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Smith Macine Rules!

  • Thread starter Thread starter Mars1107
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lol ok like i mentioned above i only use smith machine for reverse grip bench press, and it was acutally a power lifter who suggested that in some article. ive also read a couple powerlifting articles that tell you to do assistance work on machines and only core movements with free weights.. i do disagree with that but machines do have there place. Upright rows smith machine works fine.. im not telling anyone to use the smith machine to bench but smith machine is usefull for a couplke things.

A reverse grip bench press is a bench press variation. I don't know a single powerlifter who would recommend that BP variations be done on a machine. Machines do have thier place, i use a few for back, mainly CSR's and lat pulldowns. Reverse Hypers, back attack, and maybe a few others. Do yourself a favor, try and do as much of your workout as you can without machines. I would not do Upright rows on a smith either.
 
I'm agains upright rows, personally; however, the same reputation concerning injuries is plastered around about behind the neck pulldowns/pullups and I love them. :)
 
So what if it goes up? If you ditch the smith machine and go work on getting better at the real deal you will get much stronger and bigger - faster!

There is no excuse for using the smith machine. Don't just ask gymrat, go ask some of the best coaches out there and some of the strongest benchers in the world if they built their bench with a smith machine. They will laugh at you if they even remember what a smith machine is.

Maybe some people see the pro bodybuilders using the smith machine and think its ok. Well when you are that big, strong and on that much juice, then anything is ok to build muscle.

If you don't have a spotter, there is many ways to organize your free weight training so that you can gain more strength and size than you would with the smith machine.

And there are trainers that will advocate the use of them for certain movements( DC for one) in order to pack on strength/size. Seems to be working for him, and his trainees. None of them seem to have any trouble gaining strength/size.
 
Okay gymrat, I'm going free weights all the way. Am I allowed to touch the cables?

I absolutely love cable crossovers, but only after a fresh set of benches and/or incline benches.

And there are trainers that will advocate the use of them for certain movements( DC for one) in order to pack on strength/size. Seems to be working for him, and his trainees. None of them seem to have any trouble gaining strength/size.

We have concluded the reasons behind our theory of smith machines being less efficient in comparison to conventional free weights, if you would like to argue the points we have already made continuosly feel free to do so. I'm getting tired of repeating myself. Having a machine stabilize the weight for you once again doesn't add to functional strength. Strengthening the CHEST alone won't increase your bench press unless the stabilizers, synergists and antagonists are worked effectively as well in which they are not with a smith machine.
 
How about chin ups as a compound exercise for biceps... Good idea?

Yes. As stated earlier, the biceps are utilized more optimally when performed at a supinated position. The chin-up would require core stability (in which is excellent) and would require utilization from the lats and posterior deltoids.

I usually end my bicep regime with 1-3 sets of chins until failure; however, I start the session with 3 sets of 10 alternating dumebll curls, 2 sets of 10 barbell curls, then followed by 1 set until failure with chins.

Chins are a good placement regardless.
 
gym rat trainers for NFL teams use machines.. i can send u a video link of my team the browns using the chest press at team workouts... dumb i know.. My high school use to pussh heavy ass leg extentions in football.. i mean doesnt it get u pumped when u wake up in the morning to go do leg extentions leg curls calf raises and leg press NOOOT...

alot of personal trainers and strength coaches use machines and traditional 3 x 10 4 x 8 workouts.
 
gym rat trainers for NFL teams use machines.. i can send u a video link of my team the browns using the chest press at team workouts... dumb i know.. My high school use to pussh heavy ass leg extentions in football.. i mean doesnt it get u pumped when u wake up in the morning to go do leg extentions leg curls calf raises and leg press NOOOT...

alot of personal trainers and strength coaches use machines and traditional 3 x 10 4 x 8 workouts.

Brownstorm, once again I'm not saying machines don't have their place.

Machines with isolation movements like leg extensions and leg curls that work a single joint at a time the same principles would not apply to.

Compound movements in machines is the message I'm trying to portary to avoid due to the unnatural movement pattern as well as the supporting muscle groups not being overloaded and therefore in a more natural plane of motion couldn't take the weight on a regular free weight exercise.

As stated, if you would like to perform machine movements, I actually PREFER machine isolations but free weight compounds should come first.
 
Supinated is palms up, pronated is palms down... What is it called when your palms face eachother? I've been trying to figure that out for years... Even my chiropractor doesn't know.
 
alot of personal trainers and strength coaches use machines and traditional 3 x 10 4 x 8 workouts.


