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    Quote Originally Posted by domore View Post
    Hey fellas (and gals),

    I would like to create an easy reference point for those looking for effective stacks. I will be listing a few different stacks with ingredients that have been well received on the boards or have been researched.

    The stacks will include dosages and preferred timings. Please feel free to adjust or add/subtract information.

    Mitochondrial Optimization, AMPK Activation, & Peptide Hormone Release Stack:
    ALCAR - 2g
    Agmatine - 1g
    Na-R-Ala - 300mg
    PLCAR - 2g
    CoQ10 - 400mg (or 200mg of ubiquinol)

    -Dose PLCAR away from ALCAR
    -Dose PLCAR preworkout
    -Dose CoQ10 w/ PLCAR or dose CoQ10 w/ fats
    -Dose ALCAR, Agmatine, & Na-R-Ala 15-20 before a high-carb meal
    -Dose ALCAR on an empty stomach for study purposes

    Glutathione Boosting Stack:
    NAC - 600mg-1.2g
    TMG - 2.5g
    Selenium - 100-200mcg
    SAMe - 200-400mg

    -Dose TMG anytime of the day
    -Dose NAC & SAMe in the morning and evening
    -Keep an eye on additional selenium intake (i.e. other products containing selenium/brazil nuts/etc.)

    Ergogen Stack:
    Creatine - 2.5-5g (Preferred forms: Orotate/MCC/Nitrate/Monohydrate)
    Beta Alanine - 3.2g
    LCLT - 3g
    Citrulline Malate - 3-9g
    Caffeine - Dosage dependent on user
    Nitrates - As part of a designer product (e.g. Creatine Nitrate/Powershock/etc.)

    -Dose creatine on workout days only
    -Dose beta alanine any time of the day
    -Dose LCLT preworkout
    -Dose citrulline malate preworkout
    -Dose nitrates anytime before workout due to long half-life

    Health Stack:
    Fish/Krill Oil - 2-3g EPA/DHA
    Citicoline - 500mg-1g
    Magnesium - Depends on salt (Preferred forms: magnesium orotate/magnesium glycinate/magnesium taurate)
    B-Complex - Look for complex including cofactors (e.g. methylcobalamin/P5P/etc.)
    Vitamin C - 500mg (Plasma saturation is reached at 500mg)
    Melatonin - 250mcg-1mg
    Green Tea Extract - 750mg EGCG total daily (see notes below)

    -Dose fish oil & vitamin C as far away from workout as possible
    -Dose B-Complex with each meal
    -Dose citicoline in AM/PM
    -Dose magnesium at night
    -Dose 250mg EGCG before each meal to reach 750mg daily
    GREAT STUFF!!

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    Granted, this is presented by people who really want to sell you melatonin, but it does seem to have a broad array of benefits. In the classic life extension-ista mindset..you have lots of melatonin when you are young, it declines greatly as you age, then your hair falls out and you prowl fitness boards trying to regain your former glory..er, oh wait, that's just internal monologue...


    LE Magazine, October 1996 - Update: New Findings On Melatonin

    A newer article...Beyond Sleep: 7 Ways Melatonin Attacks Aging Factors - Life Extension
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    Hm seeing how there's many veterans of the sport and industry here...why not help domore update the first post, and add a:

    "Anti-Aging" natty stack or more like a "Older and wiser" stack for the declines that come for 35+ folk, it could help a lot of them that are barely arriving to the forum-prowling era of their lives.
    >SNS-Glycophase<
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Hm seeing how there's many veterans of the sport and industry here...why not help domore update the first post, and add a:

    "Anti-Aging" natty stack or more like a "Older and wiser" stack for the declines that come for 35+ folk, it could help a lot of them that are barely arriving to the forum-prowling era of their lives.
    Good idea, cel. I appreciate it.
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    Nice info. Should MCC be taken only on workout days? Or just mono?
    "no failure is final, nor is any success"
    Follow my 2014 training and supps!
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/240285-chedapaloozas-2014-training.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by chedapalooza View Post
    Nice info. Should MCC be taken only on workout days? Or just mono?
    Take it daily until you reach saturation, usually a month. After that, just take 3-5g on workout days only.

    Studies suggest that PCr levels remain elevated for some time, even if you aren't taking it at that time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by domore View Post

    Take it daily until you reach saturation, usually a month. After that, just take 3-5g on workout days only.

