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does god exist

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This is from book "Conversations with God" by Neal Donald Walsch.
--But You will punish us, right? You will lovingly punish us. You will send us to everlasting torment, with love in Your heart and sadness that You had to do it.
--No. I (God) have no sadness, ever, because there is nothing I "have to do." Who would make Me "have to do it"? I will never punish you, although you may choose to punish your self in this life or another, until you don't anymore. I will not punish you because I have not been hurt or damaged--not can you hurt or damage any part of Me, which all of you are.
- Others may not forgive you, but I (God) do. Others may not release you from your guilt, but I do. Others may not let you forget, allow you to go on, become something new, but I do. For I know that you are not what you were, but are, and always will be, what you are now.
A sinner can become a Saint in one minute, in one second, in one breath.
In truth, there is no such thing as a "sinner", for no one can be "sinned" against- least of Me (God). That is why I say that I "forgive" you. I use that phrase because it is one you seem to understand.

In truth, I do not forgive you, and will not forgive you ever, for anything. I do not have to. There is nothing to forgive. But I can release you. Now. Release you from fear of being punished by Me.

The reason I have no need to forgive you is that you cannot offend Me, nor can I be damaged or destroyed. You cannot hurt Me, nor can I be harmed in any way. And that which cannot be harmed cannot, and would not, harm another.

Do you understand the logic behind the truth that I (God) do not condemn, nor shall I punish, nor have I need to seek retribution. I have no such need, for I have not been, and cannot be, offended or damaged or hurt in any way.
 
selling religion and fear like the catholic church have done for so long is the business to be in, they enjoy excellent tax benefits and have some serious real estate to boot, how many catholic churchs have all the prime real estate spots in every town in the western word?

what cracks me up is when i see a sign in one of their car parks (which are always empty except on sundays and funerals every now and then) in the middle of town that says cars will be clamped or towed for unauthorised parking. what happened to turning the other cheek or helping thy neighbor?
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i'm not knocking general believers, i'm knocking the catholic organisation that profits a huge amount of $$$ when one can believe without needing this organisation telling them what to do, what to believe etc all the while charging them for it.
 
bigironkiller said:
1st: you said one must believe in god
2nd: without god recognition we are punished in hell

by you believing in god and believing the above points(which i took from your post) even a good person will go to hell if he doesnt believe. it is not a direct claim to superiorty, but it hints at that fact.
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I simply laid out the gospel. I didn't attempt to show my own superiority. Do I believe these things? Yes, I do. Am I better than anyone else? Hell no, I am not. I've done some f'd up things in my life, seriously, I'm not superior, I just believe in something that you do not.
 
b unit said:
what cracks me up is when i see a sign in one of their car parks (which are always empty except on sundays and funerals every now and then) in the middle of town that says cars will be clamped or towed for unauthorised parking. what happened to turning the other cheek or helping thy neighbor?
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Can't help but agree. That sort of thing is pretty crappy.
 
T-Bone said:
You need to get on your knees and ask for forgiveness. This thread is uncalled for. I'm not gonna read anymore of this thread because it is sickining!.
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I'm sorry, but this is perfect example of what religion does to people when it;s taking to the extremes. Brainwashing...
You must understand that humans have many fear-based religions whose teaching surround a doctrine of a God who is to be worshipped and feared.
In the earlier days, it was through fear priests got people to "mend their wicked ways" and "heed the word of the Lord." It was through fear that churches gained and controlled their membership.
One church even insisted that God would punish you if you did not go to church every Sunday...
I could go on and on...
 
b unit said:
it's just one reason why people (myself included) get their backs up with churchs and religion etc, what they see doesn't add up to what they hear them say or preach.

cheers
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I feel ya. It's difficult to eliminate hypocrisy within the Church, especially with the nature of people (selfish, etc...).

That's the way things are gonna be though, sucks, but that's how it is.
 
well ozarka i guess were at a point to agree to disagree. i laid out what i thought was a superiorty hint that i got from that one statement. by admiting your not perfect i beleive that you dont think your superior. i was wrong. keep em coming
 
bigironkiller said:
well ozarka i guess were at a point to agree to disagree. i laid out what i thought was a superiorty hint that i got from that one statement. by admiting your not perfect i beleive that you dont think your superior. i was wrong. keep em coming
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Gotta admit. I'm liking this discussion.

