does god exist

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there still would be good and evil, just confined to individual cultures. i dont support your sex with toddlers comment, but to this day young girls are still made to marry older men. but in their culture that is what is practiced. if another culture deems some of americans actions evil, they have every right too. we do live in a global world and thus more cultures are put into a single perspective, usually by the ruling nations. as to who is the judge, it should be the individual culture, but in a more and more connected world, it is invariably chosen by the top nations. america has been sticking its nose into evryones business, trying to make them believe as we do. its not enough that we live relatively safe in america, we have to make sure everyone thinks as we do too. i realize we are probobly on our way to a single global government, but in my opinion this will led to one of the greatest culture wars this world has ever seen....


Don't get me wrong, I think that sex with toddlers is horrible no matter where it happens. The same argument could be made for slavery, in some cultures it is the norm, even though in many others it is seen as being terrible.

If we disagree about everything else, at least we agree on your last sentence.
 
Stop AIDs, merca... Some things can only be slowed. And evne then the quality of life drops as they get closer to the end.

How did we develope to have a conscience and the abilitiy to create the idea of right and wrong?

i believe i DID say stop/slow and/or cure. i did not say ALL illnesses can be cured. the quality of life drops as soon as you are diagnosed, buddy. you are taught by your parents/guardians the difference between right and wrong. i am not a 600yr old wiseman, so i do not have any idea if cavemen or any other humans pre-chirst knew the difference between right and wrong. :)
 
The only truth is that everyone believes in God eventualy, once your standing in for your judgement...

And heres the opposite of that belief.The only truth is that everyone realises their is no god eventually,once you die and not a damn thing happens but the rotting of your corpse!

I wouldn't say something like this,just showing the opposite side of a belief that contributes nothing to anothers questionings.I mean are you thinking "Oh!I see now!Theirs not a god!"
 
One thing to think about is this:

If there is no God then there really isn't any good or evil is there? What is good? Good can be relative. In one place on Earth it can be good for adults to have sex with toddlers, and in another place it can be seen as horrible, who would be right?

dude, NOWHERE in the WORLD is it good for adults to have sex with toddlers, lmao. :lol: not ANYWHERE.
 
I originally stated something about that when I made my first post in this thread, I knew I would get too far into it lol... So hard to resist though.

Sad point is, the entire conversation will end most likely with both parties walking away the same as they were before it began. Which makes the entire thing almost pointless.

Though I have helped a few people get saved, its not an easy thing to do sometimes. Especially in txt....I have always done it through voice and in person..
The point you are failing to recognize is that what you desire to happen is not in your hands to impose. You do not convert someone. You share truth, as you perceive it. If that truth convicts a man in his heart there is a turning. That turning is the work of the Holy Spirit or even guilt if one wants to be usings a secular term for it.

The truth also convicted the the same men in the time of Jesus, and as a result of this conviction, they killed him. So much so that they broke their own Jewish law to do so. The Romans did not even want him dead. The Jews, His own people, killed him due to the conviction in their hearts that they experienced. That conviction infuriated them so the did what they did. And the crowd called out - "Give us Barabas"

You do not convert. You witness and testify to the evidence you have seen and or experienced. You do not need to do any more than that. My faith as a Christian is a precious personal relationship with Christ as I have experienced it. Not all experience it, therefore not all are converted or believe..yet...or ever. It's just a fact. Is my God, my Jesus, the right and only one. My faith tells me He is. The misconstrued facts and contradictory evidence and the nature of man to rationalize anything they want into being truth may also be at work in me as well as those who have the desire to reject the concept or idea of a God, never mind Jesus as a Christ.

You have to come to a place of maturity that it is purely by faith (now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen) that you place your trust in what you believe to be truth.

By nature this is completely contradictory to a rational, critical thinking individual who relies on evidence that is more tangiable.

I have complete appreciation for their reasoning for their disbelief. The unfortunate thing is that often time Christians or people of faith force their 'rationale' upon other who operate upon other 'rationale'.

The historical facts are that Jesus was born to Mary, wife of Joseph, died on a cross and was buried. The evidence that Mary conceived Jesus through a miraculous conception, died, was buried and rose again to life and ascended into Heaven is purely a leap of faith. I know very well that man documented this and it is potentially and inherently flawed, biased or untrue simply because it is based on a man or mens word without any true evidence of the facts of conception or resurrection other then their story as they tell it.

It is not at all so far fetched or complicated to understand why so many believe it to be bogus. Hence it is purely by faith that I believe and I believe I am saved. Nothing else. Nothing aside from my life transformed by this faith.

The challenge is not to come off holier than thow, and even more so the preaching damnation as the only alternative.

Statistically and anecdotally it is ineffective and repelling to most. That contradicts what you intended to do in the first place...no?
 
dude, NOWHERE in the WORLD is it good for adults to have sex with toddlers, lmao. :lol: not ANYWHERE.

In retrospect I probably should have phrased that better :jaw:

Regardless I have met several missionaries who could tell you some crazy **** that some people do in certain parts of the world.
 
i actually HAVE had 2 out of body experiences in my lifetime. i believe that there is more to me than just this flesh, little brain, guts, etc. there's some kind of electricity or force within me. again, watch what the bleep do we know. it tells how the brain works and it's fvcking amazing. think about this: why am i typing this right now? why do you get up and go look in the mirror? there are MILLIONS of things that we humans can do at ANY given point in time. yet we choose to do these certain things for some unknown reason to us. these things that we do, makes us who we are. anyone ever see donnie darko? i also highly recommend watching that. there's a scene where this force that is portrayed as a silver liquid pulls donnie into certain directions and that is why he goes and does specific things.

