Guest viewing limit reached
  • You have reached the maximum number of guest views allowed
  • Please register below to remove this limitation

Limit Toxicity...Maximize Gains

nattydisaster

nattydisaster

PESCIENCE.com
Here are my two methods to limit toxicity and maximize gains. I have heard of good results on another forum with method two, although im sure a lot of you will be against it.

METHOD 1:

Day 1-10 - Superdrol (10-20mg)
Day 10-30 (or longer) - Epistane (30-40mg)
Standard PCT

METHOD 2: I will be attempting this method since the transdermal test didnt work.

Day 1-10 - Superdrol (1-7, 10mg -- 8-10 20mg)
Day 10-30 - Epistane (10-20, 30mg -- 20-30, 40mg)
Start PCT Day After Last Pill:
Week 1: 40mg Nolva, 25mg ATD EOD, 10mg Epistane ed
Week 2: 30mg Nolva, 25mg ATD EOD, 10mg Epistane eod
Week 3: 20mg Nolva, 25mg ATD EOD, 10mg Epistane eod
Week 4: 20mg Nolva, 25mg ATD EOD, 10mg Epistane eod
Week 5: 10mg Nolva, 25mg ATD ED

This is similar to the dbol PCT method some of you may have heard. This would be more effective that the dbol pct since it is very androgenic, less anabolic than dbol. I'll try it out, let you all know what happens. Starting in 2-3 weeks once i get my havoc. I dont think havoc is getting banned, right?
 
My goal with method two will be to gain and keep 10-12 pounds. This is what i gained with a three week SD cycle. Im hoping this yields less toxic. It only will if epi REALLY IS less toxic. Getting blood tested so we'll see. The method is supposed to allow all of you body's natural levels return to normal, and your HTPA to be at very minimal suppression compared to when on cycle. Then, during 5th week, the suppression should be nearly gone, and no gains have been lost.

Like i said, I spoke with a mod on another forum, who went from 180-261 in two years. He only ever took Test/deca/dbol, and never went past 1000mg of test. Kept regular doses. He said he never lost anything from any cycle, and never was "off" everything but six weeks, but always had great sex drive and everything, even during pct.

He now has not even touched a weight in 1.5 years, and still maintains 245lbs at 12% BF. (I saw pics to prove it all).

This is my prohormone-wannabe mirror cycle.
 
nattydisaster said:
Like i said, I spoke with a mod on another forum, who went from 180-261 in two years. He only ever took Test/deca/dbol, and never went past 1000mg of test. Kept regular doses. He said he never lost anything from any cycle, and never was "off" everything but six weeks, but always had great sex drive and everything, even during pct.

He now has not even touched a weight in 1.5 years, and still maintains 245lbs at 12% BF. (I saw pics to prove it all).

This is my prohormone-wannabe mirror cycle.
Click to expand...

Could you explain this part a little more? Details of this other person's two years of cycling? Did this person do lite "PCT" while on several times over the two years or something?

How do you get from two years of T/Deca/Dbol to several weeks of superdrol and havoc? I'm not sure I understand how you feel that what you laid out is an oral equivalent...do you plan to go back to week 1 after you've finished week 5 of PCT and continue to do this over long periods of time?

Not criticizing, just interested and curious about your reasoning....
 
I think you're trying too hard to think out of the box. Start with Superdrol, taper off whilst tapering onto Epistane and then simply cut it off and begin your standard PCT with a SERM. All whilst taking staple supplements and liver support supplements.

Week 1 : SD 20mg
Week 2 : SD 10mg, E 20mg
Week 3 : E 30mg
Week 4 : E 40mg
Week 5 : SERM xxmg
Week 6 : SERM xxmg
Week 7 : SERM xxmg
Week 8 : SERM xxmg

Btw is it Havoc or Epistane? Even you seem a tad confused...

As for this dude that basically went year round, good for him and all but sex drive when off != healthy HPTA.
 
tilerbreaker said:
Could you explain this part a little more? Details of this other person's two years of cycling? Did this person do lite "PCT" while on several times over the two years or something?

How do you get from two years of T/Deca/Dbol to several weeks of superdrol and havoc? I'm not sure I understand how you feel that what you laid out is an oral equivalent...do you plan to go back to week 1 after you've finished week 5 of PCT and continue to do this over long periods of time?

Not criticizing, just interested and curious about your reasoning....
Click to expand...

