The_Reverend
Active member
How so? I feel that the extra time in the pocket can allow your receiver to complete his route and get open. Weren't we discussing o-lines and not the better QB??? :blink:
Brady Could be the greatest ever
- Thread starter MaDmaN
- Start date
How so? I feel that the extra time in the pocket can allow your receiver to complete his route and get open. Weren't we discussing o-lines and not the better QB??? :blink:
AE14
Board Sponsor
at this point in his career it is still too early. However within the next 5 years, if he is healthy, and has won another super bowl or two, its his.
Trauma1
Legend
Maybe you weren't, but they sentence i responded to could have been taken in different ways. Anyway, a solid offensive line absolutely adds a definative dynamic to any QB's abilities in general, however imho quarterbacks' are defined in their ability to make good decisions while under pressure.
The_Reverend
Active member
Well said. I just think his o-line often gets overlooked.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
Because Manning and Brady have outstanding lines and watching both teams (have to love direct tv) for years, I conclude that Indy's line is better (and so do the stats). You can credit O-Lines all you want but there isn't much of a difference between the two. New England doesnt allow far greater time than Indy does at all. In fact, its the opposite. Indy gives up less sacks with a less mobile QB. They rank top 5 every year and have been ranked number 1 in both 2005 and 2006.
Now add that on top of a quicker release from Manning (which is the one of the most fundamental aspects of a QB) and Manning should have better stats. He doesn't (this year). When he was at his best, he broke an NFL record. Brady broke it and its not because their line gave him more time.
The_Reverend
Active member
Again, I'm not trying to discuss which QB is better. That's a toss up in my opinion. I guess what I'm trying to say is the O-lines often don't get the credit they deserve. Just think back to the 90's Dallas team when Emmitt Smith would buy all of his linemen a Rolex as a sign of appreciation. I don't hear of that happening anymore.
Trauma1
Legend
Damn emmitt i want a rolex!......actually i'll just take a little trip into the city and get me a nice cheap knock-off.
VolcomX311
Legend
Wow, never knew that. That's some above & beyond show of appreciation! Great guy.
Mulletsoldier
Binging on Pure ****ing Rage
I think a few things are being lost here. Firstly, up until this year Brady was viewed as a fantastic clutch player, but not necessarily a "QB's QB". Reggie Miller was also a fantastic clutch player, but that does not mean he was better than Michael Jordan.
Secondly, the Patriots have won 3 Super Bowls, not Tom Brady. The old "too much credit when they win, and too much blame when they lose" adage applies here. Last time I checked, Tom Brady plays one position on one side of the ball.
Thirdly, Manning still owns Brady as it pertains to records. As it stands, although Brady's 2007 broke Manning's single-season TD record, many other records Manning set that year still stand (including highest passer rating, most consecutive games with at least 2 and 4 TDs respectively) . He is also on pace to break every major statistic for a QB. Completions, passes, yards, TDs, and he already holds the 2nd highest passer rating for a career and most games with a perfect passer rating. Despite his fantastic year, Manning is still a better statistical QB. As I said, the Patriots and not Tom Brady beat Indy so many times.
Fourthly, I am not quick to anoint anybody the 'best' just yet. I am sick of hearing "the next Gretzky" or "the next Jordan" only to see players like Lindros, Daigle, Kwame Brown, and their ilk fizzle and drop. Now, T.Brady is already approaching unparalleled success, so I am not insinuating he is hack (obviously) just that a more tempered response is necessary.
Secondly, the Patriots have won 3 Super Bowls, not Tom Brady. The old "too much credit when they win, and too much blame when they lose" adage applies here. Last time I checked, Tom Brady plays one position on one side of the ball.
Thirdly, Manning still owns Brady as it pertains to records. As it stands, although Brady's 2007 broke Manning's single-season TD record, many other records Manning set that year still stand (including highest passer rating, most consecutive games with at least 2 and 4 TDs respectively) . He is also on pace to break every major statistic for a QB. Completions, passes, yards, TDs, and he already holds the 2nd highest passer rating for a career and most games with a perfect passer rating. Despite his fantastic year, Manning is still a better statistical QB. As I said, the Patriots and not Tom Brady beat Indy so many times.
