Stack Reference Thread
- 01-12-2013, 12:46 PM
- 01-12-2013, 01:28 PM
Granted, this is presented by people who really want to sell you melatonin, but it does seem to have a broad array of benefits. In the classic life extension-ista mindset..you have lots of melatonin when you are young, it declines greatly as you age, then your hair falls out and you prowl fitness boards trying to regain your former glory..er, oh wait, that's just internal monologue...
LE Magazine, October 1996 - Update: New Findings On Melatonin
A newer article...Beyond Sleep: 7 Ways Melatonin Attacks Aging Factors - Life Extension
- 01-12-2013, 01:31 PM
Hm seeing how there's many veterans of the sport and industry here...why not help domore update the first post, and add a:
"Anti-Aging" natty stack or more like a "Older and wiser" stack for the declines that come for 35+ folk, it could help a lot of them that are barely arriving to the forum-prowling era of their lives.>SNS-Glycophase<Serious Nutrition Solutions Rep
01-12-2013, 02:01 PM
01-12-2013, 02:14 PM
Nice info. Should MCC be taken only on workout days? Or just mono?
"no failure is final, nor is any success"
01-12-2013, 02:22 PM
01-12-2013, 02:29 PM
01-12-2013, 03:03 PM
01-13-2013, 06:59 PM
01-13-2013, 08:38 PM
01-15-2013, 05:18 PM
What does everyone think of adding methylcobalamin to the Glutiathione stack?
I figure it would fit nicely being a methyl donor, and participates in the synthesis of SAMe?
01-15-2013, 05:24 PM
01-15-2013, 06:18 PM
A few questions:
1. What does "glutiathione" mean/refer to?
2. Na-Rala--what's this good for/help with? How does it differ from R-ALA, aside from the obvious?
Any answers or links to these would be a great help. Thanks!
01-15-2013, 06:30 PM
01-15-2013, 06:53 PM
01-15-2013, 08:27 PM
SAMe is a part of the methionine cycle, in which methionine is converted into SAMe. Then, SAMe will become S−Adenosyl Homocysteine after losing its methyl group. SAH will then be converted to homocysteine. At this point, homocysteine either converts back into methionine or it enters the transsulfuration pathway to convert into cysteine, which can be used in the formation of glutathione. With that said, I don't think extra methionine is warranted.
C and E are fine. Although, I would be sure to find a tocotrienol/tocopherol product instead of one that utilizes alpha-tocopherol.
Here is a quote from Dr. Houser:
This board is HOPEFULLY full of people who are intensely involved in anaerobic (weight/sprint/etc...) training and I will say +/- aerobic training. Not assumed as the generally sedentary lay-population used in said studies unfortunately.
The rationale is the same reason I hate when people try and apply suggested data on Vitamin E (especially when solely alpha-tocopherol is used as monotherapy).
Anyway; one must consider the amount of free radical generated on a daily basis (each time you go to the gym, each time you put something in your mouth - healthy or otherwise, oxidizing fat en route to a svelte physique you hold dear, and so on...EVERYTHING generates free radicals). Vitamin E works in synergy with the endogenous antioxidant glutathione to quench lipid peroxidation. But to do so, glutathione needs selenium which "holds" lipid radicals so that glutathione can get a crack at them. Selenium is also required for vitamin E to function properly.
NOW - ANYTHING (statin drugs, niacin, etc...) that modifies lipids (cholesterol, et al...) WILL alter glucose metabolism to some degree. Its funny how frequent this is forgotten especially by the authors of silly studies suggesting increased incidence of insulin resistance and/or diabetes development when not using clamp studies, but alas I digress.
Its not much use, however, taking selenium, if you don't have enough glutathione in the first place. Intense exercise (granted, probably 95% of gym-goers, and possibly even a good percentage who read these boards do not really embark on truly "intense" exercsie can deplete muscle glutathione by 40% and liver glutathione (from which the muscles get their refills, like glycogen) by 80%! So, rightfully so - I probably should have suggested some conditions with the dosing of selenium:
1. Barring you are truly doing "INTENSE" exercise (defined in anaerobic training as HOW close you lift to your 1RM, not by speed...there is a speed component in transitioning from aerobic to anaerobic in what is generally thought of as cardio - a shift from a jog to a sprint).
