If i have Adrenal Fatigue can i use T3/T4?
- Thread starter superone
- Start date
JanSz
Well-known member
It would be a good idea to stop stimulats and other drugs.
Test your thyroid, at least
FreeT3
FreeT4
thyroid antibodies
Make attempt to get freeT3 close to top range, using Armour.
If that causes you adrenal strees, start using Cortef.
Slowly ramp up to 20mg/day divided.
Then slowly work on increasing Armour.
See how far you get , watch pulse, body temp.
If you had a adrenal problem, stay at least a year on cortef, do not stop it.
superone
Member
Hi, thanks for the help.
JanSz, i was wondering if you could help me out please, ive seen Doctors, an Endo, and i got some blood work done, and all thats really come back abnormal was my low DHEA-S.
I will post the results below, but want to explain my situation first.
I was using Avodart for hairloss, and i was kind of fatigued on it, im 23 years old, and depend on my looks for my job and future career, so i didnt want to give up and lose my hair, my dreams would be ruined.
So i used some green/black tea, caffeine,ect, stimulants, and when i stopped them i crashed big time, and had like no energy, and my face went puffy. This happened in May, and since then im feeling a lot better, but my face is still puffy/ swollen looking. Its not super puffy but you can tell my cheeks are puffed up. Im very lean no more than 10% bodyfat, naturally muscular and have a 6 pack, so its not fat, yet my weight has gone up like 10 pounds and i think its 85% water.
My cheeks have never been puffy like this before in my life and i used to life a unhealthier lifestyle, now i live healthey and eat healthy but it doesnt help.
I didnt use any stims or drugs for about 6 months, and my cheeks still stayed puffed out, they just didnt want to budge.
Aug/15/07
Free Testosterone - 53.6 Range 31-94
LH - 3 Range 3-6
FSH - 3 Range 2-8
DHEA-S - 2.8 LOW Range 7.6-17.4
TSH - 1.24 Range 0.35 - 5.00
Sep/18/07
DHEA-S - 3.6 LOW Range 7.6-17.4
Cortisol 24 Hour Urine - 132 Range 27-180
The next day i started Dermacrine and it lasted me 3 weeks. Started Sustain for 2 days, stopped the day before this next blood test.
Oct/15/07
DHEA-S - 3.3 LOW Range 7.6-17.4
Estradiol-17 Beta - 224 HIGH Range Up To 206
DHT - 3391 ( Ref 860-3406 )
Nov/30/07
Testosterone = 20.5 (Ref 7.3 - 23.5)
Free Testosterone = 54.0 (Ref 31.0 - 94.0)
Androstenedione = 7.3 (Ref 2.2 - 10.2)
FSH = 2 (Ref 2 - 8)
LH = 6 (Ref 2 - 6)
Estradiol = 195 (Ref UP TO 206)
Total Prolactin = 8 (Ref 2 - 18)
DHEA-S = 5.4 LO (Ref 7.6 - 17.4)
TSH = 1.48 (Ref 0.35 - 5.00)
Free T3 = 5.9 (Ref 3.5 - 6.5)
Free T4 = 15 (Ref 9 - 23)
Sodium = 140 (Ref 135 - 147)
Potassium = 3.7 (Ref 3.5 - 5.2)
Glucose - Random = 4.3 (Ref 3.6 - 6.9)
The VERY frustrating thing is, that even though my blood work looks pretty normal, my cheeks are puffed out, and i want to get rid of them so bad its ruining my life. Nobody will help me and i dont know what to do.
Ive tried Letrozole and that didnt even get rid of my puffy cheeks, i thought mabye its a Estrogen issue due to when i used Avodart, but ive quit the Avodart since May.
Can you PLEASE help me out? Ive even tried T3 and Proviron, just because i was so sick of my puffy cheeks, and no Docs or anybody would help me, and that didnt work.
On Christmas Eve i tried Avodart again in combination with T3 and Letrozole, and after 2 days on this, my puffy cheeks went away. It made me pee a lot, but after the 3rd 4th day, my puffy cheeks came back.