I thought i provided a lot of detail...as much as you would need. He did a PCT ever 12-15 weeks, but a dbol PCT, like the PCT i have shown with epistane, instead his was dbol. After the pct, he would take 4-6 weeks off, and start a whole other test/deca/dbol cycle again, and keep repeating this.

I wasnt trying to make my cycle like his, i was trying to make my PCT like his. I do not plan to go back to week one after finishing my PCT. I plan to just run it once. The method is to limit size lost.

I once read something that made a lot of sense to me. If someone runs a cycle for 10 weeks, and goes from 180 to 205 in those 10 weeks, and then starts PCT, they will most likely only stay at about 190 is they are lucky after PCT.

BUT, if you were to instead, stay on for 6 months or so, and go from 180-205 in the first 15 weeks, and then MAINTAIN that 205 for the second 15 weeks, because your body is at the same weight for so long, it starts to adapt to that being its normal weight, and it makes the weight a lot easier to keep.


"" Story from another board"""

I have ran two cycle in my life. A 10 week test cycle, in which i gained 25 pounds from, and lost 15 in PCT.

The second, was a 25 week test cycle, along with deca for the first 12 weeks. I started the cycle at 180. At the end of the 14th week, about when the deca was out of me, i took that weight, and decided to maintain the weight. I was 202lbs. I maintained 202 pounds and lost some BF, gained a lot of strength, and just was on test at 750mg until week 25. Once week 27 hit (test was out of me), i started a normal nolva PCT. At the end of my PCT i was 200lbs. I had only lost 2 lbs, probably water. 2 months after my PCT was over, my weigh was at 198 consistantly. I was hardly training and dieting correctly. My BF had very little increase as well.

Another two months after this my weight was still at 198. I got mono from lack of sleep, and was really sick for 2 weeks. After my illness i had no appetite, and had managed to lose 20lbs. It was horrible. After i lost the weight i noticed my body acting weird after meals. I went to the Dr to get a blood test, and he said i had hypogylcemia, because my body was naturally producing the insulin levels of someone 20lbs heavier than I was at the time.

He set me up on a diet to get my weight back, and ebcause of this, in a months time, i gained 12 of the 20lbs lost back. I then got bored and did a 3 week mdrol cycle, but, i could have gone the rest of the way and been at my normal weight, and probably should have.


""" end Story"""
 
Ziricote said:
I think you're trying too hard to think out of the box. Start with Superdrol, taper off whilst tapering onto Epistane and then simply cut it off and begin your standard PCT with a SERM. All whilst taking staple supplements and liver support supplements.

Week 1 : SD 20mg
Week 2 : SD 10mg, E 20mg
Week 3 : E 30mg
Week 4 : E 40mg
Week 5 : SERM xxmg
Week 6 : SERM xxmg
Week 7 : SERM xxmg
Week 8 : SERM xxmg

Btw is it Havoc or Epistane? Even you seem a tad confused...

As for this dude that basically went year round, good for him and all but sex drive when off != healthy HPTA.
Click to expand...

What do you think about adding SD to the middle of an epistane cycle? i only have 16 pills of original SD left...Ive been dosing E 30mg/day for 16 days now...u think its too toxic or just about the same, I wont be stacking the SD and E just replacing the SD with E (I've done SD before and things went fine no sides, and with the E cycle now no sides either)
 
nattydisaster said:
I thought i provided a lot of detail...as much as you would need. He did a PCT ever 12-15 weeks, but a dbol PCT, like the PCT i have shown with epistane, instead his was dbol. After the pct, he would take 4-6 weeks off, and start a whole other test/deca/dbol cycle again, and keep repeating this.

I wasnt trying to make my cycle like his, i was trying to make my PCT like his. I do not plan to go back to week one after finishing my PCT. I plan to just run it once. The method is to limit size lost.

I once read something that made a lot of sense to me. If someone runs a cycle for 10 weeks, and goes from 180 to 205 in those 10 weeks, and then starts PCT, they will most likely only stay at about 190 is they are lucky after PCT.

BUT, if you were to instead, stay on for 6 months or so, and go from 180-205 in the first 15 weeks, and then MAINTAIN that 205 for the second 15 weeks, because your body is at the same weight for so long, it starts to adapt to that being its normal weight, and it makes the weight a lot easier to keep.
Click to expand...

So basically you are talking about staying ON for an extended period of time to maintain and consolidate the gains made from the first part of your cycle. So the epi isn't really a "PCT" it is just a different compound you are using to try to keep your strength and gains up. I think if you were going to do this, you should probably just stay on havoc for weeks 2-8 or something, then I would do a strong PCT at the end (with your SERM tapering into an AI) and then go off for a long while before you do anything again.


