bigskinny
Guest
Is 6-OXO better than DIM (diindoylmethane) for estrogen control... for men? I read that DIM wasn't so good for men's hormones.
Thanks.
Thanks.
grila jujitsu
Well-known member
where did you read this?
bigskinny
Guest
Now, I realize this is from the ergo-pharm / 6-OXO web site, but does it have any validity?
"After chrysin there was Indole-3-carbinol and Di-indoylmethane. These related compounsds work by shifting the metabolism of estrogens away from strong estrogen compounds (16-hydroxylated) and towards weaker estrogens (2-hydroxylated). This can have benefits for women prone to breast cancer as 16-hydroxylated estrogens are quite notorious for promoting estrogen dependent breast cancer. However, there has never been any benefit demonstrated in men for reducing estrogen related effects or for increasing androgen levels. In fact, these compounds may actually REDUCE androgen levels. So for males looking to reduce estrogen and raise testosterone, I-3-C and DIM are poor choices."
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SamBoz19
Well-known member
Research DIM better!
As far as between the two stand alone...yes 6-OXO is better at estrogen control because its a suicide inhibitor of estrogen. Now as far as DIM not being good for men's hormones...thats BS! DIM is not an AI, but it helps with estrogen metabolism. DIM helps keep estrogen under control by converting bad estrogens into good estrogens...which is a good thing because it promotes a hormonal balance in your system and of course that means a better libido and so on. Do some research on DIM...you'll definitely read about it being quite beneficial.
As far as between the two stand alone...yes 6-OXO is better at estrogen control because its a suicide inhibitor of estrogen. Now as far as DIM not being good for men's hormones...thats BS! DIM is not an AI, but it helps with estrogen metabolism. DIM helps keep estrogen under control by converting bad estrogens into good estrogens...which is a good thing because it promotes a hormonal balance in your system and of course that means a better libido and so on. Do some research on DIM...you'll definitely read about it being quite beneficial.
nunes
Well-known member
6-oxo is far far better , there is no comparison.
Where do you heard that 6-oxo is suppressive?
EctoPower
Active member
Ditto. I've never heard of 6-oxo being suppressive. ErgoPharm states that there is potential suppression at higher doses and/or longer runs of 11-oxo. But not 6-oxo.
SamBoz19
Well-known member
Its possible!
Anything that completely blunts estrogen can be suppressive if you dose it too high. However, as long as you run it for no longer than 6-8 weeks and at the recommended dose, or just a tad higher, but not too much higher, than suppression is not an issue. 6-OXO is pretty safe, the worst thing to worry about is possible lethargy, or a little drop in libido, beyond that though its safe and effective.
Anything that completely blunts estrogen can be suppressive if you dose it too high. However, as long as you run it for no longer than 6-8 weeks and at the recommended dose, or just a tad higher, but not too much higher, than suppression is not an issue. 6-OXO is pretty safe, the worst thing to worry about is possible lethargy, or a little drop in libido, beyond that though its safe and effective.
EctoPower
Active member
Well, I'd never recommend that someone run it for 6-8 weeks at a high dose. I've done short runs of 3-4 weeks that ramp up to a high dose with no problems. Or in the case of PCT, I would use it for 4-5 weeks, starting at a higher than recommended dose and tapering. No lethargy or libido issues for me either. Granted everyone is different, but I've just never had much in the way of sides with 6-oxo, so I have a hard time seeing it as suppressive if it's used intelligently.
It's probably dangerous to use just about anything at a very high dose for a long period of time.
SamBoz19
Well-known member
Very well put!
Good way of putting it bud. When using 6-OXO, it is much more effective to do short runs with it. You are also right that 6-OXO would not be suppressive if its used intelligently. However, you have to remember that some guys have a tendency to think they are a hard ass and they dose the stuff too high. I also agree that running anything in the realm of 6-OXO (something that tampers with your hormones) at a high dose could be quite detrimental to your health because the stuff is potent.
Good way of putting it bud. When using 6-OXO, it is much more effective to do short runs with it. You are also right that 6-OXO would not be suppressive if its used intelligently. However, you have to remember that some guys have a tendency to think they are a hard ass and they dose the stuff too high. I also agree that running anything in the realm of 6-OXO (something that tampers with your hormones) at a high dose could be quite detrimental to your health because the stuff is potent.
EctoPower
Active member
Yep, I agree. I plan on dosing it pretty high to start a PCT after hdrol, but I'll ramp down pretty quickly and be done in 4 weeks. Running any AI for 6-8 weeks seems a little risky to me. I always like to give my body a big 'ol break after taking this stuff too. I haven't used 6oxo since about August.
nunes
Well-known member
boys I have to disagree because ergopharm have in their site a long time study with 6-oxo where you can see 6-oxo is safe and not suppressive.
Go to their site and see 6-oxo long term study:
A study was recently completed at Baylor University that looked at the physiological responses to 8 week cycles of 6-OXO. In this study, there were two groups – one that consumed 300mg 6-OXO a day and one that consumed 600mg a day. Each group took the 6-OXO for 8 weeks during which blood samples were taken at intervals throughout the cycle and at 3 weeks after the completion of the cycle. The blood was later analyzed for hormone levels and for toxicity indicators.
The full results cannot be released until the study is peer reviewed, however we can give you a sneak peak at the most important aspect of the study – the influence of 6-OXO upon free testosterone levels.
As you can see from the graph, the 600mg a day group experienced a very substantial increase in free testosterone that was sustained throughout the 8 week cycle. The levels peaked around the 3 week mark, where they measured roughly twice that of baseline levels.
Of particular interest is the fact that after the 3 week washout period, the levels of testosterone for both the 300mg and 600mg groups were pretty much exactly the same as they were at the start of the cycle. This indicates that there are no negative rebound effects upon testosterone levels after cessation of 6-OXO cycles.
It is also important to note that a complete blood panel showed no significant changes in toxicity parameters throughout the course of the cycles.
Go to their site and see 6-oxo long term study:
A study was recently completed at Baylor University that looked at the physiological responses to 8 week cycles of 6-OXO. In this study, there were two groups – one that consumed 300mg 6-OXO a day and one that consumed 600mg a day. Each group took the 6-OXO for 8 weeks during which blood samples were taken at intervals throughout the cycle and at 3 weeks after the completion of the cycle. The blood was later analyzed for hormone levels and for toxicity indicators.
The full results cannot be released until the study is peer reviewed, however we can give you a sneak peak at the most important aspect of the study – the influence of 6-OXO upon free testosterone levels.
As you can see from the graph, the 600mg a day group experienced a very substantial increase in free testosterone that was sustained throughout the 8 week cycle. The levels peaked around the 3 week mark, where they measured roughly twice that of baseline levels.
Of particular interest is the fact that after the 3 week washout period, the levels of testosterone for both the 300mg and 600mg groups were pretty much exactly the same as they were at the start of the cycle. This indicates that there are no negative rebound effects upon testosterone levels after cessation of 6-OXO cycles.
It is also important to note that a complete blood panel showed no significant changes in toxicity parameters throughout the course of the cycles.
Extremebb300
New member
DIM has actually been shown to be mildly anti-androgenic; search pub-med, I'm too lazy 
bigskinny
Guest
I asked my doc (who is very knowledgeable in bio-identical hormones and supplements). He says DIM is ok but does have some conversion issues. He recommends a complete broccoli formula called OncoPlex from Xymogen. This stuff is US$70 per bottle though :-o