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My take on IGF-1

pumbertot said:
i know this is aimed at Grunt but I share the same views and its from experience as well as what the 'Master'(Grunt) has taught me.
I would argue if it didnt stay local then why is the injected muscle growing while the whole body isnt??? see im running just peptides, no gear and been off for a while so no distorted results, I know what the igf has done when i rasn it alone and then what happened when run with mfg. all localised growth, not systemic. muscles I have sited have been catching up with rest of body, sorry for me its been 100% localised and pretty much zero systemic growth.
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I learned all my IGF stuff from Grunt.... As far as local / whole body goes...I don't know I'm stil learning, but I'd say a good example is gut growth. No one is injecting there intestines right...but too much and those receptors pick it up. That might be an example.

I decided to try out a different trainer this year, not for any negitive issues with Grunt...he did an awesome job. I just thought another angle might be nice.

DP's very well respected but where his level of expertise with IGF fits with the "Masters" is unknown by me.

Thanks for our reply
Coop
 
bobbyn said:
I learned all my IGF stuff from Grunt.... As far as local / whole body goes...I don't know I'm stil learning, but I'd say a good example is gut growth. No one is injecting there intestines right...but too much and those receptors pick it up. That might be an example.

I decided to try out a different trainer this year, not for any negitive issues with Grunt...he did an awesome job. I just thought another angle might be nice.

DP's very well respected but where his level of expertise with IGF fits with the "Masters" is unknown by me.

Thanks for our reply
Coop
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its all good bro.
see yes i agree with the systemic idea with gut growth but I feel this is when you are exceeding dosages of 50-60mcg. thats not a magic number and of course is differnt from person to person but I think when you are shooting 100mcg+ at a time then the excess(that not used locally) will go systemic and eventually lead to Coleman intestines.
I think you will find the pros that are excessive are the ones with the greatest sides.
even back in his days when he won the Canada Pro cup but was lousy in the Mr 'O' Coleman was known to be excessive with his drug usage and I think this would certainly apply to his igf-1 usage.
 
bobbyn said:
Hey Grunt,

Hope all is well by you....

DP's methods call for much smaller amounts of IGF. 10-20 mcg...and does not call for bi-lateral pinning. He says it doesn't stay local. I take this as no local effect....

He also says pin 7 days a week pinning at the time of day.
4 weeks on 2 weeks off

I know this is not what you taught me....and that this is your expertise.

Can you comment?

Thanks Bro
Coop
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Hey buddy glad to see you on this fine board, although the handle threw me off for a bit.

I am very familiar with Dave Palumbo's view on IGF-1, as he and I came up with our methods for using it at about the same time, and I understand the appeal of working with a big name guy like him and getting some face-to-face time, which obviously would not have been possible with me.

Fundamentally, I have always agreed with DP that huge doses of LR3 are not in any way necessary or even beneficial. Putting things into perspective, 20mcg ED is 140mcg a week, similar to 50mcg 3 times a week. My approach is different in that I find studies stating that loading a muscle upregulate the IGF-1 receptors quite markedly but for only a short duration. As such, pinning ASAP after training a muscle, and directly inside that muscle, is the basis of my protocol.

As to whether or not the product has any local benefit at all, the answer is ABSOLUTELY CLEAR AND INFINITELY SIMPLE. When a molecule must undergo a transformation before it is active, it has no local effect. When it is active as such as it is injected, then it has a local effect. GH has local effects. Estered AAS have no local effects. Esterless AAS have local effects. Simple as that. How much local effect and how to measure them, now that's another can of worms entirely. But the simple fact remains that if something it in its effective form when it is injected, it will have a local effect.

Personally I don't think the bellies on the pros are from LR3 abuse, but much more likely from abuse of the GH & Insulin stack. Now GH & slin convert to hIGF-1 so the difference is slim to none. "GH gut" remains IMO a definite possibility with LR3 although I have stumbled across a definite antidote to such midsection problems.

DP's approach has its merits but it fails to take advantage of the local effects potentiated by immediate-postworkout injections and that IMO is where my way is better.