"" Story from another board"""

I have ran two cycle in my life. A 10 week test cycle, in which i gained 25 pounds from, and lost 15 in PCT.

The second, was a 25 week test cycle, along with deca for the first 12 weeks. I started the cycle at 180. At the end of the 14th week, about when the deca was out of me, i took that weight, and decided to maintain the weight. I was 202lbs. I maintained 202 pounds and lost some BF, gained a lot of strength, and just was on test at 750mg until week 25. Once week 27 hit (test was out of me), i started a normal nolva PCT. At the end of my PCT i was 200lbs. I had only lost 2 lbs, probably water. 2 months after my PCT was over, my weigh was at 198 consistantly. I was hardly training and dieting correctly. My BF had very little increase as well.

Another two months after this my weight was still at 198. I got mono from lack of sleep, and was really sick for 2 weeks. After my illness i had no appetite, and had managed to lose 20lbs. It was horrible. After i lost the weight i noticed my body acting weird after meals. I went to the Dr to get a blood test, and he said i had hypogylcemia, because my body was naturally producing the insulin levels of someone 20lbs heavier than I was at the time.

He set me up on a diet to get my weight back, and ebcause of this, in a months time, i gained 12 of the 20lbs lost back. I then got bored and did a 3 week mdrol cycle, but, i could have gone the rest of the way and been at my normal weight, and probably should have.


""" end Story"""
Click to expand...

Is this the story of the person from your original post? I don't see the part about him getting to 261...how did that happen?

I also don't understand how test/deca is equivalent to superdrol/epithio, unless I'm totally missing something about their properties. I don't have experience with this, but I'd think a more equivalent OTC cycle would be based around something like a 4-AD/trenadrol stack for 8-12 weeks.

Hopefully someone can correct me if I'm mistaken.

(And natty-d, hope you don't think I'm being confrontational...not my intention at all, so hopefully that's not how it comes off. Just interested in what you're trying to do...good luck).
 
nattydisaster said:
Here are my two methods to limit toxicity and maximize gains. I have heard of good results on another forum with method two, although im sure a lot of you will be against it.

METHOD 1:

Day 1-10 - Superdrol (10-20mg)
Day 10-30 (or longer) - Epistane (30-40mg)
Standard PCT

METHOD 2: I will be attempting this method since the transdermal test didnt work.

Day 1-10 - Superdrol (1-7, 10mg -- 8-10 20mg)
Day 10-30 - Epistane (10-20, 30mg -- 20-30, 40mg)
Start PCT Day After Last Pill:
Week 1: 40mg Nolva, 25mg ATD EOD, 10mg Epistane ed
Week 2: 30mg Nolva, 25mg ATD EOD, 10mg Epistane eod
Week 3: 20mg Nolva, 25mg ATD EOD, 10mg Epistane eod
Week 4: 20mg Nolva, 25mg ATD EOD, 10mg Epistane eod
Week 5: 10mg Nolva, 25mg ATD ED

This is similar to the dbol PCT method some of you may have heard. This would be more effective that the dbol pct since it is very androgenic, less anabolic than dbol. I'll try it out, let you all know what happens. Starting in 2-3 weeks once i get my havoc. I dont think havoc is getting banned, right?
Click to expand...

you kind of lost me a bit but im gonna go with the KISS method, i dont know of this dbol PCT you speak of but here we go:

KISS = keep it simple stupid...and it means just that.

if you want to keep toxicity low (im assuming you are talking about liver, etc) then stick to one oral for 4 weeks. i would recommend havoc over an SD clone, nice clean gains and no estrogen. PLENTY of people have gained 10-12lb on either SD or havoc so what makes you think you have to stack the two, just more sides. remember, KISS. as far as toxicity goes, try using Cycle Support and Liver Longer (TUDCA) to help protect your body. thats the cream of the crop for on cycle meds, specially if your worried about toxicity (which i dont blame you). just keep a good diet and workout routine going and there is no reason that you can gain 10-12lb solid pounds on havoc in 4 weeks. i like to typically stay around 4 weeks for most methylated orals because that is when the bulk of your gains are. good luck

o yea, drop the epistane during PCT and just stick to the nolva and ATD.
 
Look what I found...this must be what the OP was talking about:

The Dianabol Bridge

Q: My buddy mentioned the concept of "Dbol bridging" to me. It involves taking only 10 milligrams per day while you're between cycles to preserve muscle while letting the testicles get back to normal. What do you think of this idea? I was thinking of trying it so I keep more of my gains next time. Does it have merit?