2 of my favorite pesonal trainer comments

1. In orde to push maximal weight you have to lift really slow to build strength.

2. WHen watching do parallel box squats, i was asked why i was cheating.


these were certificate bearing personal trainers. Lifting knowlege comes from about 80% under the bar.
 
smith machine sucks for compound movements the whole point is to work as many muscles in the body as possible and doing squats in a smith or any other compound movement totaly negates all stablizing muscles. Hell put your max weight on a smith for bench and then try doing the same on free weight BB bench even with a spotter I bet you cant do as much because your really not as strong as you thought you were.



If you cant do it using free weights then you have no business doing it IMO unless youre injured
 
smith machine sucks for compound movements the whole point is to work as many muscles in the body as possible and doing squats in a smith or any other compound movement totaly negates all stablizing muscles. Hell put your max weight on a smith for bench and then try doing the same on free weight BB bench even with a spotter I bet you cant do as much because your really not as strong as you thought you were.



If you cant do it using free weights then you have no business doing it IMO unless youre injured

I couldn't agree more. This is exactly what I've been expressing.
 
I couldn't agree more. This is exactly what I've been expressing.

I'm right with ya bro and they can cause injury especially from doing squats in them mainly for beginners because they usually dont have very strong stabilizers in the knee and there for are more susceptible to injury as when there bigger muscles get stronger they go up in weight and the other muscles cant handle the load.
 
I'm right with ya bro and they can cause injury especially from doing squats in them mainly for beginners because they usually dont have very strong stabilizers in the knee and there for are more susceptible to injury as when there bigger muscles get stronger they go up in weight and the other muscles cant handle the load.

So don't do leg press?
 
So don't do leg press?

Delita I don't think you're contemplating the messages we're actually attemping to portary. We're not expressing to NOT do machines, we're simply suggesting that should come AFTER free weights.

Leg presses are fine, just do them after squats.
 
Right, if you would substitue squats for leg presses, your core will suffer significantly.

I don't leg press personally, but if you do wish to do them, just make sure they're after squats.
 
I may sound confusing, but really I'm trying to make some changes to my routine. I'm asking what is better so that I may get the most out of my workouts... I'd rather do 10 sets of BB Squats than 4 sets of bb squats followed by 4 sets of leg presses.
 
I'd rather do 10 sets of BB Squats than 4 sets of bb squats followed by 4 sets of leg presses.

It's difficult to have both volume and intensity in a legitiment program.

If you can do 10 sets of squats, the chances are you're not using enough intensity (weight) to really progress.

If you would just prefer to work with loads of volume and don't care about the intensity (weight) then it wouldn't be a bad idea to do 10 sets of squats with the moderate weight of your choosing.

If you would like to do leg presses, just leg press after squatting. If you would rather do squats, just do squats. Switch up from back squat, front squat to hack squats every session. Muscle confusion/progressive overload is a phenominal way to both hypertrophy/overload muscle tissue.
 
Intensity builds strength for me, but volume helps more with size. This is a personal individualized response to resistance training that I have noted.
 
Intensity builds strength for me, but volume helps more with size. This is a personal individualized response to resistance training that I have noted.

Hypertrophy should come more from eating.

But if you respond better to volume than intensity, just keep with the higher volume on conventional squatting.
 
this is a joke right...........?
 
You're not listening at all, I've always said when someone gets on the offensive when trying to argue it's because they have no logic to argue.

I said the REASONS to perform a bench press over a fly is that the bench press is a more NATURAL movement by the body and INVOLVE and OVERLOAD more muscle groups at the same time for an overall more effective workout. No one bashed the free weight fly, as they have their place.

Yes my point IS to promote free weights. Yes, I preach against an unnatural form. You generate force in natural planes of motion to allow your body to work more efficiently in those planes of motion, so performing an unnatural plane of motion and canceling utilization of multiple muscle groups at once just doesn't make sense to me at all.

bench press never helped my chest...fly's did wonders for my chest....
 
Exercise is not so linear as to say: "In all instances, X is preferable to Y for the reasons r, p and q." A more responsible statement is: "In certain instances X may be preferable to Y for the reasons r, p, and q." I cringe whenever I see so-called 'always' statements - that is, free weights should always be used prior to Smith, for example.

