Toremifene side effects

crazyfool405 said:
numbness is normal, take it with a swig of water in your mouth then drop in the torem.

split the doses and take the highest dose at night (E2 levels are higher at night)

Also remember Torem has AI properties.

your gym session sucked because
1) you let it get in your head your on PCT
2) your hormones are NOT back to normal yet
3) your nervous about it.
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Thanks for the info bro, actually my gym sessiopn sucked b/c, well, I actually was sick! Was laid up for a few days, but got back in today and had a great session. So, yeah, it wasn't the Torem or anything.
 
hardknock said:
In my 3 runs of Torem, i have NEVER felt any of these that you are describing, except the numb tongue feeling because the Torem tasted pasty, and anything pasty will numb my tongue.

Also, how long have you been "off", did you just start pct?
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Ignore - turns out I was actually getting sick. It just coincided with the start of PCT almost uncannily, I was thinking it was caused by PCT.
 
F*************CK!!!!!!!

I am seriously frustrated here. I am mid cycle with h-drol and it's my first cycle (log in my sig).

I was going to go SERM + AI and then after much research decided that SERM alone (torem) would do the trick for PCT.

Now reading this thread it sounds like an AI should be used and I'm back to being confused as all hell. To make matters worse I've had almost no gains from the cycle so all the weeks of researching and learning have mostly gone down the drain (plus the money on support and PCT supps).

Is the advice to use an AI+SERM geared more towards aromatizing gear? If you're using a non-aromatizing oral like hdrol or havoc do you need both a serm and an AI? I'm using torem for sure, I just wonder if skipping the AI is a mistake.

Considering the lack of gains I'm beginning to regret ever starting down this road :worried:
 
LAGear said:
F*************CK!!!!!!!

I am seriously frustrated here. I am mid cycle with h-drol and it's my first cycle (log in my sig).

I was going to go SERM + AI and then after much research decided that SERM alone (torem) would do the trick for PCT.

Now reading this thread it sounds like an AI should be used and I'm back to being confused as all hell. To make matters worse I've had almost no gains from the cycle so all the weeks of researching and learning have mostly gone down the drain (plus the money on support and PCT supps).

Is the advice to use an AI+SERM geared more towards aromatizing gear? If you're using a non-aromatizing oral like hdrol or havoc do you need both a serm and an AI? I'm using torem for sure, I just wonder if skipping the AI is a mistake.

Considering the lack of gains I'm beginning to regret ever starting down this road :worried:
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An AI is not a must. There are 2 dif schools of thought, but especially because your using hdrol, which is fairly mild you can easily get away without using an one.
 
CopyCat said:
An AI is not a must. There are 2 dif schools of thought, but especially because your using hdrol, which is fairly mild you can easily get away without using an one.
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crazyfool405 said:
Use torem and post cycle support by ai and all will be well. AI isn't a must I like it in my pcts tho
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I plan to use Torem + PCS + Diesel Test Hardcore + Lean Xtreme.

Can you briefly explain why it makes a difference that hdrol is mild? It's still a steroid and it's suppressive. And I've read about some people being heavily shut down by it.

So if there is some logical reason for using an AI then I will do it. I'm not at all about doing what I "can get away with." I'd rather do it right and not take chances.

I know there are two schools of thought on this. But I'd like it if someone would break it down for me. Why would you want to use an AI in some cases but not in others.

My goal is to learn and understand so that I can make my own decision instead of blindly follow. I thought I had it figured out. I thought you take a SERM to prevent E from binding while your T levels recover, and then taper off the SERM to prevent a rebound effect.

And I thought that if you were using a SERM that adding an AI only opened the door to the possibility of gyno rebound along with side effects like raised blood pressure and cholesterol. So case closed.

But now I'm coming across a lot more people who say that after the SERM your T levels may be too high which leads to excess E so you need an AI to keep E in check.

Last two posters make it sound like an AI is totally optional which leads me to wonder why you would use it if it can cause its own problems.

So what's the bottom line?
 
dude hdrol is the mildest pro hormone out there. i ran one cycle back before i started reading with no ptc and was perfectly fine. then again with novadex xt and kept my gains. run torem at a low dose with stoked wk 3&4.

also i would deff avoid a serm whenever possible as the sides are far worse then hdrol/epi/havoc/ or poss tren

better advice use primordials test recovery stack next time you run a cycle!
 
qwerty33 said:
dude hdrol is the mildest pro hormone out there. i ran one cycle back before i started reading with no ptc and was perfectly fine. then again with novadex xt and kept my gains. run torem at a low dose with stoked wk 3&4.

also i would deff avoid a serm whenever possible as the sides are far worse then hdrol/epi/havoc/ or poss tren

better advice use primordials test recovery stack next time you run a cycle!
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Dude. H-drol is a steroid. It's hormonal and it's suppressive. Not everyone responds the same way and some folks get pretty shut down.

Suggesting that people can get by with no PCT or with just Novadex is irresponsible.

Unless you had blood tests done you can't say that you were perfectly fine. Someone recently posted about a guy who felt fine after hdrol but blood tests were a mess.