Was that OBE deliberate or part of a lucid dream? I am not quite to the point yet where I can have an OBE, I however have seen the stranger on the threshold still need to get past that.
 
i think i need to point out something about myself. while i am a firm believer there is no god, i am a firm beleiver in the power of humans. humans are said to only use 10% of our brains. i believe that some of the miracls that happen in the world can be attributed to humans using beyond 10% of their brain. monks use meditation and can produce a state near death. i also beleive that a so called "spiritual" experience can be acclaimed to the same thing. i think we are only know beginning to understand how powerful the human mind actually is. the further civilization falls from the belief in god, i think we will further unlock the limitlessness of our mind
 
One thing to think about is this:

If there is no God then there really isn't any good or evil is there? What is good? Good can be relative. In one place on Earth it can be good for adults to have sex with toddlers, and in another place it can be seen as horrible, who would be right?
I'm sorry, but that makes no sense. You're taking 'relative' way too far. We don't need God to realize what is fvcked up and what isn't. Good is helping people in need, evil is screwing people over, it's not that complicated.
 
Do the reserch Darwin threw out his evolutionary ideas because he concluded they didnt make sense.

You seiously believe a single celled organism evolved into the structure of our bodies, that the earth made itself, and a start just came to be out of dust?

Scienteistes predict the chance of our bodies being developed as they are are statistically impossible if you tried evolution.

Zero,
Do you believe there is a possibility you could be wrong? The reason I ask is you seem very close minded and if your mind is closed how do you expect to learn anything? I am not questioning your beliefs you have them and they seem to work for you, so Great! I also have my beliefs and feel very strongly about them. If I were told I would die within the next 24 hours it would not really concern me. I actually look forward to death, but does that mean I don't live my life to its fullest? Of course not, I actually don't let most things bother, because really what is the point?
 
I'm sorry, but that makes no sense. You're taking 'relative' way too far. We don't need God to realize what is fvcked up and what isn't. Good is helping people in need, evil is screwing people over, it's not that complicated.

I disagree.What we consider evil can be considered good in a different culture. If there is no standard than which culture is right?

Ultimately if we are all the result of one cosmic coincidence after another, then there really is no such thing as good or evil. We are only left with what is acceptable by one group of people based on that cultures values and traditions.
 
Zero,
Do you believe there is a possibility you could be wrong? The reason I ask is you seem very close minded and if your mind is closed how do you expect to learn anything? I am not questioning your beliefs you have them and they seem to work for you, so Great! I also have my beliefs and feel very strongly about them. If I were told I would die within the next 24 hours it would not really concern me. I actually look forward to death, but does that mean I don't live my life to its fullest? Of course not, I actually don't let most things bother, because really what is the point?

So sad and dark...........Yet I completely agree!!!!

I find it funny how one will think evolution is just too far fetched to believe.Yet being put in this life to determine wherre you go when you die and a soul that floats to some unknown place is comptely understandable!
 
By it hurts I mean as it hurts because of where they are going. FYI christians care about everyone, and can forgive anything. I dont take offense at all. People cuss at my work, and some times temps that come in try to push my buttons.

Christians hurt because people arent making it into the kingdom... Think about caring for a brother or a sister who is going to die unless you do something.

Some people just dont like it when a christian actually has anwsers. :clap2:

If you want I will leave the thread alone?

I can understand what you mean by it hurts, but understand by Christians trying to save everyone sometimes it hurts others. I had read a few years back a group of Christians had gone to the ren. fair in Wisconsin with megaphones professing that we are going to go to hell for our beliefs. We went there to enjoy our selves yet we have to listen to some fanatics with megaphones. We don't go searching for members, when they want what is offered they find us even though we make it difficult to locate us.
 
The point you are failing to recognize is that what you desire to happen is not in your hands to impose. You do not convert someone. You share truth, as you perceive it. If that truth convicts a man in his heart there is a turning. That turning is the work of the Holy Spirit or even guilt if one wants to be usings a secular term for it.

The truth also convicted the the same men in the time of Jesus, and as a result of this conviction, they killed him. So much so that they broke their own Jewish law to do so. The Romans did not even want him dead. The Jews, His own people, killed him due to the conviction in their hearts that they experienced. That conviction infuriated them so the did what they did. And the crowd called out - "Give us Barabas"

You do not convert. You witness and testify to the evidence you have seen and or experienced. You do not need to do any more than that. My faith as a Christian is a precious personal relationship with Christ as I have experienced it. Not all experience it, therefore not all are converted or believe..yet...or ever. It's just a fact. Is my God, my Jesus, the right and only one. My faith tells me He is. The misconstrued facts and contradictory evidence and the nature of man to rationalize anything they want into being truth may also be at work in me as well as those who have the desire to reject the concept or idea of a God, never mind Jesus as a Christ.

You have to come to a place of maturity that it is purely by faith (now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen) that you place your trust in what you believe to be truth.

By nature this is completely contradictory to a rational, critical thinking individual who relies on evidence that is more tangiable.

I have complete appreciation for their reasoning for their disbelief. The unfortunate thing is that often time Christians or people of faith force their 'rationale' upon other who operate upon other 'rationale'.

