much more than HRT ever did... I think I'm tiring my wife out :thumbsup:
LeanGuy
Active member
1.25mg every night