Nobody is really getting their feelings hurt, and it forces me (and others I'm sure) to examine my own beliefs even closer. I'll keep 'em coming. Don't know where to go next though. Any thoughts?
 
This is a good essay related to this discussion for those who are interested.

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I would also suggest C.S. Lewis "Mere Christianity" to any atheist or agnostic who doesn't see any logic in theism. C.S. Lewis wrote the book as a man who was an atheist who later converted to Christianity later in life. He does not attempt to convert the reader, he only explains why Christianity makes sense to him.

As for me I am a Christian, I accepted Jesus when I was 19. Prior to that I was an agnostic.

I believe because of what I have experienced in my own personal life, this is likely the case with all believers. No I do not know for certain that there is a God, no one does, but enough of what I have experienced certainly fortifies my faith.

I hope this thread stays open as I would like to post and address some of the issues that have been brought up. I can not do this right now as I have to cook. Hopefully I will be able to post tomorrow or the next day.

I would like to leave on this note:

If there is a God, then at least one of the holy text have it right. (They may all be right to a degree). Regardless if there is a God and He has made revelation to us then it is clear that there is an afterlife. If there is an afterlife than it is also likely that good people will go somewhere and the bad will go somewhere else. If God is just clearly He would not make people who did not want anything to do with Him in life spend an eternity with Him.

So if there is a God ,and there is an afterlife, and in the afterlife the "good" and separated from the "bad" by what measure does God determine who is good enough to be with Him and bad enough to go with the worst of the worst?

Some religious beliefs hold that if someone was 51% good and 49% bad then he will make it into Paradise, some hold that God is the ultimate mark for goodness and that one deviation off that mark is enough to separate one from Him for eternity. If God is infinately good than even one bad deed is infinately bad isn't it?

If someone is bad early in life then how does he atone for it in hopes to enter into heaven one day? That is where Christianity differs from other religions.

In other religions it is a situation where man is constantly playing this game of trying to be good enough to please God. The New Testament teaches that no amount of good deeds can erase even the smallest bad deed. That being the case all mankind is destined to live eternally separate from God. In order to avoid this God paid the price of sin, death, Himself in the person of Jesus. Now no one has to pay that penalty, but they have to make a conscious effort to accept the Grace of God. The eternal Life that belongs to God is anyones for the taking, because He freely gives it.
 
at this stage let me say, that i'm really impressed with oz and big iron, you guys are to be commended, there's a lot of threads that crash and burn and get real ugly with differences of opinions, good to see a real agree to disagree agreeably go down and still be cool with each other.

cheers guys
 
Dadof2 said:
This is a good essay related to this discussion for those who are interested.

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I would also suggest C.S. Lewis "Mere Christianity" to any atheist or agnostic who doesn't see any logic in theism. C.S. Lewis wrote the book as a man who was an atheist who later converted to Christianity later in life. He does not attempt to convert the reader, he only explains why Christianity makes sense to him.

As for me I am a Christian, I accepted Jesus when I was 19. Prior to that I was an agnostic.

I believe because of what I have experienced in my own personal life, this is likely the case with all believers. No I do not know for certain that there is a God, no one does, but enough of what I have experienced certainly fortifies my faith.

I hope this thread stays open as I would like to post and address some of the issues that have been brought up. I can not do this right now as I have to cook. Hopefully I will be able to post tomorrow or the next day.

I would like to leave on this note:

If there is a God, then at least one of the holy text have it right. (They may all be right to a degree). Regardless if there is a God and He has made revelation to us then it is clear that there is an afterlife. If there is an afterlife than it is also likely that good people will go somewhere and the bad will go somewhere else. If God is just clearly He would not make people who did not want anything to do with Him in life spend an eternity with Him.

So if there is a God ,and there is an afterlife, and in the afterlife the "good" and separated from the "bad" by what measure does God determine who is good enough to be with Him and bad enough to go with the worst of the worst?

Some religious beliefs hold that if someone was 51% good and 49% bad then he will make it into Paradise, some hold that God is the ultimate mark for goodness and that one deviation off that mark is enough to separate one from Him for eternity. If God is infinately good than even one bad deed is infinately bad isn't it?

