Starting hCG monotherapy

Gutterpump said:
Not that I know of, other than it was meant to be shot IM. I don't see a benefit of shooting sub-q, not with hcg. I can see why with test (easier, more comfortable shot - even though with test I still prefer a 1" pin IM into thigh) but IM with slin pin is like slicing butter with a hot knife, and I know that the shot isn't lingering in fat as well, I know that I am getting my intended dose on each day that I take the shot. The half life is long, so I don't see a need for delaying it's release as well.
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It was meant to be shot IM 10,000 IUs per week. I've tried it both ways and found neither to be uncomfortable. I don't inject frequently so that may be why subq works better for me. My results have been outstanding.
 
aisstea said:
i read in a german university study from last year that IM is more effect full. I think I know why it was uncomfortable, I did the shot in the front thighs and not in the side how it is recommended...
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My doctor told me to inject subq. I never asked him about IM. I suppose muscular scar tissue would be very slight with an insulin needle. I've injected in several places including the front of my thigh and felt nothing.
 
colkurtz_spf said:
My doctor told me to inject subq. I never asked him about IM. I suppose muscular scar tissue would be very slight with an insulin needle. I've injected in several places including the front of my thigh and felt nothing.
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well, you didn't do IM:o

But the same thing I've got, I read from many other users after a google search.

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Where is the most favorite place for you guys to give the shot?
 
I mentioned before that I've done both IM and subq. For whatever reason, neither caused me discomfort. It could be the syringe. I use a 5/16 "/31 gage pin. I have nothing against it - was only trying to help you. You seemed to be having difficulty. Subq has worked very well for me.

Check out my results first time around. You'll see how low my TT was to begin with. Invalid Link Removed


aisstea said:
well, you didn't do IM:o

But the same thing I've got, I read from many other users after a google search.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Where is the most favorite place for you guys to give the shot?
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colkurtz_spf said:
I mentioned before that I've done both. For whatever reason, neither caused me discomfort. It could be the syringe. I use a 5/16 "/31 gage pin.
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oh, sorry, didn't see that. Well, the discomfort is maybe because of my flu which i've been having since yesterday. It's the worst for around 10 years. Can't even speak... everything hurts.

And how long took it you to feel the benefits of hcg?

But i'm actually happy about the flu. I've got a cold for around 2 years and never got really bad sick. Seems that my immune system starts to work proper.... Maybe because that testosterone is rising IL-2.... what of course is very good. My TH2 is to high and TH1 to low... Since I have the imbalance I've got some chronically diseases.... what is probably because of the immune system imbalance. So I'm happy that I got a real flu...The Matrix, if you read this.... could I be right with my thoughts?... you seem to be the most knowledge here at such topics.
 
aisstea said:
oh, sorry, didn't see that. Well, the discomfort is maybe because of my flu which i've been having since yesterday. It's the worst for around 10 years. Can't even speak... everything hurts.

And how long took it you to feel the benefits of hcg?

But i'm actually happy about the flu. I've got a cold for around 2 years and never got really bad sick. Seems that my immune system starts to work proper.... Maybe because that testosterone is rising IL-2.... what of course is very good. My TH2 is to high and TH1 to low... Since I have the imbalance I've got some chronically diseases.... what is probably because of the immune system imbalance. So I'm happy that I got a real flu...The Matrix, if you read this.... could I be right with my thoughts?... you seem to be the most knowledge here at such topics.
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I felt the benefits almost right away. I think that within three weeks I was in really good shape. You can view my test results in that link I posted. It shows my progress over 10 weeks. I started with a total testosterone just over 90. I was badly shut down.

I hope you feel better.
 
colkurtz_spf said:
I felt the benefits almost right away. I think that within three weeks I was in really good shape. You can view my test results in that link I posted. It shows my progress over 10 weeks. I started with a total testosterone just over 90. I was badly shut down.

I hope you feel better.
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90, damn. that's low. I'm happy that it works so well for you. But I remember that your testo was over 450 before you started with testo gel. I'd like to know how your test would be if you stop taking hcg. Back to all time low?