Fourthly, I am not quick to anoint anybody the 'best' just yet. I am sick of hearing "the next Gretzky" or "the next Jordan" only to see players like Lindros, Daigle, Kwame Brown, and their ilk fizzle and drop. Now, T.Brady is already approaching unparalleled success, so I am not insinuating he is hack (obviously) just that a more tempered response is necessary.
VolcomX311
Legend
:goodpost: Everyone here has good posts, even perspectives I don't necessarily agree with have been delivered and expressed with great point of views.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
I'm not losing anything. Its' my perspective on who the best QB is....
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
And what I'm saying is its ALL relative....Great QB's have great lines for the most part. That is a given... What those QB's DO with those lines determine what I think of them. This year is the first time Brady has had REAL talent at WR....and his numbers show it. So for me, he can put up the numbers like the Mannings, Marino's, Elways, etc...AND he can win the big one as he done for 3 times. You can't ask for any more out of QB.
Trauma1
Legend
I couldn't have said it better myself.....bravo :clap2:
Mulletsoldier
Binging on Pure ****ing Rage
It was not directed at you specifically, but the whole thread. My point was that the Patriots, not Tom Brady, and the Colts and not Peyton Manning have won Super Bowls. Fact is, Brady has had one stellar statistical season, and has been the best player on the best organization in football. In my view, this does not directly equate to him being the greatest.
I just don't think Bowls alone equate to greatness, or people would have brought up Bradshaw more in this context.
For my money, if I am a GM on an expansion team and I am given the choice between Manning and Brady, I take Manning. The man hasn't thrown less than 26 TDs in any season. His 2004 season, despite losing that record to T.Brady, is still better than Brady's 2007. Either way though, I'll reserve my judgment until they both retire.
The_Reverend
Active member
THAT I can agree with. I'm still not sold on Brady being the best ever but he might be after this weekend.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
No, winning 3 Superbowls, going on his 4th WHILE breaking records does.
Brady won 3 with less offensive talent than other "greats" and its not because they had a hall of fame defense either. Give him offensive talent and he'll break more records.
He has been.
Thats because there is a difference between throwing to Harrison, Wayne, Pollard and throwing to Deion Branch and an aging Troy Brown (earlier).
I take Brady. Given the same talent that surrounds Manning, he would flourish the same if not better. He's already proved that this year.
Trauma1
Legend
I completely agree that now that brady has some serious offensive talent (Welker,Moss,Stallworth,Gafney) his overall abilities and potential are really starting to surface. He put up good numbers with a significantly less talented offense in recent years while winning 3 superbowls in the process.
IMHO if brady had been within the same highly talented offense structure that manning or any of the other greats had from the beginning many of those coveted QB records may have belonged to brady himself.......currently, and/or in the end.
IMHO if brady had been within the same highly talented offense structure that manning or any of the other greats had from the beginning many of those coveted QB records may have belonged to brady himself.......currently, and/or in the end.
Mulletsoldier
Binging on Pure ****ing Rage
See below.
Once again, The Patriots won 3 with less collective Offensive talent, but a team game that creates synergy. Bellichek and Brady are the perfect storm, Bellichek's record without Brady proves as such. Now, this pre-Brady mediocoreness does not necessarily validate Brady as the greatest, but bolsters the point that he fits perfectly within Bellichek's ideom and game scheme.
Really? I think one person mentioned him in a passive fashion. The majority of the discussion has been about Brady and Montana.
He has had one stellar offensive year, while Peyton threw 26 TDs as a rookie and has never thrown less. This illuminates my point perfectly, Peyton is instant offense, and Brady is instant clutch. Given the right field position, right calls, and right teammates, Brady has been able to orchestrate clutch drives. This does not mean he is the 'greatest' just that he fits impeccably in the system he plays in. This in and of itself is a great QB trait, but does not mean he is the greatest.
How do you explain Peyton's instant melding and success in his rookie year?