If someone is bad early in life then how does he atone for it in hopes to enter into heaven one day? That is where Christianity differs from other religions.

In other religions it is a situation where man is constantly playing this game of trying to be good enough to please God. The New Testament teaches that no amount of good deeds can erase even the smallest bad deed. That being the case all mankind is destined to live eternally separate from God. In order to avoid this God paid the price of sin, death, Himself in the person of Jesus. Now no one has to pay that penalty, but they have to make a conscious effort to accept the Grace of God. The eternal Life that belongs to God is anyones for the taking, because He freely gives it.
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Very good post. And I also recommend "Mere Christianity." It's not a bad read at all.
 
the thing about afterlife is that you have to die to find out if there is an afterlife which i'm not prepared to do to find out and NO ONE can prove there is an afterlife or not because once you're dead you're dead and there's no coming back.

i think a lot of people worry so much about an afterlife that they forget to live their life in the now.
 
Again, what is God? Here's my opinion...
God is everything and everyone, every person has a soul, that part of God and all souls in the end go back to God. Hell don't exist, this is all made up by religious leaders centuries ago to keep crowds in fear and control them any way they wanted to. Why would God punish Himself? For what?
Good people, bad people? God doesn't judge anyone, as much as we are all want for God to judge those who's done something wrong against us. God will never punish people because God can not be hurt or damaged--nor can you hurt or damage any part of God. So, again, why God would punish Himself?
 
DmitryWI said:
Again, what is God? Here's my opinion...
God is everything and everyone, every person has a soul, that part of God and all souls in the end go back to God. Hell don't exist, this is all made up by religious leaders centuries ago to keep crowds in fear and control them any way they wanted to. Why would God punish Himself? For what?
Good people, bad people? God doesn't judge anyone, as much as we are all want for God to judge those who's done something wrong against us. God will never punish people because God can not be hurt or damaged--nor can you hurt or damage any part of God. So, again, why God would punish Himself?
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What makes you think souls are literal pieces of God?

Also, man, the scriptures (all of them, OT and NT) speak of hell, and it fits very nicely into the context of the surrounding scriptures. For it to have simply been added in by religious leaders for their own gain would be nothing short of a miracle IMO.
 
at the end of the day guys, christians, buddist, musliums, atheists or whatever, a 50lb plate is still a 50lb plate and whether we have the same beliefs or not here at AM we all share a common way of life and that's lifting weights!

and as the big man ronnie coleman would say "yeah buddy, LIGHTWEIGHTS BABY!!!"



cheers
 
What makes me think that?
Talking to God and asking Him questions about it directly, reading books other than Bible, which is I believe has so many lies in it, learning from many spiritual teachers, who I believe know the Truth beyond all that Bible teaches, because really, what else you have besides Bible? I've been in your shoes before, when I knew nothing but Bible and at this point of my life I can tell you, just by studying bible, I knew nothing about God, absoultely nothing.
 
I dont know, I just dont get how it can be said that if a person doesnt believe, and follow the word of the bible, that they are going to hell... That takes away all personal choice. So a non-believer can say, "believe in whatever you want, as long as youre happy with it." While a believer can only say, "believe whatever you want, but if you dont agree with me youre going to hell." I just dont get how religion can try to force itself upon everyone with consequence. It baffles me. But I can let everyone believe whatever they want to, I give myself that choice. :)
 
Maverick60 said:
I dont know, I just dont get how it can be said that if a person doesnt believe, and follow the word of the bible, that they are going to hell... That takes away all personal choice. So a non-believer can say, "believe in whatever you want, as long as youre happy with it." While a believer can only say, "believe whatever you want, but if you dont agree with me youre going to hell." I just dont get how religion can try to force itself upon everyone with consequence. It baffles me. But I can let everyone believe whatever they want to, I give myself that choice. :)
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Just to be clear, without God, without the scripture, there would be no hell. So, to any atheist concerned about hell, that just don't make sense!
 
ozarkaBRAND said:
Just to be clear, without God, without the scripture, there would be no hell. So, to any atheist concerned about hell, that just don't make sense!
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i don't think mav is concerned about actually going to hell he's more pissed about someone judging and insulting him by telling him his beliefs are wrong because that's what it is when someone tells a non believer they'll burn in hell.

ever seen a christian get fired up because they've been told their beliefs are B.S and a joke? same thing is it not? if their beliefs are real then it's not a joke so there's no need to get upset is there?

in my experience a lot of christians are quick to judge but can't handle being judged! they get angry and start insulting and they do it in the name of their lord which really doesn't do them any great favours on the PR front.