A: I'm not the type of person to summarily dismiss an idea without fully investigating it, but I do not feel there is a whole lot of solid logic behind the Dianabol bridge concept. To begin with, the suggested dose of 10 milligrams is really not all that small. In fact, it should provide a significantly stronger effect than your normal endogenous levels of testosterone. A dose of only five milligrams will probably be more than sufficient to supplement your daily androgen levels. That's why the bridge works for the people trying it. They are essentially continuing to take a strong exogenous steroid in a dose high enough to have an effect on muscle mass. But your body will surely notice the 10 milligrams too, and will not return its natural testosterone production until the dose is removed.

In all honestly, there are no studies easily found looking at this exact dose and how it affects natural testosterone levels. I'm sure one or two are out there somewhere, to be found for the looking. But everything I have seen on other steroids, even with relatively low doses of Anavar and Primobolan, shows that suppression of endogenous testosterone production occurs at low doses, much lower than what 10 milligrams of Dianabol is going to provide. So, Dbol bridging works, but it works in a sense that you are not really coming off of steroids. You are just trading a big cycle for a smaller one. Or, more basically, you are just staying on all the time.

William Llewellyn
Click to expand...
 
tilerbreaker said:
So basically you are talking about staying ON for an extended period of time to maintain and consolidate the gains made from the first part of your cycle. So the epi isn't really a "PCT" it is just a different compound you are using to try to keep your strength and gains up. I think if you were going to do this, you should probably just stay on havoc for weeks 2-8 or something, then I would do a strong PCT at the end (with your SERM tapering into an AI) and then go off for a long while before you do anything again.




Is this the story of the person from your original post? I don't see the part about him getting to 261...how did that happen?

NO THIS IS NOT THE SAME PERSON

I also don't understand how test/deca is equivalent to superdrol/epithio, unless I'm totally missing something about their properties. I never said anything about them being similar, at all, i said my PCT idea was similar to his, and i said what cycles he ran. i was not saying my cycle was similar in any way. I don't have experience with this, but I'd think a more equivalent OTC cycle would be based around something like a 4-AD/trenadrol stack for 8-12 weeks. Is 4 AD even still available? I dont think so.

Hopefully someone can correct me if I'm mistaken.

(And natty-d, hope you don't think I'm being confrontational...not my intention at all, so hopefully that's not how it comes off. Just interested in what you're trying to do...good luck) I know, i like it that somebody is interested :).
Click to expand...


Replies in bold above
 
tilerbreaker said:
Look what I found...this must be what the OP was talking about:
Click to expand...

yes, thats the dbol bridge. I was using epistane instead. It seemed an even better idea than dbol based on the dbol theory. Something very androgenic and less anabolic is the best thing to use for this...what could be better than epistane?
 
i have seen anavar used at 10mg between test cycles as well Dbol (just never called Dbol PCT) but i believe anavar is superior. this would be much better because it is not methylated, wont completely shutdown your LH, SHBG, etc, and doesnt convert to estrogen. Dbol, even at 10mg, wont give you the bloat usually associated with it but it will still more suppressive than anavar and does have some aromatasing associated with it which can be problematic for some people. Dbol/Anavar bridging is also typically used between test cycles to help maintain size, not 4 week orals. good luck with whatever you decide but i still see the KISS philosophy working the best ;)
 
ah yes this is true, let me rephrase. although it is methylated to be taken orally it isnt harsh like most methylated orals are.

i was thinking of primobolan when typing that up as i am debating to add anavar or primo in my next cycle and primo keeps sticking out in my head :woohoo: .... back to the topic at hand, thanks fellas btw.
 
ralph4u2c said:
ah yes this is true, let me rephrase. although it is methylated to be taken orally it isnt harsh like most methylated orals are.

i was thinking of primobolan when typing that up as i am debating to add anavar or primo in my next cycle and primo keeps sticking out in my head :woohoo: .... back to the topic at hand, thanks fellas btw.
Click to expand...

Anavar.

95% of primo is fake, underdosed test. Anavar ftw.
 
There is no excuse for gaining 25lbs on a 12 weeks cycle and then losing 15lbs of it, thats just poor pct, diet. I would not take advice from anyone who can't even keep 50% of their gains from a 12weeker. I don't see any need to reinvent the wheel here. Gains kept are decided by the compound run (ie: anadrol vs. anavar), PCT, Maintaining diet. But by all means give it a try man, I'm interested.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top