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?? Pct Help

ws26champny

New member
I am about to take a 10 week cycle of Test Enanthate .....2x a week....

I am 5'11 155pds..

What is a good pct for this..

I am looking into Clomid, Reversitol, 6-oxo...

Is that good enough>

and what should the routine look like/

Thank you...
 
might i make a suggestion? how about picking up the book "anabolic almanac" 2007 or 2008, there is lots of good info in there. the book costs anywhere from 40-90 bucks. you can get it for a good deal on amazon.
 
so you either a) havent' been working out much or b) don't have your diet nailed down that's why you are still 155 at 5'10 when you could easily be 185 after a year or so of eating right and working out assuming you don't have some physiological problem that prevents you from gaining.

the point is that if you are only 155, there is a good chance you don't have your diet or routine down which will make a cycle of steroids rather ineffective.

get your basics down, then jump on the aas train
 
I work out hard everyday...

I go as hard as my w.o partner who is juicing

I have about 7% bf and am basically shredded

My nutritionist friend said that about 90% of the people at my golds gym would ill to have my body...

6 pack and shredded
 
if your that shreaded, you are not eating like someone who is bulking should be eating. how many cals are you eting in a day? do you even know. the point that is trying to be made is, you can still do a lot before you even need to think about AAS. let us help you with that, then the other. not the cart before the horse.......did you ever hear the story about the father bull and the son bull?
 
I understand, I eat ALOT...

Very good diet...

Alot of lean meats...tuna, chicken, turkey, steak, veggies, fruit, almonds, PB, wheat bread...

I consume easily 3k a day....

Drink nothing but water, and they occasional Red Bull...

Supps are Animal pak, NO explode, ON whey, Chromium,
 
Is this good..

I Reversitol

Cycle Support by AI

Post Cycle Support by AI

6-oxo

and getting clomid or nolva reserch chem?
 
You need to add 250 to 500 cals a day to your diet for like a week at a time and see if you start going up in weight. Get that dialed in for a while and then move on to other variables in the puzzle.
 
i dont care how shredded u are, i would not "kill" to be 155lbs. I am 5'10 also and am 200lbs at about 6% right now. u are not ready for aas at that weight. u are obviously doing something wrong. figure out what that is, get to at least 180 and then cycle.
 
ws26champny said:
Is this good..

I Reversitol

Cycle Support by AI

Post Cycle Support by AI

6-oxo

and getting clomid or nolva reserch chem?
Click to expand...



Drop the 6-oxo and you should be set. It’s a steroidal AI that will eventually suppress natural T production. [fine to run during the cycle, but not PCT]

Something that will help increase the T response from the testes, and kick in your recovery faster would be Invalid Link Removed. [synergistic with the RES products]

-Pp
 
so the liquid nolva would be perfect also at 10 mg a day....how long

i am interested in sustain alpha...

info please
 
ws26champny said:
so the liquid nolva would be perfect also at 10 mg a day....how long

i am interested in sustain alpha...

info please
Click to expand...

Yes, liquid nolva at 10mg/day would be all you would need.

Invalid Link Removed has the 7,8-benzoflavone which is awesome stuff – blocks negative feedback at the hypothalamus thus allowing you to surge LH & FSH more than you normally would. [also synergistic with Toco-8].

-Pp
 
Primordial Perf said:
Drop the 6-oxo and you should be set. It’s a steroidal AI that will eventually suppress natural T production. [fine to run during the cycle, but not PCT]

Something that will help increase the T response from the testes, and kick in your recovery faster would be Invalid Link Removed. [synergistic with the RES products]

-Pp
Click to expand...
please inform me, cause i don't know. but i just read a little bit on Toco-8,, and i don't see how anything in there will help with my estro levels. i probably missed something. let me know, it looks good, but unless it contains an AI, i don't see how it should replace one......
 
lennoxchi said:
please inform me, cause i don't know. but i just read a little bit on Toco-8,, and i don't see how anything in there will help with my estro levels. i probably missed something. let me know, it looks good, but unless it contains an AI, i don't see how it should replace one......
Click to expand...

It’s not going to lower estrogens levels. It’s going to increase the LH & FSH pulse amplitude and increase the testes sensitivity to LH & FSH thus having a synergistic effect with virtually any testosterone booster.

-Pp
 
Primordial Perf said:
It’s not going to lower estrogens levels. It’s going to increase the LH & FSH pulse amplitude and increase the testes sensitivity to LH & FSH thus having a synergistic effect with virtually any testosterone booster.