Who are they to judge and does it not go against their own scriptures?

Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment that you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me take the speck out of your eye," when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Matthew 7.1-5
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ozarkaBRAND said:
Just to be clear, without God, without the scripture, there would be no hell. So, to any atheist concerned about hell, that just don't make sense!
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Right. But for anyone that believes, the bible tells them that they cant allow someone to be an atheist. I would have a lot less of an objection if it said something like - If you dont follow my guidance and allow me to be your lord and savior, you wont come to my heaven. Instead of - If you dont follow my guidance and accept me as your lord and savior, youre going to burn in the most awful place you can think of for eternity.

You dont have to include me in your belief in an afterlife in a wonderful place called heaven, but to tell all people that youre going to force me to participate if I like it or not, and send me to hell for being a non believer, thats kinda not your choice to make and Im not going to fear it.

But like others have said, if someones belief in god allows them to be a better person because of it, or to use it to get through hard times, Im fine with that. I like that.
 
Maverick60 said:
I dont know, I just dont get how it can be said that if a person doesnt believe, and follow the word of the bible, that they are going to hell...
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This is not true, but I can share my opinion why it's said so. When church and religion were created, the main goal was to have unlimited power and control over people and keeping people in fear is perfect way of doing so. Then you take the truth from the original scrips that came from God and mix it with lies that would benefit church and here's how bible was created.
How come bible doesn't teach how to communicate with God on your own? Well, because it doesn't benefit the church, people would become too independent and this is last thing church wanted...
 
Well i read most of this. I will say i did believe at a younger age. But anymore i don't know what to believe. And to be honest it really doesn't matter what i believe i still could be wrong and so could everyone else. Just my 02.. :dance:
 
Maverick60 said:
Right. But for anyone that believes, the bible tells them that they cant allow someone to be an atheist. I would have a lot less of an objection if it said something like - If you dont follow my guidance and allow me to be your lord and savior, you wont come to my heaven. Instead of - If you dont follow my guidance and accept me as your lord and savior, youre going to burn in the most awful place you can think of for eternity.

You dont have to include me in your belief in an afterlife in a wonderful place called heaven, but to tell all people that youre going to force me to participate if I like it or not, and send me to hell for being a non believer, thats kinda not your choice to make and Im not going to fear it.

But like others have said, if someones belief in god allows them to be a better person because of it, or to use it to get through hard times, Im fine with that. I like that.
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I don't know about a believer not being allowed to let someone continue to be an atheist. In reality (well, reality as far as Christianity is concerned, and what I believe) it's really not up to a person whether or not they believe or do not. Believers are pre-destined by God to know Him and believe in Him, and His Son, and non-believers are destined to be non-believers.
 
Bottom line is God gave us all free will and if it's your free will not to believe in God, this is totally fine, it doesn't change anything for God.
 
b unit said:
i don't think mav is concerned about actually going to hell he's more pissed about someone judging and insulting him by telling him his beliefs are wrong because that's what it is when someone tells a non believer they'll burn in hell.

ever seen a christian get fired up because they've been told their beliefs are B.S and a joke? same thing is it not? if their beliefs are real then it's not a joke so there's no need to get upset is there?

in my experience a lot of christians are quick to judge but can't handle being judged! they get angry and start insulting and they do it in the name of their lord which really doesn't do them any great favours on the PR front.

Who are they to judge and does it not go against their own scriptures?
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:clap2: Reps for ya.
 
DmitryWI said:
Destined? So where's free will come in here? Or we don't have free will?
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Illusion of free will in this aspect I guess.

This is what the scripture says. Now, you tell me, why on earth would people who want to keep people in the faith and in fear of hell leave this in the scriptures, or add it in the scriptures? That wouldn't be very productive for attendance I don't think.
 
ozarkaBRAND said:
I don't know about a believer not being allowed to let someone continue to be an atheist. In reality (well, reality as far as Christianity is concerned, and what I believe) it's really not up to a person whether or not they believe or do not. Believers are pre-destined by God to know Him and believe in Him, and His Son, and non-believers are destined to be non-believers.
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Alright, but thats also including people like myself into your beliefs. Thats where Im confused. How can the bible include non believers?

