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    Stack Reference Thread


    Hey fellas (and gals),

    I would like to create an easy reference point for those looking for effective stacks. I will be listing a few different stacks with ingredients that have been well received on the boards or have been researched.

    The stacks will include dosages and preferred timings. Please feel free to adjust or add/subtract information.

    Mitochondrial Optimization, AMPK Activation, & Peptide Hormone Release Stack:
    ALCAR - 2g
    Agmatine - 1g
    Na-R-Ala - 300mg
    PLCAR - 2g
    CoQ10 - 400mg (or 200mg of ubiquinol)

    -Dose PLCAR away from ALCAR
    -Dose PLCAR preworkout
    -Dose CoQ10 w/ PLCAR or dose CoQ10 w/ fats
    -Dose ALCAR, Agmatine, & Na-R-Ala 15-20 before a high-carb meal
    -Dose ALCAR on an empty stomach for study purposes

    Glutathione Boosting Stack:
    NAC - 600mg-1.2g
    TMG - 2.5g
    Selenium - 100-200mcg
    SAMe - 200-400mg

    -Dose TMG anytime of the day
    -Dose NAC & SAMe in the morning and evening
    -Keep an eye on additional selenium intake (i.e. other products containing selenium/brazil nuts/etc.)

    Ergogen Stack:
    Creatine - 2.5-5g (Preferred forms: Orotate/MCC/Nitrate/Monohydrate)
    Beta Alanine - 3.2g
    LCLT - 3g
    Citrulline Malate - 3-9g
    Caffeine - Dosage dependent on user
    Nitrates - As part of a designer product (e.g. Creatine Nitrate/Powershock/etc.)

    -Dose creatine on workout days only
    -Dose beta alanine any time of the day
    -Dose LCLT preworkout
    -Dose citrulline malate preworkout
    -Dose nitrates anytime before workout due to long half-life

    Health Stack:
    Fish/Krill Oil - 2-3g EPA/DHA
    Citicoline - 500mg-1g
    Magnesium - Depends on salt (Preferred forms: magnesium orotate/magnesium glycinate/magnesium taurate)
    B-Complex - Look for complex including cofactors (e.g. methylcobalamin/P5P/etc.)
    Vitamin C - 500mg (Plasma saturation is reached at 500mg)
    Melatonin - 250mcg-1mg
    Green Tea Extract - 750mg EGCG total daily (see notes below)

    -Dose fish oil & vitamin C as far away from workout as possible
    -Dose B-Complex with each meal
    -Dose citicoline in AM/PM
    -Dose magnesium at night
    -Dose 250mg EGCG before each meal to reach 750mg daily

    Reference Threads:
    Betaine As An Ergogenic Aid
    How to Construct a Basic Supplement Stack
    L-Carnitine-L-Tartrate
    Ergogenic benefits of nitrates
    http://jasoncholewa.com/

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    I still wanna know why do you want mitochondrial optimization so much, though generally I liked the set up...easy to get, just mark there that unless deficient one should not be taking more than 500mg of Vitamin C a day...since it says "with each meal" it can give way for people to use it in a more abundant manner

    ALCAR , Agmatine and Na-R-Ala PRE high carb meal, not along with it...make sure at least some 20 minutes before it.

    Good stuff here domore!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    I still wanna know why do you want mitochondrial optimization so much, though generally I liked the set up...easy to get, just mark there that unless deficient one should not be taking more than 500mg of Vitamin C a day...since it says "with each meal" it can give way for people to use it in a more abundant manner

    ALCAR , Agmatine and Na-R-Ala PRE high carb meal, not along with it...make sure at least some 20 minutes before it.

    Good stuff here domore!
    Thanks for the comments, cel.

    Regardless of the term mitochondrial optimization, those supplements will obviously confer more than mitochondrial optimization. I just used the term since it is something associated with those supplements. Also, it is an area that interests me.

    Yes, plasma saturation is reached with just 500mg of vitamin C--any more vitamin C in one sitting is no good.

    Good catch on the timing of Na-R-Ala, agmatine, and Alcar. I skipped over that before I sent it.
    EvoMuse
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    You really need to look into pqq if you want to optimize mitochondria
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    Quote Originally Posted by fightbackhxc View Post
    You really need to look into pqq if you want to optimize mitochondria
    I've looked into PQQ. There isn't too much research in healthy individuals. Also, I spoke with Coop a while back, and he said that:

    So far though, the research has been unsuccessful, so I wouldn't get my hopes too hung up on PQQ. Not to mention that due to homology between mitochondria and prokaryotes, PQQ can stimulate bacterial infection if taken systemically.
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    Well done, domore, seriously. I'd bump the LCLT up to 3 grams since most (but not all!) studies use 2g L-carnitine as LCLT, which amounts to ~3g actual LCLT.

    For the health stack, I'd add 250mcg-1mg melatonin. It is actually one of the most researched health supplements out there (if not the most researched). I also believe that, while not a supplement, 81mg aspirin/day is great for both health and even body composition (fat loss via AMPK stimulation).
    http://pescience.com/
    http://selectprotein.com/
    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    Already use quite a bit of these at these doses (we obviously follow the same train of though, reading sources, etc). Will be keeping this page saved as a good resource and to probably add a couple of these (actually just started COQ 10 again, need to pick up some PLCAR, and unfortunately taking some time off Agmatine).

    I agree I prefer 3-4g LCLT all pre-workout. Idk if it really makes any tangible differences from 2g but it is usually what I do.

    I will probably reference this thread a lot, keep it updated with any new additions or thoughts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Well done, domore, seriously. I'd bump the LCLT up to 3 grams since most (but not all!) studies use 2g L-carnitine as LCLT, which amounts to ~3g actual LCLT.

    For the health stack, I'd add 250mcg-1mg melatonin. It is actually one of the most researched health supplements out there (if not the most researched). I also believe that, while not a supplement, 81mg aspirin/day is great for both health and even body composition (fat loss via AMPK stimulation).
    Thank you, Coop. This idea was spurred by a lot of your posts.

    I'll change the LCLT to 3g.

    I was going to include melatonin, but I'm not sure why I decided to keep it off the list. The longevity-types love melatonin. I'll add that, too.

    I'll the let posters speak with their doctor before going on an Aspirin regimen. (because I'm definitely not a doctor)

    Quote Originally Posted by bolt10 View Post
    Already use quite a bit of these at these doses (we obviously follow the same train of though, reading sources, etc). Will be keeping this page saved as a good resource and to probably add a couple of these (actually just started COQ 10 again, need to pick up some PLCAR, and unfortunately taking some time off Agmatine).

    I agree I prefer 3-4g LCLT all pre-workout. Idk if it really makes any tangible differences from 2g but it is usually what I do.

    I will probably reference this thread a lot, keep it updated with any new additions or thoughts.
    I just wanted to create a thread with everything together, including researched dosings/timings. I'll be sure to try to keep it updated.

    Please post any updates!
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    Re: melatonin. When do you take this? I thought it makes you sleepy. And how much?

    Sent from my iPhone using Am.com
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    Quote Originally Posted by dallasboy22 View Post
    Re: melatonin. When do you take this? I thought it makes you sleepy. And how much?

    Sent from my iPhone using Am.com
    I'm pretty sure he uses it before bed....
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    Good and informative, good job.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dallasboy22 View Post
    Re: melatonin. When do you take this? I thought it makes you sleepy. And how much?

    Sent from my iPhone using Am.com
    Yes, as airborne said, take it before you go to sleep. I do not use it, but there a copious amounts of studies on pubmed.gov, regarding its health benefits.
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    Quote Originally Posted by domore View Post
    Yes, plasma saturation is reached with just 500mg of vitamin C--any more vitamin C in one sitting is no good.
    Also the elimination rate is so fast it seems best to use specifically time released tabs to keep saturation. I worked at Hoffman La Roche for the R&D team that did the formulation + flavorings for the Sunkist chews that came in the lifesaver style packs
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Also the elimination rate is so fast it seems best to use specifically time released tabs to keep saturation. I worked at Hoffman La Roche for the R&D team that did the formulation + flavorings for the Sunkist chews that came in the lifesaver style packs
    That is pretty cool. Thanks for the input!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Well done, domore, seriously. I'd bump the LCLT up to 3 grams since most (but not all!) studies use 2g L-carnitine as LCLT, which amounts to ~3g actual LCLT.

    For the health stack, I'd add 250mcg-1mg melatonin. It is actually one of the most researched health supplements out there (if not the most researched). I also believe that, while not a supplement, 81mg aspirin/day is great for both health and even body composition (fat loss via AMPK stimulation).
    Coop,

    How does the glutathione stack look? How about timing on those?
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    Quote Originally Posted by domore View Post
    Coop,

    How does the glutathione stack look? How about timing on those?
    I like selenium at 100mcg these days simply to allow room for dietary consumption. Also, TMG shows signs of improving the "hormonal milieu" if used preworkout, though I stand firmly behind daily dosing for other benefits.

    I do have other suggestions but you'll just have to wait for our health series release .
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    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    Re: Stack Reference Thread


    Do you think Krill a viable option to fish oil pills? I'm skeptical on those still...

    Either way great list bro!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valdez View Post
    Do you think Krill a viable option to fish oil pills? I'm skeptical on those still...

    Either way great list bro!
    - Valdez
    No, but the astaxanthin does have other benefits
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    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    I think Green Tea , ALCAR and Na-R-Ala would be awesome additions to the health stack. Anti-oxidants can be real helpful for overall wellbeing.
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    Subbed ))
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    I think Green Tea , ALCAR and Na-R-Ala would be awesome additions to the health stack. Anti-oxidants can be real helpful for overall wellbeing.
    Good call on the GTE, forgot about that. Reduces risk of a ton of chronic illnesses. I know dinoiii isn't a fan but he's comparing mediocre, largely irrelevant data to crushing evidence in all sorts of human populations.
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    ya subbed
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    I like selenium at 100mcg these days simply to allow room for dietary consumption. Also, TMG shows signs of improving the "hormonal milieu" if used preworkout, though I stand firmly behind daily dosing for other benefits.

    I do have other suggestions but you'll just have to wait for our health series release .
    I've been taking 200mcg, so I may move down to 100mcg because I do have a pretty well-rounded diet. I've talked with ZiR Red about his TMG research, and his research is pretty convincing. Should dosing be AM/PM for NAC and SAMe?

    Oh, you are your unreleased sku's

    Quote Originally Posted by Valdez View Post
    Do you think Krill a viable option to fish oil pills? I'm skeptical on those still...

    Either way great list bro!
    - Valdez
    I just threw the krill oil on their for it's other potential benefits (i.e. astaxanthin). If someone were to choose one or the other, he should choose fish oil simply because of the levels of the most important components of Omega 3 fatty acids. One won't get much from 53mg EPA/37mg DHA.

    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    No, but the astaxanthin does have other benefits
    How about astaxanthin by itself? (sans the krill oil)

    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Good call on the GTE, forgot about that. Reduces risk of a ton of chronic illnesses. I know dinoiii isn't a fan but he's comparing mediocre, largely irrelevant data to crushing evidence in all sorts of human populations.
    I'll add GTE to the list. Dose/timing?
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    This is a great thread. Tons of good info flowing through. Awesome!
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    Nice list. I already have a number of these as staples and have dabbled with the others from time to time. With regards to the Agmatine, I know it can be expensive, but I found 2-2.5g taken daily was much better (i did this daily for over 6 months).
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    so cool.

    i wonder if there are applications in restoring gut flora after courses of antibiotics, perhaps nestled inside of time-release probiotic caps...
    anybody?
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    low-dose melatonin is smart.

    read this at another site (can i post the name?)
    Strength athletes who believe in the positive effect of the GH peak, could experiment with melatonin supplementation before working out. Low-dose melatonin supplements containing 0.1 mg melatonin per tablet are available in every drug store. Five of these should make up an effective dose. If you take them during the day you shouldn’t have problems with sleepiness: the dose is too light for that.You could combine melatonin with a mild stimulant, such as caffeine. This not only helps combat sleepiness, but may also boost the effect of the melatonin supplement on the growth hormone peak. One theory is that melatonin stimulates growth hormone secretion by stimulating the secretion of the hormone GHRH. You can increase the manufacture of GHRH during exercise through central alpha-1 and alpha-2 adrenergic stimulation. Read: by using mild stimulants such as caffeine.
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    oh, and one more thing.

    some people feel wired with tmg, and so elect to take it earlier in the day.
    does not seem to affect most people, and i am not sure why, but someone on this forum likely does know...?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    No, but the astaxanthin does have other benefits

    I did a youtube video a long time ago on Astaxanthin. It can be seen on my page FITFABAND40 - if interested

    MFT
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    Stack Reference Thread


    Why dose PLCAR and ALCAR separate? I usually took them together.
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    I checked out this post via the AM newsletter. I thought the stacks would be more of what I'm used to, lol. None of these stacks I recognize or really understand. Truthfully, if I add one more supplement to my day, I don't think I'll have time to do anything but take pills haha.