We'll see about getting me on the stage of the Ironman in 2010 and then you can say hey I worked with that guy, he's an IFBB pro and so on... ;)
 
Grunt76 said:
Hey buddy glad to see you on this fine board, although the handle threw me off for a bit.

I am very familiar with Dave Palumbo's view on IGF-1, as he and I came up with our methods for using it at about the same time, and I understand the appeal of working with a big name guy like him and getting some face-to-face time, which obviously would not have been possible with me.

Fundamentally, I have always agreed with DP that huge doses of LR3 are not in any way necessary or even beneficial. Putting things into perspective, 20mcg ED is 140mcg a week, similar to 50mcg 3 times a week. My approach is different in that I find studies stating that loading a muscle upregulate the IGF-1 receptors quite markedly but for only a short duration. As such, pinning ASAP after training a muscle, and directly inside that muscle, is the basis of my protocol.

As to whether or not the product has any local benefit at all, the answer is ABSOLUTELY CLEAR AND INFINITELY SIMPLE. When a molecule must undergo a transformation before it is active, it has no local effect. When it is active as such as it is injected, then it has a local effect. GH has local effects. Estered AAS have no local effects. Esterless AAS have local effects. Simple as that. How much local effect and how to measure them, now that's another can of worms entirely. But the simple fact remains that if something it in its effective form when it is injected, it will have a local effect.

Personally I don't think the bellies on the pros are from LR3 abuse, but much more likely from abuse of the GH & Insulin stack. Now GH & slin convert to hIGF-1 so the difference is slim to none. "GH gut" remains IMO a definite possibility with LR3 although I have stumbled across a definite antidote to such midsection problems.

DP's approach has its merits but it fails to take advantage of the local effects potentiated by immediate-postworkout injections and that IMO is where my way is better.

We'll see about getting me on the stage of the Ironman in 2010 and then you can say hey I worked with that guy, he's an IFBB pro and so on... ;)
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Hey Bro

Yeah the handle is an old handle....I gota change it.

First off....not to sounfd gay....but I love ya bro. What I learned from you can't be measured with green back....it's invaluable and I'll be back :o)

As you know it's tough to say exactally whats working and whats not when your doing a combination of things but I feel the bilateral worked for me last year so I will be sticking to it.

His reconstitution of it is very different also....maybe you could take a look. He get's the delutant in right away. I know, I know 1cc per 1000mcg :o)

Take a peek at this when you have time....you know me and numbers ARRRGGG. It's from EST...I was hoping you'd grace us with your expertise over there

Invalid Link Removed

As far as the Ironman goes...that's a great goal....you get up there and I'll be screaming in the audience for you bro.

Coop

i
 
Strange Pain

Perhaps you guys may be able to answer a question for me about a mysterious pain after bilaterally pinning my lower quads after some heavy leg presses with 20mcg. I have no pain on exercising and have never had any real knee issues, but three days later, I got this strange pain in my knee when I bend it all the way. At first, I could not describe it, but it feels like I am stretching a scab that is trying to heal. With further bending it “burns”. After a little working it and stretching and bending, it goes away. This has been going on for ten days. I did find if I massage the area where I pinned, I get a line of pain up under my knee cap the same as what bending causes. I am half way through my first mg and following Grunt’s protocol of E3D. I used a slin pin with a half inch needle. I diluted the AA about 4 to 1 with BW right before pinning. Perhaps I pinned a nerve? Any thoughts?
 
longrob said:
Perhaps you guys may be able to answer a question for me about a mysterious pain after bilaterally pinning my lower quads after some heavy leg presses with 20mcg. I have no pain on exercising and have never had any real knee issues, but three days later, I got this strange pain in my knee when I bend it all the way. At first, I could not describe it, but it feels like I am stretching a scab that is trying to heal. With further bending it “burns”. After a little working it and stretching and bending, it goes away. This has been going on for ten days. I did find if I massage the area where I pinned, I get a line of pain up under my knee cap the same as what bending causes. I am half way through my first mg and following Grunt’s protocol of E3D. I used a slin pin with a half inch needle. I diluted the AA about 4 to 1 with BW right before pinning. Perhaps I pinned a nerve? Any thoughts?
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Have you had any sort of knee trauma/issues in the past? I experienced some ribcage cartilage 'aching' the first few days of my IGF protocol. May be finishing up the healing process.
 
bobbyn I'm close to your age 42 and I have used IGF-1 LR3 many times over the years including Dave's IGF-1 LR3 dosing scheme.