Each person has individual goals, and thus should address these goals in a manner that both suits them and is conducive to their notion of progress. To suggest that a certain routine and/or general approach to lifting is universally better than all others in all instances is naive, IMHO. The only constant, ironically, that I employ is variance: constantly varying exercises, cadences, levels of intensity [measured as per % of n Rep Max], frequency, and so on. At times, Smith Close Grip Bench Press is my lead-off exercise; others, it is free weight BB CGBP. I have found this to be effective through constant variation and progress.
 
Exercise is not so linear as to say: "In all instances, X is preferable to Y for the reasons r, p and q." A more responsible statement is: "In certain instances X may be preferable to Y for the reasons r, p, and q." I cringe whenever I see so-called 'always' statements - that is, free weights should always be used prior to Smith, for example.

No one is suggesting any program is better than universally all other programs. Because EVERYTHING CAN and WILL work to a certain extent. But you cannot say that free weights are not superior to smith machines. For the last time, the unnatural movement pattern disallows the stabilizers, synergists and supporting muscle groups to be overloaded and therefore would not add to functional strength seeing it is dismissed from the three dimentional plane the body is used to. If the triceps and anterior deltoids aren't assisting in the range of motion the chest will become developed but then once you go back to free weights you'll notice the stabilizers aren't capable of of stabilizing the external load. A strong chest with underdeveloped triceps and anterior deltoids won't allow you to lift the same potential as using free weights alone. Having your body stabilize the weight itself provides a more natural/primary range of motion that therefore utilizes the necessary muscle groups that would work naturally in the particular plane of motion.

Each person has individual goals, and thus should address these goals in a manner that both suits them and is conducive to their notion of progress. To suggest that a certain routine and/or general approach to lifting is universally better than all others in all instances is naive, IMHO. The only constant, ironically, that I employ is variance: constantly varying exercises, cadences, levels of intensity [measured as per % of n Rep Max], frequency, and so on. At times, Smith Close Grip Bench Press is my lead-off exercise; others, it is free weight BB CGBP. I have found this to be effective through constant variation and progress.

I tend to disagree. There's only one goal in bodybuilding/powerlifting, it's to progress at SOMETHING. Whether that be strength, size or endurance it's usually ALWAYS one or the other. Building muscle and/or burning fat would be categorized under size, seeing it deals with the posture and muscle density. I am suggesting that the linear progress should be taken advantage of. Changing things up for muscle confusion can and will work. But changing so that your body doesn't adapt doesn't make sense, adaption should be the goal, not something you should avoid. Changing isolation movements is fine, but the compounds should always come first.
 
bench press never helped my chest...fly's did wonders for my chest....

If the bread and butter of chest building exercises didn't help your chest it could have been due to a variety of factors. Building muscle is mainly in the nutrition with it being a primary suspect. Otherwise, you probably weren't lifting heavy enough.
 
I don't see why we need functional strength pushing over 200 pounds.... A bodybuilder only needs size and definition, not functional strength. Smith machines are not worthless, and hold a good part in weight training. We are not superheroes needing to save the world everyday.
 
I don't see why we need functional strength pushing over 200 pounds.... A bodybuilder only needs size and definition, not functional strength. Smith machines are not worthless, and hold a good part in weight training. We are not superheroes needing to save the world everyday.

Before size is possible, a foundation of strength is necessary. If you get big without the reaping the benefits of functional strength, then it's basically getting big for nothing. You can get big to look good in your thong on stage (no offense to any bodybuilders) or you can get big to be strong and have phenominal strength which sounds more appropriate.

Bodybuilders are looked at for being tremendously huge; however, they are underrated for their phenominal strength. If you've ever watched the fitshow, Milos (my all time favorite bodybuilder) even recommends the flat barbell conventional free weight bench press before the machines. He considered flat benches the bread and butter of chest development.

No one ONCE AGAIN said machines were worthless. I've said four times already they have their place. I just said free weights should come first seeing they hold a more superior standpoint to overloading more muscles in a natural movement pattern.
 
now that i understand what gym rat is saying i agree.. i follow a westside routine but i still use machines ex

ME- Flat barbell Bench with chains to a max
3 x 5 Dumbell Press
Skull Crushers 3 x 8-10
Pec Dec or cable Flyes 4 x 15
Cable Curls
Tri Pulldowns

thats not my hole workout but thats how they vary i try to hit really heavy Tris and Chest with free weights then i use real light weight cables and just get blood flowing and the squeeze.
 