The historical facts are that Jesus was born to Mary, wife of Joseph, died on a cross and was buried. The evidence that Mary conceived Jesus through a miraculous conception, died, was buried and rose again to life and ascended into Heaven is purely a leap of faith. I know very well that man documented this and it is potentially and inherently flawed, biased or untrue simply because it is based on a man or mens word without any true evidence of the facts of conception or resurrection other then their story as they tell it.

It is not at all so far fetched or complicated to understand why so many believe it to be bogus. Hence it is purely by faith that I believe and I believe I am saved. Nothing else. Nothing aside from my life transformed by this faith.

The challenge is not to come off holier than thow, and even more so the preaching damnation as the only alternative.

Statistically and anecdotally it is ineffective and repelling to most. That contradicts what you intended to do in the first place...no?

Big B, that single post was IMO more knowledgable than all of V's combined. this is another reason why non-believers have such a problem with believers. they always seem to think it is their personal duty to convert others and it is not. yet they try to push their beliefs upon you anyway. not that you need it, but reps to you my friend. :goodpost:
 
About the hell thing. There are 2 doors, simple as that. If you arent going to one your going into the other.

I dont judge, but I fear what choices do to people.

Go to a revival, experience it, then say God is not real. If you are sure of yourself. Walk up to a holy spirit filled man while you are injured, ask him if healing is real, and have him pray for you. Just try it. You may be very very suprised...

How can you say there are only two doors? There is Pagan Wiccan Buddhist Muslim, the list goes on and on. It is not as cut and dry as you would like to think.
 
I am not higher than anyone. Christianity is about being a servant. The more you do for others the more you actually live. Have you ever seen a preacher think he is better than someone(ignore TV evangelists....), he usualy does without alot and helps everyone he can.

How am I putting myself higher? Most of you are probably far in college or done, make more money, are in better shape, have a beautiful GF or something. What do I do to make myself higher? It is more like a doctor trying to advise a patient...

About the hell thing. There are 2 doors, simple as that. If you arent going to one your going into the other.

I dont judge, but I fear what choices do to people.

Go to a revival, experience it, then say God is not real. If you are sure of yourself. Walk up to a holy spirit filled man while you are injured, ask him if healing is real, and have him pray for you. Just try it. You may be very very suprised...

There is a reason that the prayer may work if is half explained in the secret. Prayer any prayer as long as you believe will work. The second doubt comes in it all goes any.
 
Was that OBE deliberate or part of a lucid dream? I am not quite to the point yet where I can have an OBE, I however have seen the stranger on the threshold still need to get past that.

they were both deliberate. no dream involved. both lasted for roughly 45 sec.
 
Zero,
Do you believe there is a possibility you could be wrong? The reason I ask is you seem very close minded and if your mind is closed how do you expect to learn anything? I am not questioning your beliefs you have them and they seem to work for you, so Great! I also have my beliefs and feel very strongly about them. If I were told I would die within the next 24 hours it would not really concern me. I actually look forward to death, but does that mean I don't live my life to its fullest? Of course not, I actually don't let most things bother, because really what is the point?

wow, i am exactly the same way bro. i only have a handful of close friends who like us, look forward to death and actually embrace it. IMO we are freed and all of the knowledge that we now thirst for, we are enlightened with after passing on. i believe this world is not reality, but true reality is in the after life. REPS!!! :drunk:
 
I disagree.What we consider evil can be considered good in a different culture. If there is no standard than which culture is right?

Ultimately if we are all the result of one cosmic coincidence after another, then there really is no such thing as good or evil. We are only left with what is acceptable by one group of people based on that cultures values and traditions.

EXACTLY! both cultures are correct because that is what THEY BELIEVE and how they were taught throughout their entire existence.
 
Go to a revival. But we have a man at our church who tore the tendons in his knee and destroyed his knee cap. X-rays showed that surgery was needed, he wouldnt do it, he had the church pray for him. Results? He had X-rays again and the knee was perfect, healthy as if nothing ever happened. Doctor was a little confused.

Look around, there is tons of evidence of healing, but the news is NOT ALLOWED to post, show, or support it. The government forbids it.

Down in Florida there is a huge revival on, I will find the name of it if I can from church. Healings are happening like crazy.

You can actually watch video I believe of a church in Africa that has it's walls lined with crutches and wheelchairs where people come in cripples and walk out whole.

The reason people dont know about these things is because the media doesnt show it, and in a world where the only things people learn come from CNN it doesnt show up.

I will ask my friend if I can get some of his supportive proofs such as that video, which you people will diss because its a video and you will just yell*he is faking it* and so on.

You have to remember, religion got kicked down on the ground and is pinned at the moment by our culture.

I read about this gay couple, one of them had aids was on tons of meds during the whole time they were Pagans (Not sure which exact religion, it was a right handed path). Well one time at one of the rituals they prayed to Astarte, the next time he went to doctor (2 weeks later)they could find no trace of the disease. After about 3 times of going to the doctor the doctor says we does not understand why but he is cured. How do you prove he wasn't just making things up? I don't know.
 
I read about this gay couple, one of them had aids was on tons of meds during the whole time they were Pagans (Not sure which exact religion, it was a right handed path). Well one time at one of the rituals they prayed to Astarte, the next time he went to doctor (2 weeks later)they could find no trace of the disease. After about 3 times of going to the doctor the doctor says we does not understand why but he is cured. How do you prove he wasn't just making things up? I don't know.

Well god hates gays so that proves he was full of sh!t!.....right?
 
ever heard of the mayans? they too have predicted these things and existed BEFORE christ AND the bible. also, history repeats itself. so god said "universe; exist." then poof it came into existance? lol. how does a voice come from nothing and actually create words that will in turn, create EVERYTHING?