I just cant win, i'll do whatever it takes to get rid of this. I cant go on like this much longer.
Please help me out, i would REALLY appreciate it.
Thanks.
JanSz, i was wondering if you could help me out please, ive seen Doctors, an Endo, and i got some blood work done, and all thats really come back abnormal was my low DHEA-S.
I will post the results below, but want to explain my situation first.
I was using Avodart for hairloss, and i was kind of fatigued on it, im 23 years old, and depend on my looks for my job and future career, so i didnt want to give up and lose my hair, my dreams would be ruined.
So i used some green/black tea, caffeine,ect, stimulants, and when i stopped them i crashed big time, and had like no energy, and my face went puffy. This happened in May, and since then im feeling a lot better, but my face is still puffy/ swollen looking. Its not super puffy but you can tell my cheeks are puffed up. Im very lean no more than 10% bodyfat, naturally muscular and have a 6 pack, so its not fat, yet my weight has gone up like 10 pounds and i think its 85% water.
My cheeks have never been puffy like this before in my life and i used to life a unhealthier lifestyle, now i live healthey and eat healthy but it doesnt help.
I didnt use any stims or drugs for about 6 months, and my cheeks still stayed puffed out, they just didnt want to budge.
Aug/15/07
Free Testosterone - 53.6 Range 31-94
LH - 3 Range 3-6
FSH - 3 Range 2-8
DHEA-S - 2.8 LOW Range 7.6-17.4
TSH - 1.24 Range 0.35 - 5.00
Sep/18/07
DHEA-S - 3.6 LOW Range 7.6-17.4
Cortisol 24 Hour Urine - 132 Range 27-180
The next day i started Dermacrine and it lasted me 3 weeks. Started Sustain for 2 days, stopped the day before this next blood test.
Oct/15/07
DHEA-S - 3.3 LOW Range 7.6-17.4
Estradiol-17 Beta - 224 HIGH Range Up To 206
DHT - 3391 ( Ref 860-3406 )
Nov/30/07
Testosterone = 20.5 (Ref 7.3 - 23.5)
Free Testosterone = 54.0 (Ref 31.0 - 94.0)
Androstenedione = 7.3 (Ref 2.2 - 10.2)
FSH = 2 (Ref 2 - 8)
LH = 6 (Ref 2 - 6)
Estradiol = 195 (Ref UP TO 206)
Total Prolactin = 8 (Ref 2 - 18)
DHEA-S = 5.4 LO (Ref 7.6 - 17.4)
TSH = 1.48 (Ref 0.35 - 5.00)
Free T3 = 5.9 (Ref 3.5 - 6.5)
Free T4 = 15 (Ref 9 - 23)
Sodium = 140 (Ref 135 - 147)
Potassium = 3.7 (Ref 3.5 - 5.2)
Glucose - Random = 4.3 (Ref 3.6 - 6.9)
The VERY frustrating thing is, that even though my blood work looks pretty normal, my cheeks are puffed out, and i want to get rid of them so bad its ruining my life. Nobody will help me and i dont know what to do.
Ive tried Letrozole and that didnt even get rid of my puffy cheeks, i thought mabye its a Estrogen issue due to when i used Avodart, but ive quit the Avodart since May.
Can you PLEASE help me out? Ive even tried T3 and Proviron, just because i was so sick of my puffy cheeks, and no Docs or anybody would help me, and that didnt work.
On Christmas Eve i tried Avodart again in combination with T3 and Letrozole, and after 2 days on this, my puffy cheeks went away. It made me pee a lot, but after the 3rd 4th day, my puffy cheeks came back.
I just cant win, i'll do whatever it takes to get rid of this. I cant go on like this much longer.
Please help me out, i would REALLY appreciate it.
Thanks.
wildfox
Member
Check out
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Note especially the salted water in the morning. You might have adrenal issues. You should see a doctor and ask for cortisol tests and an ACTH stimulation test to see if your adrenal glands are ok.
