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Toremifene (fareston) - for Dr.D and others

Im a true believer in Torm now. For PCT nothing's come close for me.
But I noticed that for gyno it didnt seem as clear cut of a winner as it did with PCT. I had some minor pre-gyno droopage, and the Torm while doing a great job at kicking in my HPTA (and making me into Mr. Sensitive I might add) didnt seem to quell the pre-gyno. I took one 20mg dose of nolva, and it went away. (for a few days at least.)
I almost sold my nolva stash until I realized that. Then I decided that nolva might have some merits to it.

On the other hand, some letro, or arimidex might be able to take care of that just as well. Wich would mean, that an emergancy AI on hand in case of gyno along w/ Torm for PCT would be all you need and nolva would be a thing of the past. I tried to tell some NPC guy about toremifene, but I dont think I convinced him.

As more people begin to see how well it works, it will catch on. Thing is, alot of competetive bodybuilders are guys who hardly ever come off AAS at all. Or when they do it's just with a replacement sized dose of test. So it might take awhile to get the word out, but at least WE know about it.
 
DR.D said:
It would so replace Nolva if people really found out about it.
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Did you get moody on this stuff at all? I usually dont get too bad on clomid and nolva, but lately I have been going through some lady troubles and it seems to be getting to me a little more than normal. I guessing because my hormones are pretty much all over the place right now and trying to get back to homeostasis. In any case the boys are back with sperm production up and hangin low and full within 2 days of 120mg ED. I dropped down to 90mg ED for the past week and will go down to 60mg next week. Hopefully I'll be done with this PCT a little early, but I might drag out low doses like 30-45mg for a 4th week just to make sure.
 
Sky, I know your question wasnt addressed to me, but I just wanted to say that I was going through alot of lady problems when I used torm for PCT as well. And it made me VERY sensitive. I mean, really intense. Kind of like a low dose of LSD minus the laughing and hallucinating, and lack of coordination. (Cough, cough, I mean.......so Ive heard.....cough, cough.) It was so intense that I cant even say that I hated it. Saome of the things I felt were so deep and peculiar that even though it sometimes manifested in some obscure permutation of sadness, it kind of made me feel more alive. I wouldnt want to be that emotional all the time though.

I dont think many that I've talked to experienced the "weepiness" quite to the degree that I did with torm, (at least they didnt admit to it) but most of them did mention having that to some degree. I think that woman problems are the synergystic catalyst.
 
Sky9 said:
Did you get moody on this stuff at all? I usually dont get too bad on clomid and nolva, but lately I have been going through some lady troubles and it seems to be getting to me a little more than normal. I guessing because my hormones are pretty much all over the place right now and trying to get back to homeostasis. In any case the boys are back with sperm production up and hangin low and full within 2 days of 120mg ED. I dropped down to 90mg ED for the past week and will go down to 60mg next week. Hopefully I'll be done with this post cycle therapy a little early, but I might drag out low doses like 30-45mg for a 4th week just to make sure.
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Just like Uni said, it seems to make me more emotionally liable specifically with woman issues. The girls noticed I was on PCT, not the guys. It was still cleaner than Clomid, but yes, it can be an issue. Once I dropped to 30mg/d, it was no longer a problem. If you drop to 30mg for wks 3 and 4 that would help. It's strong stuff!
 
Thanks guys I did drop my doses down to 60 last nite in an attempt to cool my stuff down. Nolva never affected me like this, clomid did to some extent, but neither was as effective for PCT. So I guess just like anything, you take the good with the bad.
 
Dr.D, what is the effectiveness of Raloxifene vs. Toremifene vs. Nolvadex? Torm sounds great, but it's a little rich for my blood. Ralox is available at a more reasonable price, and Nolva is of course cheap.
 
jrkarp said:
Dr.D, what is the effectiveness of Raloxifene vs. Toremifene vs. Nolvadex? Torm sounds great, but it's a little rich for my blood. Ralox is available at a more reasonable price, and Nolva is of course cheap.
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I like Ral, but orally, it's very weak. It takes me 240mg/d for good PCT effects, and it starts slow too. The Tor is expensive, but if you can do the first wk with it, you could finish with something like Nolva and still have great results probably for fairly cheap. You should try it at least once.
 