What you said earlier that the bible says, "Without recognition of this and a true belief in this, we (being imperfect, no matter how good of people we think we are) are without God's grace and will be punished with hell." that tells me that all Christians consider me hellbound, instead of allowing me to believe what I want. Because by saying that Im definitely going to hell for not believing, is forcing your beliefs on me, if I believe or not. Ill just never understand that.
 
Maverick60 said:
Alright, but thats also including people like myself into your beliefs. Thats where Im confused. How can the bible include non believers?

What you said earlier that the bible says, "Without recognition of this and a true belief in this, we (being imperfect, no matter how good of people we think we are) are without God's grace and will be punished with hell." that tells me that all Christians consider me hellbound, instead of allowing me to believe what I want. Because by saying that Im definitely going to hell for not believing, is forcing your beliefs on me, if I believe or not. Ill just never understand that.
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Nah man, we allow you to believe what you want, we just believe that it's wrong. And sure, we'd love to change your mind, but it's really not up to us.

And the bible can include non-believers because everything in this world is under the authority of God.
 
ozarkaBRAND said:
Illusion of free will in this aspect I guess.

This is what the scripture says. Now, you tell me, why on earth would people who want to keep people in the faith and in fear of hell leave this in the scriptures, or add it in the scriptures? That wouldn't be very productive for attendance I don't think.
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because most people are too lazy to interpuret it for themselves and are only too happy to be told what it means by the one's in control? - just a guess
 
b unit said:
because most people are too lazy to interpuret it for themselves and are only too happy to be told what it means by the one's in control? - just a guess
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I don't think that makes sense though, not in this particular instance. If people are even more apt to believe that their salvation is completely out of their hands, don't you think that it would drive down church attendance? Why would the one's in control want to tell people this?
 
Quite opposite. The biggest lie is when you mix the truth with the lies and it becomes so much harder to figure out what is what. Church teaches that you have free will but you have to use it to do what we tell you to do or God will send you to "hell".
 
Maverick60 said:
Haha. Alright, thanks then. I guess... :cheers:
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Lol. It sounds crappy, but there's not really any other way of saying it. I agree, noone should attempt to force their beliefs on anyone else, but they are completely free to think that the other party is wrong. Just like atheists think that believers have it wrong, the reverse is also true.
 
Maverick60 said:
Alright, but thats also including people like myself into your beliefs. Thats where Im confused. How can the bible include non believers?

What you said earlier that the bible says, "Without recognition of this and a true belief in this, we (being imperfect, no matter how good of people we think we are) are without God's grace and will be punished with hell." that tells me that all Christians consider me hellbound, instead of allowing me to believe what I want. Because by saying that Im definitely going to hell for not believing, is forcing your beliefs on me, if I believe or not. Ill just never understand that.
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it's ying and yang, for there to be hot there must be cold, fat and thin, big and small, for there to be belief there must be non-belief.

for there to be good there must be evil, heaven and hell, etc etc

you don't have to understand it mav, no one does entirely, you can choose to understand that you don't understand to get an understanding, understand?
 
ozarkaBRAND said:
I don't think that makes sense though, not in this particular instance. If people are even more apt to believe that their salvation is completely out of their hands, don't you think that it would drive down church attendance? Why would the one's in control want to tell people this?
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oz, i don't know man, i only go to church for weddings and funerals. sing amazing grace, say the lords prayer and get out of there! lol
 
For any of those really interested in discovering if God exists..

If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will forsake you." 2 Chronicles18:2

I had my doubts at one time. It is easy to be a non believer. I read this and then decided to try and find God. I did.
 
ozarkaBRAND said:
I don't know about a believer not being allowed to let someone continue to be an atheist. In reality (well, reality as far as Christianity is concerned, and what I believe) it's really not up to a person whether or not they believe or do not. Believers are pre-destined by God to know Him and believe in Him, and His Son, and non-believers are destined to be non-believers.
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Then aren't non-believers pre-destined to go to hell? If so what is the point in that, or maybe I am getting this wrong.
 
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