The bloodwork you got done is not a complete picture.
Also, why are you taking Avodart (inhibits conversion of T to DHT) and Proviron (methylated DHT) at the same time? That makes no sense.
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Note especially the salted water in the morning. You might have adrenal issues. You should see a doctor and ask for cortisol tests and an ACTH stimulation test to see if your adrenal glands are ok.
The bloodwork you got done is not a complete picture.
Also, why are you taking Avodart (inhibits conversion of T to DHT) and Proviron (methylated DHT) at the same time? That makes no sense.
superone
Member
I never said i took Proviron and Avodart at the same time, i know that makes no sense.
I tried the Proviron way after i quit the Avodart just to see if it was DHT related, and it didnt help.
You have to understand ive been getting NO help from ANYBODY, and i know there is something wrong with me my face is puffy but the stupid Doctors and Endo say it looks normal.
It looks normal for a 45 year old, not a 23 year old, and it happened right after i crashed off the stimulants, and it hasnt gone away in over 8 months!
I just want to get rid of these puffy/swolen cheeks!
This is like a nightmare i cant stand it any longer!
I dont want to take anything that increases Cortisol, because my 24 hour Urine Cortisol came out normal as you can see i posted.
I think my Cortisol levels may be causing my puffy/swollen face.
I really want to end this already.
I tried the Proviron way after i quit the Avodart just to see if it was DHT related, and it didnt help.
You have to understand ive been getting NO help from ANYBODY, and i know there is something wrong with me my face is puffy but the stupid Doctors and Endo say it looks normal.
It looks normal for a 45 year old, not a 23 year old, and it happened right after i crashed off the stimulants, and it hasnt gone away in over 8 months!
I just want to get rid of these puffy/swolen cheeks!
This is like a nightmare i cant stand it any longer!
I dont want to take anything that increases Cortisol, because my 24 hour Urine Cortisol came out normal as you can see i posted.
I think my Cortisol levels may be causing my puffy/swollen face.
I really want to end this already.
WannaBeHulk
rollin' on dubs!
Doesn't T3 upregulate adrenoreceptors? I thought this was the genius behind alternating clen with T3...
superone
Member
Thanks, i would like to know more info on that.
Also, my face gets more puffy after practically EVERYTHING i eat, and after a while it goes down a bit but it still remains puffy.
I also have dark rings or circles under my eye's.
Does anybody know whats going on with me?
Do i have a disease or something?
Also, my face gets more puffy after practically EVERYTHING i eat, and after a while it goes down a bit but it still remains puffy.
I also have dark rings or circles under my eye's.
Does anybody know whats going on with me?
Do i have a disease or something?
JanSz
Well-known member
I do not see much hope for you, untill you settle down, stop all this multitude of drugs, so there is a chance to figure out what is wrong with you.
You are all over the map.
Off hand looks like you may have E2 problems.
Hard to say because labs that you are using are outside of USA.
To test e2 properly one need special "ultra sensitive" test at the minimum.
Better test is if it also have FreeE2.
Definitely do not use Avodart or Proscar or Propicia.
Any fina or duo sterides.
But it looks like you have not been hurt by any of them, just a luck.
Do not use Letrozole.
Possibly Anastrozole that is Arimidex.
I would also advice that you stop Dermacrine.
To not to offend Eric, and hopefully get better health and possibly better hairs use his Toco-8.
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/82724-toco-8-proven.html#post1157846
=============================================
Summary:
2/day 25mg Dhea
Liquidex total 0.77cc/week, break dose to E2D schedule,
0.77/7*2=0.22cc=22 units on (small) insuline syringe, best use 3/10cc syringe.
Toco-8
At the next opportunity test your SHBG.
Get Genova Diagnostic test NutrEval-NEW
Results come with a list of supplements.
Eat all of them, retest in 3 -6 months.
Add the new ingredients to old list.