I don't see why we need functional strength pushing over 200 pounds.... A bodybuilder only needs size and definition, not functional strength. Smith machines are not worthless, and hold a good part in weight training. We are not superheroes needing to save the world everyday.
Unless your training for the sole purpose of looking good for the ladies or to become an Abercrombie model then to get big you are wasting your time unless you start out with heavy compound movements in my opinion. Trying to get big using a smith machine over free weights is going to take you longer and set you up for possible structural issues/imbalances and injuries as mentioned many times in this thread.
 
Unless your training for the sole purpose of looking good for the ladies or to become an Abercrombie model then to get big you are wasting your time unless you start out with heavy compound movements in my opinion. Trying to get big using a smith machine over free weights is going to take you longer and set you up for possible structural issues/imbalances and injuries as mentioned many times in this thread.

You're exactly right.

now that i understand what gym rat is saying i agree.. i follow a westside routine but i still use machines ex

ME- Flat barbell Bench with chains to a max
3 x 5 Dumbell Press
Skull Crushers 3 x 8-10
Pec Dec or cable Flyes 4 x 15
Cable Curls
Tri Pulldowns

thats not my hole workout but thats how they vary i try to hit really heavy Tris and Chest with free weights then i use real light weight cables and just get blood flowing and the squeeze.

If you feel you have energy left and would like to practice squeezing the muscle with machines/isolations, that's perfectly fine. The moral that myself and a few others have been proposing is that free weights should come first. I'm glad you understand that now.
 
Before size is possible, a foundation of strength is necessary. If you get big without the reaping the benefits of functional strength, then it's basically getting big for nothing. You can get big to look good in your thong on stage (no offense to any bodybuilders) or you can get big to be strong and have phenominal strength which sounds more appropriate.
.

All big for no reason LOL! :D
 
What is the true purpose of being able to lift the front end of a small car? There are guys out there who can't bench more than 60 pounds, and they make it just fine in life.

Duuuuude! Rent Pumping Iron and watch Franco lift a car, then tell me you don't want to be able to do that...
 
What is the true purpose of being able to lift the front end of a small car? There are guys out there who can't bench more than 60 pounds, and they make it just fine in life.

The guys that can't bench 60 lbs aren't weightlifters that train for sarcoplasmic or myofibrillar hypertrophy. They bench press 60 lbs because they have no interest in becoming bigger or stronger, this thread is dedicated to people that do want to become bigger and/or stronger.

We're not teaching people to lift the front end of the car. We're telling them how to get strong enough to begin bodybuilding splits and techniques that would allow you to lift with both volume and a lot of intensity for your size without having to sacrifice one or the other.
 
To say their is no need for strength is laughable. Those people who bash functional strength as a beginner will never get anywhere. When you hear an advanced physique bash functional strength that person is already forgetting they are already freakin strong.

every competitive bodybuider in my gym is real strong. Maybe not as strong as every powerlifter. But still stronger than 90% of the people on this thread.
 
No one is suggesting any program is better than universally all other programs. Because EVERYTHING CAN and WILL work to a certain extent. But you cannot say that free weights are not superior to smith machines. For the last time, the unnatural movement pattern disallows the stabilizers, synergists and supporting muscle groups to be overloaded and therefore would not add to functional strength seeing it is dismissed from the three dimentional plane the body is used to.

Thank you, I am quite aware of the three [saggital, transverse and coronal] planes and the body's movement through these planes on any given lift. However, your posts [again] assume several things, which give off a tone of dictation: not all or even most individuals on this site are concerned with "functional strength"; not all or even most individuals on this site privilege "strength" over "mass" [though, to a certain extent, sarcoplasmic and myofribillar hypertrophy are linked; the neuromuscular component of strength notwithstanding, speaking strictly about hypertrophy], and; that myself or anybody else is claiming that Smith Machines are 'superior' to free weights in any given context.

You claim you are not propagating a given approach over all others in all instances, when you clearly are: as I say, you are assuming that we all lift for "functional strength", when that is clearly not the case. As I say, making "always" statements is more often than not a sign of two things: lack of knowledge, or lack of experimentation. Most exercises have their place.

I tend to disagree. There's only one goal in bodybuilding/powerlifting, it's to progress at SOMETHING. Whether that be strength, size or endurance it's usually ALWAYS one or the other. Building muscle and/or burning fat would be categorized under size, seeing it deals with the posture and muscle density. I am suggesting that the linear progress should be taken advantage of. Changing things up for muscle confusion can and will work. But changing so that your body doesn't adapt doesn't make sense, adaption should be the goal, not something you should avoid. Changing isolation movements is fine, but the compounds should always come first.