As for avoiding a SERM whenever possible, not all SERMs are created equal. What are the horrific sides of using Torem? You know OTC AI products have side effects too.

Running TRS for h-drol isn't good advice either. Why would you need Toco-8 with h-drol which does not cause any shedding?
 
LAGear...
All steroids are NOT created equal.
HDrol being "mild" simply means that the side effects are barely noticable and recovery tends to be a little smoother.

You can actually take a steroid without completely "turning off" your natural production of testosterone, although it will NOT be operating at optimal performance.
You will see bloodwork of guys coming off cycles with single digit test levels and other guys only seeing a mild drop in test levels.

As you so accurately stated, you really don't know what's going on in your system unless you have bloodwork done.
If running bloodwork after cycle and after PCT, you won't really have a "benchmark" of where your levels need to be if you didn't have preCycle bloodwork done.

If your set on the Torem. I would run it everday for the first week then switch to EOD, while tapering down.
Don't make PCT complicating!
 
GotTest said:
LAGear...
All steroids are NOT created equal.
HDrol being "mild" simply means that the side effects are barely noticable and recovery tends to be a little smoother.

You can actually take a steroid without completely "turning off" your natural production of testosterone, although it will NOT be operating at optimal performance.
You will see bloodwork of guys coming off cycles with single digit test levels and other guys only seeing a mild drop in test levels.

As you so accurately stated, you really don't know what's going on in your system unless you have bloodwork done.
If running bloodwork after cycle and after PCT, you won't really have a "benchmark" of where your levels need to be if you didn't have preCycle bloodwork done.

If your set on the Torem. I would run it everday for the first week then switch to EOD, while tapering down.
Don't make PCT complicating!
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I agree with everything you said.

My point is that I don't see any disadvantage to using Torem. What's the downside to that SERM? I see more potential downsides to some of the OTC products people use. If you can get Torem (and anyone in the U.S. can) why would you spend just as much money on OTC products that are less tested? Just as h-drol is a mild steroid Torem is a mild SERM (with respect to sides) but very effective.

Telling people that they might not need PCT or can just use Nolvadex is a bad idea. H-drol is mild but it still has to be used with care.
 
GotTest said:
The downside to me was being over emotional, and slight loss of libido.
I was dosing TOO high and felt better once dosage was dropped.
Every drug has a side effect. Just be aware of them.
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Agree again.

IMO when you weigh the pros & cons of Torem against the pros & cons of OTC, Torem always wins. If you're using a mild compound like h-drol it doesn't change the equation, Torem still wins IMO.

Would still appreciate it if someone could explain why (or when) it's advantage to add an AI to PCT when you're already using a SERM.
 
LAGear said:
Agree again.

IMO when you weigh the pros & cons of Torem against the pros & cons of OTC, Torem always wins. If you're using a mild compound like h-drol it doesn't change the equation, Torem still wins IMO.

Would still appreciate it if someone could explain why (or when) it's advantage to add an AI to PCT when you're already using a SERM.
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Well as you stated yourself in the earlier post...when test increases it has more of a chance of aromatizing to est.
I understand your thinking that the SERM is going to prevent gyno, but you do have to end the serm at some point so you will want est under control. I actually dose AI a couple weeks after ending SERM use.
 
GotTest said:
Well as you stated yourself in the earlier post...when test increases it has more of a chance of aromatizing to est.
I understand your thinking that the SERM is going to prevent gyno, but you do have to end the serm at some point so you will want est under control. I actually dose AI a couple weeks after ending SERM use.
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But isn't using an AI even more likely to cause rebound gyno?

At lest the SERM isn't killing your E levels, isn't an AI more likely to cause a rebound from E rebound because it blocks E production?

If you taper off the SERM while taking a T booster why won't that be sufficient to restore both your T and E?
 
LAGear said:
But isn't using an AI even more likely to cause rebound gyno?

At lest the SERM isn't killing your E levels, isn't an AI more likely to cause a rebound from E rebound because it blocks E production?

If you taper off the SERM while taking a T booster why won't that be sufficient to restore both your T and E?
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All AI's are also NOT the same.
An OTC AI like Trione, Form, and 6-Bromo work GREAT.
ATD, Letro, and Adex are a little too harsh for my liking.
 
read what toco-8 does, alot more than hair control. you are way to dramatic about ptc. just run what your going to run and chill. i never suggested running no ptc. trs is the best ptc w/ no sides to report.
 
qwerty33 said:
read what toco-8 does, alot more than hair control. you are way to dramatic about ptc. just run what your going to run and chill. i never suggested running no ptc. trs is the best ptc w/ no sides to report.
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Don't chill, pct is a big deal. Your pct advice is not appropriate for a lot of designers. I'm sure there's a few designers that you could get away with this pct, but IMO it sounds like you're simply parroting product advertisements.

I agree that serms are often used improperly. At the same time, I've had bloodwork twice post pct and the only negative effect was on HDL. For that instance, I'd bet the Superdrol had more to do with lowered HDL than the Toremefine.
 
