Dr.D|||Fenu: Gyno/Estrogen|||Vitex fix it?

[arlowf]

I was just about to buy a bunch of fenugreek when I started reading posts about Fenugreek increasing estrogen, Gyno, and LACTATION!
So what I was wondering was if taking a gram a day of vitex would do anything for making sure I don't get any of those sides. Because sides would suck. I'm 18. Taking the Fenugreek for Libido effects (could be better). Thanks.

 

[DR.D]

There was a thread here not too long ago where some guys were talking about possible gyno from fenugreek. I've never experienced it but I am gyno prone. I think it may stimulate lactation in some, but I have experimented for like 5 or 6 year with it and never associated it with gyno or lactation. I believe that it may work as a false estrogen at estrogen receptors which is a good thing if it's affinity is higher than it's activity. Vitex is an LH suppressant and could improve gyno indirectly, but is not the best application in this case. Give fenugreek a try at a gram/day like you were thinking and see what happens. I really doubt you'll have any probs. Most feedback is positive and I love the stuff. Vitex (chasteberry) on the other hand may hurt libido and test levels over time, be careful.

 

[Scottyo]

i too am gyno prone and used the fenugreek for the first time as per dr. d's recs. granted i also used hcg but it was a long suppressive cycle. that said, I had absolutely no gyno or lactation related incidents. still though, if your 18 looking for libido enhancing effects I would look to see the real cause of that. You SHOULD have a strong libido at 18. Possible causes could be undiagnosed (or diagnosed) depression, overtraining...which I think is a real big culprit, inadequate calories/fat etc.

 

[arlowf]

i too am gyno prone and used the fenugreek for the first time as per dr. d's recs. granted i also used hcg but it was a long suppressive cycle. that said, I had absolutely no gyno or lactation related incidents. still though, if your 18 looking for libido enhancing effects I would look to see the real cause of that. You SHOULD have a strong libido at 18. Possible causes could be undiagnosed (or diagnosed) depression, overtraining...which I think is a real big culprit, inadequate calories/fat etc.

Yeah, it probably is diet and lots of running (LOTS).

 

[TheTom]

I know this is an old thread, but I'm bumping it because,

In this thread Dr.D states that Vitex may be an LH suppressant, and could possibly hurt libido/test levels over time.

My question is, why?

I used the search function so I could read up on Vitex/Chaste berry, and every thread I found supported positive speculation, this was the only one that had negative feedback.

Anyone have some good information/studies for either the pros or the cons, of Vitex?

 

[DR.D]

I know this is an old thread, but I'm bumping it because,

In this thread Dr.D states that Vitex may be an LH suppressant, and could possibly hurt libido/test levels over time.

My question is, why?

I used the search function so I could read up on Vitex/Chaste berry, and every thread I found supported positive speculation, this was the only one that had negative feedback.

Anyone have some good information/studies for either the pros or the cons, of Vitex?

I've got more of an open mind on it now. I didn't like it back then because I knew it had been used for hundreds of years to suppress libido! That sounded like bad news on LH/test, but apparently it isn't suppressive and may give a slight boost, at least initially. Long term use may still turn out to have the opposite effect, though it may be helpful for PCTs or lactation for a few months at a time.

 

[CDONDICI]

Dr. D, could taking trib along with vitex help with the possible negative effects of vitex on LH?

 

[DR.D]

Dr. D, could taking trib along with vitex help with the possible negative effects of vitex on LH?

I'm just not sure. I've never used that combo for very long periods of time and don't have any specific bloodwork when I did. I can't find much data on it either to say one way or another. I'd guess that it should probably help to stack though.

 

[Rostam]

Dr. D, could taking trib along with vitex help with the possible negative effects of vitex on LH?

I did some researche on Vitex and LH release and it seems that vitex inhibit prolactin but has no action on LH and FSH. Here is one study I found:

In vitro prolactin but not LH and FSH release is inhibited by compounds in extracts of Agnus castus: direct evidence for a dopaminergic principle by the dopamine receptor assay.Jarry H, Leonhardt S, Gorkow C, Wuttke W.
Dept. Clinical and Experimental Endocrinology, University of Gottingen, Germany.

Women suffering from premenstrual mastodynia often respond to stimuli of prolactin (Prl) release with a hypersecretion of this hormone. Pharmacological reduction of Prl release by dopamine agonists or treatment with extracts of Agnus castus (AC) improve the clinical situation of patients with such premenstrual symptoms. Extracts of AC contain compounds which inhibit in vivo Prl release in women as well as in vitro from dispersed rat pituitary cells. It is yet unknown whether this inhibitory action of AC is only exerted on Prl release or whether release of other pituitary hormones like LH and FSH is also affected. The effects of AC on LH and FSH release were examined in vitro using rat pituitary cell cultures. To rule out that the Prl-inhibiting properties of AC are at least in part due to a cytotoxic component, pituitary cell cultures were subjected to the MTT test. To assess whether the Prl inhibitory effect of AC preparations is due to compounds acting as dopamine (DA) agonists, we used the corpus striatum membrane DA receptor binding assay. Our results demonstrate for the first time that AC extract contains an active principle that binds to the D2 receptor. Thus, it is very likely that it is this dopaminergic principle which inhibits Prl release in vitro from rat pituitary cells. Furthermore we give evidence for the specificity of action of AC on hormone release, since gonadotropin secretion remained unaffected. The findings of the present study support the therapeutical usefulness of AC extracts for treatment of premenstrual mastodynia which is associated with hypersecretion of Prl. Furthermore, the beneficial effects of AC appear to be due to the inhibition of pituitary Prl release.