I probably used 10mg per day for 6 months once...and I liked that protocol almost exclusively for the insulin-like effect...obviously very subtle...more like better than any OTC Glucose Disposal agent you'll ever use but far from the effect of exogenic insulin itself. It helped me stay lean and I don't think that ever stopped being effective.

No protocol has ever grown my gut including Daves & higher dosing schemes and I would think if that was going to happen it would have shown up by now.

I did not use Daves reconstitution method or his freezer storage...I used Acetic Acid & the refrig. for storage a vial at a time...again I don't think it ever stopped being effective.

If you want any chance of direct stimulation for muscle growth...especially local...Dave's protocol probably won't be effective...Grunt's protocol w/ quality IGF-1 LR3 is probably the best you're going to ever be able to do in that regard.
 
datBtrue said:
bobbyn I'm close to your age 42 and I have used IGF-1 LR3 many times over the years including Dave's IGF-1 LR3 dosing scheme.

I probably used 10mg per day for 6 months once...and I liked that protocol almost exclusively for the insulin-like effect...obviously very subtle...more like better than any OTC Glucose Disposal agent you'll ever use but far from the effect of exogenic insulin itself. It helped me stay lean and I don't think that ever stopped being effective.

No protocol has ever grown my gut including Daves & higher dosing schemes and I would think if that was going to happen it would have shown up by now.

I did not use Daves reconstitution method or his freezer storage...I used Acetic Acid & the refrig. for storage a vial at a time...again I don't think it ever stopped being effective.

If you want any chance of direct stimulation for muscle growth...especially local...Dave's protocol probably won't be effective...Grunt's protocol w/ quality IGF-1 LR3 is probably the best you're going to ever be able to do in that regard.
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First of all, lol at your "source list."
This is a very good comparison, as I was wondering about different benefits of different protocols. I was thinking of using Grunt's protocol during AAS cycles/solo, and Palumbo's method for PCT. I remember reading in this thread that an ED protocol works well with pct, and recently saw a study that showed significant improvement in testicular atrophy in rats. I do wonder if there would be more benefit to using a slightly higher dose everyday during pct,, maybe 30 mcg? I also wonder if a subq inject might be better during pct, just to get any systemic benefit on an out-of-whack system... if that makes any sense. Am I way off base here?

Oh btw, this thread is one of the most informative I have ever seen on ANY subject, let alone peptides. Much, much thanks to all those who shared experiences and info. Especially the author.
 
Xodus said:
Have you had any sort of knee trauma/issues in the past? I experienced some ribcage cartilage 'aching' the first few days of my IGF protocol. May be finishing up the healing process.
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Thanks for the input Xodus. I admit this is the knee that hurts sometimes when running, but I have not had any trauma, etc. I did think maybe the IGF was healing something, so the pain was a good thing.
 
Carpal Tunnel Side Effect

Let me ask a question, please. I understand it is common to experience carpal tunnel-like symptoms, i.e., tingling in the fingers from LR3IGF-1. I was half way thru a mg, and stopped about 3 weeks ago. I still have some tingling. About how long after stopping IGF will the tingling sensation in my fingers disappear?
 
longrob said:
Let me ask a question, please. I understand it is common to experience carpal tunnel-like symptoms, i.e., tingling in the fingers from LR3IGF-1. I was half way thru a mg, and stopped about 3 weeks ago. I still have some tingling. About how long after stopping IGF will the tingling sensation in my fingers disappear?
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Are you doing GH? I've never had those issue's with IGF. GH over 4iu's a day will bring me those symptoms on fast. I can't do any pulling exercises without using straps

