Don't you guys worry about "having" to abandon HRT?

[wondering]

3 months of meds? Storing large amounts of gasoline?

I'd be more afriad of having large amounts of gasoline on my property and the dangers that entails, then afraid of the risk of running out.

I don't want to sound insensitive, but you sound a bit paranoid and maybe suffer from anxiety that may be a result of lack of proper hormonal balance. If treated properly, perhaps these feelings would go away and the discussion would be moot.

This is exactly what I fear: Dependence.

The world is not always a nice place. Bad things can and do happen, all too often. Those who cannot survive without artificial assistance, be it medications, equipment or even galasses are indeed often the first to go. As painful as it is to realize, the name "Darwin" comes to mind, which is why I am so damned angry at my body for letting me down and have been trying everything before resorting to TRT. I keep a supply of food, gas and more and am now developing a 2-3 month backup supply of all meds "just in case".

In the here and now, however, many of us are simply broken for whatever reason. We either attempt to patch together a repair, be it via lifestyle changes or even medications or we suffer and decline. Guys with slightly low T or low T that can be fixed via diet, exercise or modest adjustments shouldn't go anywhere near TRT. Others, like me, who have tried to exhaust every other possible alternative first only to come up empty may have little choice.

In the end, however, we shall all die. Might as well make the time we have more fulfilling, even if that requires medication. The alternative is to fall apart, bit by bit.

 

[wildfox]

I choose not to obsess about such things. But neither am I naive. If there is a catastrophe blocking my access to my HRT meds, I will at least have a several month's supply of transdermal pregenolone+DHEA, olive oil (in metal can), pumpkin seeds, canned salmon, and a WHOLE LOTTA WHISKEY!

 

[rick055]

I choose not to obsess about such things. But neither am I naive. If there is a catastrophe blocking my access to my HRT meds, I will at least have a several month's supply of transdermal pregenolone+DHEA, olive oil (in metal can), pumpkin seeds, canned salmon, and a WHOLE LOTTA WHISKEY!

ditto the whiskey.

 

[rick055]

This thread does bring an interesting thought to mind, though.

Although TRT is generally understood to be continuous, does it make sense to "cycle" on and off for this purpose (i.e. maintaining more natural production, especially if one doesn't choose hCG)?

Note to mods, I am not speaking of doing a steroid cycle, rather, whether intermittent cessation would have any therapeutic value in appropriate TRT.

 

[wondering]

I have heard Dr. Crisler speak against this.

I can't imagine depleting your body of needed hormones would provide any benefit to your body. In fact, I would guess it would put undue stress on it. Once in a proper balance, I would vote to stay that way.

I'm not a dr.

This thread does bring an interesting thought to mind, though.

Although TRT is generally understood to be continuous, does it make sense to "cycle" on and off for this purpose (i.e. maintaining more natural production, especially if one doesn't choose hCG)?

Note to mods, I am not speaking of doing a steroid cycle, rather, whether intermittent cessation would have any therapeutic value in appropriate TRT.

 

[rick055]

I have heard Dr. Crisler speak against this.

I can't imagine depleting your body of needed hormones would provide any benefit to your body. In fact, I would guess it would put undue stress on it. Once in a proper balance, I would vote to stay that way.

I'm not a dr.

That's a good point. Once you're dialed in, why mess with things?

 

[BigAk]

I can't imagine depleting your body of needed hormones would provide any benefit to your body.

You won't be depleting your body of needed hormones; assuming that your body is capable of producing on its own naturally within the normal ranges. I can see how this may be a good idea to do. We use HCG in order to keep the testes producing testosterone; why not remind the pituitary of its ability to produce LH and FSH also??

IMO; This will have merit only if one is not secondary nor primary.

 

[wondering]

Reread your 1st sentence... if your body was capable of producing its own hormones within normal ranges, you wouldnt be on TRT in the first place. So, issue would be moot.

Stiil believe in my 1st post...once tuned up, stay that way. Once I felt good, I would NEVER let a doctor tell me to stop to give myself a rest.

You won't be depleting your body of needed hormones; assuming that your body is capable of producing on its own naturally within the normal ranges. I can see how this may be a good idea to do. We use HCG in order to keep the testes producing testosterone; why not remind the pituitary of its ability to produce LH and FSH also??

IMO; This will have merit only if one is not secondary nor primary.

 

[BigAk]

Reread your 1st sentence... if your body was capable of producing its own hormones within normal ranges, you wouldnt be on TRT in the first place. So, issue would be moot..

I'm referring to those who get on HRT while their levels are in the normal but "low" range. There are so many guys who fit this profile.

 

[anyman]

I would add that the "low" range is seldom enough for most guys under 70 (m)

I'm referring to those who get on HRT while their levels are in the normal but "low" range. There are so many guys who fit this profile.

"Low" is subjective, but I would argue that anything below 300-400 is too low, unless one has no symptoms and is perfectly fine.

The "normal" range is quite wide and covers guys from 17 to 97. Much more important is how a man feels.

 

[BigAk]

"Low" is subjective, but I would argue that anything below 300-400 is too low, unless one has no symptoms and is perfectly fine.

The "normal" range is quite wide and covers guys from 17 to 97. Much more important is how a man feels.

Agreed...

 

[wildfox]

I think over recent years we've established that "low normal" is really hypogonadal and unacceptable, haven't week?

We want to be in the upper third or upper quarter of the high end of the "normal" range. Anything less needs TRT.

 

[BigAk]

I think over recent years we've established that "low normal" is really hypogonadal and unacceptable, haven't week?

We want to be in the upper third or upper quarter of the high end of the "normal" range. Anything less needs TRT.

How did this come about?? How did such a small group of individuals on here have come to define new meanings/grades to this medical condition against the thousands or millions population used in medical research to determine the "norm" over decades of time??. And; if this small group is so determined that they're the accurate ones, is it valid for the rest of the world to follow this particular "cult" who's only been around since the boards have come to life??? what... a few years ago???

You got me curious now as to who started preaching the new standards... and when did this take place!!!!

 

[muslhead]

How did this come about?? How did such a small group of individuals on here have come to define new meanings/grades to this medical condition against the thousands or millions population used in medical research to determine the "norm" over decades of time??. And; if this small group is so determined that they're the accurate ones, is it valid for the rest of the world to follow this particular "cult" who's only been around since the boards have come to life??? what... a few years ago???

You got me curious now as to who started preaching the new standards... and when did this take place!!!!

I think the problem is with the word "normal". As I understand it "normal" means 2 sigma of the population falls within these ranges. Unfortunately, this means the ENTIRE population, young and old. I have yet to see a distribution graph of "normal" by age.

MH

 

[JanSz]

I think the problem is with the word "normal". As I understand it "normal" means 2 sigma of the population falls within these ranges. Unfortunately, this means the ENTIRE population, young and old. I have yet to see a distribution graph of "normal" by age.

MH

Look at

Table 2 CalcV BAT and Calc2 BAT
Table 4 CalcV FT and Calc2 FT
for some breakdowns between
man and women
young and old



-------------http://www.atypon-link.com/WDG/doi/pdf/10.1515/JLM.2006.050


30 male control patients
10 healthy young men
8 healthy older men
17 normal women

40 normal women
10 male control subjects
9 male control subjects
==================
I would attempt to follow indices of

10 healthy young men
10 male control subjects

 

[rick055]

I don't think one EVER had to be below 280 ng/dl in order to get treated.

I think it's just coming to life as more and more men learn of the benefits and the science behind it.

Who started it? I don't know. But look at study upon study that show the health benefits of T treatment.

Up until recently, everybody thought it was a given that an increase in T and DHT was predictive for prostate problems. Times change. DHT might even be protective, with estrogen being the culprit.

How about the study done by the University of Rochester that shows the fake estrogens (xenoestrogens, I think) that we are bombarded by all day.

Compare levels of T now to levels of men even just 20 years ago.

Message boards didn't create the studies, they illuminated them.

 

[wildfox]

How did this come about?? How did such a small group of individuals on here have come to define new meanings/grades to this medical condition against the thousands or millions population used in medical research to determine the "norm" over decades of time??. And; if this small group is so determined that they're the accurate ones, is it valid for the rest of the world to follow this particular "cult" who's only been around since the boards have come to life??? what... a few years ago???

You got me curious now as to who started preaching the new standards... and when did this take place!!!!

Anti-aging doctors who know more than the average family physician.
Patients insisting on treatment for symptoms rather than based on lab numbers alone.
The obvious bull**** of lumping all adult males regardless of age into one category and call it normal.
The idea that we'd rather feel like we're in our 20s than in our 90s.

 

[muslhead]

The idea that we'd rather feel like we're in our 20s than in our 90s.

Yah, but at what cost?

MH

 

[JanSz]

The idea that we'd rather feel like we're in our 20s than in our 90s.

Yah, but at what cost?

MH

I guess I should just die and live all my money to my wife and children.
They will know how to use it wisely.
No, I should not spend my own money on my own health.

 

[rick055]

Yah, but at what cost?

MH

I think many of these questions are presupposing a normal, healthy person simply trying to feel "better". That is not appropriate TRT.

If a person has total T of 325 and feels lousy, is he really worried about the remote possibility that supplies will get so interrupted *forever* that he might only be able to produce 275 on his own?

If there is a moral to the story, maybe it's that using hCG while on TRT is a better idea than not.

Further, if crises worry you, maybe having a little hCG, hMG, & anti-e in reserve to kick start endogenous production in case of a tie is a good idea, also.

 

[BigAk]

I think many of these questions are presupposing a normal, healthy person simply trying to feel "better". That is not appropriate TRT.

If a person has total T of 325 and feels lousy, is he really worried about the remote possibility that supplies will get so interrupted *forever* that he might only be able to produce 275 on his own?

If there is a moral to the story, maybe it's that using hCG while on TRT is a better idea than not.

Further, if crises worry you, maybe having a little hCG, hMG, & anti-e in reserve to kick start endogenous production in case of a tie is a good idea, also.

I think you get the correct picture rick... I fit this profile.... normal but low... not feeling as good as I'd like all around. If I end up selecting HRT, my worry is having to stop for some reason or another. For instance; there's a good chance that I may move and live in a different country other than the US one day; at which point the struggle arises to find a good doctor who knows and agrees on treating me. That's not to mention the health insurance issue that keeps taking a negative dive downward. Heck... These struggles happen here in the good ol' US; we keep hearing stories about guys dealing with clueless doctors and facing insurance obstacles. This kind of dependecy given the potential troubles should be considered seriously by anyone considering HRT. Again; the idea of using HCG as Doctor John does is an essential one.

 

[BigAk]

I guess I should just die and live all my money to my wife and children.
They will know how to use it wisely.
No, I should not spend my own money on my own health.

Jan.. I don't think muslhead meant financial cost here..

 

[wildfox]

Yah, but at what cost?

MH

So what if I spend $1000 or so a year on TRT meds and office visits. I could spend $5000 on kit cars, gadgets, porn, booze, strip clubs, whores.

That quality of life I get being on TRT is well worth the expense. I'm a better performer at work, in bed, better husband, better father, and generally much happier. Spending 1% of my income to achieve this and stave off future medical issues due to low T and high E......

...it's worth it.

 

[Scottyo]

I think you get the correct picture rick... I fit this profile.... normal but low... not feeling as good as I'd like all around. If I end up selecting HRT, my worry is having to stop for some reason or another. For instance; there's a good chance that I may move and live in a different country other than the US one day; at which point the struggle arises to find a good doctor who knows and agrees on treating me. That's not to mention the health insurance issue that keeps taking a negative dive downward. Heck... These struggles happen here in the good ol' US; we keep hearing stories about guys dealing with clueless doctors and facing insurance obstacles. This kind of dependecy given the potential troubles should be considered seriously by anyone considering HRT. Again; the idea of using HCG as Doctor John does is an essential one.

But you have to remember that the first (or at least the correct) first step in TRT is to assess whether it might be possible to 'fix' the problem so to speak without lifelong treatment. Its why docs will do clomid or hcg alone first before attempting other methods. Or trying other avenues such as correcting estrogen imbalances (iodine, lowering bodyfat, other enviromental stressors) before jumping the gun. But if you are sub-optimal, fix it. You don't drive your car with a flat tire just because if you fill it it might get flat again.

 

[rick055]

I think you get the correct picture rick... I fit this profile.... normal but low... not feeling as good as I'd like all around. If I end up selecting HRT, my worry is having to stop for some reason or another. For instance; there's a good chance that I may move and live in a different country other than the US one day; at which point the struggle arises to find a good doctor who knows and agrees on treating me. That's not to mention the health insurance issue that keeps taking a negative dive downward. Heck... These struggles happen here in the good ol' US; we keep hearing stories about guys dealing with clueless doctors and facing insurance obstacles. This kind of dependecy given the potential troubles should be considered seriously by anyone considering HRT. Again; the idea of using HCG as Doctor John does is an essential one.

I also think it's important to remember that "normal" is a subjective value. 300 may be fine for some; 600 may not be enough for another. If T is the problem, then fixing it is the answer.

Moving to another country may be a blessing; most of these meds are inexpensive (T and thyroid, for sure) and I think many countries may be more lax about dispensing them. I think the fact that T is a controlled substance is ridiculous.

But yes, all aspects of TRT should be seriously considered, and I don't say that lightly; we're talking about hormones here.

Big AK, what are your levels? Have you had your thyroid checked?

 

[BigAk]

I also think it's important to remember that "normal" is a subjective value. 300 may be fine for some; 600 may not be enough for another. If T is the problem, then fixing it is the answer.

Moving to another country may be a blessing; most of these meds are inexpensive (T and thyroid, for sure) and I think many countries may be more lax about dispensing them. I think the fact that T is a controlled substance is ridiculous.

But yes, all aspects of TRT should be seriously considered, and I don't say that lightly; we're talking about hormones here.

Big AK, what are your levels? Have you had your thyroid checked?

I kick-started my HPTA a year ago with the help of Dr. Crisler. We were able to land in the 300'rds. I was happy at first thinking that I was home free. However, a year later my levels have not budged. I don't feel as good as once did before I embarked on the stupid steroid game. That's why I feel that via my genetics, my levels should be higher and that my body is somehow stuck in some sort of comfort zone and not want to change. Currently Dr. Crisler is assisting me in trying to figure out what the bottle neck is if any. He's been pretty patient with me, but I guess I'm begining to lose hope.

As far as my thyroid, Dr. John believes I'm fine based on blood work values.

It's crazy... Sometimes, I feel pretty fine and happy... but there are other times when I feel like absolute crap. For instance, post lifting I feel like I'd been run over by a train. The gym is not as exciting as once was. Now; it's hard work and dreadfull. Although my libido is on the ground, surprisingly enough erection is good. I have low tolerence to stressfull situation and I crumble emotionally at such instances. Then I'm moody and slightly depressed and worried most of the time. A fourty year old is too young to feel like this.

 

[coz]

As far as my thyroid, Dr. John believes I'm fine based on blood work values.

It's crazy... Sometimes, I feel pretty fine and happy... but there are other times when I feel like absolute crap. For instance, post lifting I feel like I'd been run over by a train. The gym is not as exciting as once was. Now; it's hard work and dreadfull. Although my libido is on the ground, surprisingly enough erection is good. I have low tolerence to stressfull situation and I crumble emotionally at such instances. Then I'm moody and slightly depressed and worried most of the time. A fourty year old is too young to feel like this.

Those symptoms really sound like Adrenals, have you checked these ?

What were your last results for Thyroid (TSH, Free T3, Free T4)

 

[wildfox]

Those symptoms really sound like Adrenals, have you checked these ?

What were your last results for Thyroid (TSH, Free T3, Free T4)

I agree. Have you had an ACTH stimulation test?

 

[muslhead]

Jan.. I don't think muslhead meant financial cost here..

Exactly
Money is no object when it comes to health.
MH

 

[muslhead]

So what if I spend $1000 or so a year on TRT meds and office visits. I could spend $5000 on kit cars, gadgets, porn, booze, strip clubs, whores.

That quality of life I get being on TRT is well worth the expense. I'm a better performer at work, in bed, better husband, better father, and generally much happier. Spending 1% of my income to achieve this and stave off future medical issues due to low T and high E......

...it's worth it.

As above.
I didnt mean financial cost
I was referring to what, if any, long term health issues we will have by playing with our endocrine system.
While I am more than willing to take the risk, I do wonder.
MH

 

[JanSz]

The idea that we'd rather feel like we're in our 20s than in our 90s.

Yah, but at what cost?

MH

Jan.. I don't think muslhead meant financial cost here..

Exactly
Money is no object when it comes to health.
MH

Well I am not 90, I am 67yo.
I have all the money and time for the project of feeling like 20 but it is a chore.

Should I do it or not?

I am doing it.

Others do not, their choice.
========================================

This thread is disturbing to me.

I see 25-40 y olds feeling like 90's
and intelectualizing,
looking for reasons why they should not help them self.

That actually makes me sick.

It is worst then talking to incompetent doctor,
even if this doctor is one's father.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Lets spend the vaning energy on how to do it right, not if we should do it.

 

[BigAk]

Well I am not 90, I am 67yo.
I have all the money and time for the project of feeling like 20 but it is a chore.

Should I do it or not?

I am doing it.

Others do not, their choice.
========================================

This thread is disturbing to me.

I see 25-40 y olds feeling like 90's
and intelectualizing,
looking for reasons why they should not help them self.

That actually makes me sick.

It is worst then talking to incompetent doctor,
even if this doctor is one's father.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Lets spend the vaning energy on how to do it right, not if we should do it.

Jan,

I understand your frustration with threads of this nature... I don't mean to disturb you or anyone with my logic. There are countless other threads on here that focus on how to perfect your HRT. Could you allow me to include my threads that will help me determine what the right course of action for me to take?? Who knows; the way it's looking I may be going the HRT route soon myself. If that happens, I myself will be asking you for advise. In the mean time, bare with me. I have to admit, I am pretty upset about the fact that my body has not come up on its own in the last year, and I think this is reflecting on the nature of my inquiries lately.

 

[rick055]

Jan,

I understand your frustration with threads of this nature... I don't mean to disturb you or anyone with my logic. There are countless other threads on here that focus on how to perfect your HRT. Could you allow me to include my threads that will help me determine what the right course of action for me to take?? Who knows; the way it's looking I may be going the HRT route soon myself. If that happens, I myself will be asking you for advise. In the mean time, bare with me. I have to admit, I am pretty upset about the fact that my body has not come up on its own in the last year, and I think this is reflecting on the nature of my inquiries lately.

I sympathize with your thought process.

As I've said before, this IS a big deal. Whatever road you choose, good luck.

 

[BigAk]

Those symptoms really sound like Adrenals, have you checked these ?

What were your last results for Thyroid (TSH, Free T3, Free T4)

coz... I have taken your advise two months ago and inquired about adrenal fatigue. According to my blood work results, Dr. Crisler believes it's normal... so does my endo. However, I'm waiting for my latest urine tests to come back.. and if they reveal something different, we may re-visit this again.

 

[BigAk]

I sympathize with your thought process.

As I've said before, this IS a big deal. Whatever road you choose, good luck.

Thank you for your support rick..

 

[JanSz]

Jan,

I understand your frustration with threads of this nature... I don't mean to disturb you or anyone with my logic. There are countless other threads on here that focus on how to perfect your HRT. Could you allow me to include my threads that will help me determine what the right course of action for me to take?? Who knows; the way it's looking I may be going the HRT route soon myself. If that happens, I myself will be asking you for advise. In the mean time, bare with me. I have to admit, I am pretty upset about the fact that my body has not come up on its own in the last year, and I think this is reflecting on the nature of my inquiries lately.

Hey, the board is public, we live in a free country, I hope that you find you way soon.

Be thankfull to your body,
do not withold help when the help is available,
help it when it it asking you for help.

Keep your 401K fully loaded, help is not cheap.

 

[BigAk]

Hey, the board is public, we live in a free country, I hope that you find you way soon.

Be thankfull to your body,
do not withold help when the help is available,
help it when it it asking you for help.

Keep your 401K fully loaded, help is not cheap.

Good advise Jan.. Thank you for understanding. My 401K is going on...

 

[rick055]

My 401K is going on...

I could use 401,000.

 

[JanSz]

I could use 401,000.