This thread confuses me. I was reading the PP guide to PCT and it says nolva and clomid are less desireable compared to torem. But here, many prefer clomid over all?

How do people actually feel on the Test Recovery Stack with a low dose SERM?
 
im running the trs with 25mg of clomi in a few weeks after a 1-t tren cycle. i believe this should be fine. if not more than enough
 
GotTest said:
All AI's are also NOT the same.
An OTC AI like Trione, Form, and 6-Bromo work GREAT.
ATD, Letro, and Adex are a little too harsh for my liking.
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Well, troine for one can make your hair fall out, especially if you are prone to MPB.

The question remains though, won't a SERM + test booster do the trick of getting you back?

Not all SERMs are created equal. Torem is very fast, effective and has little to no side effects. I don't see the advantage of using an AI (or any OTC-only protocol) over Torem. For as many times as I've asked I've not been given a specific advantage of OTC over Torem.

And I'm still trying to figure out why exactly you would ever need to use an AI if you are using a SERM and test booster. To the best of my understanding SERM + T booster should take care of everything. What's left for the AI to do once your T production is back to normal and the SERM has protected you from high E levels while T levels are bouncing back?

OTC is the only way to go for people living in some countries where you can't get a SERM. But if you're in the U.S. or anywhere that you can get your hands on Torem, not using it just doesn't make any sense to me.
 
For crazyfool, could you comment on this?

Over Use of Anti-Estrogens


Aromatase inhibitors (AI's) such as Arimidex, Aromasin, and Formestane are powerful tools for reducing estrogen conversion from heavily aromatizing drugs such as Testosterone or Dianabol. While these drugs are sometimes useful during cycle, these drugs are often counter-productive to use during PCT.

More specifically, it is a common misconception that estrogen will be elevated post cycle. Generally, estrogen is below a normal level after a cycle, especially if the cycle consisted primarily of non-aromatizing (non-estrogenic) AAS's or pro-hormones. Additionally, if one uses proper anti-estrogen's during a cycle with aromatizing AAS's then estrogen will not be elevated in this scenario either. Therefore, assuming proper AI's are used during cycle, I can only recommend an AI be used for PCT if hCG is also used.

Using AI's when they are not needed can lead to extremely low estrogen, which can cause the following side-effects -

* Lower Sex Drive / Erectile dysfunction
* Joint Pain
* Lower HDL levels
* Increased Risk of Heart Disease

Ultimately, this hurts your long and short term recovery and does not benefit you. Don't forget, normal levels of estrogen are necessary to support libido, muscle recovery, and testicular function.
 
LAGear said:
Well, troine for one can make your hair fall out, especially if you are prone to MPB.

The question remains though, won't a SERM + test booster do the trick of getting you back?

Not all SERMs are created equal. Torem is very fast, effective and has little to no side effects. I don't see the advantage of using an AI (or any OTC-only protocol) over Torem. For as many times as I've asked I've not been given a specific advantage of OTC over Torem.

And I'm still trying to figure out why exactly you would ever need to use an AI if you are using a SERM and test booster. To the best of my understanding SERM + T booster should take care of everything. What's left for the AI to do once your T production is back to normal and the SERM has protected you from high E levels while T levels are bouncing back?

OTC is the only way to go for people living in some countries where you can't get a SERM. But if you're in the U.S. or anywhere that you can get your hands on Torem, not using it just doesn't make any sense to me.
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My question is, how would you LOWER high estrogen levels WITHOUT an AI?
You are NOT going to LOWER estrogen levels with Test Boosters or SERMS.
 
GotTest said:
My question is, how would you LOWER high estrogen levels WITHOUT an AI?
You are NOT going to LOWER estrogen levels with Test Boosters or SERMS.
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Yes you will. As your T levels increase your E levels are going to come down. So if the test booster gets your T levels back up your E levels should be coming down and normalizing.

The other problem with an AI, especially a suicidal one like 6-oxo (trione) or ATD is that it overcompensates. Now you're going to go in and kill off all your E. First of all that's undesirable and second of all you're setting yourself up for the potential to have rebound gyno.

I am not an expert. I consider myself to be still learning but I've spent innumerable hours researching so I'm not talking out of my ass. If I'm wrong on my facts I'd hope someone will step in here and correct me. But let's keep it factual, don't tell me I'm wrong just because you've heard the opposite 100 times. If you're going to point out a flaw in my logic please explain.
 
As test rises natural aromatase increase. As test rises it won't lower estrogen. Some t bossters have natural ais in them

Correct ai doses imo won't be a problem
 
crazyfool405 said:
As test rises natural aromatase increase. As test rises it won't lower estrogen. Some t bossters have natural ais in them

Correct ai doses imo won't be a problem
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Can you respond to TexasTitan's post that estrogen isn't elevated to begin with post cycle, and especially not for non-aromatizing AAS.