Coop
 
mattikus said:
First of all, lol at your "source list."
This is a very good comparison, as I was wondering about different benefits of different protocols. I was thinking of using Grunt's protocol during AAS cycles/solo, and Palumbo's method for PCT. I remember reading in this thread that an ED protocol works well with pct, and recently saw a study that showed significant improvement in testicular atrophy in rats. I do wonder if there would be more benefit to using a slightly higher dose everyday during pct,, maybe 30 mcg? I also wonder if a subq inject might be better during pct, just to get any systemic benefit on an out-of-whack system... if that makes any sense. Am I way off base here?

Oh btw, this thread is one of the most informative I have ever seen on ANY subject, let alone peptides. Much, much thanks to all those who shared experiences and info. Especially the author.
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Yeah DatBTrue's source post kicks some serious ass! :bow28:

I'm a fan of ED during PCT for the reasons posted above. 20mcg should suffice and yes at that level I wouldn't be too afraid of going sub-Q especially after a workout.
 
bobbyn said:
Are you doing GH? I've never had those issue's with IGF. GH over 4iu's a day will bring me those symptoms on fast. I can't do any pulling exercises without using straps

Coop
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I'm not doing any GH. I thought the finger tingling was an IGF side, but I could be mistaken. I'm using what I suppose is Chinese generic LR3IGF-1 (considering the source). I'm following Grunt's protocol of E3D 30-40 mcg total bilaterally immediately PWO. Only used half of my mg before stopping. However, was doing OTC Sup for old men trying to boost Test and reduce Estrogen with combo of ingredients like chrysin, zinc, nettle, and bioperine. Was taking acetyl-L carnitine, COQ10, and wine extract called resveratrol. but stopped all three weeks ago.
 
longrob said:
I'm not doing any GH. I thought the finger tingling was an IGF side, but I could be mistaken. I'm using what I suppose is Chinese generic LR3IGF-1 (considering the source). I'm following Grunt's protocol of E3D 30-40 mcg total bilaterally immediately PWO. Only used half of my mg before stopping. However, was doing OTC Sup for old men trying to boost Test and reduce Estrogen with combo of ingredients like chrysin, zinc, nettle, and bioperine. Was taking acetyl-L carnitine, COQ10, and wine extract called resveratrol. but stopped all three weeks ago.
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That's a bit strange. Have you gained weight recently? I ask because I get the arms-asleep thing when I'm heavy. At about 225lbs I'm fine but when I get heavier (245 now) I get sleepy arms all the time. Weirdly, I have 2 fingers falling asleep on the right hand and on the left it's the other 3 fingers that fall asleep.
 
Grunt76 said:
That's a bit strange. Have you gained weight recently? I ask because I get the arms-asleep thing when I'm heavy. At about 225lbs I'm fine but when I get heavier (245 now) I get sleepy arms all the time. Weirdly, I have 2 fingers falling asleep on the right hand and on the left it's the other 3 fingers that fall asleep.
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I have not gained any weight. On the bright side, the tingling seems to be going away, along with the strange knee pain.

So the finger tingling/asleep is not an IGF side?
 
longrob said:
...However, was doing OTC Sup for old men trying to boost Test and reduce Estrogen with combo of ingredients like chrysin, zinc, nettle, and bioperine. Was taking acetyl-L carnitine, COQ10, and wine extract called resveratrol. but stopped all three weeks ago.
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Off topic how did the chrysin work out for you...did it lower your estrogen?

If not you might consider making a transdermal chrysin using DMSO (I'm not sure anything else will dissolve it). I can almost guarantee you that chrysin will do nothing for you even in lage doses if taken orally...but it should have a significant effect on estrogen in a properly made transdermal.

If that was just bulk nettle root you used and not a divinil extract then you need a lot of it...like a couple of ground spoon fulls dosed 6 times a day (more than a dozen spoonfulls and maybe as many as 20). I have gotten blood work to show free test increased using this protocol BUT the roughage was too much and I switched to the extract and DS's product for much better ease of use.