Not so, in my opinion. Not everybody in the gym wants to be: a) Dennis Jackson, or; b) Mendelson. To say there is only one goal, again, is both ignorant and short-sighted. Goals vary on a person to person basis, particularly when a certain stage of development is reached; in order to give your point credence, we must boil our definitions to such little meeting they no longer satisfy their original intent.

In regard to adaptation, biomechanics and simple physiology would tend to disagree with you. To seek adaptation is to seek a lack of alteration in muscle fiber dynamics, composition and response which is antithetical to growth; in fact, the goal is quite the opposite of what you are saying here. I believe you mean to say "achievement" should be the goal - that is, reaching certain statuses/achievement as a sign of "linear progress".

The cellular adaptation of skeletal muscle to exercise is regulated by a signal transduction pathway - most notably, the so-called "effector proteins" which are in a general class of transcription regulators. These proteins regulate the transcription and translation of DNA, thereby controlling muscle-gene expression. These genes, in turn, then control the natural phenotypic variation of fiber types, sarcomere length, the uniformity of contraction, peptide binding sites, AMPk binding sites, Ca2+ sequestering and cholinergic sensitivity, and every other factor deemed necessary for growth. Obviously, gene expression plays a prominent role in the development of muscle.

Now, why do I mention this? Because it shows your points to be intellectually inconsistent. These transcription-induced changes in muscle-gene expression come as a result of consistently altered movement variation. Much of the research in molecular exercise physiology relates that constant movement repetition leads to a down-regulation of the genes responsible for many of the processes I listed above - i.e., not varying your stimulus set produces passivity, and not growth. There is more.

From a neuromuscular standpoint, your case is even more grim. The classic "neurons that fire together wire together" standpoint to innervation and muscle-recruitment patterns illuminate something clearly: the higher the frequency of action potential generation between a set of neurons, the higher the probability that these neurons will form synaptic connections. What does this mean, in layman's terms? It means that the more one generates action potentials between the same set of neurons, the higher the probability the connections between them will ossify. While this sounds great, it comes with a caveat: the formation of these synaptic connections comes necessarily at the expense of more spontaneous recruit patterns - i.e., it limits the capacity for muscular activation in non-orthodox [relative to the person] movements. So, not introducing variation of recruit patterns for the sake of avoiding adaptation limits progress - literally.

To cease adaptations in phenotypic variation, muscle fiber composition, sarcomere length and the wide-range of other processes I spoke about is to literally seek to cease growing. Period.

At any rate, I am not claiming Smith Machine > Free Weights. You merely have some ideas that literally fly in the face of science, and I am pointing those inconsistencies out.
 
Thank you, I am quite aware of the three [saggital, transverse and coronal] planes and the body's movement through these planes on any given lift. However, your posts [again] assume several things, which give off a tone of dictation: not all or even most individuals on this site are concerned with "functional strength"; not all or even most individuals on this site privilege "strength" over "mass" [though, to a certain extent, sarcoplasmic and myofribillar hypertrophy are linked; the neuromuscular component of strength notwithstanding, speaking strictly about hypertrophy], and; that myself or anybody else is claiming that Smith Machines are 'superior' to free weights in any given context.

Once again, I never said that smith machines or any machine for that matter doesn't have their place. I said compound movements with free weights should always come first, exhausting the chest before the bench press doesn't make sense, just like exhausting the triceps before the bench press doesn't make sense, the bench press is not only better for "functional strength" but is an overall mass better mass building exercise than a fly for instance, therefore should come first. You're correct about the three dimentional planes [transverse, saggital, but I thought the other was frontal?

: as I say, you are assuming that we all lift for "functional strength", when that is clearly not the case. As I say, making "always" statements is more often than not a sign of two things: lack of knowledge, or lack of experimentation. Most exercises have their place.

I said exercises have their place, what you've said isn't contrary to anything I suggested. I think I should have proven in this thread already there is no lack of knowledge, perhaps lack of experience seeing I'm only 19. But that will come throughout the years. Isolations are intended to assist compounds in bringing up lagging parts, therefore the compounds should come first. Most routines require compound movements first anyway. I am not assuming we ALL lift for functional strength, but why would someone not lift for it? Once again, it's really considered getting big for nothing. Strength is necessary to get bigger and therefore strength should be a concern of an individual looking to gain mass over strength.



