Banana - after training
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Neil5585
Member
msucurt
Well-known member
yea, but also many of the articles on PWO nutrition were based on subjects that havent eaten in 40plus hours or something along those lines. I agree that PWO nutrition is somewhat important, but not to the point of eating whey + simple sugs 15 mins afer u workout or u are really hurting yourself.
Basically, your body doesnt go, hey, u arent feeding me malto...im not growing. I did the whole dextrose thing too...and also just ate oats PWO and saw absolutely no difference. NONE.
Hell, i have waited an hour after working out and then ate my PWO meal of chicken, rice , and veggies......again, saw no big difference in body comp or fatigue.
Nightwanderer
Well-known member
might want to watch the gatorade, it's got high fructose corn syrup in it.
MentalTwitch
Well-known member
Quiet you, WRONG! BAN! haha
I like the x2 idea, i usally do simple and then 3-45min later somehting whole grain. I am not sure it helps but i feel less, depleted after this method. Compared to eating just some of one or the other 15-20min after workout.
I used to try out alot of this ideaology when i was starting. I do think it matters, but im dumb and have no arguemtn other than how my own body reacts, which is what everyone else here has too...
(to an extent of course)
msucurt
Well-known member
true...actually meant to say gatorade powder, but regardless, we are splitting hairs if that is the only HFCS u are consuming regularly.
Nightwanderer
Well-known member
my bad, it's G2, which oddly is the low calorie version.
Nightwanderer
Well-known member
yeah I don't care if it's just a drink here and there, but i know a lot of gym rats pretty much drink it like water, and I'm sure at that point it adds up i a bad way and they don't realize it.
Nitrox
Board Supporter
IMO there is nothing 'amazing' about this article. The author is a high profile nutritionist trying to market himself and promote the supplement industry (Biotest) with yet another alternative approach. The recipe goes something like this: take the results of an arguably flawed study out of context, build a theory on it, sell said theory as fact, by the time people realize it is mostly fluff, they will have moved on to the next fad.
These gurus can get away with it because there is unlikely to be conclusive clinical proof that they are wrong. Why? Nobody is going to run a legit study; they are too long, too expensive, too complicated, and nobody stands to make any money from it. Do you think Biotest is going to make money selling bananas?
I test my blood sugar daily; the time difference of the carbs reaching your blood stream between dextrose and banana is a few minutes. There is negligible difference between raisins and dextrose. If I were playing endurance sports I would have 1 large ripe banana, a couple handfulls of unsalted raisin/nut mix, and a whole bunch of water at half time.
celc5
Well-known member
Whoa! That's simply an awesome post bro!
would you mind trying it once with gatorade? and once with oats or 2 scoops of a complex carb weight gainer? That would be invaluable info to hear the difference in time for blood glucose levels the way you just compared dextrose vs. banana vs. raisins.
Again great info!
alan aragon
Member
Good Lord.
This "window of opportunity" concept is bullshit. Sure, feed your hungry muscles with fast-acting carbs if you were dumb enough to skip your pre-workout or mid-workout carbs. All research indicating the benefit of quick carbs was done on OVERNIGHT FASTD SUBJECTS. Furthermore, here's what Berardi doesn't discuss in that article: It takes 90-120 minutes of CONTINUOUS high-moderate intensity work (with no rest) on a single muscle group to completely deplete glycogen.
AlexParty
Yari Ka Daw!
Well everyone has their opinions. By the sound of it no one is 100% sure whether you get any benefits from doing a PWO carb/pro drink but this is what I can say about the matter. It's better to be safe then sorry. I rather be doing that then not. If I am not doing it and my body needs it then it's my loss. If my body doesn't need it and I'm doing it then it just turns into waste, that's ok.
Neil5585
Member
We're overlooking a few key points here.
1. If you're on a low carb diet, you're not doing carbs the rest of the day so glycogen needs to be restored in that PWO period. Poliquin uses up to 200g PWO for certain lean athletes that work hard. Fast is also good because that way you get back into the low carb mode faster than if you had something that is going to take a long time to digest.
2. Protein, esp. hydrolysates and amino acids, plus high GI carbs like waxy maize, dextrose, maltodextrin, etc, causes a synergistic insulin spike MUCH higher, which is going to stimulate protein synthesis hopefully, and also be anti-catabolic (important PWO). Why do pros inject insulin instead of just eating a banana PWO to get massive?