Just my 2 cents...it is important to do things correctly so I'm just curious to get your feedback longrob...
 
datBtrue said:
Off topic how did the chrysin work out for you...did it lower your estrogen?

If not you might consider making a transdermal chrysin using DMSO (I'm not sure anything else will dissolve it). I can almost guarantee you that chrysin will do nothing for you even in lage doses if taken orally...but it should have a significant effect on estrogen in a properly made transdermal.

If that was just bulk nettle root you used and not a divinil extract then you need a lot of it...like a couple of ground spoon fulls dosed 6 times a day (more than a dozen spoonfulls and maybe as many as 20). I have gotten blood work to show free test increased using this protocol BUT the roughage was too much and I switched to the extract and DS's product for much better ease of use.

Just my 2 cents...it is important to do things correctly so I'm just curious to get your feedback longrob...
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Thanks for the advice. I doubt the chrysin had much effect because I did not take it for more than 2 wks. I never checked estrogen while using it. The product was praised by the life extensionists, and was probably just hype. Next blood test is scheduled in 4 weeks.

Bioperine was added with chrysin to make it more bio-available, say the advertisement.

I do not know if it was just bulk nettle.
 
Grunt76 said:
Nope, not IGF-1 related.
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Grunt,
Thanks for the clarification; sometimes things are just coincidental.
And thanks for this whole thread in general! I have a few more pages to go to have read it all. I have learned a lot from your years of experience.
 
Is this right.

Add 2cc / each tic = 5mcg
Grunts way Add 1cc / each tic =10mcg
Daves way each tic = 1mcg

Thanks
Coop
Edit/Delete Message
 
longrob said:
Thanks for the advice. I doubt the chrysin had much effect because I did not take it for more than 2 wks. I never checked estrogen while using it. The product was praised by the life extensionists, and was probably just hype. Next blood test is scheduled in 4 weeks.

Bioperine was added with chrysin to make it more bio-available, say the advertisement.

I do not know if it was just bulk nettle.
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Thanks for responding. Since Formestane is now "controlled" in China it has become near impossible to get (fresh batch) and ATD may not be long for this world so I've been looking at some old school ways (that should never become banned) to control estrogen again.

The problem w/ Chrysin is that it may interfere w/ the conversion of T4 to T3... I'm not 100% sure though.

Bioperine could increase the bioavailability of oral Chrysin but probably not enough to matter and I believe that it will increase oxidative stress which has to be countered as well.

As far as Nettle Root...like I told PP...all the ligans in Nettle Root (not the leaf) except one have a binding affinity for SHBG... it is just that one ligan in particular 3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran has a much higher affinity than the others. So that is why the extract "divanil" (which is the primary active in DS Activate) is much more potent & user friendly then just bulk nettle root.

Now back to the topic of the thread...
 
datBtrue said:
Thanks for responding. Since Formestane is now "controlled" in China it has become near impossible to get (fresh batch) and ATD may not be long for this world so I've been looking at some old school ways (that should never become banned) to control estrogen again.

The problem w/ Chrysin is that it may interfere w/ the conversion of T4 to T3... I'm not 100% sure though.

Bioperine could increase the bioavailability of oral Chrysin but probably not enough to matter and I believe that it will increase oxidative stress which has to be countered as well.

As far as Nettle Root...like I told PP...all the ligans in Nettle Root (not the leaf) except one have a binding affinity for SHBG... it is just that one ligan in particular 3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran has a much higher affinity than the others. So that is why the extract "divanil" (which is the primary active in DS Activate) is much more potent & user friendly then just bulk nettle root.

Now back to the topic of the thread...
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i have no trouble getting exemestane from China.
 
pumbertot said:
i thought they would be considered in the same class.
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Hey what makes since to you and me doesn't mean much... Most Chinese manufacturers don't want to take certain risks, especially when their govt. wants a quiet period on "all things it considers hormonal" in these months leading up to the Olympics.