And there's this as well which is pro SERM and implicitly makes the case that no AI is needed.



http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/66113-no-excuses-no.html

Excerpt from TheSinner's PCT thread. -

The first thing we need to understand is what is going on with our bodies when we're taking anabolic steroids:
Exogeneous anabolic hormones (or derivatives of anabolic hormones) are being brought into your system. This causes the body to take a number of responsive actions. The first and foremost (as you already know) is increased muscle mass. Unfortunately, other things are also going on that aren't so great

When an enzyme or hormone is brought exogeneously into the system, chemical balances shift around to attain a certain equilibrium. This is a chemical concept known as Le Chatelier's Principle of Chemical Equilibria. In a nutshell, your body will increase production of estrogen, cortisol, and other hormones in response to heightened testosterone levels, while simultaneously slowering (or completely stopping) natural production of testosterone. Biologist call this negative feedback.......biology sucks doesn't it?

Le Chatelier's Principle for the scientifically impaired:
Let's pretend A and B react to make C (can't get much simpler than that).

A + B --------> C

So we have a mixture containing A, B, and C. According to LeChatlier's principle, if we add more C to the mixture, the amounts of A and B will increase. If we remove some of the C from the mixture, A and B will decrease. And if we were to add A, B, or a combination of the two, C will increase. Still with me here? Good.


What's going on when we come off a cycle:
Ok, so while we're on the cycle, are natural test production is going down to compensate for the exogeneous test intake, and our production of other steroid hormones (i.e. Estrogen, Cortisol, etc.) is going up to compensate for the heightened test levels. When we come off a cycle, we cease intake of exogeneous testosterone. In other words, we have very low test levels, and very high cortisol and estrogen levels: it's the EXACT OPPOSITE of what we had while starting our cycle.

REMEMBER Le Chatelier's Principle because this is where it gets really important. When we have an excess of one hormone, the others will start shifting around, to attain a certain equilibrium. Ok, I'm gonna say it (and bold it) again because it's just that important. When we have an excess of one hormone, the others will start shifting around, to attain a certain equilibrium. It is a very common misconception that we want to eradicate estrogen . High estrogen levels play an integral part in Post Cycle therapy. That's right, you want to welcome high estrogen with open freaking arms, but there's a trick to it. And that trick is the almighty SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator).

SERM's: the foundation of post cycle therapy:
Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators are (and damn well should be) the foundation for any proper post-cycle therapy plan. A post cycle therapy plan without them, isn't a post cycle therapy plan: it's a bunch of crap you decided to take after doing a cycle. The purpose of a SERM is to block the negative effects estrogen, while your hormone levels go back to equilibrium.
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LAGear said:
Yes you will. As your T levels increase your E levels are going to come down. So if the test booster gets your T levels back up your E levels should be coming down and normalizing.
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As crazyfool and myself indicate...E will NOT go down if T goes up.
Ask anyone running HIGH dose Testosterone. ;)

The other problem with an AI, especially a suicidal one like 6-oxo (trione) or ATD is that it overcompensates. Now you're going to go in and kill off all your E. First of all that's undesirable and second of all you're setting yourself up for the potential to have rebound gyno.
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As we both agree on, ALL AI's are NOT created equal.
I would never compare ATD and 6-oxo...entirely different AI's.
The Baylor Study shows that >300mg/day of 6-oxo actually RAISES Est to some degree. ATD is more of an E "killer" than 6-oxo and doses are better suited at 25mg/day or EOD...for me.
There was also a study done on ATD which showed a significant RISE in T as well (can't remember the study specifically).

I am not an expert. I consider myself to be still learning but I've spent innumerable hours researching so I'm not talking out of my ass. If I'm wrong on my facts I'd hope someone will step in here and correct me. But let's keep it factual, don't tell me I'm wrong just because you've heard the opposite 100 times. If you're going to point out a flaw in my logic please explain.
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Actually if you do some research on AI's, their use alone has been found to actually RAISE Test as well (stated above). AI's are also commonly used to treat breast cancer as well.
I really wouldn't be so quick to "demonize" AI's.
 
LAGear said:
Can you respond to TexasTitan's post that estrogen isn't elevated to begin with post cycle, and especially not for non-aromatizing AAS.
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Which is why doses are tapered up or started at week number 2.

And there's this as well which is pro SERM and implicitly makes the case that no AI is needed.
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thesinner''s post may be proSERM but it is NOT anti-AI.
I also agree with his post...you do NOT want to ERADICATE Estrogen.
 
GotTest said:
As crazyfool and myself indicate...E will NOT go down if T goes up.
Ask anyone running HIGH dose Testosterone. ;)


As we both agree on, ALL AI's are NOT created equal.
I would never compare ATD and 6-oxo...entirely different AI's.
The Baylor Study shows that >300mg/day of 6-oxo actually RAISES Est to some degree. ATD is more of an E "killer" than 6-oxo and doses are better suited at 25mg/day or EOD...for me.
There was also a study done on ATD which showed a significant RISE in T as well (can't remember the study specifically).