    BUT .... having said that ...... I'm just about finished with a relatively non-successful LeCheeck stack. So I'm looking for a new stack to hopeful a) get leaner and b) build muscle. Any recommendations?

    Thanks in advance for any input!
    MFT
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    What is TMG? What does it do?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricroc View Post
    What is TMG? What does it do?
    Trimethylglycine aka Betaine Anhydrous.

    Betaine As An Ergogenic Aid
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    Quote Originally Posted by MM11 View Post
    Why dose PLCAR and ALCAR separate? I usually took them together.
    If you dose them together they counteract eachother for absorption reasons. I would dose alcar pre workout then plcar either in AM or PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MM11 View Post
    Why dose PLCAR and ALCAR separate? I usually took them together.
    Quote Originally Posted by kbayne View Post
    If you dose them together they counteract eachother for absorption reasons. I would dose alcar pre workout then plcar either in AM or PM.
    Yes, there has been some evidence (in CFS patients, mind you) that they competitively inhibit one another.

    I, on the other hand, like ALCAR in the morning (or before a high carbohydrate meal w/ Na-R-Ala & Agmatine) and PLCAR preworkout. To each his own. I do like two grams of ALCAR (on an empty stomach) before studying, reading, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by ricroc View Post
    What is TMG? What does it do?
    Quote Originally Posted by bolt10 View Post
    Trimethylglycine aka Betaine Anhydrous.

    Betaine As An Ergogenic Aid
    Thanks, bolt. This is a good thread, ricroc. Also, do a search for member, ZiR Red. He completed his doctoral dissertation on TMG (Betaine Anhydrous).

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxFitTrainer View Post
    I checked out this post via the AM newsletter. I thought the stacks would be more of what I'm used to, lol. None of these stacks I recognize or really understand. Truthfully, if I add one more supplement to my day, I don't think I'll have time to do anything but take pills haha.

    BUT .... having said that ...... I'm just about finished with a relatively non-successful LeCheeck stack. So I'm looking for a new stack to hopeful a) get leaner and b) build muscle. Any recommendations?

    Thanks in advance for any input!
    MFT
    This thread is providing information on a variety of different supplement protocols with efficacious doses. This lends to the idea of buying supplements in bulk to reach desired doses and timings. I'm not taking each of these because it would be cumbersome, expensive, and, most likely, unwarranted.

    If you are looking to build muscle/get lean, look into the supplements under the "Ergogen Stack." A stack of creatine monohydrate, beta-alanine, caffeine, and alcar would be a nice stack.
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    Thanks for starting this thread, lot of good information being posted
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    Quote Originally Posted by domore View Post
    I've been taking 200mcg, so I may move down to 100mcg because I do have a pretty well-rounded diet. I've talked with ZiR Red about his TMG research, and his research is pretty convincing. Should dosing be AM/PM for NAC and SAMe?

    Oh, you are your unreleased sku's



    I just threw the krill oil on their for it's other potential benefits (i.e. astaxanthin). If someone were to choose one or the other, he should choose fish oil simply because of the levels of the most important components of Omega 3 fatty acids. One won't get much from 53mg EPA/37mg DHA.



    How about astaxanthin by itself? (sans the krill oil)



    I'll add GTE to the list. Dose/timing?
    One of the major benefits of krill oil is that the astaxanthin prevents lipid peroxidation of epa/dha (which are very prone to such). So I would really only take it via krill oil.

    I like 750mg EGCG daily, split into 250mg doses (one before each meal).
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    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxFitTrainer View Post
    I checked out this post via the AM newsletter. I thought the stacks would be more of what I'm used to, lol. None of these stacks I recognize or really understand. Truthfully, if I add one more supplement to my day, I don't think I'll have time to do anything but take pills haha.

    BUT .... having said that ...... I'm just about finished with a relatively non-successful LeCheeck stack. So I'm looking for a new stack to hopeful a) get leaner and b) build muscle. Any recommendations?

    Thanks in advance for any input!
    MFT
    Start here: How to Construct a Basic Supplement Stack
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    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    Quote Originally Posted by jin View Post
    so cool.

    i wonder if there are applications in restoring gut flora after courses of antibiotics, perhaps nestled inside of time-release probiotic caps...
    anybody?
    Yes, but the issue is that antibiotics wipe out tens of billions of gut probiotics. A few pills won't fix the issue, but continued use will.
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