3. Waxy maize, due to it's high molecular weight and how fast it works, will drive nutrients into muscle cells very well, such as creatine, beta alanine, vitamins, minerals, etc. This can make these supplements more effective.
celc5
Well-known member
This might be a stupid question but are we sure the nutrients are what CAUSES the isulin spike? I'm wondering if there's a workout enduced spike in the hormonal cascade... in which case, we'd say we need to take advantage of the insulin opportunity with proper nutrition. Unconfuse me fellas :fool2:
Nitrox
Board Supporter
Bolus insulin production is a reaction to SURPLUS energy from macronutrient intake.
I have a lot more to add but no time atm...
lector606
Member
I guess so... but I mean I have at least two training sessions a day at least six days a week (usually one day a week I just do one), and I've never found this necessary.. maybe I am shortchanging myself but I doubt it.
Then again we usually do our conditioning workouts at like 7 AM, light cardio/stretching in the afternoon and then another workout at 8PM etc so I get enough breaks to have complete meals. If you had to go straight from the gym to soccer maybe you would benefit.
But I did a triathlon a few weeks ago, and let me tell you, after that I had some fast digesting carbs.. lol..
AlexParty
Yari Ka Daw!
Exactly, sometimes it's not necessary but sometimes it is. I use to train my legs insanely then go to practice. I didn't consume fast carbs after my workout one time and I was dead, completely finished for practice, that was embarrassing.
lector606
Member
lol i HATE running after leg workouts, i'm useless
EasyEJL
Never enough
I have yet to see any evidence that anything more than 20g of carbs is necessary, and that any more than 10g of protein with it makes any significant difference. that is enough to meet the immediate needs, and a full meal 30-60 minutes later will take care of the rest.
Although with the banana you are replenishing liver glycogen first, so maybe a different carb form than fructose would be slightly more beneficial for that immediate. I think that quinoa is probably one of the nicest, as it includes the protein with it
Although with the banana you are replenishing liver glycogen first, so maybe a different carb form than fructose would be slightly more beneficial for that immediate. I think that quinoa is probably one of the nicest, as it includes the protein with it
AlexParty
Yari Ka Daw!
LOL tell me about it. You say you do triathlons... man that's a ***** if you want to keep calories up.
AlexParty
Yari Ka Daw!
I have yet to see any evidence that anything more than 20g of carbs is necessary, and that any more than 10g of protein with it makes any significant difference. that is enough to meet the immediate needs, and a full meal 30-60 minutes later will take care of the rest.
Although with the banana you are replenishing liver glycogen first, so maybe a different carb form than fructose would be slightly more beneficial for that immediate. I think that quinoa is probably one of the nicest, as it includes the protein with it
It's funny I've read threads like this one about PWO shakes for years and years and years and it never ends LOL but I guess it's for the individual to decide his/her training regime.
OCCFan023
Registered User
Alan your pm box is completely full and I had a quick question I wanted to shoot you (couldn't even post it on you am space wall!)
I couldn't agree more with this. I personally believe in the concept of overall daily nutrient intake opposed to individual meals and so on and so forth. Personally I know my pre-workout meal is certainly still providing nutrients by the time I finish training. Only reason I eat 30 or so minutes within completion of training is because its 2-3 hours after my pre meal and I'm damn hungry. No need to be attempting to spike insulin levels.
Nitrox
Board Supporter
Not true.
Firstly carb content of Banana is less than 50% fructose; there is a large percentage of glucose in there.
Secondly, don't confuse glycogen storage in the liver with fructose metabolism in the liver. Yes fructose must be converted to glucose in the liver but that does not mean that it stays there. If your energy balance is negative (ie. post workout) insulin will be low and glucagon will be up. The latter will cause the liver to release glucose stores into the bloodstream and become available to the body (muscles).
celc5
Well-known member
Nitrox, I think I used poor wording in my last question. But, this quoted statement is going to help me articulate a bit better I think...
Are we sure that the post exercise insulin spike isn't a post exercise response? In other words, is there a study that shows low insulin levels post workout if no macros are consumed? or Protein only?
I have this idea in the back of my head that there's an increase in test/insulin (not necessarily a spike though) postworkout regardless of presence of carbs. I obviously have nothing to support that but would like something to alter my train of thought.
Also, I'm not necessarily trying to argue for one side or the other, just trying to learn to develop an educated opinion.
Nitrox
Board Supporter
Yes. Your body is programmed to maintain a certain level of circulating blood glucose to provide a constant energy source to the brain (and possibly other tissues). When you exercise your muscles will tap into this circulating glucose and the level will dip slightly. You cannot get much beyond a 20% drop because you will 'hit the wall' and/or hypoglycemic symptoms will set in and prevent you from further activity. This is sort of a defense mechanism because the more glucose drops the more impaired brain function gets; brain damage and death are the worst case scenarios.
Elevated insulin levels activate cells' glucose transporters that in turn pull glucose out of the bloodstream. If this were to happen when blood glucose is already at baseline or below, then, potentially fatal, hypoglycemic effects would occur. That is why elevated insulin is only a reaction to surplus energy in the bloodstream; once it works the level back down to baseline, insulin levels drop back down to basal levels.
Glucagon is the opposing hormone to insulin. When glucose levels get low, glucagon goes up to promote liver glycogen release and tissue breakdown in order to bring glucose back up.
Keep in mind that glucose (carbohydrate) is the prominent macro in this equation. However, protein and fat are also factors but their degree of influence is less/different. The key point is that all bioavailable energy is involved. So of course if you add protein to a meal of carbs you are going to get a higher insulin response because you have increased total energy intake - nothing magical about it.
Probably, I think that this is considered common knowledge among endocrinologists.
IMO the 'nutrition guys' that introduced the concept of insulin management for BB purposes have really done a disservice to the community. Firstly, as I have outlined, insulin is a reaction to energy, it is not a cause in itself. Secondly, insulin levels are not readily quantifiable. When in any of the articles have you seen a value for a target insulin level? I've never seen one. Insulin measurement is expensive and impractical. On the other hand, measuring your calorie intake is relatively easy. Trying manage insulin levels is like a wild goose chase.
alan aragon
Member
Regardless of carb content of the diet, it's optimal to sandwich the training bout with carbs, not just have them postW. If you just have them postW, you're short-changing yourself from both a protein synthesis & antiproteolysis standpoint. If you were forced to choose between immediate preworkout carbs & immediate postworkout carbs, immediate pre would be superior since peak blood flow would coincide with peak blood glucose & insulin (and AA's if you were smart & didn't skip preW protein or AA's). This all leads to better delivery of nutrients into tissues, versus waiting until postW to get your fast carbs in & play catch-up. Yes, this is a research-based answer, it's not pulled out of the ass.
Within physiological limits, the upper cutoff-point of effectiveness for insulin levels to max out protein synthesis & antiproteolysis is about 15 mU/L. This is just a touch above basal levels. Anything beyond that (within non-pharmacological limits) has NOT been seen to do jack focking crap. If you plan on using pharma-doses of insulin to try to get massive, be my guest. But, hiked insulin levels via food don't do sh!t beyond a very slight elevation above resting basal levels. This has been demonstrated in research.
And where's your proof that quick carbs make these supps more effective, given that proper preW or midW nutrition was in place? If you're gonna make the claim, you better be ready to provide the research - no bropinion please. The only benefit WMS & other fast-acting carbs have is in the case that you have multiple glycogen-depleting bouts in the single day. Otherwise, glycogen is fully repleted long before you hit the muscle group again, regardless of a carb's speed of glycogen resynthesis, regardless of the presence of other nutrients (fat included). Let me also add that consuming high-GI carbs in the recovery period has been seen in one study to impair next-day performance. This has never been the case with carbs that have smoother glucose/insulin curves.
alan aragon
Member
All clear.
Neil5585
Member
I'm not particularly wild about the tone this thread is taking. However I want to cover a few points.
Yes, pre-workout drinks are twice as anabolic as post-only. However if mass were my goal, I'd do both.
Yes, a smaller insulin spike from say a banana or whatever will do most people just fine.
I'm sorry, but the Metabolic Diet and similar options like Poliquin's and DiPasquale's version work...VERY WELL. In these cases, fast carbs PWO work. Whether it's dextrose, malto, or vitargo. Things like Berardi's massive eating works, too, and in that case super fast carbs aren't as necessary.
