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Starting hCG monotherapy

LeanGuy said:
OTC in USA... Unisom (doxylamine)... highly sedating even at low doses.
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colkurtz_spf said:
Phenibut is far better than GABA. I've heard you can develop a tolerance to it, but I think it applies more to people who use it on a daily basis to control anxiety. I don't use it every night - only when I notice the quality of my sleep declining. I usually don't need it after a couple of weeks. The magnesium in ZMA has a soporific quality, but you need much larger doses to achieve sleep. One good product is Becalmed. It will also help with muscle aches/cramps and keep you regular too.
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Do either of these products (Unisom, Becalmed) make you feel like you have a hangover in the morning?
 
colkurtz_spf said:
I don't know about Unisom, but antihistamines tend to make me groggy. Becalmed's main ingredient is magnesium. You'll wake up feeling refreshed.
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Are you talking about Neu-BeCALM'd which has mag plus other neuro ingredients? I use a fizzy drink called "magnesium calm" but the problem is upset stomach if I use too much (mag citrate). Is there a better form of mag for sensitive stomach? I'd like to take more before bed.
 
LeanGuy said:
Are you talking about Neu-BeCALM'd which has mag plus other neuro ingredients? I use a fizzy drink called "magnesium calm" but the problem is upset stomach if I use too much (mag citrate). Is there a better form of mag for sensitive stomach? I'd like to take more before bed.
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It's probably a similar drink if not the same. You may want to look into capsules.
 
Lammermoor said:
Wow - it wouldn't be good if I grew by that much (I'm a runner). Were you working out?
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You can't gain muscle without working and eating for it in the first place. It won't just magically appear.

You're not going to bulk up by running.


On a side note: Since I've started hcg + liquidex (monotherapy), I've started breaking out on my shoulders and back worse than I ever have before. Is this likely from too much fluctuation in e2 levels? I was hitting the adex a bit hard at first, going to ease off a bit now. I was paranoid at the slightest itch so I was probably using too much. But what would be likely causing the bacne to be so bad? I've never had it like this. Thinking of starting accutane now.

edit: nm, will start my own thread
 
LeanGuy said:
Wow, were you already in shape?
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I was in relatively good shape - as good as I could be with low T. I do work out a lot. I lift weights fours days a week - mostly higher repetitions but not with light weights. Three out of five of my bench press sets are at 225 for 10-12 reps. Every other week I'll throw in a set of 6-8 at 275 just to keep up my strength. I stopped going over six plates a few years ago because of an elbow injury. My heaviest lift is dead 4-6 @ 455. I need to keep that up because I have a spinal condition and my core muscles need to stay strong. I stopped doing heavey squats because of my left knee.

Monday, Wednesday and Friday mornings I play one hard hour of tennis. I was a touring pro in the 70s. My game is close to what it was, but it's hard to sustain that level for much more than an hour. Three mornings I do 30 minutes of HIT cardio after I drop my son at school and Sundays. I eat pretty clean.

Within the first 3 months of HCG therapy I noticed a major recomposition. Since then it's been maintaining and nothing more. But I'm happy with where I'm at and the way I feel - especially when it comes to sex. :sasmokin:
 
Gutterpump said:
You can't gain muscle without working and eating for it in the first place. It won't just magically appear.

You're not going to bulk up by running.


On a side note: Since I've started hcg + liquidex (monotherapy), I've started breaking out on my shoulders and back worse than I ever have before. Is this likely from too much fluctuation in e2 levels? I was hitting the adex a bit hard at first, going to ease off a bit now. I was paranoid at the slightest itch so I was probably using too much. But what would be likely causing the bacne to be so bad? I've never had it like this. Thinking of starting accutane now.

edit: nm, will start my own thread
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I know that testosterone will make you break out but haven't heard the same for E2. Do you have labs?
 
I think the main thing with hormonal acne is fluctuation levels though. As long as the levels remain stable, even if high, there should be very little sides.

I don't have new labs, been dosing based off how I feel. I've also been searching for a new doctor, but I should order my own labs today just to be sure about my current levels.

