Pf/cissus=Gyno?????
- Thread starter dr ozz
- Start date
RenegadeRows
Well-known member
Honestly, if anything is doing it it's the Powefull. Some users experienced slight signs of gyno with Powerfull. It's because it really works: it really raises test. I recommend incorporating Rebound or ATD @25mg ED to combat possible estrogenic sides.
Could you point me to whatever thread has the Cissus relating to Gyno info??? I've never heard that before.
Could you point me to whatever thread has the Cissus relating to Gyno info??? I've never heard that before.
Jayhawkk
Legend
I think almost all these gyno cases are just people with sore nipples and nothing more. I call it a case of Salty nipples. Ever worked out while in a sweaty shirt or ran a long distance and sweat a lot? Shirt and salt from sweat can aggrivate nipples. When I was in the army and had a long ruck march or run I put bandaides over them.
Guest
Guest
If you have pre existing gyno, your diet cause "gyno," but if you never had gyno than your diet can not cause gyno.
lbarber
Member
I've used cissus rx and powerfull together, and saw no signs of gyno or increase in test. I've also seen no cases of acne from the products, or anything to that nature.
But note: I'm 17, and have a lot of it already.
The one thing I've noticed while taking powerfull is the impact it has had on my sleep, which has been pretty awesome. With cissus, I noticed a pump feeling (usually in the legs), and increase recovery times.
But note: I'm 17, and have a lot of it already.
The one thing I've noticed while taking powerfull is the impact it has had on my sleep, which has been pretty awesome. With cissus, I noticed a pump feeling (usually in the legs), and increase recovery times.
skull
Active member
I did a little "research" on the sub and as long as you use powerfull with cissus it should be all good ----cissus is loaded with progestins[part of how it works] but powerfull works as a antiprogestin by raising dopamine levels----trying to get that info from USP very difficult but I BET they wont deni it:study:
Guest
Guest
skull said:
I have yet to read research that classifies Cissus as a progestin. Where was the "research" found?
PowerFULL does increase dopamine levels.
skull
Active member
Bibliographic InformationUSPLabs said:
Active constituents (oxo steroids) of Cissus quadrangularis. Sen, S. P. Dept. Pharmacol., Banaras Hindu Univ., Indian Journal of Pharmacy (1964), 26(9), 247-8. CODEN: IJPAAO ISSN: 0019-5472. Journal written in English. CAN 62:22726 AN 1965:22726 CAPLUS
Abstract
An ether ext. of C. quadrangularis, purified by column chromatography, yielded an oxo steroid, m. 134-6°; Ac deriv. m. 124°. The uv and ir spectra suggested an a,b-unsatd. ketone.
Indexing -- Section 42 (Steroids)
Steroids
(keto, from Cissus quadrangularis)
Spectra, infrared
Spectra, visible and ultraviolet
(of keto steroid from Cissus quadrangularis)
Cissus quadrangularis
(oxo steroid from)
Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 15b,17,21-trihydroxy-
(nuclear magnetic resonance of)
57-83-0, Progesterone
63-05-8, Androst-4-ene-3,17-dione
152-58-9, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 17,21-dihydroxy-
600-48-6, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 6b,11a-dihydroxy-
640-87-9, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 17,21-dihydroxy-, 21-acetate
803-08-7, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 15a,17,21-trihydroxy-
1235-92-3, Androst-4-ene-3,17-dione, 7a,14-dihydroxy-
1758-12-9, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 15a,17,21-trihydroxy-, 15,21-diacetate
1758-13-0, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 15b,17,21-trihydroxy-, 21-acetate
1758-14-1, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 15b,17,21-trihydroxy-, 15,21-diacetate
1974-64-7, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 6b,11a-dihydroxy-, diacetate(nuclear magnetic resonance of)
1758-15-2, Androst-4-ene-3,17-dione, 7a,14-dihydroxy-, 7-acetate
10455-29-5, Androst-4-ene-3,15,17-trione
94963-21-0, Pregn-4-ene-3,15,20-trione, 17,21-dihydroxy-
(prepn. of)
Guest
Guest
skull said:
Did you happen to find this at AVANT forum?
Guest
Guest
skull said:
Please link me to the study, However, I have the full-text study and they didn't have access to NMR nor
did they indicate any specific molecule. They used IR spectra and only gave clues to the molecule's identity.
The study was Posted by PA over at Avant. PA claimed it contained androstendione.
We been studing Cissus for over a year and if it where a progestrin it would not be a hidden fact.
RenegadeRows
Well-known member
Can somebody post who has gyno or has had it in the past who is dosing Cissus, comment on whether or not it aggrivated them, and @ what doses? I highly doubt cissus alone could CAUSE gyno, whether or not it makes an already established condition worse, I'd like to hear feedback.
I personally haven't seen anybody using Cissus claim it caused a flareup...
I personally haven't seen anybody using Cissus claim it caused a flareup...
Zero Tolerance
Registered User
*subscribed*
Guest
Guest
Cissus and PF does not cause gyno!!! The thread at bb.com was a copy and paste job from avant. Pat arnold posted false information..maybe he believed it to be true but it was all FALSE....
I did repeat that earlier in this thread...
What update do you want???
I did repeat that earlier in this thread...
What update do you want???
Guest
Guest
If you do not believe me Please find that study
Active constituents (oxo steroids) of Cissus quadrangularis. Sen, S. P. Dept. Pharmacol., Banaras Hindu Univ., Indian Journal of Pharmacy (1964), 26(9), 247-8. CODEN: IJPAAO ISSN: 0019-5472. Journal written in English. CAN 62:22726 AN 1965:22726 CAPLUS
Abstract
An ether ext. of C. quadrangularis, purified by column chromatography, yielded an oxo steroid, m. 134-6°; Ac deriv. m. 124°. The uv and ir spectra suggested an a,b-unsatd. ketone.
Once you find that study, Please replicate the below info. I gurantee you can not...
Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 15b,17,21-trihydroxy-
(nuclear magnetic resonance of)
57-83-0, Progesterone
63-05-8, Androst-4-ene-3,17-dione
152-58-9, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 17,21-dihydroxy-
600-48-6, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 6b,11a-dihydroxy-
640-87-9, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 17,21-dihydroxy-, 21-acetate
803-08-7, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 15a,17,21-trihydroxy-
1235-92-3, Androst-4-ene-3,17-dione, 7a,14-dihydroxy-
1758-12-9, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 15a,17,21-trihydroxy-, 15,21-diacetate
1758-13-0, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 15b,17,21-trihydroxy-, 21-acetate
1758-14-1, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 15b,17,21-trihydroxy-, 15,21-diacetate
1974-64-7, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 6b,11a-dihydroxy-, diacetate
Active constituents (oxo steroids) of Cissus quadrangularis. Sen, S. P. Dept. Pharmacol., Banaras Hindu Univ., Indian Journal of Pharmacy (1964), 26(9), 247-8. CODEN: IJPAAO ISSN: 0019-5472. Journal written in English. CAN 62:22726 AN 1965:22726 CAPLUS
Abstract
An ether ext. of C. quadrangularis, purified by column chromatography, yielded an oxo steroid, m. 134-6°; Ac deriv. m. 124°. The uv and ir spectra suggested an a,b-unsatd. ketone.
Once you find that study, Please replicate the below info. I gurantee you can not...
Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 15b,17,21-trihydroxy-
(nuclear magnetic resonance of)
57-83-0, Progesterone
63-05-8, Androst-4-ene-3,17-dione
152-58-9, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 17,21-dihydroxy-
600-48-6, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 6b,11a-dihydroxy-
640-87-9, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 17,21-dihydroxy-, 21-acetate
803-08-7, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 15a,17,21-trihydroxy-
1235-92-3, Androst-4-ene-3,17-dione, 7a,14-dihydroxy-
1758-12-9, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 15a,17,21-trihydroxy-, 15,21-diacetate
1758-13-0, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 15b,17,21-trihydroxy-, 21-acetate
1758-14-1, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 15b,17,21-trihydroxy-, 15,21-diacetate
1974-64-7, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 6b,11a-dihydroxy-, diacetate
rampage jackson
Registered User
FWIW I believe you.....never tried your products (Grad student = Poor...hook me up with YG), but if you're good enough for my retarded half brother Jayhawkk, then you're good enough for me. I also have heard nothing other than the PA and "Tits in a bottle" rant. No actual people comming forward with claims of gyno.