Poliquin talks about how vitargo helps deliver nutrients like creatine, BCAAs, etc better to muscles. I tend to believe him as he's insanely smart and experienced.
I also think the carbs should depend on bodyfat. Chubby guys should stay away from fast carbs--they can't handle them properly. However someone 6-8% should just fine. This is an important consideration. Most guys are probably too fat to be messing with those fast carbs.
Yes, pre-workout drinks are twice as anabolic as post-only. However if mass were my goal, I'd do both.
Yes, a smaller insulin spike from say a banana or whatever will do most people just fine.
I'm sorry, but the Metabolic Diet and similar options like Poliquin's and DiPasquale's version work...VERY WELL. In these cases, fast carbs PWO work. Whether it's dextrose, malto, or vitargo. Things like Berardi's massive eating works, too, and in that case super fast carbs aren't as necessary.
Poliquin talks about how vitargo helps deliver nutrients like creatine, BCAAs, etc better to muscles. I tend to believe him as he's insanely smart and experienced.
I also think the carbs should depend on bodyfat. Chubby guys should stay away from fast carbs--they can't handle them properly. However someone 6-8% should just fine. This is an important consideration. Most guys are probably too fat to be messing with those fast carbs.
celc5
Well-known member
That makes COMPLETE sense to me. So if insulin spiked post workout without carbs, then it would cause a hypoglycemic state. Thanks bro, it's been a loooong time since I've had to think about endocrinology. I work with musculoskeletal only and need to broaden my scope..
Incredible thread fellas!!! Thanks for sharing so many different points of veiw :cheers:
Nitrox
Board Supporter
No offense but if you don't like the tone you don't have to read the thread. Alan is giving you the straight goods with a little attitude to drive the point. Notice that he isn't pushing some supplement or another?
Nobody says those diet don't work. What is being debated is whether their unique philosophies play any part in their effectiveness. I say no.
For someone who is serious about bodyweight management I highly recommend doing some reading on the scientific definition of energy and some of the basic laws (e.g. conservation of). Most of the relevant information has been around since the 19th century. Massive eating is just an application of these laws. To build complex structures you have to have materials and energy. A deficiency in either will limit results. Factor in that your body will use or store every calorie you put into it and you have enough info to cut through much of the BS info out there.
carbs, be they fast or slow, in one's diet really has nothing to do with ones level of bodyfat. Total energy consumed over time versus total energy expended does. As long as they are factored into the overall diet, carbs are a very useful energy source.
AlexParty
Yari Ka Daw!
Very well said.
Neil5585
Member
I was merely commenting on the tone, not complaining. If I found it offensive I wouldn't have even posted
I really have to disagree on your last paragraph there. Insulin sensitivity starts to drop as bodyfat increases. Lean people can handle carbs better than chubby people. A guy at 6% can get away with basically a cheat day every 5th day without worrying about macros and not gaining fat. Someone 20%? Definitely not going to get away with that.
Poliquin did his own bloodwork on his athletes while doing different protocols, and he has found that athletes around 6% doing hard work can take in 200g of simple carbs PWO without harming health markers or adding bodyfat. That's not the case with higher bodyfat lifters. I think that's significant.
pistonpump
Banned
ok this has gone pretty far.....banana good banana bad? thats all we wanted to know!!! lol...jus playing. interesting convo but a lil too much for me, im out.
Nitrox
Board Supporter
I was merely commenting on the tone, not complaining. If I found it offensive I wouldn't have even posted
No prob, it just sounded like you were having issues with it. All good.
You are talking about two things here and IMO neither are really relevant for carb inclusion or exclusion in one's diet.
Yes insulin sensitivity is inversely proportional to bodyfat percentage however the latter is directly related to how much surplus energy is consumed over time. Consequently I will argue that insulin sensitivity is then related to the level of surplus energy intake. I know that when I switch over from a cutting diet to a bulking diet I have to up my insulin per carb/calorie dosage within a couple days.
What do you mean by 'handle'? If you are talking about inadequate insulin funtion to manage the carb intake then your argument makes sense if said chubby person is developing diabetes. On the other hand if you are saying that the chubby person is more likely to gain fat then your argument is too general. Firstly, you absolutely have to put numbers in there. All things equal, a person with more bodyfat will have a higher maintenance calorie level because of the extra mass the he/she has to move around. Therefore they can eat more while still MAINTAINING their bodymass.