Trauma1
Legend
They are both great in so many aspects of the game overall, but come'on mullet manning was basically birthed into an offensive juggernaut. Its hard not to flourish in that gifted environment with the talent he has.
Mulletsoldier
Binging on Pure ****ing Rage
Meh, you're right. My point is that the fickle nature of NFL, over all other professional leagues, makes me weary in anointing anybody anything until the conclusion of their career.
Though I understand the thought process going on here, I don't agree.
I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree (that and I am way too sick to be expending energy on this!)
Though I understand the thought process going on here, I don't agree.
I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree (that and I am way too sick to be expending energy on this!)
Trauma1
Legend
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
I read below. Still doesnt change anything.
Probably because most people also remember the Steel Curtain being a large factor.
Once again, give the same amount of talent to Brady and he is just as good as Manning in terms of numbers and even better in the clutch.
How can I explain his instant "success"? Well 26 TD's is good but 28 INT's is even better. I could care less about rookie seasons....
I care more about 4806 yards, 50 TD's, 8 INT's with 3 going on 4 rings.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
Trauma1
Legend
Mulletsoldier
Binging on Pure ****ing Rage
You seem to be overlooking the fact that this is Brady's first impressive offensive season. If he repeats this and wins this Bowl then I would be more inclined to agree with you. You are also attributing Bradshaw's rings to the team game, but simultaneously giving Brady the sole credit for the Patriot's success.
Once again, Tom Brady plays one position, not the whole team. He has more rings because the Patriots are a better organization than are the Colts. Better draft choices, savvier trading, tighter team philosophy, craftier, etc., Last time I checked T.Brady doesn't play MLB, doesn't field kick and punt returns, doesn't play wide-out or corner, doesn't kick, and doesn't play on the O and D Lines.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
No, he had some impressive seasons before, just not record setting.
I am not attributing anything to anyone. I simply said people will probably not mention him because they remember a Hall of Fame defense. I already said he was included before.
And nobody gave Brady sole credit for anything. I gave him credit, not sole credit. There is a difference.
Once again, it doesn't change anything to me.
Or because their QB is better.
Or because their QB is better.
You're right, he only throw 50 TD's, 8 INT's and has 3 rings going on 4. Thats enough for me.
Mulletsoldier
Binging on Pure ****ing Rage
Bobo, excuse my ignorance that the QB of each team wins games and/or Superbowls by themselves. I had forgotten. I just remembered Miami's wins under Marino, and the 4 Bowls Atlanta won under Vick.
Football is a team game, more than any other sport.
By the way, despite the 50 and 8, Manning's 2004 Season still holds the record for highest passer rating, most consecutive games with at least 2 touchdown passes, most consecutive games with at least 4 touchdown passes, most games with at least 4 touchdown passes. He also holds the record for most career games with a perfect passer rating, as well as a few other records Brady isn't on pace to touch.
If Manning keeps on pace to break EVERY major statistical category for a QB and gets to the Bowl one or two more times and wins, mentioning him as one of the greats is impossible to deny.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
Where did I say the QB's win by themselves? You seem to work in absolutes when someone doesnt agree with your opinion. All or nothing...sorry, it doesnt work that way. I don't agree with you viewpoint no matter how much you try to be sarcastic and be condescending to those who don't 100% believe in your total team concept. I believe the QB is the most important position on the field and can basically win or lose a game more so than any other position therefore when they win, I give them more credit than anyone. If you don't agree, good for you..have fun with that.
Gee thanks for that. I mean its great that you are here to tell us these things.
Well good for him....doens't change anything for me.
IF....
You can quote your total team concept all you want...you can state as many statistics as you want. I see the same info you do and it doesnt change my opinion at all. I make judgements based on what I deem important, not you. I think Brady is better than Manning, I think if he wins a 4th he is the best ever and I won't be a minority in that thinking. Think what you want, I don't care.
Mulletsoldier
Binging on Pure ****ing Rage
I am confused, so I'll take my leave. You say "where did I say QB's win by themselves?" and then a few sentences later say "the QB can basically win or lose a game more so..". That's like saying "I don't beat my wife, I merely strike her repeatedly".