Currently doing 500iu hcg e3d. Was taking .5mg of liquidex on each of these days. I skipped my dosing of liquidex on my last shot (2 days ago)...I felt a bit of light itching the day after around my chest, but erections were like diamonds yesterday.

Thing is, if I am sticking to this schedule, I don't see how my levels could be changing often enough to cause hormonal acne.

To be honest, it started mainly when I switched from T shots to HCG only (just over two months ago), but has been getting worse. I definitely feel better on HCG though. I had a crash when transitioning though. I felt like **** for almost a whole month.
 
Gutterpump said:
I think the main thing with hormonal acne is fluctuation levels though. As long as the levels remain stable, even if high, there should be very little sides.

I don't have new labs, been dosing based off how I feel. I've also been searching for a new doctor, but I should order my own labs today just to be sure about my current levels.

Currently doing 500iu hcg e3d. Was taking .5mg of liquidex on each of these days. I skipped my dosing of liquidex on my last shot (2 days ago)...I felt a bit of light itching the day after around my chest, but erections were like diamonds yesterday.

Thing is, if I am sticking to this schedule, I don't see how my levels could be changing often enough to cause hormonal acne.

To be honest, it started mainly when I switched from T shots to HCG only (just over two months ago), but has been getting worse. I definitely feel better on HCG though. I had a crash when transitioning though. I felt like **** for almost a whole month.
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It takes a while for the transition to work. I was on transdermal for a year before I started HCG. In the beginning I felt tired, run down and unable to focus. The good news is that after my first year I took an 8 month break and didn't feel so bad. My baselines returned quickly.

I remember getting acne on my shoulders when I first started HCG. In time it went away. I'm not sure why.
 
Gutterpump said:
You can't gain muscle without working and eating for it in the first place. It won't just magically appear.

You're not going to bulk up by running.


On a side note: Since I've started hcg + liquidex (monotherapy), I've started breaking out on my shoulders and back worse than I ever have before. Is this likely from too much fluctuation in e2 levels? I was hitting the adex a bit hard at first, going to ease off a bit now. I was paranoid at the slightest itch so I was probably using too much. But what would be likely causing the bacne to be so bad? I've never had it like this. Thinking of starting accutane now.

edit: nm, will start my own thread
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I'm thinking either spikes in some peripheral hormones as well (since HCG stimulates so much) and/or reaction/sensitivity to the HCG itself.
 
Gutterpump said:
You can't gain muscle without working and eating for it in the first place. It won't just magically appear.

You're not going to bulk up by running.


On a side note: Since I've started hcg + liquidex (monotherapy), I've started breaking out on my shoulders and back worse than I ever have before. Is this likely from too much fluctuation in e2 levels? I was hitting the adex a bit hard at first, going to ease off a bit now. I was paranoid at the slightest itch so I was probably using too much. But what would be likely causing the bacne to be so bad? I've never had it like this. Thinking of starting accutane now.

edit: nm, will start my own thread
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Thanks - I guess my legs might get a bit bigger but I can live with the increase in power and increased hematocrit!
 
Lammermoor said:
Thanks - I guess my legs might get a bit bigger but I can live with the increase in power and increased hematocrit!
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If you're training consists of long distance running your legs will not get bigger. You will probably experience more power, focus and endurance. I doubt you'll see much in the way of elevated hematocrit. Each blood draw should be more than enough to keep that in line. HCG, if injected every 3 or 4 days induces a circadian rhythm in the rise of testosterone and other hormones. Your levels will fluctuate as they normally do - just in a higher range.
 
colkurtz_spf said:
If you're training consists of long distance running your legs will not get bigger. You will probably experience more power, focus and endurance. I doubt you'll see much in the way of elevated hematocrit. Each blood draw should be more than enough to keep that in line. HCG, if injected every 3 or 4 days induces a circadian rhythm in the rise of testosterone and other hormones. Your levels will fluctuate as they normally do - just in a higher range.
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Thanks colkurtz_spf. I never thought the blood draws would make much difference but casting my mind back to my last one my running was a tiny bit harder going afterwards. I thought I was imagining it!
 