PGJPB
New member
I was using Super Cissus and Powerfull for about 2 weeks and I am so sensitive right now I am freaking out. Nothing I read or heard from you guys about these products said this could happen. Because of this I have no serm or anything on hand because I didn't know this was even remotely possible. I have slight pubertal gyno from years ago that is hardly noticable and if these two products permanently enlarge the problem I don't think I'll ever be using anything outside the realm of creatine ever again.
Note I am not taking anything else. Just your two products.
Anybody else experiencing negatives like myself from Powerfull and Cissus?
treningsfrik75
Member
I have gyno from puberty and it also grows if i go overboard with carbs in my diet. The lumps start to ich as hell.
I have tried both powerfull and cissus and it has not done anything to my gyno.
I also have gone pretty high on the cissus ( megadose)
Have a 10% half kilo powder from USP.
So i doubt strongly cissus is causing gyno. not for me anyway
I have tried both powerfull and cissus and it has not done anything to my gyno.
I also have gone pretty high on the cissus ( megadose)
Have a 10% half kilo powder from USP.
So i doubt strongly cissus is causing gyno. not for me anyway
Colin
Board Sponsor
Why don't you just post the full study to clear your Cissus product line of containing progestins?
As you are the one who stands to profit from cissus (and not us/the consumers) I think this is a reasonable request.
Intil then,I will not be using cissus in any form.
I would like to use cissus but cannot do so as I'm unsure as to wether or not progestins will be had along with the benefits of cissus,this which would be a a huge drawback IMO.
As you are the one who stands to profit from cissus (and not us/the consumers) I think this is a reasonable request.
Intil then,I will not be using cissus in any form.
I would like to use cissus but cannot do so as I'm unsure as to wether or not progestins will be had along with the benefits of cissus,this which would be a a huge drawback IMO.
jasonschaffin
Well-known member
This isn't a PA said so thing. PA posted an abstract with this info. USP says the full text doesn't have this info, but we have not seen the full text. Somebody needs to find it and post it. I read a post from PA awhile ago claiming that after he looked at his own cissus (I think, maybe someone elses) he found no traces of androgens.
P.S. I have used the ol' 5% extract with no problems as well as the 40% primaforce. Will be using the supercissus on my next big bulk to keep the joints strong too. I'm not scared.
Mulletsoldier
Binging on Pure ****ing Rage
It's odd, there is an imposition for a burden of proof here, where the charges lack a leg to stand on.
Colin,
You first provide me with something beyond that single abstract to imply Cissus contains androgens and/or other gyno-inducing constituents, and I will do the legwork to dig up that whole study. If one abstract, unfounded, then legitimately refuted, is enough to sway your use, you should stay away from supplements in general.
I have read probably over 100 studies on Leucine alone and I am still undecided.
Colin,
You first provide me with something beyond that single abstract to imply Cissus contains androgens and/or other gyno-inducing constituents, and I will do the legwork to dig up that whole study. If one abstract, unfounded, then legitimately refuted, is enough to sway your use, you should stay away from supplements in general.
I have read probably over 100 studies on Leucine alone and I am still undecided.
jasonschaffin
Well-known member
Ha, maybe I spoke too soon about using cissus. Got this from a Doc on a Lean Bulk
Now I know not all phytoestrogens are bad, but we don't know about this one. Especially direct effects in males. I doubt I would use it anytime I would be susceptible(sp) to gyno (on cycle, PCT).
Mulletsoldier
Binging on Pure ****ing Rage
A few things here. Firstly, the vast majority of phyto-oestrogens are non-steroidal, and, what isn't being understood here, is their effect on bone density is being mitigated through non-steroidal pathways; secondly, we have two dominant oestrogen receptor types, alpha, and beta. Phytoestrogens, though this is obviously dependent on the phyto., in question, almost exclusively activate the beta receptor. Beta is mostly expressed in the brain, bone tissue, bladder, and a few other tissues. As well, and this is important, Phytos have EXTREMELY LOW binding affinity, meaning the intrinsic action on an ER1 receptor, if it were to occur, would be very little.