It doesn't mean you can not get it ...it just means it is a lot pricer & the sellers may be previously unknown to you (which adds even more risk to your money)

Formestane by-the-way is not just an AI but it also acts as a prohormone converting to 4-hydroxytestosterone...
 
datBtrue said:
Hey what makes since to you and me doesn't mean much... Most Chinese manufacturers don't want to take certain risks, especially when their govt. wants a quiet period on "all things it considers hormonal" in these months leading up to the Olympics.

It doesn't mean you can not get it ...it just means it is a lot pricer & the sellers may be previously unknown to you (which adds even more risk to your money)

Formestane by-the-way is not just an AI but it also acts as a prohormone converting to 4-hydroxytestosterone...
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yeah matey i read you now loud and clear, just want sure before what you were saying. ;)

didnt know formestane acted differently, hmmm i think i wil grab me some. so you prefer it over exemestane as an AI + mild test booster?
 
pumbertot said:
yeah matey i read you now loud and clear, just want sure before what you were saying. ;)

didnt know formestane acted differently, hmmm i think i wil grab me some. so you prefer it over exemestane as an AI + mild test booster?
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Over exemestane? Hell no!

It is just super fun making transdermals and formestane was OTC so there you go.

I wouldn't divert resources away from purchases of exemestane... no way no how! :)
 
tshaw024 said:
Quick question, at a low dose bi-laterally do you need to worry about insulin levels becoming a health risk? I'm talking about IGF-1 not all this other stuff people are talking about.
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I don't think you'd ever have to worry about actually going hypo to a dangerous level with IFG. I've measured my blood sugar at various times after injecting IGF and it has never dropped to a level to be concerned about.
 
pumbertot said:
im not grunt, lol of course, but yes it does appear to act on receptors in the testes.
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I would say yes it seems to regenerate the testicles, but it is most definitely NOT a testosterone-releasing agent. At best it will make your engines in tip-top shape, but I strongly doubt it will increase your test levels above your normal levels. This would be why it is soooo good in PCT.

I want to find a test animal whose testes are a victim of hcg abuse and see what IGF-1 does... :)
 
Grunt76 said:
I would say yes it seems to regenerate the testicles, but it is most definitely NOT a testosterone-releasing agent. At best it will make your engines in tip-top shape, but I strongly doubt it will increase your test levels above your normal levels. This would be why it is soooo good in PCT.

I want to find a test animal whose testes are a victim of hcg abuse and see what IGF-1 does... :)
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yes i have to agree with this. but would be interesting if some did get their free test measured before and after igf to see if there is any increase at all.
 
Grunt76 said:
I would say yes it seems to regenerate the testicles, but it is most definitely NOT a testosterone-releasing agent. At best it will make your engines in tip-top shape, but I strongly doubt it will increase your test levels above your normal levels. This would be why it is soooo good in PCT.

I want to find a test animal whose testes are a victim of hcg abuse and see what IGF-1 does... :)
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I'm debating going IT (Intra Testicular) and see what happens! :jaw:

Somatomedin C/insulin-like growth factor 1: an intratesticular differentiative factor of Leydig cells?

Morera AM, Chauvin MA, de Peretti E, Binoux M, Benahmed M.
Laboratoire de Biochimie, Hôpital Sainte-Eugénie, Centre Hospitalier Lyon Sud, Pierre-Bénite, France.

By using immature porcine Sertoli cells cultured in serum-free defined medium, we report that medium conditioned by Sertoli cells contained immunoreactive somatomedin C/insulin-like growth factor 1 (SmC/IGF1) measured following acidic gel filtration. The release of this immunoreactive SmC/IGF1 was slightly increased following Sertoli cell treatment with fibroblast growth factor but not with follicle-stimulating hormone or growth hormone. On the other hand, human biosynthetic SmC/IGF1 exerts a potent stimulatory effect on Leydig cell differentiated functions such as LH/hCG-binding (greater than 4-fold) and hCG-stimulated testosterone secretion (greater than 15-fold). This effect was dose and time dependent and the maximal increase of Leydig cell function was observed following 48 h treatment with 50 ng/ml SmC/IGF1. The steroidogenic action of the peptide was not related to Leydig cell growth since both cell number and 3H-thymidine incorporation into DNA were not or slightly (approximately equal to 1.5-fold) increased in the optimal conditions with SmC/IGF1 treatment (100 ng/ml for 48 h). Moreover, the concomitant treatment of Leydig cells by both arabinoside C (10(-5) M), a DNA synthesis inhibitor, and SmC/IGF1 did not modify the stimulating effect of the peptide on LH/hCG-binding and hCG-stimulated testosterone production. Taken together, the present findings support the concept that Sertoli cell derived SmC/IGF1 could be a potent regulator of Leydig cell differentiated functions.
 