What about this:
Christians have always tried to convert as many people as they can who is to say they didn't just absorb this info from the Mayans or Pagans or anyone else? Before you answer you cannot use the bible as proof.
 
Nice to notice the christian gets cussed at, typical...every other post seems to have it... You know cussing shows a lack in vocab and intelligence? Your psychologists say so.... so if according to you they are right....

Anyhow. The holy spirit must do the healing, and the people praying must believe in God for the healing. If you have a bunch of chrisitians praying over someone who arent sure its going to happen, and if he isnt sure himself, it wont happen.

I have been healed before, therefore I know its real.

If the people praying over him are like "if God wills it, heal this man" and "We pray you heal him god, if it is what you want". Jesus said we have AUTHORITY over our bodies. Therefore we cast out the sickness and infirmities through discipline and assurity. In the name of Jesus Christ this IS done, and you ARE healed. Not "IF".... Does he really believe God will heal him? Or is he just "if it happens that would be nice"...

Not every church has healings, Some churches serve a diff purpose in Gods kingdom. Some are to be lighthouses and reach the unsaved, some are for healing, others are for spiritual warefare, others for mentoring...

Are you so sure of people in white coats who change their "facts" every 2 years because the found out they were wrong before? Christians dont change...havent, wont, dont need to. God is the same yesterday,today, and tommorow.

So you are saying the rules in the middle ages to now have not changed? I have heard differently.

Just read your post on difference between Catholic and Christian so I guess never mind on this one.
 
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Truth is I cannot convince anyone else here of my beliefs, and no one can convince me otherwise. So now what is the point of anymore conversation, is there not a stalemate in motion?

The discussion helps us advance, even if we disagree we can still learn.
 
wow, i am exactly the same way bro. i only have a handful of close friends who like us, look forward to death and actually embrace it. IMO we are freed and all of the knowledge that we now thirst for, we are enlightened with after passing on. i believe this world is not reality, but true reality is in the after life. REPS!!! :drunk:

Thanks man, on the obe do you care to share the method used? I understand if you can't due to an oath or something similar I understand.

BTW do you ride?
 
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:sick:
Zero,
Do you believe there is a possibility you could be wrong? The reason I ask is you seem very close minded and if your mind is closed how do you expect to learn anything? I am not questioning your beliefs you have them and they seem to work for you, so Great! I also have my beliefs and feel very strongly about them. If I were told I would die within the next 24 hours it would not really concern me. I actually look forward to death, but does that mean I don't live my life to its fullest? Of course not, I actually don't let most things bother, because really what is the point?

Let me put it this way. I used to be just like BigIron there.....I was against the idea of God 100%

I used to be 100% scientific, believed in evolution, studied the starts and supernovas and the theories about them like hte big bang, studied chemistry and biology and the ancient egyptions and aztec....

Now I drive a van to pick up kids, I am a youth leader, spend as much time at church as I can, and am a man 1000% stronger than I was.... I have the best friends i could have imagined, I play tennis alot, softball for the church, and I will be a youth pastor someday.

I didnt live until God. I may have done things, parties, sports, etc. But they didnt fill the gap i felt inside.

And I recieved a beatdown or two emotionally in the recent years involving my ex, and family happenings....

My ex is what got me really saved me to the extent I am now with my beliefs...

I am with you on looking forward to the end...in a sense. Whenever its my time I wont complain. No more taxes no more pain lol

I am not closed minded, actually, i am more "open minded" Science limits, God doesnt.

God put me in a position where the world...the doctors couldnt help... only he could, and he more than came through for me.
 
:sick:

Let me put it this way. I used to be just like BigIron there.....I was against the idea of God 100%

I used to be 100% scientific, believed in evolution, studied the starts and supernovas and the theories about them like hte big bang, studied chemistry and biology and the ancient egyptions and aztec....

Now I drive a van to pick up kids, I am a youth leader, spend as much time at church as I can, and am a man 1000% stronger than I was.... I have the best friends i could have imagined, I play tennis alot, softball for the church, and I will be a youth pastor someday.

I didnt live until God. I may have done things, parties, sports, etc. But they didnt fill the gap i felt inside.

And I recieved a beatdown or two emotionally in the recent years involving my ex, and family happenings....

My ex is what got me really saved me to the extent I am now with my beliefs...

I am with you on looking forward to the end...in a sense. Whenever its my time I wont complain. No more taxes no more pain lol

I am not closed minded, actually, i am more "open minded" Science limits, God doesnt.

God put me in a position where the world...the doctors couldnt help... only he could, and he more than came through for me.

I have not been at a point where I did not believe there was a higher power, but I had done some soul searching. The thing that doesn't add up to me is in your religion why are we here? In my beliefs it is to learn all we can and continue to grow up, just like we wish for our children. However in yours it's follow the rules be good boy and go to infinite happiness and receive knowledge of everything (correct me if I got that wrong). In which case what is the point? In that case there is no point to being on earth, you cannot learn all you can in one lifetime. It just seems to easy and simple.
You mentioned previously that there was stalemate since you were unable to convert or convince. Well think about this if something you have said has made someone evaluate how they treat everyone else in the world (in a positive way) haven't you in essence done God's work? Granted you haven't converted or "saved" them but possibly made the world a little better and isn't that what matters?
 