I haven't seen said study but sounds flawed to me. Maybe the higher bodyfat athletes had worse numbers because of their higher bodyfat. Maybe the cause was the excess calories. If I am obese and eat 2000 cal fat + 2000 cal protein + 2000 cal carb = 6000 cal per day, which macro is the culprit? Take your pick but any one would be wrong. Many of the Atkins/Keto fanatics just don't get this. They think that because they eliminate the 2000 cal from carbs and they lose weight that the carbs were the culprit. If you are going to talk numbers you have to have the right equations and all the values.
celc5
Well-known member
I was under the impression that most actually increase total daily calories on the CKD/AD diet. Maybe I'm wrong? I've never ran it myself cause I love my carbs
AlexParty
Yari Ka Daw!
I was under the impression that most actually increase total daily calories on the CKD/AD diet. Maybe I'm wrong? I've never ran it myself cause I love my carbs
I don't get those diets anyways, you need carbs in your diet when losing weight or even cutting, just not so much. No carb diets are insane, that's why women are always moody lol j/k
EasyEJL
Never enough
for what? Not truly a requirement for any bodily processes. protein is and fat is.
AlexParty
Yari Ka Daw!
Without any carbs you'll be a walking zombie, try hitting the gym with only 100g of carbs a day. It's tough, when losing weight you can still incorporate carbs early on during the day to have some type of energy level. I couldn't possibly imagine hitting the gym without any carbs in me. If I was on a strict weight loss I wouldn't eat carbs after 7pm. My point is you can still lose weight with a considerable amount of carbs per day.
EasyEJL
Never enough
I haven't had 100g of carbs in a day more than a couple times in over a year... No physical necessity for it. Most days below 50g. I work out first thing in the morning too, and usually its just a quick couple eggs before workout.
KingMeso
Active member
I'm with Easy. From my experience, and for me personally, carbs (whether simple or complex) aren't necessary at all. Everyone is different, so this is all from my experience.
I have just as much energy if I take in carbs or not. I think people think they need carbs because when they first cut them out, it does shock the body and can make you feel lethargic (of course, changing anything in your diet or daily routine can do this).
Actually, when I am on very little to no carbs, I have felt stronger in the gym and still make strength gains.
OCCFan023
Registered User
Im at a total of 7 grams of carbs a day. My body has effectively transitioned into using ketone's for fuel. I also don't eat anything prior to lifting. My lifts have suffered quite a bit but I am not training for exercise performance with a CKD, its purely fat loss. I am still up in the air if I will ever do it again (I don't think I will have to though once I get to the bf I want to be at) but it certainly can be instigated effectively.
However for gaining size and strength I need my quality carbohydrates.
However for gaining size and strength I need my quality carbohydrates.
Nitrox
Board Supporter
Here's where I don't get the argument. Just because carbs are not 'necessary' does not mean that they are not beneficial. The human body is very adaptable to optimize survival; it can do without a lot for some time by throttling different processes. I fail to see why people opt to run their bodies in one adaptive mode (e.g. ketosis) or another.
Additionally, many micronutrients are common to certain macros. Eliminating carbs also means limiting those types of micronutrients that may or not be limiting biological processes.
EasyEJL
Never enough
it definitely makes it easier for me to control bodyfat loss. You are definitely free to feel how you feel about it, but in my personal experience for my body + chemistry system, a lower carb diet at same protein g and same total calories works better for fat loss than a lowered fat diet.
Nitrox
Board Supporter
I don't buy the 'everyone is different argument.' Barring illnesses and ailments, everyone has the same fundamental biological proccesses. Of course some may have different rates, sensitivities, and of course lifestyles. So IMO this should be an argument of more carbs or less carbs, not carbs or no carbs.
Anyhow I think there is more than enough info in this thread for people to make an educated choice. The one thing that nobody has mentioned in all this is the psychological dimension to making these types of choices. Sometimes, no matter how much evidence there is to the contrary we will take the other path. For example look at the two most popular forums on this board: supplements and steroids. They are 5+ times more active than other on-topic forums. Who thinks those are the two most important aspects of fitness? Food for thought...