In another study (I can't find it anymore) it seems that vitex increase LH slightly and decrease moderately FSH.

 

[DR.D]

... In another study (I can't find it anymore) it seems that vitex increase LH slightly and decrease moderately FSH.

Thanks for the study Rostam. Those are the kind of studies I've seen too. They're just so hard to correlate to guys like us though. They use women, or rats, or in vitro cells and stuff like that. It's def dopaminergic though.

 

[Rostam]

They're just so hard to correlate to guys like us though. They use women, or rats, or in vitro cells and stuff like that. It's def dopaminergic though.

I know. Would be good if any of these studies have been done on males. Not necessarily bodybuilders but just men to see how different the results are or are not.
I don't think this will be the case in any near future.

 

[The Graduate]

this study would appear that it is dose depedant for agnus castus affects of LH/FSH/prolactin:
Entrez PubMed

 

[DR.D]

this study would appear that it is dose depedant for agnus castus affects of LH/FSH/prolactin:
Entrez PubMed

Very interesting! That may explain the mixed results.

 

[yeahright]

Very interesting! That may explain the mixed results.

So reading this study, it would appear that low doses of vitex INCREASE prolactin while high doses slightly decrease it (in healthy male humans). Am I reading that summary correct?

 

[strategicmove]

I do not want to trigger a new debate here, but I am not sure I understand why fenugreek is claimed to cause gynecomastia and hike prolactin levels. As far as I know, fenugreek contains secondary plant extracts, especially 4-Hydroxy-Isoleucine, the steroidal saponines trigofoenoside A-G and Aglycones such as diosgenin (direct testosterone percursor), yamogenin, gitogenin, smilagenin und tigogenin, that optimize hormone levels, insulin metabolism, and healthy blood sugar levels. Or am I completely wrong?

 

[jasonschaffin]

:saw:

1: Hormones (Athens). 2007 Jan-Mar;6(1):80-2. Links
Endocrinology in ancient Sparta.Tsoulogiannis IN, Spandidos DA.
Medical School, University of Crete, Heraklion, Crete, Greece.

This article attempts to analyze the crucial link between the plant Agnus castus and human health, particularly hormonal status, with special reference to the needs of the society of ancient Sparta. The ancient Spartans used Agnus both as a cure for infertility and as a remedy to treat battle wounds. These special properties were recognized by the sanctuary of Asclepios Agnita, which was located in Sparta, as well as by medical practitioners in Sparta during the classical, Hellenistic and Roman ages.

PMID: 17324922 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Maybe if I mega-dose I can become a spartan warrior?!

 

[jasonschaffin]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=16439081&ordinalpos=7&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

also binds to opiate receptors

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=14648399&ordinalpos=15&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

and estrogen receptors

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=12605350&ordinalpos=20&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

increases melatonin release IN MALES!

 

[rpen22]

I do not want to trigger a new debate here, but I am not sure I understand why fenugreek is claimed to cause gynecomastia and hike prolactin levels. As far as I know, fenugreek contains secondary plant extracts, especially 4-Hydroxy-Isoleucine, the steroidal saponines trigofoenoside A-G and Aglycones such as diosgenin (direct testosterone percursor), yamogenin, gitogenin, smilagenin und tigogenin, that optimize hormone levels, insulin metabolism, and healthy blood sugar levels. Or am I completely wrong?

All I know is that when you google search Fenugreek, a couple of the pages are about using it to increase milk supply for breastfeeding.

 

[yeahright]

I do not want to trigger a new debate here, but I am not sure I understand why fenugreek is claimed to cause gynecomastia and hike prolactin levels. As far as I know, fenugreek contains secondary plant extracts, especially 4-Hydroxy-Isoleucine, the steroidal saponines trigofoenoside A-G and Aglycones such as diosgenin (direct testosterone percursor), yamogenin, gitogenin, smilagenin und tigogenin, that optimize hormone levels, insulin metabolism, and healthy blood sugar levels. Or am I completely wrong?

Triggering debate is a good thing (as long as it is intelligent debate). You're on the right track.

 

[ohiostate2827]

i take fenugreek on 6 weeks off 4 weeks at 3 grams a day and i have had no sides whats so ever. i just smell like french toast on my arm pits. sex is more intense,nuts hang lower and loads are bigger. i have been running this cycle for about 6 months now.

 

[jluce50]

i take fenugreek on 6 weeks off 4 weeks at 3 grams a day and i have had no sides whats so ever. i just smell like french toast on my arm pits. sex is more intense,nuts hang lower and loads are bigger. i have been running this cycle for about 6 months now.

How quickly do these effects disappear once you start your off cycle?

 

[xjsynx]

All I know is that when you google search Fenugreek, a couple of the pages are about using it to increase milk supply for breastfeeding.

You ain't kidding.

 

[xjsynx]

i take fenugreek on 6 weeks off 4 weeks at 3 grams a day and i have had no sides whats so ever. i just smell like french toast on my arm pits. sex is more intense,nuts hang lower and loads are bigger. i have been running this cycle for about 6 months now.

LOL. Yeah my piss smelt like Maple Syrup...

 

[ohiostate2827]

my gf says i taste better and she gets cravings for it now lol