Hopefully you will feel better.
One of the ingredients will be vitE, that is where Toco-8 comes in.
When they call for B12, get Methyl-cobalamine shots 2/week
When they call for folate, you use
FolaPro, Metagenics M126L Invalid Link Removed
also
Now Foods, P-5-P (Coenzyme B6), 50 mg, 60 Tablets (P5P is the best form of b-6)
As you see I am learning as I go along with this NutriEval treak.
Good luck.
superone
Member
Thanks for the help, i really appreciate it.
I will check those tests you mentioned.
I want to make this clear.
I havent been on Dermacrine in months, as i said in my testing i finished dermacrine and got those blood tests done in October. Dermacrine raised my E2 which i didnt like, and probabbly my Progesterone aswell.
I also havent been on a multitude of drugs, i stayed clean for like 6 months and my face was still puffy. I got the last bloodwork done, the big list and wasnt on any drugs.
I cant be walking around like this and nobody was helping me out so i cant just sit here and do nothing about it and ruin my life.
Which diseases can cause a puffy face?
What do you think is causing my puffy face?
I even payed $850 for a food sensativity/intolerance tests, 250 foods, and im waiting on the results in the mail.
I will check those tests you mentioned.
I want to make this clear.
I havent been on Dermacrine in months, as i said in my testing i finished dermacrine and got those blood tests done in October. Dermacrine raised my E2 which i didnt like, and probabbly my Progesterone aswell.
I also havent been on a multitude of drugs, i stayed clean for like 6 months and my face was still puffy. I got the last bloodwork done, the big list and wasnt on any drugs.
I cant be walking around like this and nobody was helping me out so i cant just sit here and do nothing about it and ruin my life.
Which diseases can cause a puffy face?
What do you think is causing my puffy face?
I even payed $850 for a food sensativity/intolerance tests, 250 foods, and im waiting on the results in the mail.
JanSz
Well-known member
Do search on this board and meso board, here:
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Do search on word "puffy"
This is not the first time I have heard this word.
If you cannot find anything, start thread with "puffy face"
on both these boards and also here, on dr John's board:
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IIRC, it means something in stage of adrenal fatigue, I am not really sure.
The food intolerance tests were next on my list.
NutrEval-NEW is first, so go and do it.
Just do not go someplace else and do something that is similar.
You want actually this particular one at Genova Diagnostics.
Can you hold urine over night without going to the bathroom?
I have to go 4x per night.
Not sure, but I think for that test, when I will do it next time, I will collect urine 10PM till 7AM, mix it and take sample from that.
VolcomX311
Legend
Would Reset-AD help???
superone
Member
JanSz, thanks a lot for your help, im going to search and explore those boards.
If i drink a bottle of water before bed, i usually wake up in the middle of the night once to pee it out.
If i dont drink water before bed i usually wake up really dry and dehydrated, it doesnt make sense.
I tried Reset A.D. and in my case i seemed to make my face
more puffy sometimes, mabye because of the Cortisol increase from it, im not sure.
If i drink a bottle of water before bed, i usually wake up in the middle of the night once to pee it out.
If i dont drink water before bed i usually wake up really dry and dehydrated, it doesnt make sense.
I tried Reset A.D. and in my case i seemed to make my face
more puffy sometimes, mabye because of the Cortisol increase from it, im not sure.
JanSz
Well-known member
There is
NutrEval
and
NutrEval-New
I am not sure, but I think one is using 24hr urine and blood
the other FMV (First Morning Void) and blood.
Use the one with 24hr urine.
In USA only doctor who have account with Genova can order their tests.
Oppening account, 5 minutes.
Then doc orders tests kits, they deliver them overnight either to patient's door steps or doctors office.
Do not have to be prescription writting doctor.
Chiropractor, nurse, naturopath can do it.
In UK anyone with valid credit card can buy Genova's tests over internet.
How it is in Canada I do not know.
Why do not you call them (toll free), find out and let us know.