Big B, that single post was IMO more knowledgable than all of V's combined. this is another reason why non-believers have such a problem with believers. they always seem to think it is their personal duty to convert others and it is not. yet they try to push their beliefs upon you anyway. not that you need it, but reps to you my friend. :goodpost:
Here is where I try to stand on the matter:
1 Peter 3:15-16
KJV:
15. But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 16. Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

RSV:
15. but in your hearts reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence; 16. and keep your conscience clear, so that, when you are abused, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.

ASV:
15. but sanctify in your hearts Christ as Lord: (being) ready always to give answer to every man that asketh you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, yet with meekness and fear: 16. having a good conscience; that, wherein ye are spoken against, they may be put to shame who revil your good manner to life in Christ.

YLT:
15. and the Lord God sanctify in your hearts. And {be} ready always for defence to every one who is asking of you an account concerning the hope that {is} in you, with meekness and fear; 16. having a good conscience, that in that in which they speak against you as evil-doers, they may be ashamed who are traducing your good behaviour in Christ;

NAS:
15. but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always [being] ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; 16. and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.

NIV:
15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
Introduction

It has long been observed that Christians must always be “prepared to make a defense” as to why we have “a reason for the hope” of Christ (1 Pet. 3.15 ESV). The high calling of God is a unique phenomenon (Eph. 4.1; 1 Pet. 4.4), so much so that those who are both antagonistic and genuinely curious of the Lord’s way will ask us questions. We must give them, in return, rational answers.

Before focusing attention to the Christian’s responsibility of knowing why there is hope, we must not overlooked an implicit truth of this passage: confidence in the Lord and commitment to his doctrine are never to be divorced (Luke 6.46).

Christian Apologetics

Peter instructs Christians to give a “reason” for their faith and hope. What does this mean however? The corresponding word for “reason” is apologia and it has a legal background, meaning the argumentation employed as a “verbal defense” in a court hearing.[1] From time to time it will be demanded of Christians to defend their faith and explain why they live “differently” in contrast to the world. The apostles and early-inspired men of the first century likewise defended the Christian faith in two ways: (1) verbally (Acts 22.1, Phil. 1.7, 16, 2 Tim. 4.16) and (2) by means of literature (1 Cor. 9.3).

The New Testament documents themselves often have a defensive purpose. One of the aspects of Luke’s two-volume work (Luke-Acts) is its defensive nature. By taking into account Paul’s judicial context in Rome, scholars have observed that Luke-Acts – as Paul’s defense brief – provides excellent testimony to the Greco-Roman world that the Lord’s way is a benefit to society, and not an usurping religious system as many claimed Christianity to be.[2]

The apostle John’s Gospel and his first epistle are both defensive documents, responding to different challenges that the early church faced. The Gospel establishes the rationale for our hope on the Christ as Deity (John 20.30-31); meanwhile, 1 John refutes misconceptions of how to live godly in the face of the docetic-gnostic teachers infiltrating the church (1 John 2.1).

The apostle’s use of apologia demonstrates that the field of Christian defense is centuries old. This word is in fact the basis for our modern word apologetics. Its incorporation by Christians from the legal setting, where it was a “legal speech for the defense” to be delivered before the judicial authorities and subsequently published,[3] was therefore not a large leap (Acts 22.1; Phil. 1.17). In fact, it partially explains the publishing of Luke-Acts, and fits well with trumped-up political hearings where Christians had to defend themselves verbally (cf. 6.10-15, 18.12-17, 22.1, etc.; Matt. 10.19).

Besides biblical examples, from about 185-250 A.D. there was a series of apologies designed to “explain the origin, doctrine, and worship” (i.e. the historical basis) of the church to their contemporaries –antagonistic or supportive.[4] The works of Justin (his Apologies, Dialogue with Trypho), Athenagoras (Apology, On the Resurreciton), and Tertullian (Against Marcion, Prescription of Heretics) are usually thought of in this light.

Christian Apologetics was not, however, limited to the study of science, philosophy, and evolution and creationism. These are topics that consume Christian Apologetics today; however, in the early church apologetics was more a defense of why Christians live they way they live. This is not a criticism of contemporary apologetics, but a call to providing a rational defense of Christian ethics – religious and moral. Before moving on, observe that historically emotions have never been the sole basis for a proper defense for one’s beliefs.

As the need arose in the first century, so our responsibility to give reasons for our hope to our modern neighbors has not diminished. Antagonists and genuine inquisitors are constant factors in the Christian’s life; consequently, Christians must be capable to provide solid, well-studied responses. Likewise, every generation carries the responsibility of preaching the gospel to a dying world (Matt. 28.18-20).

To fulfill this work Christians must study the Bible, believe and follow through with its instruction, and teach it rigorously so that the next generation can continue in this Divinely given cycle (2 Tim. 2.1-2).

The Need for Personal Bible Study

To be sure, there are many Christians who are diligent and capable Bible students; some however, engage in superficial study and have rendered themselves incapable of giving a defense of their faith – or even passing it on. For this reason, it is important to recognize the value of congregational Bible study; but we must understand that congregational Bible study is only a foundation to be built upon. It should not be the only time Christians are exposed to God or His instruction.

Again, congregational Bible study is not a substitute for personal spiritual maturing (2 Tim. 2.15, 3.16-17); neither does it replace the daily light needed for living before God (Psa. 119.11, 105). To be truly blessed, Bible study must be a part of one’s meditation and life – “both day and night” (Psa. 1.1-2). God’s guidance must come from personal contact with His revelation.