-Pp
Click to expand...
i understand that part, what are you suggesting to use as an AI after the nolva. or are you saying it's not needed?
 
we're both on the same page here, bro. i was just wondering why you suggested dropping the 6-oxo. to a newbie that might be confusing. yes drop it for the first part of PCT (when you are using the SERM) but pick it up after the SERM usage is complete...........just trying to clarify, cause when i was newer than i am now, that S*** used to "corfuse" me
 
lennoxchi said:
we're both on the same page here, bro. i was just wondering why you suggested dropping the 6-oxo. to a newbie that might be confusing. yes drop it for the first part of PCT (when you are using the SERM) but pick it up after the SERM usage is complete...........just trying to clarify, cause when i was newer than i am now, that S*** used to "corfuse" me
Click to expand...

I don’t think 6-oxo should be used for PCT at all … simply because it is a steroid hormone that is offering no benefit. [Plus its a very poor AI anyway]

Check out a more detailed response here –


---------------------------------------
Here is a 6-oxo study showing a supposed increase in T and free T but no benefit in fat free mass, lean mass or total mass – or any indication of anabolic activity. [The increase in T and free T should have increased FFM over an 8 week period.]

Being that 6-oxo has a very similar structure to testosterone, It is likely that 6-oxo itself is causing a false positive. [being detected as T, and not really increasing T] Or, 6-oxo is really increasing T and offsetting testosterone from the anabolic receptor and preventing any sort of anabolic or androgenic benefits.

Here is a qoute direct from the study -

“By being chemically similar to testosterone it could interact with testosterone in a competitive fashion not only at the aromatase enzyme but also at the androgen receptor in muscles. Competition at the androgen receptor would decrease testosterone’s ability to bind to the receptor and stimulate muscle growth. This would explain the lack of increased muscle mass”

Invalid Link Removed

Theoretically, 6-oxo would decrease LH & FSH at the hypothalamus, but the study shows little effect on LH or FSH, presumably because 6-oxo is a weaker androgen/estrogen at the hypothalamus possibly offsetting T/E. However, for a guy in PCT who will have non-existent hormone levels to begin with he doesn’t want to further interfere with his HPTA by taking a synthetic steroid hormone such as 6-oxo – especially since its offering no benefit anyway.
--------------------------------------------------

-Pp
 
so you say dont use sustain alpha w/ nolva..

Can you get away w/ just the full rec stack, post cycle support, and i reversitol....
 
ws26champny said:
so you say dont use sustain alpha w/ nolva..

Can you get away w/ just the full rec stack, post cycle support, and i reversitol....
Click to expand...

Guys, sorry... I meant to say "You wouldnt need an AI after nolva"... [edited the post]

So, stack the nolva with the Sustain for 30 days and then your done.

If you really want to use an AI after nolva then you can use Sustain for this. [or some kind of mild resveratrol product]

-Pp
 
crazyfool405 said:
i believe that 7,8 benzoflavone is very very similar if not derived rom chrysin...???
Click to expand...

Chrysin and 7,8-benzoflavone are both flavones and are both usually derived from passiflora incarnata, but they do have slightly different actions in the body. [chrysin is known to inhibit 3b HSD and 17b HSD where as benzoflavone is not known to have this action]

-Pp
 
Primordial Perf said:
Chrysin and 7,8-benzoflavone are both flavones and are both usually derived from passiflora incarnata, but they do have slightly different actions in the body. [chrysin is known to inhibit 3b HSD and 17b HSD where as benzoflavone is not known to have this action]

-Pp
Click to expand...


so not anti aromatase properties just LH and FSH boosting,

i saw a few studies.... good work!!!
 
Primordial Perf said:
Guys, sorry... I meant to say "You wouldnt need an AI after nolva"... [edited the post]

So, stack the nolva with the Sustain for 30 days and then your done.

If you really want to use an AI after nolva then you can use Sustain for this. [or some kind of mild resveratrol product]

-Pp
Click to expand...
what about a product containing 6-bromo?
 
Primordial Perf said:
This claim sounds like marketing hype… I’d be very surprised if this was measured in-vivo with humans.

-Pp
Click to expand...

it has to do with the steric strain of the molecules,

i asked an organic chemist about beta bromo....