Pls let me ask a question in your thread. Has anyone tested their hCG with a home pregnancy test by urinating several hours after hCG injection? I once read it would (should?) trigger a "positive" if the hCG was indeed good. I am trying to validate my source of hCG. I have tried the preg test twice, but negative both times. This is my first purchase, and after three weeks, I feel nothing and the boys have not filled out. I started with 250 iu twice a week, then eod, now I am doing 300iu eod. I have been on TRT for the last 8 months with T cyp, so maybe it will take a little longer?
 
longrob said:
Pls let me ask a question in your thread. Has anyone tested their hCG with a home pregnancy test by urinating several hours after hCG injection? I once read it would (should?) trigger a "positive" if the hCG was indeed good. I am trying to validate my source of hCG. I have tried the preg test twice, but negative both times. This is my first purchase, and after three weeks, I feel nothing and the boys have not filled out. I started with 250 iu twice a week, then eod, now I am doing 300iu eod. I have been on TRT for the last 8 months with T cyp, so maybe it will take a little longer?
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Anybody can get a bad batch from the pharmacy, but I think your method is inaccurate.

I think youre supposed to actually expose the pregnancy test to the alleged HCG. IOW, empty the syringe on the test, not pee on it. I don't thing injecting HCG will necessarily raise urinary HCG.
 
longrob said:
Thanks rick,
Any idea how long hCG takes to start working? I am 55 y/o.
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Lots of variables: individual physiology, age, length of HPT suppression, etc...

You really need a good anti-aging doctor. You should look up Dr. Crisler in MI. I believe he can treat you through the local doctor currently providing you your HCG.
 
thanks rick,
I have recently read some of Dr Crisler's protocol. Pls tell me, what do you mean when you say, "I believe he can treat you through the local doctor providing currently you your HCG"?
How would he treat me through my local doc?
 
longrob said:
thanks rick,
I have recently read some of Dr Crisler's protocol. Pls tell me, what do you mean when you say, "I believe he can treat you through the local doctor providing currently you your HCG"?
How would he treat me through my local doc?
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I may be wrong, but if you are unable to meet with Dr. C in Michigan, he can consult with your local treating physician.
 
rick055 said:
I may be wrong, but if you are unable to meet with Dr. C in Michigan, he can consult with your local treating physician.
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mark my words the new protocol in the future will be hcg first if pass the clomid challenge and then replace the topping off T with gel ..Its really depends on each indivdual case, but less drugs and more on your own body's production is better for long term till your balls get tired. hopefully by that time a new technique will come out to replace gels, and shots.
 
The Matrix said:
mark my words the new protocol in the future will be hcg first if pass the clomid challenge and then replace the topping off T with gel ..Its really depends on each indivdual case, but less drugs and more on your own body's production is better for long term till your balls get tired. hopefully by that time a new technique will come out to replace gels, and shots.
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Let's hope this field of medicine progresses. I don't think the general public realizes how much of a problem hormone deficiency is.
 
The Matrix said:
mark my words the new protocol in the future will be hcg first if pass the clomid challenge and then replace the topping off T with gel ..Its really depends on each indivdual case, but less drugs and more on your own body's production is better for long term till your balls get tired. hopefully by that time a new technique will come out to replace gels, and shots.
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What exactly does it mean to pass the clomid challenge. As in, given a dose of clomid if T increases then the problem is secondary?
 
rick055 said:
What exactly does it mean to pass the clomid challenge. As in, given a dose of clomid if T increases then the problem is secondary?
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Clomid has traditionally been used to see if the testes are capable of producing adequate levels of testosterone. Men who pass this test have secondary hypogonadism - their testes still function - the problem is in the hypothalmus (not enough LH). The primary condition is when the testes are no longer capable of producing adequate levels of testosterone. If a patient passes the clomid test he is put on HCG for long-term treatment. The action of clomid may be more desirable; it stimulates the secretion of LH rather than mimic it. The problem is that it's too toxic to the liver for long-term use. Many doctors today go straight to HCG. Either the patients respond or they don't.
 