I have ordered some for my pct which is about 4 weeks away. This question is directed to Dr. D since he seems to have the most knowledge of the product. After a 12 weeker of cyp, fina and I am adding clen towards the end and clen will part part of my pct along with Toremifene. What else, if anything should be added. I already have hcg, nolva and clomid on hand, but this product really has me interested, especially if it brings the boys back so quick.
 
shanerips said:
I have ordered some for my post cycle therapy which is about 4 weeks away. This question is directed to Dr. D since he seems to have the most knowledge of the product. After a 12 weeker of cyp, fina and I am adding clen towards the end and clen will part part of my post cycle therapy along with Toremifene. What else, if anything should be added. I already have hcg, nolva and clomid on hand, but this product really has me interested, especially if it brings the boys back so quick.
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I'd add some fenugreek or trib for the first few wks of PCT too. If you wanna get fancy, you can add some DHEA also (but libido should return fast anyway with tor). If you neglect the DHEA, use some other anti-cort like Lean Xtreme. You should have great results. :thumbsup:
 
At the risk of being flamed my first time posting on here, I will try and make this question as intelligent as possible.

With the growing popularity of Toremifene, would anyone recommend using it rather than Nolva for a post superdrol post cycle therapy. Assuming a a 3 week cycle at 10/20/30 or 10/20/20. And if you would, what dosages would you use.

Also, is the PCT that is recommended in Superdrol for Dummies still thought to be a good protocol to follow.
 
f18jock said:
At the risk of being flamed my first time posting on here, I will try and make this question as intelligent as possible.

With the growing popularity of Toremifene, would anyone recommend using it rather than Nolva for a post superdrol post cycle therapy. Assuming a a 3 week cycle at 10/20/30 or 10/20/20. And if you would, what dosages would you use.

Also, is the post cycle therapy that is recommended in Superdrol for Dummies still thought to be a good protocol to follow.
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I never did recommend Nolva for sd in the first place. I hope people keep remembering how much I've always hated Nolva and don't try to attach my name to that protocol. Also, I have no affiliation with the sd for dummies thread and was never consulted by the writer, so I don't endorse any his conclusions though our opinions may overlap in places. I suggest Clomid or tor for sure in an sd PCT (or any such non-aromatizable, oral only cycle). A 2-3wk PCT protocol is all that would be required for such a mild cycle. Like 100,50,25 for Clomid or 60,45,30 for tor, but those are basic doses that can vary up or down based on your personal response. These doses are safe in that they will work for most guys, even if it's a slight overkill in some cases.
 
Dr. D,

Thx for the response. Wasn't trying to attach your name to the SD for Dummies thread, just trying to get other's opinions on that particular protocol.

I know your a big fan of DHEA.. How or would you add that to a Tor PCT, and any other goodies you would add?
 
Yo D, what do you think about DHEA in some injectable preparations? For instance I know of some UG Sten blends with Test and 50mg of DHEA. Curious as to what you think about DHEA on cycle. Talk to me babycakes.
 
Ubiquitous said:
Yo D, what do you think about DHEA in some injectable preparations? For instance I know of some UG Sten blends with Test and 50mg of DHEA. Curious as to what you think about DHEA on cycle. Talk to me babycakes.
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I think it's a great idea. DHEA and 5-AD tend to enhance the effects of other hormones taken simultaneously though anti-cort and receptor up-reg routes rather than providing direct anabolism. I'm all about synergy so that makes sense to me! The only reason I usually don't employ DHEA on cycle is because it's so androgenic and that can cause skin issues if I'm already on test or some other strong androgen. Sten is basically just a more androgenic version of Sus with the added fat burning, immune boosting and test enhancing properties of DHEA. I'm not sure what it costs, but I bet it's much cheaper that Sus from most sources.
 
Ubiquitous said:
after 5 days of Toremefine, I was getting busy with my woman like a champion all over again.

7 month cycle btw. Ubi like.
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niiiiiice...
what dosing schedule are u following?using anything else for pct?
im gonna pick up a few bottles of this stuff asap

any benefit from dosing that at a specific time of day or night?

very excited to not have to use nolv/clom let me tell ya!wow!f#$@ clomid!

and dr d why do u think the torm has such a great effect for pct but not as good as nolv perhaps for gyno?

also,what is current recomendations for fenugreek?any benefit from dosing that at a specific time of day or night?

thanks
 
Dr. D recommends fen at night. When I get to 6 caps - I divide it up. I take 3 with a pre-WO meal.
 
juggernaut333 said:
... dr d why do u think the torm has such a great effect for post cycle therapy but not as good as nolv perhaps for gyno?
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I'm not totally sure. These things are not well understood and I have no special insights in this case as of now. Tor possesses interesting structural features of both Nolva and Clomid though. It probably has to do with intrinsic activity at estrogen receptors. It requires a higher dose that Nolva to be effective, so affinity/potency is not the real issue. Plus, it's metabolite profile is different. Qualitatively, it's just the best though no doubt about it, for whatever reason.
 
jmh80 said:
Dr. D recommends fen at night. When I get to 6 caps - I divide it up. I take 3 with a pre-WO meal.
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What's up J! ALR started putting a fen extract in one of his pre-w/o drinks too, and I can see where it would posses post-w/o benefits as well, but for a different reason than it's PCT effects. That's more related to an amino acid it contains rather than it's sterol components.
 
oswizzle said:
what is the correst dosage for running the Torm if ur using it with Rebound Reloaded...can anyone chime in please
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I'd still use pretty much the same protocol up front, but maybe start cutting the doses of Tor a few wks earlier if the combo proves too strong.