Actually if you do some research on AI's, their use alone has been found to actually RAISE Test as well (stated above). AI's are also commonly used to treat breast cancer as well.
I really wouldn't be so quick to "demonize" AI's.
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Wasn't the Baylor study funded by Ergo? I read it and don't remember details but I think it showed that below 300mg/day there were actually no changes and that when used as a stand alone there were no hormonal changes or changes to body composition.
GotTest said:
Which is why doses are tapered up or started at week number 2.



thesinner''s post may be proSERM but it is NOT anti-AI.
I also agree with his post...you do NOT want to ERADICATE Estrogen.
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If you agree with his post then why do you think that E would be unnecessarily elevated after four weeks of using a test booster -- assuming that it works in getting your T production back up to normal. If T is back to normal then E should be too according to Le Chatelier's Principle.

And if E levels aren't high at the beginning of PCT why would they be high at week two or three? What's happening those first two weeks that raises E levels to an undesirable level?

If we can, let's differentiate between aromatizing and non-aromatizing compounds (which have been the focus of my research). If you're going to use a SERM and test booster with something like havoc or h-drol aren't you covered?

I start PCT in nine days. I have Formex and I'm not opposed to using it if I can be convinced I need it. The majority of people I hear from say that if I'm using a SERM then an AI is optional. My feeling is it's more superfluous than it is optional, but again, I'm learning.

I appreciate the intelligent discussion here.
 
Wow this thread blew up in like an hour my blackberry didn't get it all. Ok well when coming off cycle depending on what u use e2 will be in different ranges however in most cases with oral srteriods the ratio of t;e will be in favor of estrogen or just aboout the same from what I've seen in my bloodwork. So this to me shows that e2 should be slightly lowerd during pct until the ratio of t;e is in a much better favor of t levels. So the serm will then normalize t levels and there won't be much circulating e2 after pct is over possibly causing a rebound. But also u don't wanna use an ai in the beginning that will lower shbg because its protective against gyno and is a nessecary evil in pct to aid recovery. Its a very complex thing and the more u research sometimes the more confusing it gets. An just sometimes it will all make sense but there will always be some sort of discrepencys with peoples bloodwork anecdotal evidence and research.
 
LAGear said:
Wasn't the Baylor study funded by Ergo? I read it and don't remember details but I think it showed that below 300mg/day there were actually no changes and that when used as a stand alone there were no hormonal changes or changes to body composition.
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I don't think it was funded by Ergo, they just used 6-oxo from Ergo.
>300mg must be used, but no significant difference over 600mg/day.

If you agree with his post then why do you think that E would be unnecessarily elevated after four weeks of using a test booster -- assuming that it works in getting your T production back up to normal. If T is back to normal then E should be too according to Le Chatelier's Principle.
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I think thesinner was using Le Chat's principle as more of an example of how the body wants to reach homeostasis. To broadly say I've raised my T levels thus E will not rise is just simply not true.
For example if my T levels are X than my E levels will be Y. The body just doesn't work that way.
I have seen several bloodwork examples from guys on this board and others where their T levels were normal and E levels HIGH.

And if E levels aren't high at the beginning of PCT why would they be high at week two or three? What's happening those first two weeks that raises E levels to an undesirable level?
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Homeostasis ;)

If we can, let's differentiate between aromatizing and non-aromatizing compounds (which have been the focus of my research). If you're going to use a SERM and test booster with something like havoc or h-drol aren't you covered?
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Maybe...everone is different.
Some use SERM only and still get hit with gyno months down the road.
SERM is NOT always THE answer.

I start PCT in nine days. I have Formex and I'm not opposed to using it if I can be convinced I need it. The majority of people I hear from say that if I'm using a SERM then an AI is optional. My feeling is it's more superfluous than it is optional, but again, I'm learning.

I appreciate the intelligent discussion here.
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Did you have bloodwork done PREcycle?
Are you having bloodwork done POSTcycle and POSTPCT?

With the concerns you have regarding your PCT, I would lean more on bloodwork than your feelings.
 
TexasTitan said:
So humor me, how would you dose TD form?
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I LOVE this stuff... but not crazy about dosing during PCT.
In other words, I just trust mg absorption in my stomach as opposed to on my skin.

Last PCT I tapered up then back down.
I think I tapered up to about 250mg/day then back down.
 
crazyfool405 said:
Wow this thread blew up in like an hour my blackberry didn't get it all. Ok well when coming off cycle depending on what u use e2 will be in different ranges however in most cases with oral srteriods the ratio of t;e will be in favor of estrogen or just aboout the same from what I've seen in my bloodwork. So this to me shows that e2 should be slightly lowerd during pct until the ratio of t;e is in a much better favor of t levels. So the serm will then normalize t levels and there won't be much circulating e2 after pct is over possibly causing a rebound. But also u don't wanna use an ai in the beginning that will lower shbg because its protective against gyno and is a nessecary evil in pct to aid recovery. Its a very complex thing and the more u research sometimes the more confusing it gets. An just sometimes it will all make sense but there will always be some sort of discrepencys with peoples bloodwork anecdotal evidence and research.
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That's for sure, the more you research the more you realize there's no "right" answer.