colkurtz_spf said:
Clomid has traditionally been used to see if the testes are capable of producing adequate levels of testosterone. Men who pass this test have secondary hypogonadism - their testes still function - the problem is in the hypothalmus (not enough LH). The primary condition is when the testes are no longer capable of producing adequate levels of testosterone. If a patient passes the clomid test he is put on HCG for long-term treatment. The action of clomid may be more desirable; it stimulates the secretion of LH rather than mimic it. The problem is that it's too toxic to the liver for long-term use. Many doctors today go straight to HCG. Either the patients respond or they don't.
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If one were on TRT, would one expect clomid to raise serum T in the same fashion? Said another way, could you still perform a clomid stim test while on TRT?
 
rick055 said:
If one were on TRT, would one expect clomid to raise serum T in the same fashion? Said another way, could you still perform a clomid stim test while on TRT?
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Rule of thumb
clomid and nolvdex are short term (2-3 months MAX) dangerous if used long term
hcg is long term treatment
My thing is why shut down your own production when there is no need. By using a small dosage of hcg you find the cross over to where as testosterone rises there is a greater ratio of e2. Once this point is found then one could top off the rest with the minimal amount of T gel, or shots.
 
The Matrix said:
Rule of thumb
clomid and nolvdex are short term (2-3 months MAX) dangerous if used long term
hcg is long term treatment
My thing is why shut down your own production when there is no need. By using a small dosage of hcg you find the cross over to where as testosterone rises there is a greater ratio of e2. Once this point is found then one could top off the rest with the minimal amount of T gel, or shots.
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I inject HCG twice per week and include half a milligram of Arimidex. My TT is usually over 950 with BAT over 450 and E2 at 24. I maintain healthy levels of cholesterol. Is there any reason I should drop the Adex and shoot T?
 
colkurtz_spf said:
I inject HCG twice per week and include half a milligram of Arimidex. My TT is usually over 950 with BAT over 450 and E2 at 24. I maintain healthy levels of cholesterol. Is there any reason I should drop the Adex and shoot T?
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It depends on biochemistry of the person. I have seen people shoot hcg at minimal dosage and need 2 mgs of adex a week to combat the estrogen which is absurbed amounts. In these people keeping lower dosages of hcg and topping it off with little gel will reduce the need for adex because they seem not to convert to much e2 through conversion of the gels. In specfic cases you get them to the point of where the benefit ratio of T/E is optimal then add in small amounts of t gel to get them rest of the way. Again every one is different and I am just looking at ideas to minimize drugs. People that do not respond to hcg are usually low vitamin D or vitamin E levels, altered hormone binding. Once these are corrected then hcg then can be fully effective with less dosages required. if a person cellular receptors are optimal, and properly nutriet balanced then smaller dosages of hcg will have great benefits. HRT is always changing and new suggestion are coming up. I always like to brain storm on ways to reduce medication to get the most benfit to the person.
 
colkurtz_spf said:
I inject HCG twice per week and include half a milligram of Arimidex. My TT is usually over 950 with BAT over 450 and E2 at 24. I maintain healthy levels of cholesterol. Is there any reason I should drop the Adex and shoot T?
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JOOC, is your HCG prescribed by a conventional or anti-aging doctor?
 
The Matrix said:
It depends on biochemistry of the person. I have seen people shoot hcg at minimal dosage and need 2 mgs of adex a week to combat the estrogen which is absurbed amounts. In these people keeping lower dosages of hcg and topping it off with little gel will reduce the need for adex because they seem not to convert to much e2 through conversion of the gels. In specfic cases you get them to the point of where the benefit ratio of T/E is optimal then add in small amounts of t gel to get them rest of the way. Again every one is different and I am just looking at ideas to minimize drugs. People that do not respond to hcg are usually low vitamin D or vitamin E levels, altered hormone binding. Once these are corrected then hcg then can be fully effective with less dosages required. if a person cellular receptors are optimal, and properly nutriet balanced then smaller dosages of hcg will have great benefits. HRT is always changing and new suggestion are coming up. I always like to brain storm on ways to reduce medication to get the most benfit to the person.
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That's interesting stuff about vitamin D and E. I'm with you on reducing medication. Believe me, I've tried every alternative to HRT.
 
colkurtz_spf said:
I get it from an anti-aging doc, but I 'm sure my urologist would prescribe it. He does my Arimidex.
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Funny. My urologist has me scared to death of long term HCG after our conversation today.

