Havoc OTC PCT Question.

[benmoore]

Soon to be running my first ever PH cycle:
Havoc at 20/30/30/40 - fairly standard =]
Perfect Cycle (liver support) 6/6/6/6

Now as for my PCT my current plan is:

6-oxo 500/500/400/300
Tribex 4/4/3/2
Resveratrol 1200/1200/900/600

I was considering perhaps another natural test booster but am unsure as to which one to have a go with.

My main concern is shutting down/not restarting fully.

Please share with me your opinions on any aspect of this planned cycle/pct.

Thank you!

 

[dsade]

I don't think tribex is your best choice for test boosters. I would go with a combo of Paravol or DTH (both with high quality icariin) with Nutra's new Divanex caps.

 

[benmoore]

I don't think tribex is your best choice for test boosters. I would go with a combo of Paravol or DTH (both with high quality icariin) with Nutra's new Divanex caps.

Can't really get hold of Nutras Divanex...

But I can get hold of Designer Supplements Activate, 120 caps - Another Divanil product.

The Tribex has already been ordered anyway... perhaps I could add something to it? Perhaps a specific herbal extract rather then ordering in some paravol too?

EDIT: Also how the hell is SHBG suppression/competition going to raise by bodies PRODUCTION?

 

[Trauma1]

I would run your 6-oxo as follows:

Week 1: 300

Week: 2: 400

Week: 3: 500

Week: 4: 400

Week: 5: 300

Coming off of havoc your estrogen levels will already be slightly modulated. You don't want to completely kill all your estro right off that bat in pct. It can cause rebound issues when you suddenly stop the A.I. This is why i suggest to gradually ramp up, then down the A.I. This will give your body the time to adjust further preventing potential rebound issues.

I also agree that tribex probably isn't the best option either. I'm with dsade on suggesting the DTH. Are you going to be running some kind of anti-cort product?

Also, i would DEFINITELY add creatine into the mix for your pct. It will help immensely in maintenance of your strength and newly acquired gains.

 

[benmoore]

I would run your 6-oxo as follows:

Week 1: 300

Week: 2: 400

Week: 3: 500

Week: 4: 400

Week: 5: 300

Coming off of havoc your estrogen levels will already be slightly modulated. You don't want to completely kill all your estro right off that bat in pct. It can cause rebound issues when you suddenly stop the A.I. This is why i suggest to gradually ramp up, then down the A.I. This will give your body the time to adjust further preventing potential rebound issues.

I also agree that tribex probably isn't the best option either. I'm with dsade on suggesting the DTH. Are you going to be running some kind of anti-cort product?

Also, i would DEFINITELY add creatine into the mix for your pct. It will help immensely in maintenance of your strength and newly acquired gains.

Oh of course creatine is a no brainer for the PCT

Considering extending my liver/kidney support at a reduced dose throughout my PCT however.

As for the 6-oxo: 5 caps is actually below their max dose... that was my attempt at not trying to kill of my estrogen completely. I will definatly have a think about this method.

Anti cort sounds a good idea. Might look into 11-oxo or something... unless someone can suggest a good herbal?

Can you suggest another test boost to compliment the tribex then?

EDIT: Also decided to dump in ZMA to the PCT.

 

[Trauma1]

Oh of course creatine is a no brainer for the PCT

Considering extending my liver/kidney support at a reduced dose throughout my PCT however.

As for the 6-oxo: 5 caps is actually below their max dose... that was my attempt at not trying to kill of my estrogen completely. I will definatly have a think about this method.

Anti cort sounds a good idea. Might look into 11-oxo or something... unless someone can suggest a good herbal?

Can you suggest another test boost to compliment the tribex then?

EDIT: Also decided to dump in ZMA to the PCT.

For anti-cort either try either "Lean Xtreme" by Designer supplements, or "Retain 2" by Anabolic Extreme.

I know that 6-oxo suggests a higher dose, but based on feedback from users what i've recommended seems to be on par with the best overall recovery.

I like DTH for a test booster. Also look into Anabolic Innovations "Stoked".

I agree with continuing your support supplements throughout pct at a reduced dose. Anabolic Innovations also makes a great product called "Life Support". It has reduced dosing on many of those support supps and would fit in perfectly.