Principles for Proficient Bible Study

It is sufficient to say, then, that in order to be proficient in one’s faith true Bible study cannot be superficial. Spiritually nurturing Bible study includes, at the very least: ample time for study, rigorous mental industry, a respect for the text, and a patient and prayerful consideration of all the facts. We will introduce and briefly consider these points below.

Our consideration here is limited of course; however, the points below are so vital to effective study that books are devoted to the pursuit of implementing each of them.

1. There must be ample time for study. Time is a valuable commodity. In the business world the phrase “time is money” illustrates how valuable time is. With regards to Bible study we might coin the phrase “time is life.” There is no substitute for having plenty of valuable time with the word of God.

Renewing one’s mind requires proper time with the word (Col. 3.9-10). However, the media-based culture we find ourselves in makes it difficult for some to spend time with the pages of inspiration. Nevertheless, we must make the time available (Rom. 13.14).

We must remember that it takes time to read the biblical passage, it takes time to understand how a specific passage fits into the rest of Scripture, and it takes time to examine both the context and words employed. Just as it takes time to mature through life, it takes time to mature spiritually (Psa. 1.1-3).

2. There must be mental industry. This is not a matter of intellectual genius. This is a matter of determination, exposure, and focus. Here is an example: in 1 Corinthians 15.1-11 Paul reminds the church of the Gospel that they received and believed. Now notice verses 3 and 4:

[3] For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, [4] that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures […].

This brief section of scripture yields an enormous amount of information. In fact, it is a “busy” section of Scripture, one scholar observes as he initiates his own study of this fundamental passage.[5]

As one determines to study the Scriptures, the level of exposure to biblical concepts increase. We must remain focused on the task of understanding the passage, noting unique phrases and points. For example, the phrase “in accordance with the Scriptures” above refers to a precise instance where Scripture has fulfilled prophetic passages regarding the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus (Acts 2.24-36).

The next step, then, is to find what scriptures predicted these events (cf. Isa. 53.5-12 and Psa. 16.8-11). When these passages are found and studied in collaboration with the Gospel message, untold spiritual fortification will occur. But remember, this is a matter of mental industry, not of mental genius.

3. There must be respect for the nature of the text. In other words, we must recognize numerous aspects of a passage. There are, of course, numerous facets or angles that a passage may be studied, but some of the most significant ones are: the context of the passage, the original purpose of the passage, the method used to prove the author’s point, and the covenantal context of the passage (e.g. Patriarchal, Mosaic, or Christian).

For example, animal sacrifice was offered both during the Patriarchal and Mosaic systems; however, the ramifications of the New Testament covenant demonstrates that this method of atonement is no longer a viable way for the forgiving of man’s sins (Heb. 9.1-10.18). One cannot overestimate solid principles of interpretations.[6]

One more issue that must be considered separately is acknowledgement that the Bible was not written in English. One must also respect the fact that the Bible English readers have is a translation of the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek language. This fact must never be ignored, ridiculed, nor underestimated in the study of God’s word.

Jack P. Lewis expresses this caution in the following way:

In the ultimate analysis every significant Biblical question is to be solved on the basis of what a writer meant by a Hebrew, Greek, or Aramaic expression.[7]

Observing this one principle can sometimes help distinguish biblical truth from both liberal and legalistic conclusions.

4. There must be patience and a prayerful consideration of all the facts. There is no value in jumping to conclusions. This is a fundamental principle to rational thinking. To understand the Bible’s teaching on a subject, we must take a slow and prayerful approach in coming to a conclusion. This way, one is as thorough as humanly possible.

J.D. Thomas reminds us of the importance of thorough Bible study:

All facts must be considered. One white horse can ruin an hypothesis that all horses are brown, and one contrary fact can ruin any inductive-reasoning hypothesis, meaning that research must start again. This means that for perfect, absolute exegesis, every stone must be turned - every fact possible must be determined and taken into account, in order to complete scholarly research.[8]

No one of genuine concern wants to be wrong on what the Bible teaches. Therefore we must be cautious and ready to see all the biblical evidence as slowly or quickly as it is analyzed.

In principle, it is what we find in Paul’s instruction to the Thessalonians:

[19] Do not quench the Spirit. [20] Do not despise prophecies, [21] but test everything; hold fast what is good. [22] Abstain from every form of evil” (1 Thess. 5.19-22 ESV).

We must be patient and let the scriptural facts reveal themselves on their own terms.

Conclusion

The Christian will always be called upon to share their hope with the world; no matter what generation it is. Providing answers so that people may understand the nature of the Christian faith is the true purpose of Christian Apologetics. In order to comply with the apostle Peter’s instruction, Christians must be diligent Bible students; however this is not always the case.

While congregations are to be supporters of the truth (1 Tim. 3.15), individual members must abide in the words of the Gospel (John 8.31-32). By engaging in proficient Bible study, Christians will have knowledge of their faith and hope, and therefore be able to share their faith.

Sources

Newman, Jr., Barclay M. A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament. Stuttgart: Deutsche Biblegesellschaft, 1993; p. 22.
Carson, D.A., James Moo, and Leon Morris. An Introduction to the New Testament. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1992; pp. 196-97.
Carey, G.L. “Apologists.” New International Dictionary of the Christian Church. Gen. ed. J.D. Douglas. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1974; p. 57.
Mattox, F.W. The Eternal Kingdom. Rev. ed. Delight, AR: Gospel Light, 1961; pp. 67-87; cf. Wallace, Ronald S. “Apologetics.” New International Dictionary of the Christian Church. Gen. ed. J.D. Douglas. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1974. 56-57.
Jackson, “Gospel” 3
To that effect, consider Wayne Jackson’s profitable material on this subject in A Study Guide to Greater Bible Knowledge. Stockton, CA: Courier, 1986; pp. 20-29.
Lewis, Jack P. “Inspiration and Authority of the Bible.” Alternative 5.2 (1979): 3-8; p. 6 emphasis added.
Thomas, J.D. Harmonizing Hermeneutics. Nashville: Gospel Advocate, 1991; p. 87 emphasis added.