Of course she also told me she would have expected my LH to be higher because I'm on HCG.
 
That there are no studies (that she was aware of) to support its use long term in men.

Caveat: This is the same urologist who told me she would have expected to see my LH higher (than <0.01) because I was on HCG. She apparently didn't understand HCG will only add to suppression; I asked her if she was thinking about clomid. She also told me she would have expected me to be infertile, and then I told her my wife is 12 weeks.

My understanding was that HCG has been used long term in males to treat secondary hypogonadism; I would love to find a study which supports its use long term.
 
rick055 said:
That there are no studies (that she was aware of) to support its use long term in men.

Caveat: This is the same urologist who told me she would have expected to see my LH higher (than <0.01) because I was on HCG. She apparently didn't understand HCG will only add to suppression; I asked her if she was thinking about clomid. She also told me she would have expected me to be infertile, and then I told her my wife is 12 weeks.

My understanding was that HCG has been used long term in males to treat secondary hypogonadism; I would love to find a study which supports its use long term.
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Any reports that I have seen referring to it's use in male fertility treatment, recommend the patient stay on the protocol even after pregnancy is achieved. Ask your doctor, is this not long term use?

Your LH is going to be low on HCG because HCG replaces natural LH and shuts down your LH production! HCG acts as LH, and stimulates your testes and other LH receptors. NOthing scary about what your doctor is saying, but her lack of knowledge in TRT/HRT, and on these drugs, sounds scary. You need a new doctor!

I have had the same experience with an endo and a uro here in NYC. They are good for diabetes and for a few other ailments I think...but definitely they are not at the cutting edge of hormone replacement therapy.
 
rick055 said:
That there are no studies (that she was aware of) to support its use long term in men.

Caveat: This is the same urologist who told me she would have expected to see my LH higher (than <0.01) because I was on HCG. She apparently didn't understand HCG will only add to suppression; I asked her if she was thinking about clomid. She also told me she would have expected me to be infertile, and then I told her my wife is 12 weeks.

My understanding was that HCG has been used long term in males to treat secondary hypogonadism; I would love to find a study which supports its use long term.
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Studies have been posted here. I posted one a week or so ago...wish I remembered which board. I've been using HCG with great success for three years. I took 8 months off at one point and was just as responsive when I resumed. I suppose I qualify as a case study.
 
Yea, the scary part is her ignorance. Simply reading the studies posted here and on other forums has equipped me with more knowledge than most endos or urologists seem to posses.
 
Update

I've been doing 400IU E3D for the past couple weeks. I haven't noticed a change in how I feel, but I'm going to keep this dose until my next labs in a couple weeks. Still have low libido and erections... barely morning wood. But I am not sleeping well at all... that's probably the cause.

Its weird, the first couple weeks on HCG (only 250iu) I was really impressed... everything improved including sleep... but haven't felt that again. E2 did not go high like I thought... it was only 21 on the sensitive test. I am going to stay the course and be patient.
 
lean, are you feeling worse since the increase HCG or just the same as when you first started it?

hows the HC going?
 
LeanGuy said:
Feel the same on increased HCG.

HC has helped my workouts, but not sex or sleep yet.
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Leanguy, increased cortisol might be reducing your free and bioavailable T. Did you begin Cortef at the same time or after increasing your hCG dose? That's still a really small dose, so you have some latitude.

Good luck
 
jinxie said:
Leanguy, increased cortisol might be reducing your free and bioavailable T. Did you begin Cortef at the same time or after increasing your hCG dose? That's still a really small dose, so you have some latitude.

Good luck
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yeah, about the same time... but I'm only taking HC 5-10mg (10 on workout days). I'll retest morning cortisol to make sure it isn't getting too high. I think I burn most of it off at the gym. I've heard some people say low dose HC helps with erections.
 
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