You say that in your experience E is slightly elevated at the start of PCT. But then E is too low after using a SERM. Why would that be the case since a SERM doesn't attack E? Isn't the point of a SERM to let your T levels recover without affecting your E levels, even though it's blocking E from receptors?

GotTest said:
And if E levels aren't high at the beginning of PCT why would they be high at week two or three? What's happening those first two weeks that raises E levels to an undesirable level?
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Homeostasis ;)
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Are you saying that during those first 2-3 weeks of PCT E is going to go from being low to being too high?

Logically if E is low and your body is seeking homeostasis then it's not going to overshoot by that much. But that's just logic. Maybe it doesn't work that way. So you're saying that your body will overshoot and E will go too high?

GotTest said:
Did you have bloodwork done PREcycle?
Are you having bloodwork done POSTcycle and POSTPCT?

With the concerns you have regarding your PCT, I would lean more on bloodwork than your feelings.
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I didn't have any bloodwork done.

It's not just that I'm concerned about PCT (I am -- it's my first time) but I really want to understand this stuff so that I can make good decisions for myself and so I can better help others who have questions.

I've flip-flopped on this AI question so many times already. I have Formex, maybe I'll add it into my PCT in week three. I hate being this indecisive.
 
I talked with a guy who ran Formex and he said it was pretty mild compared to others. You won't "kill" your E levels with it.

Also another milder alternative to control E levels would be using I3C.
This is an absolute STAPLE for every PCT I run.
600mg/day first week then tapered down each week.
 
GotTest said:
I talked with a guy who ran Formex and he said it was pretty mild compared to others. You won't "kill" your E levels with it.

Also another milder alternative to control E levels would be using I3C.
This is an absolute STAPLE for every PCT I run.
600mg/day first week then tapered down each week.
Click to expand...

So you're using I3C throughout your PCT with both the SERM and AI?

Is there any benefit to using I3C as a standalone outside of PCT?

If you were going to add Formex into PCT with a SERM, wouldn't you add it in week three? One of the IBE reps recommends starting Formex high in week one with a SERM and tapering them both down at the same time which seems like a bad idea to me - Invalid Link Removed. Wouldn't that increase the risk of estro rebound?
 
LAGear said:
So you're using I3C throughout your PCT with both the SERM and AI?

Is there any benefit to using I3C as a standalone outside of PCT?

If you were going to add Formex into PCT with a SERM, wouldn't you add it in week three? One of the IBE reps recommends starting Formex high in week one with a SERM and tapering them both down at the same time which seems like a bad idea to me - Invalid Link Removed. Wouldn't that increase the risk of estro rebound?
Click to expand...

Man you're going to find as many dosing schemes on these boards as you will screen names :)

You also have to remember your body does not use the same calender as we do.
In other words... what if E levels start changing on day 8 instead of day 12.
That is why I USUALLY run low dose AI on week 1. Others slam an AI hard on week 3 and taper down...hey, it works for them.

Libido is the biggest indicator for me if my AI dosing is too high...it comes with experience. ;)

I3C is considered more of an estrogen "channeler" and eliminates "bad estrogen" without negatively affecting "good estrogen".
This was introduced to me by Dr Houser,(aka dinoiii) over at LB.
 
GotTest said:
Man you're going to find as many dosing schemes on these boards as you will screen names :)

You also have to remember your body does not use the same calender as we do.
In other words... what if E levels start changing on day 8 instead of day 12.
That is why I USUALLY run low dose AI on week 1. Others slam an AI hard on week 3 and taper down...hey, it works for them.

Libido is the biggest indicator for me if my AI dosing is too high...it comes with experience. ;)

I3C is considered more of an estrogen "channeler" and eliminates "bad estrogen" without negatively affecting "good estrogen".
This was introduced to me by Dr Houser,(aka dinoiii) over at LB.
Click to expand...
Well, when using SERM + AI there are generally two schools of thought. Start the AI high in week three and taper it down, or start the AI low in week one then taper it up and back down again.

I don't think I've ever heard someone recommend starting SERM and AI high at the same time and then tapering both of them down at the same time.

Does this make any sense at all? To me it sounds like something you would do if you were trying to give yourself gyno.

One problem with Formex is a little bit harder to taper up and down because the caps come in 25mg doses so there's not much room for tapering since 50mg is generally considered the max so you can only go 25-50-25 which isn't much of a taper. With something like 6-oxo the caps come in 100mg doses so you can more gradually ramp from 100 - 200 - 300 and back down.
 
LAGear said:
That's for sure, the more you research the more you realize there's no "right" answer.

1) You say that in your experience E is slightly elevated at the start of PCT.

2) But then E is too low after using a SERM. Why would that be the case since a SERM doesn't attack E? Isn't the point of a SERM to let your T levels recover without affecting your E levels, even though it's blocking E from receptors?


3) Are you saying that during those first 2-3 weeks of PCT E is going to go from being low to being too high?

Logically if E is low and your body is seeking homeostasis then it's not going to overshoot by that much. But that's just logic. Maybe it doesn't work that way. So you're saying that your body will overshoot and E will go too high?