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My point is also that a majority of believers and non believers are equally ignorant of what the Bible actually states, but even moresor what it implies. Both are mistaken very often. It is not the letter of the Word but the Spirit of the Word that is to be ingrained upon ones heart.

When I give a reason for the hope I have it is purely based on my faith and trust in the spirit of the Word. I had better know what I am talking about. If not I should remain quiet.

Likewise when non believers are challenging the Word, they very often fail to recognize that it is the spirit of the Word, not the letter of it. Yet they too are often completely ignorant of both the letter, and primarily and most importantly the spirit of the Word.

In conclusion, Christianity is not what you decide it is, and as well, it is not what you decide it is not. This applies to both the believer and the non believer.

"They will know I am Christian by my love".

Matthew 5
Love for Enemies
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

I do not preach or evangilize, yet, rest assured if one inquires, I will give testimony for the reason for my faith and belief. But it need to be in accordance with the Word, both letter and sprirt, but most improtantly the spirit. I speak the truth, how I see it, based on the principles stated in the above quotation.

I really cannot summarize my Christianity anymore clearly.

Does God exist? I live as if He does.
 
There are different levels of understanding christianity. On an online message board I am not diving into some of it. I mean if I started talking about demonic powers and some of the more inclusive ideas about heaven it gets weird.

You dont stop learning on earth, and in a sense when we go to heaven we still continue to learn, but just as we worship God on earth, we will too worship him for all eternity. Man exists as a child God loves, but also to show God love in return.

There are also different estates in heaven, as a popular belief. Not every one has teh same level of rewards. A man who barely makes it by salvation on his deathbed compared to someone who served Christ without fail for years and years.

Then the scripture of "the first shall be last, and the last shall be first" usually gets brought up, but that is interpretted as those who worked for christ. If you get salvation but do nothing withit, such as witness, and use helps then you have not really done what you are supposed to.

It is really just a father trying to have a connection with his rebillious children.
 
There are different levels of understanding christianity. On an online message board I am not diving into some of it. I mean if I started talking about demonic powers and some of the more inclusive ideas about heaven it gets weird.

You dont stop learning on earth, and in a sense when we go to heaven we still continue to learn, but just as we worship God on earth, we will too worship him for all eternity. Man exists as a child God loves, but also to show God love in return.

There are also different estates in heaven, as a popular belief. Not every one has teh same level of rewards. A man who barely makes it by salvation on his deathbed compared to someone who served Christ without fail for years and years.

Then the scripture of "the first shall be last, and the last shall be first" usually gets brought up, but that is interpretted as those who worked for christ. If you get salvation but do nothing withit, such as witness, and use helps then you have not really done what you are supposed to.

It is really just a father trying to have a connection with his rebillious children.
You keep making speculations. Are you Mormon by any chance?
 
I disagree.What we consider evil can be considered good in a different culture. If there is no standard than which culture is right?

Ultimately if we are all the result of one cosmic coincidence after another, then there really is no such thing as good or evil. We are only left with what is acceptable by one group of people based on that cultures values and traditions.

that is the exact point i was trying to make. each culture will decide what is evil and how it fits into their culture. just because america has progressed so far doesnt make our culture the best. we are just in a position to try and force our beliefs on evryone else.
 
that is the exact point i was trying to make. each culture will decide what is evil and how it fits into their culture. just because america has progressed so far doesnt make our culture the best. we are just in a position to try and force our beliefs on evryone else.

Their used be no age law against consentual sex.Alcahol was illegal at one point.Pot was tolerated but will get you thrown in jail today or even prison.It needs to be legal but probably won't.This is all a group of people deciding these things.They aren't considerd good or evil because of christianity.
 
You keep making speculations. Are you Mormon by any chance?


lol, no no. They are a cult.. I am pentacostle. And I dont make speculations, I just give what I can. I belief scientists only speculate and a FACT never changes, but their facts change all the time. So they are about as accurate as a 3 year old shooting basketball. It just takes 50 years to figure out they missed.


And by two doors I meant that is all that is there when you die. Jesus said "no one comes to the father but through me"...so there is the going through him door. and the not going through him door. Other religions would fall into the not going through him door. You can take that for what you want. If you believe in another religion then maybe to you that is the right door in your opinion.

I dont say people are going to hell, God is the one that grades the test at the end of the day, not I. So the only being who knows is him.

About chrisitians running around wiht mikes telling people they are going to hell that is a bit odd...

Truth be told though fire and brimestone is sometimes needed to save certain people.

But as a previous post said, can someone disprove God?
 
that is the exact point i was trying to make. each culture will decide what is evil and how it fits into their culture. just because america has progressed so far doesnt make our culture the best. we are just in a position to try and force our beliefs on evryone else.

Ok so if some tribe in New Guinea thinks that it is ok for the adults to have sexual relations with the children of the tribe does that make it ok? Is sexual relations with children, or slavery, or cannibalism is ok just because a culture thinks that it is ok, because that is the way they have done things for generations?
 