Not to be a ****, but it's easy to accuse/doubt when the necessary research has been conducted. Oestrogen/gyno., is the cancer of the bodybuilding world; everything causes it. The interplay between Alpha/Beta ER and Phytos is complex and nuanced, and it's a misstep to characterize Cissus in this gyno-inducing capacity.
Feel free to do some more research on phytos if you think I am being an ass or pulling your chain.
Not to be a ****, but it's easy to accuse/doubt when the necessary research has been conducted. Oestrogen/gyno., is the cancer of the bodybuilding world; everything causes it. The interplay between Alpha/Beta ER and Phytos is complex and nuanced, and it's a misstep to characterize Cissus in this gyno-inducing capacity.
Feel free to do some more research on phytos if you think I am being an ass or pulling your chain.
poopypants
Banned
I have had severe gyno, most peple following my logs know this, Had it from superdrol and got rid of alot of it with an Epi, torem and HDX2 cycle.... Im now taking 6g's ED of Super Cissus bulk and dont have a SINGLE problem with any kind of flare up or pain, which if it was a truel strong progestin I would know and would be in immense pain like I was with propadrol.
This sounds bogus to me. Powerfull is slightly ANTI-progestenic but thats the extent of the relation to progesterone that I think either of these have. You cant take single persons accounts of gyno flare up for fact, one they might not even have any real gyno and two who knows what else they are taking or have taken in the last couple months???
jasonschaffin
Well-known member
You're going to make me quote myself.
This was my response since Jacob said:
after he said this:
Jacob is talking about hypocrisy, calls out a product put out that has a ingredient binding to the ER. Isn't that hypocrisy on his part? Cissus is estrogenic, it's not is his write up. I just want everyone to know.
I do doubt it causes gyno in anyway, but if my bones are not broken I will not need the cissus anyways. We have no medical proof it does anything for ligaments/tendons the use I would have used it for. And we have proof it is estrogenic, how much we don't know. I know I have read posting (almost sure by Jacob, but not positive) not to use Formadrol Extreme for the Diazedin. Why is it that phytoestrogen is bad but it is stupid to think that the one in cissus, with no real research behind might not be. Anybody report gyno from FormExtreme? Not that I have heard of. The more we know the better off we all are.
jasonschaffin
Well-known member
well I can't find the post about diazedin i thought i remembered. anybody know anything about its effects?
Guest
Guest
Whoa whoa whoa.
He is posting 1 study just released in 2007 so please yield on the hypocrisy talk.
We have studies that prove that Cissus also contians Keto Steroids.
Please remember we use SERMS(estrogens) for post cycle theraphy. Instead of jumping to conclusions, Please allow some time for our science team to address the questions instead of reacting so hastely.
On the bright side, Cissus could work as a SERM and has proven independent anabolic properties. The good old DOC just might have given us another positive mechanism of action.
Guest
Guest
All you have to do is look up that study to get your answer.
This addition below was fabricated. You can find the old post at mind and muscle or avant..not sure
Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 15b,17,21-trihydroxy-
(nuclear magnetic resonance of)
57-83-0, Progesterone
63-05-8, Androst-4-ene-3,17-dione
152-58-9, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 17,21-dihydroxy-
600-48-6, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 6b,11a-dihydroxy-
640-87-9, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 17,21-dihydroxy-, 21-acetate
803-08-7, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 15a,17,21-trihydroxy-
1235-92-3, Androst-4-ene-3,17-dione, 7a,14-dihydroxy-
1758-12-9, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 15a,17,21-trihydroxy-, 15,21-diacetate
1758-13-0, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 15b,17,21-trihydroxy-, 21-acetate
1758-14-1, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 15b,17,21-trihydroxy-, 15,21-diacetate
1974-64-7, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 6b,11a-dihydroxy-, diacetate
Guest
Guest
I have no idea this product existed FormExtreme. You are confused.
smutty
Member
If cissus did cause or agitate gyno there would be a sh*t load of complaints already. I have used it for over a year @ about 3 grams a day with nothing but fantastic things to say about it. My joint pain is greatly reduced and I think it has helped me lose a little bodyfat. Also Powerfull is my favorite supp. Fantastic sleep and great workouts. If only I didn't need to cycle it to keep it working at high levels.