I didn't mean to be condescending, but the sarcasm was intended. It seemed necessary as your argumentative style is characterized by ignoring the other's statements and repeating the same points, as if this makes yours right. It doesn't.
Either way, it's just an opinion that will never be solved between us. I'll never convince you and you'll never convince me.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
More so....
Actually, that's more your style as you seem to think that if someone doesnt agree with your viewpoints you think they ignore your position then elevate that by being sarcastic and condescending. I told you once that its my perspective on who the best QB is and twice told you that your viewpoints haven't changed anything for me. That's not ignoring, that's telling you I don't agree....3 times... So to recap, I don't think a few points are being lost
...and I'm not overlooking the fact
and I never thought you to be ignorant
but if you want to continue with that type of argumentative style, have fun with that.
I never tried to solve it. I stated who I believed was the best of all time. You then began lecturing everyone on how they shouldn't associate Superbowl wins with an individuals greatness as if we are all ignorant to the obvious of a team concept. I don't agree...for the 4th time.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
And you wonder why some choose to ignore you.
Mulletsoldier
Binging on Pure ****ing Rage
lol..I found that last jab funny. You label me sarcastic and condescending, yet, after I leave the argument seeing it's fruitless, you found it necessary to get 'one last' unnecessary slice in.
I'm not so much interested in your retort, not for childish reasons, just more so this once fairly interesting debate has turned into a pissing match; you made some valid points, as did I, whether you choose to recognize that is of no mind to me. Enjoy the game on Sunday, Bobo.
I'm not so much interested in your retort, not for childish reasons, just more so this once fairly interesting debate has turned into a pissing match; you made some valid points, as did I, whether you choose to recognize that is of no mind to me. Enjoy the game on Sunday, Bobo.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
Actually its a fact as some chose to put you on their ignore list. Maybe not being sarcastic would help that. I know I have learned form my mistakes in the past...just a thought.
Of course it isn't.
Mulletsoldier
Binging on Pure ****ing Rage
Probably is. Is the fact that anonymous identities on the internet are ignoring my anonymous identity supposed to bother me? If you're trying to make an effective cutdown you should try another route.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
I don't think its supposed to bother you but the fact that you get sarcastic seems to point to the fact that it does.
I am just letting you know that if you weren't as sarcastic/condescedning, maybe the problem of people ignoring you would be solved. Its not a cut down, its a suggestion. Nobody likes being ignored.
Fastone
Well-known member
Tom Brady may at some point become the QB with the most superbowls but sorry, NOT the greatest ever. With his offensive line not on par so far tonight, he is just average.
:bruce3:
Mulletsoldier
Binging on Pure ****ing Rage
A big giant bump for Brady's mediocore game and the Pats' loss.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
Big bump for Eli doing the same thing Brady did...take their team down the field to score.
Mulletsoldier
Binging on Pure ****ing Rage
For all the Brady fanboyism which was perpetuated in this thread and others, he failed where, given the credit placed on him, he should have succeeded.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
He still is better than Manning. Sorry.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
Fanboyism. Are you 13?
manifesto
Well-known member
Hell yeah! Where are all the Brady fans now?!?!
You guys can go ahead and give him his nuts back now!!!!haha
MuscleGuyinNY
Banned
I like the Pats more than I do the Giants, but Brady blew tonight. He had several opportunities to help make sure the Pats were gonna take this game home, but he gave them up by hanging onto the ball and being so concerned about faking. He got what he deserved. By that, I mean his ass getting sacked several times. The Giants played great defense tonight.
Mulletsoldier
Binging on Pure ****ing Rage
lol.
Bobo, for the owner/admin of this board your level of immaturity and spitefulness surprises me at times.
I can see myself getting banned for pointing out anymore faults, so I'll take my leave.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
:lol:
Faults? Man, I got a million of them but you celebrating and showing utter glee in anothers misery while touting the "fanboyism" is the height of immaturity and spitefulness.
Banned? Ha, it wouldn't be worth it although Jacob would love that one so keep trying little one.
:toofunny: