mountainboy
Member
I've seen a couple mentions on the forum's here about taking Epistane stacked with DHEA- what is the advantage of that, and what dosage should the DHEA be at? Also, what is the advantage of a cortisol blocker with PCT? :think:
DHEA & Epistane?
- Thread starter mountainboy
- Start date
LilPsychotic
Well-known member
After a cycle, high cortisol levels are experienced which can wreak havoc on your newly established gains. Anti cort=anti catabolic=better gain retention. I've seen DHEA taken with epistane pulse cycles taken on off days in effort to avoid any rebound effects from skipping days on.
mountainboy
Member
Thanks guys, what dosage of DHEA should be used on cycle? How about during post cycle therapy? Also, should I use a cort blocker during my cycle?
mountainboy
Member
Bump. Anybody?
z28man
Member
I liked 100mg for 3 weeks and 150mg for the last week OK. It was strange, the 1st 2 weeks of havoc/DHEA my libido was great (also using RPM at the time). The last 2 weeks werent as great, even with the increased dose on the last week. Seems like once the havoc really kicked in, the libido boost went bye-bye. I may try 200mg next time with Epistane.
z28man
Member
I don't think you should need to use a cort blocker during cycle, my understanding for the DHEA was to assist with libido/easing shutdown. The anabolic/androgenic effects of the hormone you are taking should be keeping cort low on it's own anyway. PCT, make sure you have a good cort blocker though.
mountainboy
Member
Thanks, I will be taking Retain 2 for my cort blocker and Diesel test hardcore for my post cycle therapy.
mountainboy
Member
Yeah, the reseach I've done seems to show that taking Epi with DHEA lowers sides during and after- good luck on your cycle.
Frequency
Active member
DTH is the only thing your taking after your cycle for a pct...............:frustrate
mountainboy
Member
No, I will also be using a SERM. I have been looking into advanced PCT as well, I'm not sure if I will get that though.
Frequency
Active member
Awsome. I was like **** not another one lol
Dalamara
Member
Have you experienced any gyno symptoms at all?
I'm on my third week of a pulse and notice a little gyno symptoms. I'm thinking it's the bounceback effect on the offdays that's causing it. Adding DHEA seems like it would be a good idea to blunt the bounceback symptoms.
drksun
Banned
i believe dr.d recommended 200mg DHEA on off days, during the pulse cycle. "DHEA is an ACTH-regulated steroid that possesses anti-glucocorticoid properties (Invalid Link Removed)."
How did you run the pule? I just got my bottle of havoc and i was thinking of doing..
10/20/30, 100mg DHEA off days
30/30/30, 200mg DHEA off days
30/30/30, 200mg DHEA off days
40/40/40, 200mg DHEA off days
im debating on using ATD or Fromastane on off days, but epi it self is a strong AI.
Deccadick
Member
Dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate causes proliferation of estrogen receptor-positive breast cancer cells despite treatment with fulvestrant.
Calhoun KE, Pommier RF, Muller P, Fletcher WS, Toth-Fejel S.
Department of General Surgery, Oregon Health and Sciences University, Portland, OR 97201, USA.
HYPOTHESIS: Dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate (DHEA-S) causes a proliferation of estrogen receptor (ER)-positive breast cancer cells, even with tamoxifen citrate blockade. The ER antagonist ICI 182780 (fulvestrant) will more effectively stop the proliferative effect of DHEA-S on breast cancer cells. DESIGN: Examination of in vitro breast cancer cell growth in the presence of fulvestrant and DHEA-S. SETTING: Surgical oncology research laboratory. INTERVENTIONS: The ER-positive and ER-negative breast cancer cells were pretreated with fulvestrant and stimulated with 900 microg/dL (22.8 micromol/L) of DHEA-S. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Assays using 3-(4,5-dimethylthiazol-2-yl)-2,5-diphenyltet
razolium bromide, thiazolyl blue, were performed on the third, fifth, and seventh days poststimulation and permitted the calculation of growth percent change. RESULTS: The ER-positive and progesterone receptor-positive cells demonstrated universal proliferation of 107% by day 7 when treated with fulvestrant, regardless of the dose. The ER-negative and progesterone receptor-negative cells demonstrated growth inhibition. CONCLUSIONS: The DHEA-S circumvented fulvestrant inhibition and caused ER-positive breast cancer cell growth.
Calhoun KE, Pommier RF, Muller P, Fletcher WS, Toth-Fejel S.
Department of General Surgery, Oregon Health and Sciences University, Portland, OR 97201, USA.
HYPOTHESIS: Dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate (DHEA-S) causes a proliferation of estrogen receptor (ER)-positive breast cancer cells, even with tamoxifen citrate blockade. The ER antagonist ICI 182780 (fulvestrant) will more effectively stop the proliferative effect of DHEA-S on breast cancer cells. DESIGN: Examination of in vitro breast cancer cell growth in the presence of fulvestrant and DHEA-S. SETTING: Surgical oncology research laboratory. INTERVENTIONS: The ER-positive and ER-negative breast cancer cells were pretreated with fulvestrant and stimulated with 900 microg/dL (22.8 micromol/L) of DHEA-S. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Assays using 3-(4,5-dimethylthiazol-2-yl)-2,5-diphenyltet
razolium bromide, thiazolyl blue, were performed on the third, fifth, and seventh days poststimulation and permitted the calculation of growth percent change. RESULTS: The ER-positive and progesterone receptor-positive cells demonstrated universal proliferation of 107% by day 7 when treated with fulvestrant, regardless of the dose. The ER-negative and progesterone receptor-negative cells demonstrated growth inhibition. CONCLUSIONS: The DHEA-S circumvented fulvestrant inhibition and caused ER-positive breast cancer cell growth.
drksun
Banned
ouch, so DHEA can aid in gyno? but epi itself is a strong AI and should prevent it.
Deccadick
Member
I guess everyone is unsure at this point. Dr. D states that he has used it for years without any gyno problems. But most of the research states it may cause gyno. But I haven't seen a study done on bodybuilders, which is what we really need to see. I am currently using coleus F. Forslean. and am experiencing some itchy, and sensitive nipples from the stuff. So I am obviously very susceptible to gyno. But then again I have a high percentage of bodyfat at this time, so this probably causes more estrogen problems.
mountainboy
Member
I am on day 9 of halo-tren400 and have been taking rawtest (DHEA and pregnalone) 5on 2 off w/my cycle. I will bridge into epi on week 4 and once the raw test runs out, I plan to use Dermacrine. So far no gyno issues to report (I have high bf as well, I think it just matters about your genes)
cromwell
Member
Do tell, after my epi pulse, I will take time off and post cycle therapy. Then I was really looking at halotren400....looks good! I have lowish bf 10-11 and have never really had any issues with gyno even when I was ass ten years ago and took high dose andro, then high dose 5ad with NO post cycle therapy. But gyno is a wierd beast, now of course being far more educated and many years of chemistry and study later, I am very careful..........CRIKEY!
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mountainboy
Member
Well as far as the Halo-tren 400 I am on my 12th day, I don't really have alot to report- it hasn't seemed to do anything for me yet (I have heard that it takes between 10days and 3 weeks) I started the first week w/2ED on the second week I went to 3ED during the third week I will bump up to 4ED, I'm not sure if I will up my dose anymore than that for the fourth week. I am taking in about 2400- 2500 cals a day w/ ~250 grams protein 45p/35c/20f. I am trying to cut on this cycle. I hope it starts kicking in soon.
cromwell
Member
interesting. I know halo takes a while, but I would think the tren would kick in sooner. The epi is def kicking for me. I'm pulsing did 20,20 today 30 feel great, strong and hard as ****! I am running dhea at 100mg on off days. I have settled on eod for the pulse. I may add propadrol or not? My goal is to clean bulk and go for 10-12 ibs. The increased appetite is awesome:burger:
mountainboy
Member
How long will you pulse the epi for? If I understand right, are you on week 3 @ 30mg EOD? How much weight have you gained? Do you notice any increased size? As far as the Halo-tren, I'm starting to wonder when it will kick in... I hope soon, I haven't lifted since Friday and will lift again tonight- I hope I notice a change.
Werewolf
Active member
I am really surprised he would recommend over 100 mg on off days since it starts becoming suppressive above 100 mg. I guess with a strong enough AI you could easily counter the suppressive effect. Most people that are running DHEA with EPI are doing it to increase estrogen because the joints are drying out too much. I could see running maybe up to 300 mgs during "on days" if that is a problem. You want to run a AI on off days since EPI will be mostly cleared out of your system. ATD's half life is days so when you take it doesn't matter I take it everyday. If you are worried about dry joints during "on days" then Transdermal formastane has about 12 hour life and no libido issues. I am actually running 50 mgs ATD ED. My pulse is not straight EPI.
Werewolf
Active member
I was looking at this one and TrenaPLEX last night. i have some concerns about this combination. It appears that the effective dose of Trenaplex is 150 mgs per day (7.5 pills). The effective dose of Halo is 50 to 75 mg 2 to 3 pills). Halo is very low in suppression and Trenaplex is very suppressive. I have a basic problem with mixing suppressive and low suppressive since you lose the low suppressive benefit. Things that are very suppressive must be run with effective doses or are almost useless since they suppress natural testosterone.
There is also the problem the trenaplex probaly only a 4 hour effective life since it is not methyl or methoxy. It think you need to buy a bottle of Trenaplex to take in between your doses of Halo-Tren 400. I also would guess you are going to need to add some DHEA as you suppress too to keep your estrogen levels up.
I am thinking about buying some Trenaplex as a preworkout stimulate. I love the strength and endurance I get taking 2 to 4 mgs of Mega-TRN preworkout, but I worry about the extra liver loading of a methoxy and the shorter life of Trenaplex should lower suppresive effect by being out of my system by bedtime.
drksun
Banned
sry idk why i wrote that, i was having a brain fart, it should be 25mg not 100+ lol
cromwell
Member
No that was DAY 3. I may have gotten over excited, I started at 20, 20 second day, then 30 yesterday at eod. The big libido boost was not there yesterday and I may have jumped the gun. No worries, I went through a very stressfull day and am sick, so that could have a lot to do with it. I don't "feel shutdown" actually better than average, so I am not going to freak out like some guys do. I will stay at 30, with dhea on days off. I am running 100 mg of dhea (i'm 41) I am still wondering if that is too high. So it still early, but strengh gains are coming, feel tight (feel on to be honest). I will post results after one week, as far as apprecialble gains. I am surprised you are not getting
anything.........think its underdosed?
oh, and I am going to run the first bottle of Havoc, and decide towards the end, depending on where I am.
then I will cycle vitamin water:rofl:
mountainboy
Member
lol, yeah you gotta be careful about that vitamin water- I hear that can shut you down hard! So you are already seeing results on day 3of epi- thats cool to hear, especially since I will be bridging into that soon. So toward the end of the day yesterday, my aggression went through the roof (I wanted to tear somebody's head off), my workout went realy good, no significant weight increases, but I think it is kicking in now, my work shirt is noticable tighter around my upper arms, and last night before my workout, I looked at my physique, and it looks different to me, almost as if to be swollen. I am going to up my dosage to 4 pills today, I had one after breakfast, I'm not sure if I will do 1 after lunch, then 1 pre wo/ 1 pwo, or if I should go with 2 pre wo, and tehn one pwo.
cromwell
Member
good to hear its kicking, for me libido is awesome(just had a bad day monday), and feeling a little more pumped than normal. I have decided to just run one bottle of havoc, take time off, pct then run a conventional cycle of hdrol and propadrol. Man I love epi. If those federal douche bags come after some of the board sponsers, I may go postal:rant:
cromwell
Member
Up 2 ibs in first week. I am considering going up to 40mg next week. I have a question for anyone out there, do you think it is a proplem to switch from eod to two on two off thru out the cycle? Assuming you take at least 3 days off per week? my schedule is a pain and I do'nt want to waste the epi on non training days as they vary.
mountainboy
Member
I would stick w/ the schedule youre on now as your body is actually building the muscle during part of the time that you aren't training- remember muscle is not nade at the gym, it's made @ home during/ after recovery. You might want to start a new thread on this.:bb2:
mountainboy
Member
Cromwell, I also wanted to let you know about the halo-tren 400... My weights have started going up, as well as my cardio ability- my weight when I started was 222.5 lbs. after the first week it dropped to 219.2 and as of today it is 220 lbs even. I am looking more muscular and thinner, I don't know how much bf I have lost as I am waiting to recheck it at the end of my cycle, but I do notice a difference. A side note, aggression is still way up- no other sides to report, I will add in epi next week at 20mgED at the end of that week I will drop the Halo-tren 400.