It's like me. Felt it at the second day...but then got more and more the fllu...and benefits are away. Guess it's normal if you've got a flu. Ok, gonna watch out for your results.
 
aisstea said:
90, damn. that's low. I'm happy that it works so well for you. But I remember that your testo was over 450 before you started with testo gel. I'd like to know how your test would be if you stop taking hcg. Back to all time low?

It's like me. Felt it at the second day...but then got more and more the fllu...and benefits are away. Guess it's normal if you've got a flu. Ok, gonna watch out for your results.
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I stopped HCG for 8 months after one year of therapy and tested several times. My baseline fluctuated between 475 (my original number) and 600. I was using Vitrix when I hit 600, but six weeks later I was back to normal.
 
I'm noticing the hCG has less effect toward the end of the vial... is this common? If its a potency issue, I might increase the dose 50iu each week to compensate.
 
Steveoph said:
Did you swirl it a bit to prevent any settling? Otherwise I don't see why the potency should diminish as long as you don't have it sitting in your fridge for 1month+.
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I don't see any particles... its 3 weeks old (compounded). Maybe my E2 has gone over because I was feeling much better the first two weeks.
 
Here's an interesting study on HCG therapy for men with partial androgen deficiency. It states that although HCG has a 30 hour half life testosterone levels peak in 72 to 96 hours. The patients were treated with 3000 IU shots every two weeks because the binding capacity of testicular HCG receptors is significantly reduced for five days after injection and returns to normal in 14.

Interesting stuff. Here's the link: Invalid Link Removed
 
colkurtz_spf said:
Here's an interesting study on HCG therapy for men with partial androgen deficiency. It states that although HCG has a 30 hour half life testosterone levels peak in 72 to 96 hours. The patients were treated with 3000 IU shots every two weeks because the binding capacity of testicular HCG receptors is significantly reduced for five days after injection and returns to normal in 14.

Interesting stuff. Here's the link: Invalid Link Removed
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So if one were injecting HCG Monday, Thursday and T Tuesday Friday, I wonder what the release profile would look like?
 
rick055 said:
So if one were injecting HCG Monday, Thursday and T Tuesday Friday, I wonder what the release profile would look like?
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Good question! It would probably depend on the patient's testicular condition. If the testes can be stimulated to full function, Monday's injection would peak testosterone levels on Friday when T is injected, which means Thursday's HCG dose may be unnecessary.
 
LeanGuy said:
I don't see any particles... its 3 weeks old (compounded). Maybe my E2 has gone over because I was feeling much better the first two weeks.
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I had the same problem. I believe it was the rise in E2 that did it. Could be different for you since being low has been your problem.

Could also be an adrenal/thyroid connection. I've seen research that indicates low t3 can lead to inefficacy of hcg. And I've also read the hcg boosts thyroid hormones. This was definitely not the case with me. Labs showed t3 low range when I was on it. And testo was sky high.

Or if you think the batch is old, just bump up the dose a small amount
 
thenxtgrt1 said:
I had the same problem. I believe it was the rise in E2 that did it. Could be different for you since being low has been your problem.

Could also be an adrenal/thyroid connection. I've seen research that indicates low t3 can lead to inefficacy of hcg. And I've also read the hcg boosts thyroid hormones. This was definitely not the case with me. Labs showed t3 low range when I was on it. And testo was sky high.

Or if you think the batch is old, just bump up the dose a small amount
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I should have my labs in hand tomorrow, so I'll know for sure!

Tomorrow I am due to mix a new batch and I'll see if I feel different.
 
colkurtz_spf said:
Good question! It would probably depend on the patient's testicular condition. If the testes can be stimulated to full function, Monday's injection would peak testosterone levels on Friday when T is injected, which means Thursday's HCG dose may be unnecessary.
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Interesting, though I just came across this:

Jones, T. H., J. F. Darne, et al. (1994). "Diurnal rhythm of testosterone induced by human chorionic gonadotrophin (hCG) therapy in isolated hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism: a comparison between subcutaneous and intramuscular hCG administration." Eur J Endocrinol 131(2): 173-8.