2. Fat oxidation is truly something being incorporated into your physique regimen (both on a microscopic level: if you have not had a NMR analysis by Lipo Science and evaluation of your Lp(a) and Homocysteine scores; you won't really be able to identify this -AND- on a macroscopic level: your outward phenotype).
3. You are somehow regenerating glutathione lost with exercise (which people don't generally put a lot of credence on). What I may have qualified my statement with is use of the generalized antioxidant stack: Selenomethionine + NAC + SAMe (with B Vitamins as co-factors), but there are very few products that would supply this in what I feel people really need.
While selenium supply isn't necessarily a bad one with most people's diets - let's take bodybuilder modifications: low-carb, cyclical macro, hyper- and hypo-caloric, etc... BUT also consider that selenium is NOT as well-defined in soil and farmer's don't turn profit enough to give a damn on replenishment.
But, I do appreciate you keeping me honest here. I more than likely should have said that #10 was collectively: Selenomethionine + NAC + SAMe (or TMG I suppose as "poor man's SAMe") + B vitamins (but Bs were already coming in at #1 for so many different co-factor reasons) and barring exercise intensity was up to par (recall that you will harbor some level of insulin resistance - even non-diabetic with as littel as > 48 hours of inactivity; the studies illustrated are not ideal to apply to most I would hope to campaign for on this board.
01-15-2013, 08:29 PM
01-15-2013, 08:57 PM
I will be using Jarrow B-Right, NAC, Selenium, TMG, ALA, Milk Thistle and Vit E (tocotrienol/tocopherol).
With a family of heart disease, I am also using Vit C/Lysine/Proline; using the Linus Pauling ratios modified for 500 mg Vit C every 4 hours, as well as using Carsosine, Vit K1, Vit K2, Benfothiamine.
This is all good stuff. Thank you.
01-15-2013, 11:19 PM
01-31-2013, 11:26 PM
03-21-2013, 02:41 PM
Is it safe to assume that these stacks are to be run alongside the ACES vitamin scheme? The stack I've just started crosses between the stacks you have recommended
03-21-2013, 03:33 PM
If you are going to follow ACES, be sure to use the appropriate forms of the vitamins (e.g., mixed carotenoids, mixed tocopherol/tocotrienols, and activated selenium).
03-21-2013, 04:25 PM
Awesome...As of now i'm running..
- 10,000 IU Natural Beta Carotene (Solaray)
- Jarrows FamilE( Both Tocopherols and Tocotrienols)
- 100mcg Selenium (yeast free form "L-selenomethionine")
- 2.5-3 grams Vit. C (ascorbic acid w/ Bioflavonoids)
- 3 servings Jarrows B-right
- 3-5 grams B12 (Methylcoblamin)
- 5 grams Vitamin D
- 3-3.5 grams Beta Alanine
- 2 grams Tyrosine
- 300 mg Na-R-ALA, ginger root, Cinnamon Bark...15 minutes later pop 2grams ALCAR...15 minutes later Heavy Carb meal (150-200grams). I do this twice daily before my heaviest carb meals.
- Multi Mineral supplement before bed
- 10 grams Glycine before bed
Any thoughts/Suggestions? Thanks for quick response Domore
03-21-2013, 04:35 PM
03-21-2013, 05:34 PM
-Since you are following ACES, make sure you follow 5 on, 2 off for A, E, S, and D.
-Take A, E, and D with meals since they are fat soluble.
-You can dose B and C everyday, but by following the typical Western diet you will reach adequate (and mostly likely excess) levels of B vitamins.
-Drop your dose of vitamin C to 500mg. Plasma saturation is reached at 500mg, and at higher doses it can become pro-oxidant.
-I'm guessing you mean 5,000 IU of vitamin D.
-Watch your selenium intake. You are on the right track by taking only 100mcg, but after your diet and other supplements (multi-mineral), it may add up quickly.