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Link to USA NutrEval
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Link to UK NutrEval
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rick055
Active member
super, how is your sleep?
You might want to try some melatonin (and ZMA) at night before bed.
Although I believe you may have something from stim use/crash, I'm wondering if the stress is affecting your sleep.
Also, you might want to try the propecialhelp forum to see if any of the sides are from avodart use. As I'm sure you know, avodart is WAAAY more powerful than finasteride with a much longer half life. How long were you on? When did you stop taking it?
JanSz
Well-known member
Scattered information is counterproductive.
On this board use just this thread, you will get better help that way.
From your post #3 it looks like your
Estrodial is high.
DHEA low
TotalTestosterone --OK
DHT --OK
FreeT3 --OK
FreeT4 --OK
Saliva Cortisol (low, high, ok,ok)
--------------------------------------------------
Which diseases can cause a puffy face?
What do you think is causing my puffy face?
I even payed $850 for a food sensativity/intolerance tests, 250 foods, and im waiting on the results in the mail.
Post results of those food sensitivity tests.
----------------
You said:
I got some adrenal fatigue from stims,
LEF says:
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The overproduction of cortisol by the adrenal glands leads to Cushing's syndrome (Clayman 1989). Cushing's syndrome also results when glucocorticoid drug hormones (such as hydrocortisone, prednisone, methylprednisolone, or dexamethasone) are taken in excess for a prolonged period of time.
Cushing's syndrome is characterized by central obesity; sparing of the arms and legs (thin extremities); a round, reddish moon face; buffalo hump; and a protuberant abdomen. Many people with Cushing's syndrome experience severe fatigue, weak muscles, ulcers, thin skin, high blood pressure, and high blood sugar. Irritability, anxiety, and depression are also very common.
===========================================================
Do you think your have used enough stimulants to cause all this?
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Read also here:
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specially this part:
Evidence Based Course of Care:
=============================================
For now I would suggest doing blood tests at Quest Diagnostics.
Specially figure out your Estrodial situation using this test:
Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X)
post results when you get them, do not take any Aromatase inhibitors now.
Just do not put anything else in your mouth except good food for solids and plain water for drinks.
Get NutrEval test from Genova Diagnostics.
Be very carefull with any medications containing cortisol.
Eye drops, skin lotions, asthma medications, cold medications,
injections to control strains, sprains, etc.
Assuming that you are not taking any cortisol on a side,
you still need to support your Adrenals.
Support means little help only, not overwhelming them.
Normally that means you are allowed to take divided dose of Cortef 20mg/day.
Use less than that, only early in the morning and at noon, or better just in the morning.
Take a nap when tired.
Take 25mg DHEA in the morning
You, most likely have got your Cushings fat redistribution on your face, if that will go away, time will tell.
I suggest that before you start on a Cortef, you do another saliva test to confirm the above results.
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depend on my looks for my job and future career
--
be real carefull, when tired take a break/rest, not pills.
superone
Member
Thanks for the help JanSz, its going to be hard for me to communicate over the net, but i'll try my best to reply.
I HAVE NOT used hydrocortisone, prednisone, methylprednisolone, or dexamethasone.
Why would i use these? I listed all the drugs that i have used.
central obesity; sparing of the arms and legs (thin extremities); a round, reddish moon face; buffalo hump; and a protuberant abdomen. Many people with Cushing's syndrome experience severe fatigue, weak muscles, ulcers, thin skin, high blood pressure, and high blood sugar. Irritability, anxiety, and depression are also very common.
These are the only symtoms i have in bold. I wake up dehyrated, and my face is puffy, it goes down a little but during the day, but is still puffy. My face really isnt what i would call Red. My facial skin looks a bit thinner yes, and i have only gained a very TINY amount of fat on my lowest abs only ( still have a 6 pack and i am very lean and muscular ) and a little bit of fat on my face.
This kind of seems like Estrogen related fat doesnt it? Probabbly because messing aroundwith Finesteride and Dutasteride left me with higher Total T levels, so more converted to Estrogen. Just a possible guess, i dont know.