More precisely

when you are in posession of 25x of your required yearly expenses,
it is time to retire or at least stop working for money.

Wisely invested it should carry you over to the golden gates at that predetermined comfort level.
--------------------------------------------------
401000
would be good for
401000/25=16040

if you can swing living on $16040/year
pull the plug now

 

[muslhead]

More precisely

when you are in posession of 25x of your required yearly expenses,
it is time to retire or at least stop working for money.

Wisely invested it should carry you over to the golden gates at that predetermined comfort level.
--------------------------------------------------
401000
would be good for
401000/25=16040

if you can swing living on $16040/year
pull the plug now

Uhmm, no not if the money is in a retirement account and he is under 59 1/2.
MH

The 4% rule is a rule of thumb and if invested properly could easily be much higher.

 

[Diancecht]

I am cautiously optimistic that we will see a slow but gradual acceptance of appropriate HRT replacement. The obstacles are the public perception of HRT due to the steroid abuse that is going on. This could compell the DEA to take a harder position on HRT. Another potential issue is whether or not the legal profession comes to see HRT based litigation as another means of generating income.

On the plus side we are gradually seeing a swing in the clinical world from focusing on mortality rates at the expense of morbidity. From an economic perspective as pointed out in Carruthers: Androgen Deficiency in the Adult Male, Causes, Diagnosis and Treatment HRT may become a financial requirement to help offset the costs of aging populations. Europe and Asia are going to be hit very heavily with the economic costs of aging populations to a much greater degree than us here in the US. As such I hope to see some more good studies come out Asia and Europe which support appropriate HRT as a preventive and therapeutic measure in the aging population.

Worst case scenario is that the HRT replacement becomes to risky for the average practioner to manage. Fortunately both in Europe and Canada it is much more widely accepted. Then I guess it means taking a trip up North or across the pond twice a year to get legal HRT. Not a great option but I as a clinician I doubt it will come to that.

 

[JanSz]

I am cautiously optimistic that we will see a slow but gradual acceptance of appropriate HRT replacement. The obstacles are the public perception of HRT due to the steroid abuse that is going on. This could compell the DEA to take a harder position on HRT. Another potential issue is whether or not the legal profession comes to see HRT based litigation as another means of generating income.

On the plus side we are gradually seeing a swing in the clinical world from focusing on mortality rates at the expense of morbidity. From an economic perspective as pointed out in Carruthers: Androgen Deficiency in the Adult Male, Causes, Diagnosis and Treatment HRT may become a financial requirement to help offset the costs of aging populations. Europe and Asia are going to be hit very heavily with the economic costs of aging populations to a much greater degree than us here in the US. As such I hope to see some more good studies come out Asia and Europe which support appropriate HRT as a preventive and therapeutic measure in the aging population.

Worst case scenario is that the HRT replacement becomes to risky for the average practioner to manage. Fortunately both in Europe and Canada it is much more widely accepted. Then I guess it means taking a trip up North or across the pond twice a year to get legal HRT. Not a great option but I as a clinician I doubt it will come to that.

Wonder why there are people (on this board) making the trip from Europe to USA?

You started right but at the end the wires got crossed, I think.

Just look thru old posts, and see what
asians
canadians
UK
scandinavian
people are going thru.

It is way from perfect, here in USA, and I would like to see big improvement comming soon,
but no thank you for canadian or european systems.

As long as I can get my $3500 blood test on a whim, without being told to wait in line, and then get a $6 bill for all this, I like it here.

As long as I could have had 6 surgeries on my timeline, and in the best hospital of my choosing, and no waiting in line, I am happy camper.


When my Mother need hip replacement, she was told that they were short on prostetics, and that there were people who need it more than she did. That was in Poland, 30 years ago, now is worst.

I know on which side of the bread there is a butter, not in Europe.

 

[Diancecht]

Dont get me wrong, I prefer the US health system and am part of it. Having seen seen medical systems in England, France, Italy, Spain, Switzerland, Germany and Japan I still prefer the ole US. Unfortunately we are bankrolling a very large share of the research costs for the rest of the world which is part of the reason for the high cost of meds. And of course profits and bonus to execs also play a big role.