-You're fine with the creatine, citrulline malate, tyrosine, and beta alanine doses. After about a month, keep your creatine dose to around 3-5g and only dose it on your workout days. PCr stores won't decrease overnight, so you are fine dosing it on workout days only.
For what reason are you doing glycine?
03-21-2013, 05:55 PM
Thanks For Response again.
A,E,S,D I dose 5 days on/ 2 days off as you already suggested
C,B complex, and B12 are 7 days a week. And I already dose C at 500 mg per sitting w/meal due to plasma saturation. The 2-3g is a refrence to my daily totals. Ill adjust my B complex intake to suit my diet.
D. Yes 5,000 IU, I apologize
My multi mineral sup. only has trace amounts of Selenium (4mcg). I am very careful in regards to dosing the mineral. Thus I only supplement with 100mcg compared to must suggestions of 200mcg.
Creatine only on workout days after a month...got it.
I dose pure glycine for recovery benefits. Studies I've read suggest it aids in cartilage repair etc. I notice a difference especially in my knees when supplementing with it. What's your opinion on the amino acid?
03-21-2013, 05:59 PM
03-21-2013, 06:01 PM
03-21-2013, 06:03 PM
I just recently purchased Glycine, and plan on taking 3 Gr about 30 minutes prior to bed, along w/ Melatonin. So, I, too, have heard reovery and sleep benefits from Glycine.
03-21-2013, 06:04 PM
03-21-2013, 06:05 PM
03-21-2013, 06:06 PM
03-21-2013, 06:11 PM
03-21-2013, 06:11 PM
With that said (with respect to carnitines), you could have a dosing pattern like this (for whichever salt you choose):I do think that the total carnitine concentration is pertinent and oftentimes not addressed accordingly because of various supplement study directives. It is not to suggest certain carnitine salts would hold pertinence in different settings (in other words, that PLC couldn't be better suited for AR upregulation; just that they don't have the vested-interest studies that are done with LCLT). But, in the sense of evidence-based, a mixture of salts is what I recommend until research does better answer this question.
Now, the problem (for anyone in manufacturing) with PLC is that it frankly is a sticky nightmare in manufacturing of quality PLC source, so - like the COP scenario - finding a quality source may be a true issue. I did mention a supplement on the horizon that manages to do what quadracarn may not - but the snag with its release was PLC, and unfortunately...LCF had to be used to replace production issues and I assure you that projects I am involved in are better-sourced that things you may find on the net elsewhere...period, so the issue is the ingredient unfortunately.
But, yes, I do agree that carnitine salts (Possibly would agree with ALCAR > LCLT > PLC; don't care...probably comes down to total carnitine shuttling efforts anyway...so if you were going to go with one alone, I think even 6 grams of ALCAR would be the primary thought and so on if you could afford it, even more so with wasted prop blended crap that people invest in or woefully fictitious sh*t that plagues supplement site storefronts) should be considered a staple in every serious lifter and life extension enthusiast period (and yes, Na-R-ALA as a coupling effort with ALCAR would be ideal for those well-versed in the benefits).
ALCAR - 2g in AM or preworkout
PLCAR - 2g in AM or preworkout
LCLT - 2g preworkout
Fumarate - 2g preworkout
03-21-2013, 06:13 PM
At night, it has recently been Mucuna, GABA, Melatonin, B12, and I'll be adding glycine.
Duriung the day, I take a whole host of things - some of which were discussed earlier in the thread.
03-21-2013, 06:15 PM
Any issues with absorbtion/uptake with LCLT/PLCAR when taking simultaneously? I know there are issues when ALCAR is combined with either but havent read anything about LCLT and PLCAR together. I was thinking 2 grams ALCAR in the morning with my NA-R-ALA dosage and then 2g PLCAR and 2g LCLT pre-workout (4 days a week)
03-21-2013, 06:19 PM
03-22-2013, 05:02 PM
For nutrient shuttling effects of agmatine - 500mg 20 mins prior to carb meal correct? Or with the meal?
"no failure is final, nor is any success"
03-22-2013, 05:09 PM
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