Thew alpha isomer since its stronger and has a better stability is more likely to convert,

heres what i iasked.

the chemical
androst-4-ene-3,17-dione, 6-bromo-, (6 beta)

also known as 6bromoandrostenedione, has been used in breast cancer therapy in a study in 1972. now its recently been used in the supplement industry and has had conflicting views.

being that the target hormone for this compound is 6-bromotestosterone, there is both an alpha and beta ring. the beta ring being less stable then the alpha ring seems to be less potent then the alpha

its been said that because of the steric strain of the bromine in that position because of how bulky it is leads to the androst-4-ene-3,17-dione, 6-bromo-, (6 beta) not being able to convert into its target hormone which will upregulate the hypothalmic pituiatary testicular axis. but if it did convert to its target hormone it would have a negative effect on the HPTA.

how does the steric strain on this molecule block it from converting to its target hormone?

this is the response:

The answer to your question is "it's all about shape". The body's functions are controlled by enyzmes. The process by which the starting chemical is converted to the target hormone is done by enzymes. Enzymes can be particular in the way they allow some molecules into their active region. If the shape of the molecule isn't right - it won't fit and the enzyme can't do its job. So that bulky bromine causes the rings in the molecule to adopt a particular structure. It's all about energy - the lower energy a molecule has - the more stable it is. So the bromine forces this chemical to exist in a more stable structure with respect to the shape of the molecule that will fit into the enzyme and allow it to do its job. It's like a large weight pulling down on one side of the molecule (steric strain) and no matter what the molecule does - it can't lift that weight and allow it to change its shape so it can fit in the enzyme and convert into the target hormone.
 
Stereochemistry of the functional group determines the mechanism of aromatase inhibition by 6-bromoandrostenedione.
Y Osawa,Y Osawa,M J Coon


* Abstract
* Coded Data (5)
* Publication Info
* Comments (0)

A selective inhibitor of aromatase (estrogen synthetase) would be a useful pharmacological tool with potential therapeutic application. We have found that 6 alpha-bromoandrostenedione (6 alpha-BrA) is a competitive inhibitor of human placental aromatase with respect to androstenedione, with an apparent Ki of 3.4 nM, while 6 beta-BrA is a mechanism-based irreversible inhibitor with an apparent Ki of 0.8 microM and a kinact of 0.025 min-1. Aromatase activity was measured by tritium release into water from the 1 beta position of [1(-3)H,4(-14)C]androstenedione in reaction mixtures containing NADPH and the aromatase. Time-dependent inhibition was assessed by preincubation of inhibitors with either the 900 X g placental pellet or placental microsomes in the presence of NADPH. Aliquots were taken at intervals, diluted, and assayed for aromatase activity with androstenedione and additional NADPH. The time-dependent inhibition by 6 beta-BrA was dependent on the concentration of this compound and the presence of NADPH, while the addition of excess substrate in the preincubation mixture hindered the inactivation. Both epimers were ineffective in inhibiting rabbit liver microsomal drug-metabolizing activities in a competitive or time-dependent manner. This indicates a high selectivity of 6-BrA inhibition among P-450 cytochromes. These and other 6-substituted androgens may be useful probes into the nature of the active site and mechanism of action of aromatase.

Estrogen synthesis in human breast tumor and its inhibition by testololactone and bromoandrostenedione.
Dao TL.

A total of 53 tumors have been examined for estrogen synthesis from androstenedione and assayed for estradiol receptors. It was found that of the 40 tumors that metabolized androstenedione to estrogens, 17 tumors were estradiol receptor negative and 23 tumors were estradiol receptor positive. Of the 13 tumors that did not synthesize estrogens, 7 tumors were receptor negative and 6 tumors were receptor positive. No correlation was found between the ability of the tumor to synthesize estrogens and the presence or absence of estradiol receptors. The inhibition of aromatase enzyme in human breast tumors by delta 1-testololactone, testololactone, and 6 alpha- and 6 beta-bromoandrostenedione was investigated. Estrone and estradiol synthesis from androstenedione was reduced in five tumor incubations by the presence of 0.2 mM delta 1-testololactone and testololactone, 6 alpha- and 6 beta-bromoandrostenedione (2.0 microM) were also shown to block estrogen synthesis in 5 tumors. Furthermore, Lineweaver-Burk plots revealed that all four compounds were competitive inhibitors of androstenedione aromatization. An apparent Km of the aromatase enzyme for androstenedione of 0.08 microM and a Vmax of 23 pmol of estrone synthesized per g tumor per hr were determined for one human breast tumor specimen. The use of an aromatase inhibitor such as delta 1-testololactone in the treatment of breast cancer should be reconsidered. Data from one patient with advanced cancer of the breast, responding to previous oophorectomy and adrenalectomy and treated with large doses of delta 1-testololactone, are presented to illustrate the significance of successful treatment by scientific approaches.
 
6bromoandrostenedione is potentially just as inhibitory at the hypothalamus as 6-bromotestosterone. [just as Adione can be just as suppressive as T]

There is no reason why an androgenic steroid such as 6-bromo would not cause direct negative feedback (despite its ability to boost LH & FSH through reducing estrogen)

Boosting LH & FSH by overly-suppressing estrogen causes problems… and will eventually lead to low libido, erectile dysfunction, lipid wreckage, and desensitized leydigs.

Steroidial AI’s are bad news for PCT.


-Pp
 
Primordial Perf said:
6bromoandrostenedione is potentially just as inhibitory at the hypothalamus as 6-bromotestosterone. [just as Adione can be just as suppressive as T]

There is no reason why an androgenic steroid such as 6-bromo would not cause direct negative feedback (despite its ability to boost LH & FSH through reducing estrogen)

Boosting LH & FSH by overly-suppressing estrogen causes problems… and will eventually lead to low libido, erectile dysfunction, lipid wreckage, and desensitized leydigs.

Steroidial AI’s are bad news for PCT.




-Pp
Click to expand...

yet aromasin is great,

and i think theres one post with you stating formestane, .....

ITS ALL ABOUT DOSING,
 
Dude please wait to you are closer to 200lbs before starting your first cycle.I'm sure you have alot more natural growth left.
 
Is it even possible to gain weight on a cycle when he can barely maintain without?
 
you're 5'11", 155lbs?

If you dont mind me asking, how old are you? It doesnt sound like you've even hit your natural hormonal peak (18ish - 21) quite yet. If that is the case, i wouldn't recommend anything that plays with your hormones, let alone steroids.
 
im 24 yrs old...work out everyday....have an extremely clean and healthy diet...
I work out 2hrs everyday w/ at least 25 min of cardio...which is holding my weight down...
 
Why would you want to raise SHBG? Wouldn't that lessen free test?
 
AZMIDLYF said:
Why would you want to raise SHBG? Wouldn't that lessen free test?
Click to expand...

yea , but i saw Dr D saying it on BB.com. he said its one of those things,

but now that i recall i believe SERMs raise SHBG as well. maybe its a function of how they work to increase test, i have no idea.:sad:
 
Posted by: Dr.D Aug 14 2007, 06:08 PM

QUOTE(IronFist @ Aug 13 2007, 10:30 PM) *

Didn't realize this was a t-nation.com-type forum, "bro."


You do need to back up guy, because the advise you gave him was only half true at best. Who says you don't want a little anti-androgen in PCT? Not me! That raises test even faster and more directly than an anti-e does, plus I highly suggest against 6-Oxo! 6-Oxo probably binds AR's too, or else there would have been recomp noted in it's university study. Even the author of that study suggested it's likely competing with test for receptors or there would have been characteristic results expected from the blood parameters seen. There were not, no improvements noted at all. Taking 6/day (600mg) was also quite detrimental to LH levels and raised DHT very high, BAD NEWS IN PCT! If you use it, take 1 or 2 max, seriously.

Please don't try to take over my forum unless you give more sound and objective advise next time.

Posted by: Dr.D Aug 14 2007, 06:22 PM

QUOTE(Infernus @ Aug 12 2007, 11:53 AM) *
... The ingredients on my bottle of Formadrol for 1 capsule is:
20mg
1,4,6-etioallocholan-dione 4.5mg
Diadzein 20mg

So is what I have planned up fine or is there something in Formadrol that shouldn't be taken at the same time as Mass FX?


This is an odd product. Are you sure it's not a standalone anabolic supp? If it is designed for PCT, it should not contain a pure androgen like 3a-Hydroxyetioallocholan-17-one and the other two ingredients seem somewhat redundant as they both possess significant anti-a activity. These three ingredients seem to cancel each other out. It may not be strongly suppressive but I would still not use it, at least not daily, in PCT.

MFX elevates SHBG levels and is perfect for PCT. It also contains sterols that are shown to raise gonadotropin and subsequent testosterone levels too. I would not dream of PCTing without it, it makes it so much nicer to deal with! If you've every tried it in PCT, you know what I mean. thumbsup.gif
 
crazyfool405 said:
worked for me, and some people swear by it.

i believe Dr D said that he likes a little anti androgen in his PCT, a thread on BB.com he mentioned something like that , along with raising SHBG
Click to expand...

Sure, exemestane works great for reducing estrogen… but nobody needs this for PCT unless they have some real high estrogen level from lingering AAS or are running hCG.

-Pp
 
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