 

[benmoore]

For anti-cort either try either "Lean Xtreme" by Designer supplements, or "Retain 2" by Anabolic Extreme.

I know that 6-oxo suggests a higher dose, but based on feedback from users what i've recommended seems to be on par with the best overall recovery.

I like DTH for a test booster. Also look into Anabolic Innovations "Stoked".

I agree with continuing your support supplements throughout pct at a reduced dose. Anabolic Innovations also makes a great product called "Life Support". It has reduced dosing on many of those support supps and would fit in perfectly.

I've had difficulty looking for some Anabolic Innovations products in the UK however (even online). Also Can't find this "DTH" product - google keeps on wanting to turn it into "DHT" haha.

I think I've seen those cort controllers here however... will start reading up.

As an RPN rep can I ask what would be typical gains on this product (Havoc)? Keep in mind that I've already purchased a bottle so you don't have to sell it to me :lol:

 

[Trauma1]

I've had difficulty looking for some Anabolic Innovations products in the UK however (even online). Also Can't find this "DTH" product - google keeps on wanting to turn it into "DHT" haha.

I think I've seen those cort controllers here however... will start reading up.

As an RPN rep can I ask what would be typical gains on this product (Havoc)? Keep in mind that I've already purchased a bottle so you don't have to sell it to me :lol:

Lol, sorry man......DTH is "Diesel Test Hardcore" by Get Diesel Nutrition. Check it out on nutraplanet.com. You can find Anabolic Innovations products there as well.


The typical gains seen with havoc range from 8-12lbs overall. If seen more, and i've seen less. However, that number seems to be the median average overall.

I would also suggest looking into our "Gut Health" product. It's a great addition to any cycle. Check out the write-up posted in this section at the top. If you have any questions, i'll be glad to answer them for you.

 

[benmoore]

Lol, sorry man......DTH is "Diesel Test Hardcore" by Get Diesel Nutrition. Check it out on nutraplanet.com. You can find Anabolic Innovations products there as well.


The typical gains seen with havoc range from 8-12lbs overall. If seen more, and i've seen less. However, that number seems to be the median average overall.

I would also suggest looking into our "Gut Health" product. It's a great addition to any cycle. Check out the write-up posted in this section at the top. If you have any questions, i'll be glad to answer them for you.

How would a fenugreek extract fare when stacked with my tribulus?

WHY choose the DTH?

I see a lot of people reccomending some form of SHBG inhibitors/suppressors such as longifolia jack, avena sativa and nettle root extract. Why would suppression/inhibition of SHBG encourage my bodies production of testosterone. From my knowledge it simply will free more of the existing testosterone?

 

[dsade]

Free test is biologically active. combined with increasing natural test production, net result is an amplification in free test levels sooner helping to preserve your gains and get you back to normal sooner.

 

[Trauma1]

How would a fenugreek extract fare when stacked with my tribulus?

WHY choose the DTH?

I see a lot of people reccomending some form of SHBG inhibitors/suppressors such as longifolia jack, avena sativa and nettle root extract. Why would suppression/inhibition of SHBG encourage my bodies production of testosterone. From my knowledge it simply will free more of the existing testosterone?

By inhibiting SHBG you're increasing the amount of "Free" testoterone available. This does not increase the "Total" amount of circulating testosterone, however it's allowing a larger fraction of what you have cirrculating to be able to elicit biological effects (I.E. anabolism.) This occurs due to it being able to actively interact with androgen receptors. When SHBG or Albumin is attached to the testosterone molecule, it's biologically inactive.

So in effect, inhibiting SHBG won't necessarily increase your total overall test, but it will increase the amount of test that is able to elicit anabolic effects. I wouldn't start a product of this nature until the 2nd or 3rd week of PCT, and i probably would run it from week 3 to week 6. Your total test levels will be lowered in the beginning of pct anyway. It's best to add this type of product in once your test is beginning to rebound. The most important goal in the beginning of a PCT is stimulating your HPTA into upregulating your total test quickly.

DTH just has had a very good success rate in a havoc PCT through feedback obtained.

Fenugreek is a good product in my eyes. I've used it in prior PCT's with much success.

 

[benmoore]

By inhibiting SHBG you're increasing the amount of "Free" testoterone available. This does not increase the "Total" amount of circulating testosterone, however it's allowing a larger fraction of what you have cirrculating to be able to elicit biological effects (I.E. anabolism.) This occurs due to it being able to actively interact with androgen receptors. When SHBG or Albumin is attached to the testosterone molecule, it's biologically inactive.

So in effect, inhibiting SHBG won't necessarily increase your total overall test, but it will increase the amount of test that is able to elicit anabolic effects. I wouldn't start a product of this nature until the 2nd or 3rd week of PCT, and i probably would run it from week 3 to week 6. Your total test levels will be lowered in the beginning of pct anyway. It's best to add this type of product in once your test is beginning to rebound. The most important goal in the beginning of a PCT is stimulating your HPTA into upregulating your total test quickly.

DTH just has had a very good success rate in a havoc PCT through feedback obtained.

Fenugreek is a good product in my eyes. I've used it in prior PCT's with much success.

Aye this is pretty much my thinking... my main concern is ensuring that my HPTA gets fired up again.
High dose tribulus, fenugreek and ZMA would be enough to stimulate this system?

I had already purchased the tribex you see and would rather not purchase yet another tribulus contaning product haha.

I will also look into a SHBG product soon but my primary concern is the HPTA stim.

EDIT: WOAH! Just been doing some reading up on fenugreek and there is very, very little evidence of increased testosterone. Unless somebody can give me some studies I am really not so sure about including this product :|

Longifolia Jak is looking more promising... opinions on this as a HPTA stim?

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Seems to kick the gonads back into production. Sounds like it would be a perfect PCT herb!

Now really wishing I had purchased some Alpha Male by Biotest instead!

Although adding a dose of tongkat ali may require some extra dhea...?

Proposed PCT:

Estrogen
6-oxo 500/500/400/300
resveratrol 1200/1200/900/900

Testosterone
Tribex 4/4/3/2
ZMA 3/3/3/3
Tongkat Ali 50:1 extract 1600/1600/1200/800

Cortisol
DHEA 150/150/100/50
11-oxo 5/5/4/3

Liver
Perfect Cycle Liver Support 3/3/3/3

 

[tanboy75019]

It looks like some advice has already gone out for PCT for another Ben who tried Havoc.

Basically, I'm looking for advice on an EXIT strategy from steroids. I gave it a run, saw some good gains, but I think I'll stick with natural methods. Now I just need to know a safe way out and a road to equilibrium.

I read an OTC PCT guide on this site by dmangiarelli, who is currently incapicitated. Trama1, you seem to know what you are talking about so I'll pose my questions here.

Let me describe what I have right now. I've been taking a stack of Epithin E (which, I understand is basically Havoc - 2a,3a-epithio-17a-methyl-5a-androstan-17b-ol) and Tokkyo Test (androsta-1-ene-3b-ol, 1-one) for a few weeks and am getting near the end of this cycle.

I picked up Lean Extreme, ZMA, 6-oxo, and Indole-3-Carbinol and have those on hand. My rep also sold me (maybe oversold me?) something from ALR industries called "Restore" "Male Optimization matrix" which may or may not be junk.

At any rate, I am wanting to see if you would recommend a PCT for the Epithin+Tokkyo Test stack and a graceful exit strategy.

In one post on this site, they recommended I3C, ZMA and the 6-oxo for Havoc.

What combination would you recommend (and is there anything else I should pick up)? How many weeks, and what would I take per week? Something I've heard mentioned is a product called "Post Cycle Support", but I have not picked that up yet.


Thanks in advance, Hopefully this isn't the same exact question BenMoore had asked.

- Ben -

 

[Gtarzan81]

DTH is a very good one. I've tried many test boosters, and the only thing that compares if igf-2 by app nut.
I do hear great thing about Activate Extreme though. have to find out for myself in the future.

Also, T1's 6-oxo idea was pretty brilliant.

 

[Trauma1]

DTH is a very good one. I've tried many test boosters, and the only thing that compares if igf-2 by app nut.
I do hear great thing about Activate Extreme though. have to find out for myself in the future.

Also, T1's 6-oxo idea was pretty brilliant.

Thanks Gt.

 

[Orangepeel]

are SERM's and AI's not allowed tobe mentioned on this site? Im not sure if I would want to use somthing like Havoc without them for a pct, or during the cycle.