Not so, in my opinion. Not everybody in the gym wants to be: a) Dennis Jackson, or; b) Mendelson. To say there is only one goal, again, is both ignorant and short-sighted. Goals vary on a person to person basis, particularly when a certain stage of development is reached; in order to give your point credence, we must boil our definitions to such little meeting they no longer satisfy their original intent.

There can only be two goals, to reach your goal or to fail at your goal. You DO only go to the gym to improve your skill at SOMETHING, to say this isn't true is what ir ignorant and short-sighted. You're either trying to get bigger, stronger, enhance your endurance, increase your hearts stability, etc. It's always to get better at something.

In regard to adaptation, biomechanics and simple physiology would tend to disagree with you. To seek adaptation is to seek a lack of alteration in muscle fiber dynamics, composition and response which is antithetical to growth; in fact, the goal is quite the opposite of what you are saying here. I believe you mean to say "achievement" should be the goal - that is, reaching certain statuses/achievement as a sign of "linear progress".

What happens when you adapt to something? You become better at it, I work very difficult outside in the hot weather, but once I "adapt" to that enviornment I'm capable of working much more efficiently in it. Your body doesn't say "ok, it's Monday I'm doing bench presses, let's give this guy a hard time doing them". As long as you're increasing weight, reps, sets, tempo, etc. you're progressing and THAT is how you enhance your strength, stanima, or whatever your goal is.

At any rate, I am not claiming Smith Machine > Free Weights. You merely have some ideas that literally fly in the face of science, and I am pointing those inconsistencies out.

Right and I'm glad you do that. If there are inconsistencies in the principles I propose then please feel free to point that out. Just don't start personal attacks of calling someone ''ignorant'' when they disagree with you, I disagree with a lot that science says and so does a lot of bodybuilders. You break down muscle tissue and then the muscle tissue repairs, it doesn't become immuned to being broken down to bench presses and no longer respond. As long as you are always INCREASING SOMETHING you will respond. Whether it be the amount of reps you are performing with your workload, whether it be the amount of weight you're using, as long as you're progressing so will your body in whatever your goal may be. Sticking WITH bench presses allow me to add more weight, reps, etc. and work more efficiently in that plane of motion and therefore it allows me to get better at that and further develop my chest. Dropping bench presses while trying to get stronger and/or increase what it is I'm working with doesn't make sense to me at all.

I never said machines didn't have their place, I simply implied the biggest mass builders should come first.
 
You're exactly right.



If you feel you have energy left and would like to practice squeezing the muscle with machines/isolations, that's perfectly fine. The moral that myself and a few others have been proposing is that free weights should come first. I'm glad you understand that now.

oo i always agree free weights should come first, i just thought u meant machines had no place at all, but now i get what u mean.. my workout today was something like this

Deads to ORM
V-bar around the barbell and pull to chest 4 x 8-10
Lat pulldowns behind head and infront 2 sets each
Seated cable pulls 3 x 15 very light weight
Decline Dumbell Rows very light as well

decided to do decline DB rows to hit bottom lats thats why the free weight happened to come at the end otherwise i burn out with machines
 
Once again, I never said that smith machines or any machine for that matter doesn't have their place. I said compound movements with free weights should always come first, exhausting the chest before the bench press doesn't make sense, just like exhausting the triceps before the bench press doesn't make sense, the bench press is not only better for "functional strength" but is an overall mass better mass building exercise than a fly for instance, therefore should come first. You're correct about the three dimentional planes [transverse, saggital, but I thought the other was frontal?

Frontal is known as the frontal plane, the coronal plane and the longitudinal plane; just as the transverse plane is also known as the median plane, for example. Differing terminology.

I said exercises have their place, what you've said isn't contrary to anything I suggested. I think I should have proven in this thread already there is no lack of knowledge, perhaps lack of experience seeing I'm only 19. But that will come throughout the years. Isolations are intended to assist compounds in bringing up lagging parts, therefore the compounds should come first. Most routines require compound movements first anyway. I am not assuming we ALL lift for functional strength, but why would someone not lift for it? Once again, it's really considered getting big for nothing. Strength is necessary to get bigger and therefore strength should be a concern of an individual looking to gain mass over strength.

You are certainly showing the fact you are 19, insofar as assuming each individual lifter should, or would want to, adhere to a single goal. As I said, sarcoplasmic hypertrophy and myofribillar hypertrophy are difficult to delineate in earnest - the relationship between sarcomere/myofiber generation and training is not so linear. What you are failing to recognize is intent here: not everybody wants to, nor should want to, go into the gym wishing to increase their strength primarily or exclusively. I have a ~300 Decline, a ~365 Squat and a DL around 4 or so, but these numbers are completely secondary to my goal of development. I have also attained these numbers as a byproduct of training which completely flies in the face of most of the "always this over that" bullshit you are talking about here. Let me repeat myself: every body will require different sets of stimuli.