My fatigue used to be bad when i first crashed of stimulants, but its not as bad.
Yes i did get BAD anxiety and jitters from the stims, so yes i beleive they caused my adrenal fatigue. Thye probabbly sped up my thyroid or some other metabolism so much, that when the effects ran out at night while sleeping, i got a rebound effect in the morning and had no energy. I had to keep taking some stims just to keep me going, and didnt evenn know i was doing myself more damage.
I very much doubt i have Cushing's syndrome, lol, especially when my Cortisol is only high in the afternoon, and my 24 hour urine Cortisol Test was normal and not even high.
I have no reason to re-test my adrenal stress saliva tests, i did everything correct, and thats just going to cause me more money and time for no reason.
Ive been having sides since May 07, ive gotton tests and tests ,ect, clearly it looks like i have Adrenal fatigue, no?
So i just want to heal them and get better already, im tired of this crap already.
Can somebody give me any more advice or what i can do to HEAL my adrenals?
What else could be my problem?
Thanks.
I HAVE NOT used hydrocortisone, prednisone, methylprednisolone, or dexamethasone.
Why would i use these? I listed all the drugs that i have used.
central obesity; sparing of the arms and legs (thin extremities); a round, reddish moon face; buffalo hump; and a protuberant abdomen. Many people with Cushing's syndrome experience severe fatigue, weak muscles, ulcers, thin skin, high blood pressure, and high blood sugar. Irritability, anxiety, and depression are also very common.
These are the only symtoms i have in bold. I wake up dehyrated, and my face is puffy, it goes down a little but during the day, but is still puffy. My face really isnt what i would call Red. My facial skin looks a bit thinner yes, and i have only gained a very TINY amount of fat on my lowest abs only ( still have a 6 pack and i am very lean and muscular ) and a little bit of fat on my face.
This kind of seems like Estrogen related fat doesnt it? Probabbly because messing aroundwith Finesteride and Dutasteride left me with higher Total T levels, so more converted to Estrogen. Just a possible guess, i dont know.
My fatigue used to be bad when i first crashed of stimulants, but its not as bad.
Yes i did get BAD anxiety and jitters from the stims, so yes i beleive they caused my adrenal fatigue. Thye probabbly sped up my thyroid or some other metabolism so much, that when the effects ran out at night while sleeping, i got a rebound effect in the morning and had no energy. I had to keep taking some stims just to keep me going, and didnt evenn know i was doing myself more damage.
I very much doubt i have Cushing's syndrome, lol, especially when my Cortisol is only high in the afternoon, and my 24 hour urine Cortisol Test was normal and not even high.
I have no reason to re-test my adrenal stress saliva tests, i did everything correct, and thats just going to cause me more money and time for no reason.
Ive been having sides since May 07, ive gotton tests and tests ,ect, clearly it looks like i have Adrenal fatigue, no?
So i just want to heal them and get better already, im tired of this crap already.
Can somebody give me any more advice or what i can do to HEAL my adrenals?
What else could be my problem?
Thanks.
JanSz
Well-known member
You will have to be much more detailed about the stimulants that you took.
superone
Member
Hey JanSz,
I have some Isocort on the way, but i was wondering how i would slowly ramp up to 20mg/day divided, of Cortef, as you suggested in your first reply to my thread?
I want to order some Cortef and Armour just incase the Isocort doesnt do the trick for me, but would like to know how i would go about slowly starting these, because i want to heal my adrenals and not make them any worse than thry already are.
Thanks!
I have some Isocort on the way, but i was wondering how i would slowly ramp up to 20mg/day divided, of Cortef, as you suggested in your first reply to my thread?
I want to order some Cortef and Armour just incase the Isocort doesnt do the trick for me, but would like to know how i would go about slowly starting these, because i want to heal my adrenals and not make them any worse than thry already are.
Thanks!
JanSz
Well-known member
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