When human chorionic gonadotrophin (hCG) is used to stimulate testosterone synthesis and release in males with hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism, it is administered two or three times weekly by intramuscular injection. We have compared the pharmacokinetics of a twice weekly standard dose of hCG (5000 U) given for the first week by intramuscular injection and in the second week by self-administered subcutaneous injection. The patients studied had Kallmann's syndrome, isolated idiopathic hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism or post-traumatic isolated hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism. Salivary testosterone was collected twice daily at 08.00 h and 20.00 h, and serum testosterone was collected after 0, 24 h, 72 h, 120 h and 168 h each week. The cumulated serum and salivary testosterone levels were comparable on both intramuscular and subcutaneous hCG. In normal males there is diurnal variation in testosterone, with peak serum levels in the morning falling to a nadir in the evening. The exact nature and controlling factors of this circadian rhythm have not been established. In four of the subjects, the twice weekly hCG injections, either subcutaneous or intramuscular, produced a regular testosterone diurnal rhythm. The other four patients had fluctuations in testosterone but with no strict diurnal pattern. This study provides evidence that the luteinizing hormone-like action of hCG is necessary to prime the circadian rhythm but only a single bolus of hCG is sufficient to induce the rhythm in the absence of endogenous gonadotrophin production.

In conclusion, self-administered subcutaneous hCG is safe and produces comparable levels of serum and salivary testosterone to that administered by the intramuscular route. Moreover, it was very well accepted by the patients and was preferred to conventional treatments. Human hCG in some patients with hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism produces normal physiological changes in daily testosterone levels.

Wonder if bi-weekly T makes good use to establish an even baseline, with twice weekly HCG to attempt to induce diurnal T fluctuations (at least in secondary).
 
rick055 said:
Interesting, though I just came across this:

Jones, T. H., J. F. Darne, et al. (1994). "Diurnal rhythm of testosterone induced by human chorionic gonadotrophin (hCG) therapy in isolated hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism: a comparison between subcutaneous and intramuscular hCG administration." Eur J Endocrinol 131(2): 173-8.


When human chorionic gonadotrophin (hCG) is used to stimulate testosterone synthesis and release in males with hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism, it is administered two or three times weekly by intramuscular injection. We have compared the pharmacokinetics of a twice weekly standard dose of hCG (5000 U) given for the first week by intramuscular injection and in the second week by self-administered subcutaneous injection. The patients studied had Kallmann's syndrome, isolated idiopathic hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism or post-traumatic isolated hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism. Salivary testosterone was collected twice daily at 08.00 h and 20.00 h, and serum testosterone was collected after 0, 24 h, 72 h, 120 h and 168 h each week. The cumulated serum and salivary testosterone levels were comparable on both intramuscular and subcutaneous hCG. In normal males there is diurnal variation in testosterone, with peak serum levels in the morning falling to a nadir in the evening. The exact nature and controlling factors of this circadian rhythm have not been established. In four of the subjects, the twice weekly hCG injections, either subcutaneous or intramuscular, produced a regular testosterone diurnal rhythm. The other four patients had fluctuations in testosterone but with no strict diurnal pattern. This study provides evidence that the luteinizing hormone-like action of hCG is necessary to prime the circadian rhythm but only a single bolus of hCG is sufficient to induce the rhythm in the absence of endogenous gonadotrophin production.

In conclusion, self-administered subcutaneous hCG is safe and produces comparable levels of serum and salivary testosterone to that administered by the intramuscular route. Moreover, it was very well accepted by the patients and was preferred to conventional treatments. Human hCG in some patients with hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism produces normal physiological changes in daily testosterone levels.

Wonder if bi-weekly T makes good use to establish an even baseline, with twice weekly HCG to attempt to induce diurnal T fluctuations (at least in secondary).
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I've been on monotherapy for three years and have seen my best results from bi - weekly injections - better then E3D or EOD. I would inject Wednesdays and Saturdays at night.
 
Results!

Here are my 1st month's results from 250iu E3D... not bad but I'd like to be at the top of range and a little more E2. You guys were right, either underdosed or lost potency toward the end.

Testosterone, serum 678 ng/dL [241-827]
Testosterone, free (direct) 18.9 [8.7-25.1]
Estradiol, sensitive (labcorp) 21 [3-70]
DHEA-S 332 [120-520]
IGF-1 321 [115-307] ** freaking amazing since I sleep like crap

I'm going to talk it over with my doc, but he takes suggestions. What should be my next bump in dosing schedule?
 
LeanGuy said:
Here are my 1st month's results from 250iu E3D... not bad but I'd like to be at the top of range and a little more E2. You guys were right, either underdosed or lost potency toward the end.

Testosterone, serum 678 ng/dL [241-827]
Testosterone, free (direct) 18.9 [8.7-25.1]
Estradiol, sensitive (labcorp) 21 [3-70]
DHEA-S 332 [120-520]
IGF-1 321 [115-307] ** freaking amazing since I sleep like crap

I'm going to talk it over with my doc, but he takes suggestions. What should be my next bump in dosing schedule?
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That's not bad. Maybe you could try 500 IUs twice per week (400IUs per month VS 2500 IUs per month) - once with a three day break and then a four day break (ie. Wed. & Sun). That schedule always worked best for me.
 
colkurtz_spf said:
That's not bad. Maybe you could try 500 IUs twice per week (400IUs per month VS 2500 IUs per month) - once with a three day break and then a four day break (ie. Wed. & Sun). That schedule always worked best for me.
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I would not get to greedy because some of the natural proBB have total testosterone of only 600. Give it time to let the cells respond at the tissue level. Id be happy with those results thats for sure !! Watch that DHEA take a nose dive in a few months
 
The Matrix said:
I would not get to greedy because some of the natural proBB have total testosterone of only 600. Give it time to let the cells respond at the tissue level. Id be happy with those results thats for sure !! Watch that DHEA take a nose dive in a few months
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Yeah, you are right Shawn... it's only been 4 weeks. I did "feel" it more at the beginning, maybe I just need small increases in dose as the vial loses potency. Potency loss is probably more noticeable with monotherapy.
 
The Matrix said:
I would not get to greedy because some of the natural proBB have total testosterone of only 600. Give it time to let the cells respond at the tissue level. Id be happy with those results thats for sure !! Watch that DHEA take a nose dive in a few months
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Yeah, I would love to have those results, too:-)
 
The Matrix said:
I would not get to greedy because some of the natural proBB have total testosterone of only 600. Give it time to let the cells respond at the tissue level. Id be happy with those results thats for sure !! Watch that DHEA take a nose dive in a few months
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I agree that his numbers are decent, and if he likes the way he feels he should leave it alone. He should not base his decision on the numbers that a natural proBB posts. Many of them have done steroids at one time or another, and quite a few have used herbal supplements that can wreak havoc on HPTA. Getting numbers into the upper range is not greedy. It's usually a decision based on the way a person feels.
 
colkurtz_spf said:
I agree that his numbers are decent, and if he likes the way he feels he should leave it alone. He should not base his decision on the numbers that a natural proBB posts. Many of them have done steroids at one time or another, and quite a few have used herbal supplements that can wreak havoc on HPTA. Getting numbers into the upper range is not greedy. It's usually a decision based on the way a person feels.
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I'm going to get it a little higher, just taking it slow. I want enough to keep E2 around 30. Looking back, that's where I feel best.

I am also working on adrenals... just started low dose HC (5-10mg/day). I expect this will help the way I feel in a month or so.
 
LeanGuy said:
Yeah, you are right Shawn... it's only been 4 weeks. I did "feel" it more at the beginning, maybe I just need small increases in dose as the vial loses potency. Potency loss is probably more noticeable with monotherapy.
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Your vial is not losing potency. I've used HCG 60 days out. You're just not feeling the initial bump. I feel good when I maintain FT over 200. I'm sure everyone is different. My suggestion is to give it some time. Maybe you need more sleep. You can always increase your dose if necessary.
 
LeanGuy said:
I'm going to get it a little higher, just taking it slow. I want enough to keep E2 around 30. Looking back, that's where I feel best.

I am also working on adrenals... just started low dose HC (5-10mg/day). I expect this will help the way I feel in a month or so.
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I'm sorry if I'm not familiar with your condition. Do you have high cortisol?
 
colkurtz_spf said:
I agree that his numbers are decent, and if he likes the way he feels he should leave it alone. He should not base his decision on the numbers that a natural proBB posts. Many of them have done steroids at one time or another, and quite a few have used herbal supplements that can wreak havoc on HPTA. Getting numbers into the upper range is not greedy. It's usually a decision based on the way a person feels.
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I have pulled numerous normal teenagers, 20 year old athletes non steroid or hormone influenced supplement. They are averageing 400-600 ng/dl in total testosterone. This goes along with the fact that or great grand faters T levels were 30-40% above averages of today's young 20. I am looking to get a non steroid athletes in high school to get a good model for a hormone profile.
 
The Matrix said:
I have pulled numerous normal teenagers, 20 year old athletes non steroid or hormone influenced supplement. They are averageing 400-600 ng/dl in total testosterone. This goes along with the fact that or great grand faters T levels were 30-40% above averages of today's young 20. I am looking to get a non steroid athletes in high school to get a good model for a hormone profile.
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You don't have to look that far back for higher T levels. Averages were 30% higher in the 1980s. I'm sure it's because of food and the environment. But it doesn't make sense to accept unhealthy or lower T levels because they are now the norm. The cumulative effect of low T over the years can't be that good. What quality of life will you be looking at when you reach my age?

Keep in mind that I'll be 51 next month - my baseline is 475, but I have tested as high as 600 off therapy. I wouldn't doubt that my baseline was in the mid 900s when I was young. I feel my old self at that level now.

It would be nice to see the government acknowledge this problem and try to resolve it. Unfortunately, in the immortal words of Dorothy from The Wizard of Oz, "wishing won't make it come true."
 
colkurtz_spf said:
How low is it, and how does it make you feel? I hope you don't mind me asking.
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On a workout day, it started low, rose and then dropped to zero (per saliva). It makes me feel anxious, sleepless and more inflammation than normal.

Invalid Link Removed
 
LeanGuy said:
Here are my 1st month's results from 250iu E3D... not bad but I'd like to be at the top of range and a little more E2. You guys were right, either underdosed or lost potency toward the end.

Testosterone, serum 678 ng/dL [241-827]
Testosterone, free (direct) 18.9 [8.7-25.1]
Estradiol, sensitive (labcorp) 21 [3-70]
DHEA-S 332 [120-520]
IGF-1 321 [115-307] ** freaking amazing since I sleep like crap

I'm going to talk it over with my doc, but he takes suggestions. What should be my next bump in dosing schedule?
Click to expand...

Those are solid levels from 250iu E3D. You may want to try 250iu EOD. Just a suggestion. Personally, it was successful for me.

LeanGuy said:
On a workout day, it started low, rose and then dropped to zero (per saliva). It makes me feel anxious, sleepless and more inflammation than normal.

Invalid Link Removed
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I plan on doing this (saliva cortisol test) in next few days. I'm glad I saw this because I was thinking working out would be a no-no. Which lab did you use? Have you tried anything like melatonin or 5-htp for sleep? I can relate to sleep problems.
 
thenxtgrt1 said:
Those are solid levels from 250iu E3D. You may want to try 250iu EOD. Just a suggestion. Personally, it was successful for me.
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yeah, lots of options. I'll talk it over with my doc.

thenxtgrt1 said:
I plan on doing this (saliva cortisol test) in next few days. I'm glad I saw this because I was thinking working out would be a no-no. Which lab did you use? Have you tried anything like melatonin or 5-htp for sleep? I can relate to sleep problems.
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This was from diagnos-techs. I'd recommend not working out, unless you've done it before that way. I've tried everything OTC for sleep. Currently I'm using lunesta + a sedating anti-histamine. The lunesta is too freaking expensive tho.
 
LeanGuy said:
yeah, lots of options. I'll talk it over with my doc.



This was from diagnos-techs. I'd recommend not working out, unless you've done it before that way. I've tried everything OTC for sleep. Currently I'm using lunesta + a sedating anti-histamine. The lunesta is too freaking expensive tho.
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Read the link I posted. EOD is probably a mistake. I always saw diminished results from it, and now i think I know why.
 
LeanGuy said:
yeah, lots of options. I'll talk it over with my doc.



This was from diagnos-techs. I'd recommend not working out, unless you've done it before that way. I've tried everything OTC for sleep. Currently I'm using lunesta + a sedating anti-histamine. The lunesta is too freaking expensive tho.
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Try some phenibut and ZMA.
 
colkurtz_spf said:
Read the link I posted. EOD is probably a mistake. I always saw diminished results from it, and now i think I know why.
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For now I'm just going to bump a little... 300iu E3D until I see my doc.

Phenibut used to work well, but not so much anymore.
 
colkurtz_spf said:
Try some phenibut and ZMA.
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I use 750 mg GABA, 5 mg melatonin and 3 ZMA.

Not only do I sleep like a rock - better than ambien - but I have no hangover and my recently tested mornng IGF-1 was over top of range.

Melatonin and GABA have been shown to increase IGF-1.
 
LeanGuy said:
On a workout day, it started low, rose and then dropped to zero (per saliva). It makes me feel anxious, sleepless and more inflammation than normal.

Invalid Link Removed
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LeanGuy, your rhythm looks pretty decent -- it's slightly shifted back (you should be peaking in the early morning). You may need a little cortisone bump at mid day. But your evening cortisol looks really good. Mine is highest at night, and lowest in the morning -- meaning I am upside down.
 
rick055 said:
I use 750 mg GABA, 5 mg melatonin and 3 ZMA.

Not only do I sleep like a rock - better than ambien - but I have no hangover and my recently tested mornng IGF-1 was over top of range.

Melatonin and GABA have been shown to increase IGF-1.
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Sounds like a good combo.
 
jinxie said:
LeanGuy, your rhythm looks pretty decent -- it's slightly shifted back (you should be peaking in the early morning). You may need a little cortisone bump at mid day. But your evening cortisol looks really good. Mine is highest at night, and lowest in the morning -- meaning I am upside down.
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Yeah, its better than being upside down... but cortisol too low at night causes hypoglycemia which leads to adrenaline release. I am often hungry at night, even though I eat a snack at bedtime.
 
LeanGuy said:
yeah, lots of options. I'll talk it over with my doc.



This was from diagnos-techs. I'd recommend not working out, unless you've done it before that way. I've tried everything OTC for sleep. Currently I'm using lunesta + a sedating anti-histamine. The lunesta is too freaking expensive tho.
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Interesting...a sedating anti-histamine. Is this prescription or otc? If you can pm source, I'd appreciate it.
 
LeanGuy said:
Yeah, its better than being upside down... but cortisol too low at night causes hypoglycemia which leads to adrenaline release. I am often hungry at night, even though I eat a snack at bedtime.
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Hmmm, I did not know it could be too low at night. You may want to try licorice extract at mid day, as this gives your cortisol staying power, and could give you a bump from afternoon till evening. I'm wary of suggesting cortisone in the evening, as it is often highly disruptive of sleep.

I tend to get hungry late in the evening as well. I eat fruit 1.5 hours before bed.

Good luck.
 
colkurtz_spf said:
Sounds like a good combo.
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GABA never did anything for me. I think there are issues with it passing the blood/brain barrier, so I once read. ZMA didn't do much either.

I've heard that phenibut is great, but a tolerance develops quickly. Another thing to consider is bacopia. I haven't tried it, but have read some good things.
 
jinxie said:
GABA never did anything for me. I think there are issues with it passing the blood/brain barrier, so I once read. ZMA didn't do much either.

I've heard that phenibut is great, but a tolerance develops quickly. Another thing to consider is bacopia. I haven't tried it, but have read some good things.
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Phenibut is far better than GABA. I've heard you can develop a tolerance to it, but I think it applies more to people who use it on a daily basis to control anxiety. I don't use it every night - only when I notice the quality of my sleep declining. I usually don't need it after a couple of weeks. The magnesium in ZMA has a soporific quality, but you need much larger doses to achieve sleep. One good product is Becalmed. It will also help with muscle aches/cramps and keep you regular too.
 
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