There can only be two goals, to reach your goal or to fail at your goal. You DO only go to the gym to improve your skill at SOMETHING, to say this isn't true is what ir ignorant and short-sighted. You're either trying to get bigger, stronger, enhance your endurance, increase your hearts stability, etc. It's always to get better at something.

Not to get picky with logic or anything, but failing and achieving goals are outcomes; so, no, they are not goals. There are two outcomes for a wide-range of goals for a wide-range of people. If you convince yourself lifting is so linear, you are going to have a long, long, long way to go in this.

What happens when you adapt to something? You become better at it, I work very difficult outside in the hot weather, but once I "adapt" to that enviornment I'm capable of working much more efficiently in it. Your body doesn't say "ok, it's Monday I'm doing bench presses, let's give this guy a hard time doing them". As long as you're increasing weight, reps, sets, tempo, etc. you're progressing and THAT is how you enhance your strength, stanima, or whatever your goal is.

This has absolutely nothing to do with what I said, though?


[Right and I'm glad you do that. If there are inconsistencies in the principles I propose then please feel free to point that out.


I did, GymRat. I specifically pointed out above, from an exercise physiology standpoint, why I feel you are wrong. You just keep replying with "it's all this and no this and brolore etc."
 
You are certainly showing the fact you are 19, insofar as assuming each individual lifter should, or would want to, adhere to a single goal. As I said, sarcoplasmic hypertrophy and myofribillar hypertrophy are difficult to delineate in earnest - the relationship between sarcomere/myofiber generation and training is not so linear. What you are failing to recognize is intent here: not everybody wants to, nor should want to, go into the gym wishing to increase their strength primarily or exclusively. I have a ~300 Decline, a ~365 Squat and a DL around 4 or so, but these numbers are completely secondary to my goal of development.

A 300 decline, 365 squat and 400 deadlift are impressive numbers that aquire a great state of strength, which is necessary to gain the sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. The moral I'm trying portary isn't difficult to understand, it's simply that before you paint the walls of your house you apply the base. Which is what I think beginners should do, they should attempt to apply a foundation of strength with basic free weight compound exercises and THEN get picky on their extra stimulus. Everyone is different but until you build your solid foundation you can not really tell your lagging parts to add in the different isolation exercises to bring up those lagging parts unless you already have your foundation/base built with compound movements. If you start out with lagging parts you cannot tell until you try that compound movements alone would bring up those lagging parts.

Not to get picky with logic or anything, but failing and achieving goals are outcomes; so, no, they are not goals. There are two outcomes for a wide-range of goals for a wide-range of people. If you convince yourself lifting is so linear, you are going to have a long, long, long way to go in this.

Failing to achieve goals is always due to applying too much or too little. If I go to the gym everyday and put in 100 sets of bench presses chances are I'm going to end up failing at achieving my full potential, yet if I go to the gym once per week and do a set of bench presses I'm once again doing too little. No one's goal is to fail, therefore there WOULD only be one goal and it's to succeed at whatever it is you train for. Whether that be sarcoplasmic or myofibrillar hypertrophy or just to increase athletic performance by enhancing endurance.

This has absolutely nothing to do with what I said, though?

I had trouble understanding all of that biology. I'm in a computer science major with a certification as a personal trainer from the American Councel on Exercise, you are a Doctor, it's much easier for you to understand the terms you proposed than me, so I don't know if you were saying train FOR or AWAY from adaption. But I've trained for three years without changing my exercises and responded oustandingly. I've went from 125 pounds @ 14% bodyfat to 205 pounds to about 22% bodyfat. My bench press has nearly doubled. Squat and deadlift hasn't increased much but primarily because I don't even train them. All because I've allowed my muscles to adapt to those exercises and therefore they have become better and performing those exercises.





I did, GymRat. I specifically pointed out above, from an exercise physiology standpoint, why I feel you are wrong. You just keep replying with "it's all this and no this and brolore etc."