I didn't have any bloodwork done.

It's not just that I'm concerned about PCT (I am -- it's my first time) but I really want to understand this stuff so that I can make good decisions for myself and so I can better help others who have questions.

I've flip-flopped on this AI question so many times already. I have Formex, maybe I'll add it into my PCT in week three. I hate being this indecisive.
Click to expand...

LAGear, I'll try and answer some of these, although I am not an expert.

1) In fact, from everything I have read estrogen is generally low as you end a cycle. This is because in men, most E is produced from aromatisation of T. If there is a lack of natural androgen production (from being shut down or supressed), E levels should follow (so long as you are using a non-aromatising compound).

2) You are right. SERMs do not lower E levels, they compete with them at certain receptor sites (such as the breast). They can also be agonists in other tissues (such as bone). Hence Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator.

3) This is certainly a possible scenario. If you approach this from the understanding that E is already low post-cycle, as you ramp up natural test production, E levels are going to rise (due to aromatisation of your restored natural test). The SERM protects you from gyno here as E levels may, in fact, be at levels that while not necessarily considered clinically significant, may be higher than your body's natural HPTA loop would allow. Think of it like this: if a natural trainee took various test boosters and went from 500 ng/dl of test to, say, 900 ng/dl (both levels still considered "normal"), wouldn't you assume that this boost would be performance-enhancing? Likewise estrogens. Perhaps E levels may not be "high" per blood work, but higher than normal for the individual may be enough to induce mammary growth., hence the need to control E outside of the SERM usage.

To take this a step further, logically speaking, a cycle is supressive to natural androgens, not estrogens. E declines simply because of the mechanism in which it is formed (in men). So as the body adjusts to natural HPTA feedback and achieves homeostasis, I think it is fair to consider the possibility that E may be higher than normal as you end the SERM. It is not so much a matter of overshooting anything; it's more a matter of, you are using drugs to restore normal function, and E/T levels relative to pre-cycle values may be skewed one way or the other. This isn't an exact science. So tapering off the SERM as you perhaps sit with a higher-than-normal E value may in some cases, I believe, be enough to induce gyno.

Now, if you consider the above scenario, an AI starting in week 3 of the SERM, tapered up then back down for 3-4 weeks (so 1-2 weeks after discontinuation of the SERM), should have a double benefit:

A) E will be lowered then gradually allowed to creep back up to "normal" levels. At this point you are now 6-8 weeks into PCT, so (hopefully) HPTA function is, if not completely restored, very close to that point.

B) Introducing an AI will, of course, also boost test. As restoring natrural test is Goal #1 of PCT, this benefit is not insignificant by any means.

My opinion is an AI may not be necessary in all cases, maybe not even in most, depending on your definition of necessary. But when using certain compounds I think the benefits are clear and it represents a double layer of protection. Better safe than sorry.

Again, though, I'm not an expert. Just your local bro-scientist. :wave2:
 
Dragon13 said:
Now, if you consider the above scenario, an AI starting in week 3 of the SERM, tapered up then back down for 3-4 weeks (so 1-2 weeks after discontinuation of the SERM), should have a double benefit:
Click to expand...

Excellent post bro!

I was on board until you said you would start an AI in week three of PCT and start it low, taper up, then taper down. Most people recommend starting the AI low in week one of PCT then tapering up and back down, or they recommend starting the AI in week three of PCT at a high dose and tapering down.

This is the first time I recall someone recommending you should start an AI in week three of PCT and taper the AI up then back down again. What is the rationale for dosing this way?
 
LAGear said:
And if E levels aren't high at the beginning of PCT why would they be high at week two or three? What's happening those first two weeks that raises E levels to an undesirable level?

If we can, let's differentiate between aromatizing and non-aromatizing compounds (which have been the focus of my research). If you're going to use a SERM and test booster with something like havoc or h-drol aren't you covered?
Click to expand...

Most of us who are opinionated on this topic have ran a few cycles. We preach what works for us and tend not to like what left us short of recovery or with side effects... so that's sort of a disclaimer that none of us have a "correct" answer that applies to everyone.

Legal designers do NOT aromatize. The majority of bloodwork that I've seen at the end of cycles shows lowered (and sometimes scary low) test AND estrogen levels. As natural test levels recover, so does the potential for natural test to aromatize.

The serm selectively prevents estrogen from binding to breast tissue even if estrogen levels are rising. Estrogen receptors in breast tissue become open game as it's tapered. So that's where some add in an AI and others (like GT) will start to ramp their AI. It's a safety net for gyno prevention.

Why you're so convinced that the AI is what causes the rebound is beyond my understanding. The only time I ever see post pct rebound occur (and with me personally) is/was with SD.
 
celc5 said:
Most of us who are opinionated on this topic have ran a few cycles. We preach what works for us and tend not to like what left us short of recovery or with side effects... so that's sort of a disclaimer that none of us have a "correct" answer that applies to everyone.