Like 120 (first few days) then 90-60,60-30,30,30-15
 
I know the rules but I sure wish there was some way to find proven sources for serms and "stuff"... I only found 1 site that is a chemical research company that has serms at what seems reasonable prices but dont know if they are legit.. owell
 
also correct me if im wrong but if you get liquid torem, you just drink it? ie extract desired dose and down it goes, comes 60mg/ml so drink 10-20mg per day?
 
NAS said:
also correct me if im wrong but if you get liquid torem, you just drink it? ie extract desired dose and down it goes, comes 60mg/ml so drink 10-20mg per day?
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Check your math. You're going to consume enough ML to get the desired MG dose. For example, you would consume 2ml to get 120mg dose.

You can put a small amount of water/juice in a cup, add your product and down it quickly like cheap hard liquor.
 
I know this is an old thread....I did a search to find it.....I was hoping someone had updated info on this stuff

I just got my PCT order in from a well known research company.....they gave me toremifene instead of nolva.....i wanted to use clomid for PCT and use nolva during if needed

My question is regarding toremifene vs nolva for gyno.....i know some people says on paper it looks good but i was wondering if anyone had personal experience with it treating gyno......just wanna know if i should send it back....thx
 
Well, from a purely experiential perspective..... I have not found Torm to be as effective for gyno as Nolva. (Better yet would be a non-steroidal AI like anastrozole (arimidex) or letrozole. The draw back to those being the increase of aromatase enzymes with prolonged use, wich can sometimes cause some unwanted estrogen rebound upon cessation. For this reason alone one might prefer nolva for gyno since it seems to work almost as well as the non steroidal AI's and doesn't seem to have any appreciable rebound effect.

That being said, when it comes to pure PCT effectiveness, no other SERM out there has impressed me like Toremifene. It just seemed to work so much faster for me than clomid or nolva. Or even clomid AND nolva together. But the absolute BEST PCT effect I've experienced would have to be a combo of Toremifene with a STEROIDAL AI. (exemestane, or ATD.) As an INVERSE taper. Starting with a high end dose of the Torm and a minimal dose of the non steroidal AI, and increasing the dose of the AI while tapering the Torm out. Some people like Formastane instead of exemestane or ATD for that purpose but I've not used it in that particular context so I can't vouch.

The steroidal AI's are weaker than the non steroidal, but they are sort of like a free lunch. They permanently bind to the aromatase enzyme instead of wiping out massive numbers of them and subsequently causing an increase in aromatase. I postulate that some cases of so called "delayed on-set gyno", were a result of abrupt cessation of powerful non steroidal AI's post cycle.

Nolva is good for when you want to keep things simple (and cheap). It works fairly well in just about any context. If you want the best possible scenario in both ON cycle gyno protection AND the most effective PCT humanly possible, then you will need to get more than one type.

Hope that helps. Good luck man.
 
Unicron,
I couldn't have asked for a more professional, well thought out response. Thank you. With that being said, I'll keep the Tor and run it for PCT. I hadn't considered this until I read your response. I'll save my clomid for later. Don't have access to a steroidal AI so I can't mimic your inverse taper. I've got Arimidex to run during cycle as I can't afford to carry around water in my line of work. Once again thanks for the advice.
 
Happy to be of help.
BTW, ATD is OTC. (hah, lot of acronyms in that sentence.)
It's the ingredient in the supplement Rebound xt, among others. It's not hard to get at all. No script necessary. What ever you end up deciding to do, my best wishes for your success. Cheers.
 
Can it be used with clomid? For example, on a 16 week cycle I may want to do 1 1/2 - 2 months PCT. Could 1st month be torm and transition to clomid for 2nd? I saw this technique earlier in the thread but they were using Nolva. Thanks
 
UnicronSpawn said:
Well, from a purely experiential perspective..... I have not found Torm to be as effective for gyno as Nolva. (Better yet would be a non-steroidal AI like anastrozole (arimidex) or letrozole. The draw back to those being the increase of aromatase enzymes with prolonged use, wich can sometimes cause some unwanted estrogen rebound upon cessation. For this reason alone one might prefer nolva for gyno since it seems to work almost as well as the non steroidal AI's and doesn't seem to have any appreciable rebound effect.