I have pointed out why free weights have a more realistic philosophy than a machine. I've pointed out that machine exercises cancel the overall effect of the workout by dismissing the effect and utilization of the stabilizers, why work just the chest with a bench press without working the triceps, agonists, stabilizers and other supporting muscle groups? The whole benefit of a compound movement is the various muscle groups they overload at one time, with this in mind canceling this for machine exercise that limits the range of motion and the muscle groups utilized to perform that range of motion seems to be backwards training to me.
 
oo i always agree free weights should come first, i just thought u meant machines had no place at all, but now i get what u mean.. my workout today was something like this

Right! I never said machines have no place at all, I prefer machine isolations. I prefer machine flys, sit ups, leg presses and other machines but I feel the benefits from free weights cannot be replaced via a machine so therefore you should do them first. I agree machines can and should be used depended upon the first, I just have a strong belief that your workout should go from free weight compound training, to isolation training whether it be from machines, dumbells, barbells or whatever your preference is.
 
I had trouble understanding all of that biology. I'm in a computer science major with a certification as a personal trainer from the American Councel on Exercise, you are a Doctor, it's much easier for you to understand the terms you proposed than me, so I don't know if you were saying train FOR or AWAY from adaption. But I've trained for three years without changing my exercises and responded oustandingly. I've went from 125 pounds @ 14% bodyfat to 205 pounds to about 22% bodyfat. My bench press has nearly doubled. Squat and deadlift hasn't increased much but primarily because I don't even train them. All because I've allowed my muscles to adapt to those exercises and therefore they have become better and performing those exercises.

I graduated with a Philosophy/Sociology Double Major and I am a Law student; no doctor here. I just choose to learn what is occuring within my body, rather than assuming on the basis of anecdotal evidence alone.

You are really saying the same things over-and-over again, and not really taking the import from my points. Not a big deal, but this argument is a bit fruitless.
 
I graduated with a Philosophy/Sociology Double Major and I am a Law student; no doctor here. I just choose to learn what is occuring within my body, rather than assuming on the basis of anecdotal evidence alone.

You are really saying the same things over-and-over again, and not really taking the import from my points. Not a big deal, but this argument is a bit fruitless.

Your signature says Dr. My range of interest goes out to the exercise science rather than the biology, yes what you posted can range under exercise due to it being based after exercises, but seems to have a bit more due to the biology.

I say things "over and over" because they are valid points. I disagree that a machine should come before free weights and I'm entitled to that opinion, others in the thread have agreed.
 
Your signature says Dr. My range of interest goes out to the exercise science rather than the biology, yes what you posted can range under exercise due to it being based after exercises, but seems to have a bit more due to the biology.

I say things "over and over" because they are valid points. I disagree that a machine should come before free weights and I'm entitled to that opinion, others in the thread have agreed.

Sigh. Are you normally this argumentative over completely irrelevant points? I can see already that your completely linear philosophy and argumentative style is not going to serve you well with your clientelle.

The Dr. thing is an inside joke.

Exercise physiology and biology are inexorably linked: the former is informed intrinsically by the latter.
 
Sigh. Are you normally this argumentative over completely irrelevant points? I can see already that your completely linear philosophy and argumentative style is not going to serve you well with your clientelle.

Are you always this argumenative when someone disagrees with you with your whole "I am always right and those who disagree with me and don't change their philosophies because it goes against mine" type fashion? What is "ignorant" is training what you gave seen to work for yourself and others because someone else tells you it's one minded.

How is what I said irrelevant? I simply said WHY I think free weights should come before machines (not eliminating machines completely). Performing a heavy weight in an unnatural range of motion can increse injury to the body. It also doesn't add to functional strength (this goes out for those who train for functional strength in their goal) and it also weakens the stabilizers and supporting muscle groups. With machine based movements you would have to work each muscle group individually for an overall effective workout while with free weights you would be able to overload each muscle group necessary for hypertrophy within a single range of motion.

regardless of your goal, we can all agree the harder you push your body the bigger adaptations you will see. Free weight movements make the body work harder than fixed plane movements on a machine ever could. Harder work = more gains, plain and simple. This means more strength and more size as with increased size comes increased strength, and increased size comes increased strength. The harder the body works, the more muscles overloaded and utilized, the more overall effective the workout is.

That's my philosophy and that alone tells me I need to train for free weights with accessory machines. I'm done with the discussion though, it's getting nowhere. Others can review the thread and make out what they want for their own goals. If someone feels machines will help them better than free weights, I hope it works out for you. If someone feels they would rather use free weights and machines, that's cool. If someone wants to use free weights only, that's cool too. But nothing that can be said is going to change anyone's mind.
 
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