Guest
Guest
For me it's easy to deterime that Thousands and thousands of Cissus consumers without reports of GYNO or anything estrogen related over 1 study.
If anything its a SERM effect because the Keto sterones are postively anabolic...no doudt at all.
Mulletsoldier
Binging on Pure ****ing Rage
I didn't make you quote anything. You can say "I know not all Phytos are bad", but by saying you wouldn't use it anytime you would be susceptible, you display a lack of knowledge on the subject; phytos have a very low binding affinity to Alpha-1 Receptors, and would be highly unlikely (in most cases) to induce or exacerbate Gyno.
Guest
Guest
Cissus is estrogenic is not proven. In thr study posted it claims Cissus has Phytoestrogens. Again, Nolvadex/clomid is a weak estrogen but does not display unwanted estrogenic effects.
Relax guys, the sky is not falling.
poopypants
Banned
Im not worried, like I said I have a documented history with gyno on this board and if I were taking 6's ED of cissus and it had estrogenic effects/sides it would be quite apparent in my persons and its far from it. Although JC you cant find anything regarding ligement regrowth with cissus and only bone growth I can attest from personal use that the second I discontinue Cissus use I have severe joint discomfort and also when I severely injured myself at the beginning of Jan (check my log and the chat log labeled "when the boss is away") that I used cissus in place of motrin and recovered from wearing a brace to even pick up my 25lb child out of his crib to leg pressing and squating 220lbs and 145lbs respectively for reps without discomfort or pain and can carry satallite dishes up a 28ft ladder now for work with no issue whatsoever.
That injury was one that puts most out for a month or two. I was limited for a week with cissus being used and experienced no est. sides. Im sorry but this compound has NO est. sides, only est benifits, if anything, where its affinity whatesoever for the receptor must be one of a non active nature like a SERM like jacob mentioned, or the same effect Epi had/has.
Why take one abstract unfounded "study/report" over hundreds of peoples feedback and the full untainted study out there for CQ? Thousand of customers dont buy this for its benifits with worries of est sides and 10's -hundreds of companies dont include it in one supplement or another as an active or a filler(ie many ph's that use CQ as a filler) cause they know it will only have positive effects. Not based on unfounded reports of others wanting to discredit the supp for its popularity and nothing else.
Dont be so niave, and if you ersonally really have a problem then go ahead and hold out till your sure for yourself that its an unfounded opinoin/speculation before you take it and dont throw hearsay out as fact. I dont mind the extra stock being available for me to order.
Guest
Guest
First off, "estrogenic" doesn't mean "bad". It's also dependent upon the receptor subtype. SERMs like clomiphene and tamoxifen are estrogenic depending upon the tissue and more specifically, the estrogen receptor subtype found in that tissue. They are estrogenic in tissues like bone (ER-beta) and this is good. They are also anti-estrogenic in other tissues such as breast tissue and the hypothalamus/pituitary, generally associated with the ER-alpha subtype.
He's posting abstracts stating that certain fractions of CQ may have estrogenic activity, but I only see it referenced to bone which is associated with the ER-beta subtype, not the ER-alpha which is more of the true concern and which that Eucommia ulmoides has been shown to interact with.
Agonism at the ER-beta subtype certainly isn't a bad thing as one can see its associated with many of the benefits of estrogens, including bone health. This is the same for raloxifene, tamoxifen, clomiphene. These work to agonize the ER-beta as well.
He's actually making for some good support for you. Estrogens and really all hormones aren't "good" or "bad" but one might view them as that for bodybuilding purposes, but nonetheless, one must consider which receptor subtype they're talking about.
Of course, he should know this so it makes me think he's just trying to be a jerkoff.