F'in OUCH! Man that would be a tough call on how much bac water to dilute with..... not enough and the AA is gonna sting like a *****, and too much and well, swell the balls up with water doesn't sound too damned comfortable either!

Sure hope your joking!
 
Just curious to see if anyone else has noticed porlonged muscle soreness with IGF-1 use? I'm not talking about just soreness at the the site or that feeling afterword but actual muscle soreness.

As far as the increase in test goes, I have noticed a definite increase in body hair since using. Also more short tempered, then again I am a prick anyway. :aargh:
 
KurtisWicked said:
Just curious to see if anyone else has noticed porlonged muscle soreness with IGF-1 use? I'm not talking about just soreness at the the site or that feeling afterword but actual muscle soreness.

As far as the increase in test goes, I have noticed a definite increase in body hair since using. Also more short tempered, then again I am a prick anyway. :aargh:
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Definitely getting it from pMGF, more like extended DOMS. Didn't notice it on IGF solo.
 
yes same here with both pegmgf and non-peg. hurts sometimes up to a week. and the level of pain is higher, man I usually have bad pain in the quads but now I cant walk!
 
would taking a growth hormone releaser such as usp labs powerfull be a waste to use while on 20 to 40 mcg of ig1 lr3, 3x weekly ?
 
I’m planning to take IGF-1 or MGF soon, so I’ve been reading the posts from here and from another boards. I have no doubt IGF1 is powerful to increase muscle mass, but is it really a long-term safe drug?

I saw old posts where people were concerned about IGF-1 and cancer. Well, some studies tell about a relation between many kinds of tumors and high levels of IGF1. Some of them do not point out the IGF1 as a cancerous substance by itself, but IGF1 can “open a door to” or unchain a cancerous cells proliferation. See one of these studies: Invalid Link Removed

Well, this was a personal note.



My question to this thread it´s about the muscle gains with IGF1, are they permanent after quitting?

All the best
 
Sergio Rossi said:
I’m planning to take IGF-1 or MGF soon, so I’ve been reading the posts from here and from another boards. I have no doubt IGF1 is powerful to increase muscle mass, but is it really a long-term safe drug?

I saw old posts where people were concerned about IGF-1 and cancer. Well, some studies tell about a relation between many kinds of tumors and high levels of IGF1. Some of them do not point out the IGF1 as a cancerous substance by itself, but IGF1 can “open a door to” or unchain a cancerous cells proliferation. See one of these studies: Invalid Link Removed

Well, this was a personal note.



My question to this thread it´s about the muscle gains with IGF1, are they permanent after quitting?

All the best
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IGF does not cause cancer, nor is it cancerous.

IGF is responsible for proliferation/differentiation of cells in various tissues of the body. Cancerous cells of such tissues also have IGF receptors and will be agonized the same as healthy cells. Thus, if you ALREADY have any tumors or cancer in your body, it's proliferation can be drastically increased by higher IGF-1 levels.

FYI- there are tests you can take to see if you are predisposed to cancer and have a high risk factor in running such a protocol.

On your other question, if you are refering to IGF-1 induced hyperplasia, then yes it is permanent, as you will not lose the new muscle fibers. Still these fibers will need to undergo hypertrophy like the rest of them if your gains are to be "noticed".
Example: A guy with 16" arms could have a denser cross section of muscle fiber count than another guy with 20" arms, however the 20" guys individual fibers are bigger due to hypertrophy.
 
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