Werewolf
Active member
Close, but steriods do help during workout and the next day the most. During workout some help with energy and prevention of cortisol attack. Some like tren based ones help with strength during workout. Repair of muscles starts as soon muscle is worked out. Superdrol will help load up muscles with sugar for workout if taken a couple hours before workout.
mountainboy
Member
I learn something new everyday
cromwell
Member
1) have decided to up it to 40 mg next week. Also, I going to alternate eod with 2 on 2 off, to optimize training time.
2) I love me some dhea! Feel good libido is excellent, the only side effect is i'm a little buzzed, more so on off days when I take 100 mg of dhea. That may be the epi, as steroids can be strong CNS stimulants.
3) getting enough decent food is hard, thats always been a problem for me, so I am not trying too hard to be super clean:burg:
I am sitting at about 10% bf, so I am not real worried about it.
My goal is to gain about 10 ibs, and stay around 10%. I have been 20 ibs heavier at the same bf, so it is muscle memory a little (i hope)
That would be some long ass memory!
cromwell
Member
I've never used tren, or a tren ph and I've never felt overly aggressive on anything I have used. Granted, much of what i have used is mild and everyones different. I feel "good" on. My concern with tren is that it has that reputation (probably simply because it is a very powerful steroid) I am pretty tempted to try a tren Ph though. There is a Halodrol clone I have found that looks very similar to the original H50 and after my post cycle therapy, I may just run this w/o the tren ph.
And heres the little list
winstrol(bout 5 weeks a thousand years ago in college. Liked it...epi feels like it kicks earlier)
4ad
1t..ran both several times, my fave was mag 10 at max dose (the caps, not the liquid, for some reason the liquid sucked
M1T..okay, did not really like and got sick. A coinkydink...methinks not
19 nor..good for recomp, but bad shutdown
(what ever that boldenone ph was)...pretty good but ran it with 4ad and 1T so hard to say
M1P...sucks ass......no results other than lethargy and bad shutdown...**** legal gear, those guys can EAT A BAG OF DICKS
well, thats about it....
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cromwell
Member
I love me some Havoc! Up 4 ibs in the first week! And i'm a skinny dude. Sure, i did lose a lot of weight in the last few months due to work and getting ill, but still. Awesome workout yesterday, energy and strength def up
some energy crash about 2-3 hours later but managable
:box: all hail havoc
cromwell
Member
I am going to stick with 30 mg for the forseeable future. At 40mg the cns stimulation is a bit much. Never been on anything that wires you this much, not that it is a bad thing. Gained another pound, waist still at 32, visibly look different. I had some ask if i was "taking something":toofunny:
I said "yeah, fish oil!"
cromwell
Member
trying too as much as possible while not eating total junk. Whats odd is that I feel "full" after taking my dose? I felt that way when I briefly took anavar. It sorts itself out though. Really, since i took so much time off and am hitting it hard, there is probably alot off abdominal and core stimulation, so probabiy my abs are just "tight" like everything else. I really think the dhea helps on off days and am planning on keeping it for PCT. This is hands down the fastest acting compound i have ever used:woohoo:
mountainboy
Member
Cromwell- I am bridging into epi today at 20mg ED for this week- next week I plan to go up to 40mg and drop the Halo-tren. My question is how long did it take you to start to feel effects of epi?
cromwell
Member
Day one. NO ****. At least as far as hammering the workout and getting pumped. By day three (remember I am pulsing) harder and fuller. As i've noted, ten days in and up 5 ibs, plus measurements are up and weights are up. I have'nt bumped up to 40 yet, because of the cns stimulation but I will try it next week. That being said, you're bigger than me, so should'nt be an issue for you. What sucks is that I am a little banged up from my MMA training (hip, rib) so I have to work around stuff a little. But overall, super happy on cycle. Am now planning on pulsing for 6 weeks then we'll see after some pct.
mountainboy
Member
Yeah, I am noticing some absolutely unreal pumps since i added in the epi, :clean: unfortunately my temper has been extremely aggraveted from it too
cromwell
Member
I am up to 40 now and haven't had issues -maybe I just drank too much damn coffee that one day:jaw:
I don't get very aggro on cycle-actually taking dhea has made me happier
Some guys are just more prone to mood changes. I like to think of my progress as happiness, there fore I don't let other **** bother me.
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
This is a very healthy attitude.
Insidious1
Member
Are you all spreading out the DHEA to specific times of the day (i.e. not night time, when estrogen tends to be higher...?)
And are you taking it with meals?
And are you taking it with meals?