That being said, when it comes to pure PCT effectiveness, no other SERM out there has impressed me like Toremifene. It just seemed to work so much faster for me than clomid or nolva. Or even clomid AND nolva together. But the absolute BEST PCT effect I've experienced would have to be a combo of Toremifene with a STEROIDAL AI. (exemestane, or ATD.) As an INVERSE taper. Starting with a high end dose of the Torm and a minimal dose of the non steroidal AI, and increasing the dose of the AI while tapering the Torm out. Some people like Formastane instead of exemestane or ATD for that purpose but I've not used it in that particular context so I can't vouch.

The steroidal AI's are weaker than the non steroidal, but they are sort of like a free lunch. They permanently bind to the aromatase enzyme instead of wiping out massive numbers of them and subsequently causing an increase in aromatase. I postulate that some cases of so called "delayed on-set gyno", were a result of abrupt cessation of powerful non steroidal AI's post cycle.

Nolva is good for when you want to keep things simple (and cheap). It works fairly well in just about any context. If you want the best possible scenario in both ON cycle gyno protection AND the most effective PCT humanly possible, then you will need to get more than one type.

Hope that helps. Good luck man.
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I'm doing something similar, currently. 120 for the first 3 days, now at 60 for the remainder of week one and will probably go to 60/30/30 for subsequent weeks.

This is my first time trying torem, but I'm liking it so far. I'm including ATD at just 25 mg. per day and may inverse it as you said to 25/25/50/50 in the weeks to come. I don't generally like to go any higher than 50 w/ ATD.

I'm also using Blue Up at 4 caps per day and about 1 gram a day of testofen. Both products split into two doses. So far, so good.
 
nightfly71 said:
I'm doing something similar, currently. 120 for the first 3 days, now at 60 for the remainder of week one and will probably go to 60/30/30 for subsequent weeks.

This is my first time trying torem, but I'm liking it so far. I'm including ATD at just 25 mg. per day and may inverse it as you said to 25/25/50/50 in the weeks to come. I don't generally like to go any higher than 50 w/ ATD.

I'm also using Blue Up at 4 caps per day and about 1 gram a day of testofen. Both products split into two doses. So far, so good.
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How did this work out for you?
 
DZL said:
How Long After A Test And Deca Cycle Do U Take This Stuff??
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Opinions differ. However, most test esters are out a couple days sooner then deca. There is such a thing as test decaonate wich is is the same length as deca (Nandrolone decaonate). But almost nobody I know of uses it with any regularity.

That being said i'm going to assume that the test is a medium length one like cyp or enan. Deca should be pretty much useless aprox 16 days after last shot if my memory serves me. It's preferable to start the PCT as close to the time the androgens have dissipated as possible wich makes longer esters harder to time w/ pct than short ones and orals. It also means a gradual taper of levels. (wa, wa, wa, wa-wa-wa-wa-wa!) lol.

Option one is to just try and nail the timing and deal with the sometimes uncomfortable tapering out of the deca.

Option two (optimal IMHO) is to take short esters or orals for those last 16 days after the last deca shot, then BAM!!! come off cold on day 17 and start the PCT first thing in the morning. (This is not only insurance against muscle loss during the taper of the long esters, but it's much more fun:head:) But if no orals, HCG or super short esters are available you're stuck w/ option one).

If you have any HCG, you can use that during those last 16 days (instead of the fast acting oral AAS). In that case, you might start it (the HCG) at 20 or 21 days out instead of waiting till the last test and deca shot.

Good luck bro.:thumbsup:
 
nightfly71 said:
Very well, actually. I think it was the best I've felt/looked during any previous PCT. I'll probably be continuing to go w/ this protocol in the future.
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Nice.

Yeah man, that inverse taper idea was definitely one of the most effective things I ever tried. I actually got the idea from Dr. D two or three years ago. It seems to work well.
 
I'm 2 weeks (halfway) through my A-Andro. 4AD and DecaVol cycle and my body is seriously starting to shut down...one thing is hanging a lot lower than usual but two other things are starting to whither away. I have Toremifene on hand for PCT...should i start taking low doses now so i dont get completely shut down???
 
No. The anti-E wont slow down the shut down effect, because you're still taking enough androgen to create the feedback loop. The hypothalamus detects over abundance of EITHER estrogenic OR androgenic hormones, so even if you blocked some of the estros w/ a SERM, or eliminated them w/ an AI, you'd still be taking the androgens, so the shutdown effect would happen eventually anyway. Might as well save your anti-e's till you come off. (Unless you're getting gyno symptoms or holding ridiculous amounts of water, in wich case the anti-e's would help with that.) But shut down is inevitable if you take anything strong. The anti-e's just accelerate recovery once you come off.
 
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