 

[JanSz]

Dont get me wrong, I prefer the US health system and am part of it. Having seen seen medical systems in England, France, Italy, Spain, Switzerland, Germany and Japan I still prefer the ole US. Unfortunately we are bankrolling a very large share of the research costs for the rest of the world which is part of the reason for the high cost of meds. And of course profits and bonus to execs also play a big role.

If you really realy believe in this,

excellent way of making money,

buy their stocks.

 

[wildfox]

Just had another thought on this thread.

If women can get all sorts of progesterone creams and supplemental estrogen for menopause, it's no less legitimate for men to see supplemental T, etc., for their "natural" hormonal changes.

 

[BigAk]

Just had another thought on this thread.

If women can get all sorts of progesterone creams and supplemental estrogen for menopause, it's no less legitimate for men to see supplemental T, etc., for their "natural" hormonal changes.

True... However, the trouble in the medical community stems from the research study that took place in the ninties.... After many years of HRT application on women the research finally came to prove the total opposite of everything they thought about. For instance, they thought HRT for women prevented heart attacks for decades before the research finally proved the opposite. HRT for men as of today is going through the same pre-research period. There hasn't been a huge long term study that dealt with HRT for men as of today. We're all going by what small short term studies have proven... in addition to the huge hype on the internet. Who knows... maybe a huge long term study would prove the accuracy of everything we know about today.... or may be not???!!!!

This is one of the reason that prompted my thread here... Thousands of women had to abandon their HRT based on the results of that research... Could the same ever happen to us men??

 

[anyman]

It is possible for a reversal in attitudes and beliefs. I believe such to be unlikely

After many years of HRT application on women the research finally came to prove the total opposite of everything they thought about. For instance, they thought HRT for women prevented heart attacks for decades before the research finally proved the opposite. HRT for men as of today is going through the same pre-research period. There hasn't been a huge long term study that dealt with HRT for men as of today. We're all going by what small short term studies have proven... in addition to the huge hype on the internet. Who knows... maybe a huge long term study would prove the accuracy of everything we know about today.... or may be not???!!!!

QUOTE]

It is possible that what we now believe could someday be thought of as largely wrong or at least not entirely correct. I personally do not think this to be exceedingly likely as much of what has been written on the need for adequate T levels has been known for awhile.

However, I do view it as likely that treatment methods will improve and, hopefully, be even more targeted towards HPTA repair/restoration as opposing to system shutting down replacement. But for boards like this how many of us would be limited to local endos/uros telling us to slap on some Androgel and "forgetting" to tell us that our balls will shrink, thus leaving us dependent on it for life?

The problem is the here and now. Many of us are dealing with low T and related issues that require treatment right now. We really cannot wait another 10 or 20 years to see what "might" happen.

 

[JanSz]

True... However, the trouble in the medical community stems from the research study that took place in the ninties.... After many years of HRT application on women the research finally came to prove the total opposite of everything they thought about. For instance, they thought HRT for women prevented heart attacks for decades before the research finally proved the opposite. HRT for men as of today is going through the same pre-research period. There hasn't been a huge long term study that dealt with HRT for men as of today. We're all going by what small short term studies have proven... in addition to the huge hype on the internet. Who knows... maybe a huge long term study would prove the accuracy of everything we know about today.... or may be not???!!!!

This is one of the reason that prompted my thread here... Thousands of women had to abandon their HRT based on the results of that research... Could the same ever happen to us men??

Care to give your angle on how using of horse hormones influenced outcome of that study.

 

[BigAk]

Care to give your angle on how using of horse hormones influenced outcome of that study.

Jan... Progesterone/Estrogen are Progestrone/Estrogen at the end of the day; regardless of where they come from (Vet or human grade).. Don't you think the medical professionals have given this a thought upon doing their research?? I don't read about MD's saying to the general public "Look yal.. We've made a mistake in that last study... Oooopsie... We've meant to use human grade stuff... Consider that last study a bunch of horse play."

Am I missing something else???

 

[BigAk]

The problem is the here and now. Many of us are dealing with low T and related issues that require treatment right now. We really cannot wait another 10 or 20 years to see what "might" happen.

I agree... However, HCG is a huge must just in case different alternatives come about and one would be faced with having to abandon their currnet HRT regimen.