By it hurts I mean as it hurts because of where they are going. FYI christians care about everyone, and can forgive anything. I dont take offense at all. People cuss at my work, and some times temps that come in try to push my buttons.

Christians hurt because people arent making it into the kingdom... Think about caring for a brother or a sister who is going to die unless you do something.

Some people just dont like it when a christian actually has anwsers. :clap2:

If you want I will leave the thread alone?
I would respecct the notion if you truly had answers, but in all honesty I have not seen anything that leads me to believe that
 
Ok so if some tribe in New Guinea thinks that it is ok for the adults to have sexual relations with the children of the tribe does that make it ok? Is sexual relations with children, or slavery, or cannibalism is ok just because a culture thinks that it is ok, because that is the way they have done things for generations?
I understand where you are coming from, but look at ancient civilizations where children were unfortunately used for this purpose. They(adults at the time) did not think anything less of themselves as a result.

Morals are all relative
 
But as a previous post said, can someone disprove God?
lets look at this like a court room. Since you believe in the existence of god, then you therefore believe in one more thing than the nontheist, therefore the burden of proof lies on you. Please prove gods existence.

I will wait for a respose :)
 
There are also different estates in heaven, as a popular belief. Not every one has teh same level of rewards. A man who barely makes it by salvation on his deathbed compared to someone who served Christ without fail for years and years.
What? different estates? SO if I convert on my death bed I get a smaller heavenly domain than you? Man, god has an odd sense of humor
 
I understand where you are coming from, but look at ancient civilizations where children were unfortunately used for this purpose. They(adults at the time) did not think anything less of themselves as a result.

Morals are all relative

Obviously I disagree, but you did answer the question I posed. If Deity exist then there can be an absolute moral standard, but without Diety no moral standard can exist.

Can we agree that this is a fertile breeding ground for problems.

Obviously some human or more likely a majority of humans will ultimately decide what is and what is not acceptable behavior for everyone else. We will likely see in our lifetime the dissolution of individual states and a push towards one global state. Who will make the rules for everyone else to follow?
 
Obviously I disagree, but you did answer the question I posed. If Deity exist then there can be an absolute moral standard, but without Diety no moral standard can exist.

Can we agree that this is a fertile breeding ground for problems.

Obviously some human or more likely a majority of humans will ultimately decide what is and what is not acceptable behavior for everyone else. We will likely see in our lifetime the dissolution of individual states and a push towards one global state. Who will make the rules for everyone else to follow?
I dont think that a deity is needed for morals but true honest people, which goes directly into your next point as so few of them exist any longer.

I agree 100% about a global state, and am frightened for my daughter, and grandchildren down the line as to who will call the shots
 
Ok so if some tribe in New Guinea thinks that it is ok for the adults to have sexual relations with the children of the tribe does that make it ok? Is sexual relations with children, or slavery, or cannibalism is ok just because a culture thinks that it is ok, because that is the way they have done things for generations?

correct. who are we to tell them that it is not ok?
 
Obviously I disagree, but you did answer the question I posed. If Deity exist then there can be an absolute moral standard, but without Diety no moral standard can exist.

Can we agree that this is a fertile breeding ground for problems.

Obviously some human or more likely a majority of humans will ultimately decide what is and what is not acceptable behavior for everyone else. We will likely see in our lifetime the dissolution of individual states and a push towards one global state. Who will make the rules for everyone else to follow?

the new world order. ever heard of the skull and bones society? i suggest you google it. it is a fraternity at Yale. George Washington was the first member who became president. george w. bush, his father, etc are also members. here's what the initiation entails. BELIEVE IT OR NOT!

Publicly sold their souls to Satan. George W. Bush may have considered it a joke, but it is still a sick joke.
Publicly masturbated in a coffin in view of the other members of the fraternity.
Swore allegiance to Satan while touching a human skull.
Bowed before a man dressed as Satan.
Permitted a man to press a human femur (thigh bone) into his anus.
Publicly confessed the entire catalog of his lifelong sexual fantasies.
Chanted the mantra:

“The Hangman equals Death.
The devil equals death.
Death equals Death.”

if you do not beliee it, then google it. 60 minutes did a documentary on it, it has been covered on many news boradcasts, books have been written about it, yale alumni magazine talks about it, etc. Invalid Link Removed
 
correct. who are we to tell them that it is not ok?

What if the child does not wish to be sexually exploited, the child does not have any way to defend itself. What if the tribesman does not wish to be eaten by the rest of the tribe? Does not the child or the tribesman have the right to live in the way that they wish to live? This environment is not free, it is the epitome of oppression. The majorities rule over the individual.

And all this time, I thought it was God who was oppressing peoples rights? Turns out it is man.
 
What if the child does not wish to be sexually exploited, the child does not have any way to defend itself. What if the tribesman does not wish to be eaten by the rest of the tribe? Does not the child or the tribesman have the right to live in the way that they wish to live? This environment is not free, it is the epitome of oppression. The majorities rule over the individual.

And all this time, I thought it was God who was oppressing peoples rights? Turns out it is man.

well i'm pretty sure that if they have been taught these things for generations, they look forward to whatever the ritual/ceremony is. regardless of if they must be sacrificed or not. they know what they need to do for the better of the tribe, and have known since birth. if this is not the case and they are against their entire society's beliefs, then yes that would be terrible. however it is terrible to us, not their tribe. still, we are not the overlying power like we wish to think we are. this way of thinking is why we are at war and will continue to be, even more so in the future. all the way to our own demise.
 
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