Legal designers do NOT aromatize. The majority of bloodwork that I've seen at the end of cycles shows lowered (and sometimes scary low) test AND estrogen levels. As natural test levels recover, so does the potential for natural test to aromatize.

The serm selectively prevents estrogen from binding to breast tissue even if estrogen levels are rising. Estrogen receptors in breast tissue become open game as it's tapered. So that's where some add in an AI and others (like GT) will start to ramp their AI. It's a safety net for gyno prevention.

Why you're so convinced that the AI is what causes the rebound is beyond my understanding. The only time I ever see post pct rebound occur (and with me personally) is/was with SD.
Click to expand...

I understand that T and E will both be low at the start of PCT and will recover together, but if E is low at the beginning of PCT I don't see why it would be abnormally high be the end of your SERM run.

What I'm missing is why T is rising back to a desirable level while E is overshooting and going too high, thereby necessitating the AI?

If E isn't abnormally high at the end of SERM then won't using an AI take E back down too low? Now when you stop the AI which might be overly repressing E you're opening the door to the possibility of estro rebound. And now you don't have the SERM around to protect you from gyno.

That's my understanding of it. I am learning so I'm not saying I'm right by any means. but if I'm wrong I'm trying to understand where the flaw in my logic is.

I appreciate the time you guys are taking to help me learn.
 
I have a few quick questions about taking Torem. When taking 120/90/60 should it be taken all at once or split into multiple doses? If split, how many doses do you split it into?

If one dose/day is recommended when should that dose be taken?

With food or without?

Thanks!
 
Dragon13 said:
LAGear, I'll try and answer some of these, although I am not an expert.

1) In fact, from everything I have read estrogen is generally low as you end a cycle. This is because in men, most E is produced from aromatisation of T. If there is a lack of natural androgen production (from being shut down or supressed), E levels should follow (so long as you are using a non-aromatising compound).
you have to realize some compounds shut you down more then others and its the ratio of T:E that will cause the problems and need to be fixed asap
2) You are right. SERMs do not lower E levels, they compete with them at certain receptor sites (such as the breast). They can also be agonists in other tissues (such as bone). Hence Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator.
correct
3) This is certainly a possible scenario. If you approach this from the understanding that E is already low post-cycle, as you ramp up natural test production, E levels are going to rise (due to aromatisation of your restored natural test). The SERM protects you from gyno here as E levels may, in fact, be at levels that while not necessarily considered clinically significant, may be higher than your body's natural HPTA loop would allow. Think of it like this: if a natural trainee took various test boosters and went from 500 ng/dl of test to, say, 900 ng/dl (both levels still considered "normal"), wouldn't you assume that this boost would be performance-enhancing? Likewise estrogens. Perhaps E levels may not be "high" per blood work, but higher than normal for the individual may be enough to induce mammary growth., hence the need to control E outside of the SERM usage.its T:E ratio is sometimes shifted which is why bloodwork is and should be a must. estrogen causes negative feedback hindering recovery post cycle due to the ratio.

To take this a step further, logically speaking, a cycle is supressive to natural androgens, not estrogens. E declines simply because of the mechanism in which it is formed (in men). So as the body adjusts to natural HPTA feedback and achieves homeostasis, I think it is fair to consider the possibility that E may be higher than normal as you end the SERM. It is not so much a matter of overshooting anything; it's more a matter of, you are using drugs to restore normal function, and E/T levels relative to pre-cycle values may be skewed one way or the other. This isn't an exact science. So tapering off the SERM as you perhaps sit with a higher-than-normal E value may in some cases, I believe, be enough to induce gyno.5a reduced steriods have AI activity binding to receptors causing E2 to be lowered yet Estrone sulfate being freed from SHBG. tapering off a serm may not be nessecary its half life is around 5 days

Now, if you consider the above scenario, an AI starting in week 3 of the SERM, tapered up then back down for 3-4 weeks (so 1-2 weeks after discontinuation of the SERM), should have a double benefit:

A) E will be lowered then gradually allowed to creep back up to "normal" levels. At this point you are now 6-8 weeks into PCT, so (hopefully) HPTA function is, if not completely restored, very close to that point.

B) Introducing an AI will, of course, also boost test. As restoring natrural test is Goal #1 of PCT, this benefit is not insignificant by any means.it will boost FHS which has a different function then LH

My opinion is an AI may not be necessary in all cases, maybe not even in most, depending on your definition of necessary. But when using certain compounds I think the benefits are clear and it represents a double layer of protection. Better safe than sorry. EOD dosing seems to work well for me and most other people

Again, though, I'm not an expert. Just your local bro-scientist. :wave2:
Click to expand...


yea im a broscientist as well my views are soo different from a lot of peopls though
 
LAGear said:
I have a few quick questions about taking Torem. When taking 120/90/60 should it be taken all at once or split into multiple doses? If split, how many doses do you split it into?

If one dose/day is recommended when should that dose be taken?

With food or without?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

i personally dont use torem, but i would split dosing easier on taste buds lol. plus high doses of anything i never take at once except my injectables :) i do that all at once for long esters
 
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