    Studies suggest that PCr levels remain elevated for some time, even if you aren't taking it at that time.
    Gotcha. Im taking SNS caps.. I've been on exactly a week daily @4 caps instead of 6 per coops rec. I'm thinking this might make it ok to take daily? I train m-f n sometimes on Saturday. So it's basically daily already lol
    "no failure is final, nor is any success"
    Follow my 2014 training and supps!
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/240285-chedapaloozas-2014-training.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by chedapalooza View Post
    Gotcha. Im taking SNS caps.. I've been on exactly a week daily @4 caps instead of 6 per coops rec. I'm thinking this might make it ok to take daily? I train m-f n sometimes on Saturday. So it's basically daily already lol
    At four caps, it will put you at 3 grams per day, which is perfectly fine (I would listen to coop, he is the man in medicine ). Even if you are working out everyday, you could still take a day off here and there without PCr levels dropping (once you have reached saturation). It is up to you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Hm seeing how there's many veterans of the sport and industry here...why not help domore update the first post, and add a:

    "Anti-Aging" natty stack or more like a "Older and wiser" stack for the declines that come for 35+ folk, it could help a lot of them that are barely arriving to the forum-prowling era of their lives.
    Excellent idea.

    Might consider an "Undermethylation Stack" as well
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    Everybody should watch this video.

    http://www.ted.com/talks/ben_goldacr...prescribe.html
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    What does everyone think of adding methylcobalamin to the Glutiathione stack?

    I figure it would fit nicely being a methyl donor, and participates in the synthesis of SAMe?
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    Quote Originally Posted by domore View Post
    What does everyone think of adding methylcobalamin to the Glutiathione stack?

    I figure it would fit nicely being a methyl donor, and participates in the synthesis of SAMe?
    I like it.

    You might also want to consider:

    Milk Thistle
    Vit C
    Vit E
    Vit B6
    Methionine
    Folic Acid

    If ALA is not being taken as part of the Mitochondrial Optimization Stack, I would add ALA to the Glutathione Stack.
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    A few questions:

    1. What does "glutiathione" mean/refer to?
    2. Na-Rala--what's this good for/help with? How does it differ from R-ALA, aside from the obvious?

    Any answers or links to these would be a great help. Thanks!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beau View Post
    I like it.

    You might also want to consider:

    Milk Thistle
    Vit C
    Vit E
    Vit B6
    Methionine
    Folic Acid

    If ALA is not being taken as part of the Mitochondrial Optimization Stack, I would add ALA to the Glutathione Stack.
    Quote Originally Posted by ricroc View Post
    A few questions:

    1. What does "glutiathione" mean/refer to?
    2. Na-Rala--what's this good for/help with? How does it differ from R-ALA, aside from the obvious?

    Any answers or links to these would be a great help. Thanks!
    Hey guys, I'm studying right now for a big exam coming up. I'll get to these ASAP.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricroc View Post
    A few questions:

    1. What does "glutiathione" mean/refer to?
    2. Na-Rala--what's this good for/help with? How does it differ from R-ALA, aside from the obvious?

    Any answers or links to these would be a great help. Thanks!
    1. Antioxidant preventing damage to important cellular components.

    2. More potent and more bioavailable. Also better at lowering blood glucose.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beau View Post
    I like it.

    You might also want to consider:

    Milk Thistle
    Vit C
    Vit E
    Vit B6
    Methionine
    Folic Acid

    If ALA is not being taken as part of the Mitochondrial Optimization Stack, I would add ALA to the Glutathione Stack.
    A B-Complex should actually be a part of the Glutathione Stack. Many of the cofactors are needed for the conversion of SAMe.

    SAMe is a part of the methionine cycle, in which methionine is converted into SAMe. Then, SAMe will become S−Adenosyl Homocysteine after losing its methyl group. SAH will then be converted to homocysteine. At this point, homocysteine either converts back into methionine or it enters the transsulfuration pathway to convert into cysteine, which can be used in the formation of glutathione. With that said, I don't think extra methionine is warranted.

    C and E are fine. Although, I would be sure to find a tocotrienol/tocopherol product instead of one that utilizes alpha-tocopherol.

    Quote Originally Posted by ricroc View Post
    A few questions:

    1. What does "glutiathione" mean/refer to?
    2. Na-Rala--what's this good for/help with? How does it differ from R-ALA, aside from the obvious?

    Any answers or links to these would be a great help. Thanks!
    Glutathione is the most abundant antioxidant in the body, and it helps recycle antioxidants within the body. It is important to the immune system and the prevention of diseases. Also, it helps speed up exercise recovery by increasing antioxidant activity. With intense exercise, glutathione levels fall, albeit temporarily.

    Here is a quote from Dr. Houser:

    This board is HOPEFULLY full of people who are intensely involved in anaerobic (weight/sprint/etc...) training and I will say +/- aerobic training. Not assumed as the generally sedentary lay-population used in said studies unfortunately.

    The rationale is the same reason I hate when people try and apply suggested data on Vitamin E (especially when solely alpha-tocopherol is used as monotherapy).

    Anyway; one must consider the amount of free radical generated on a daily basis (each time you go to the gym, each time you put something in your mouth - healthy or otherwise, oxidizing fat en route to a svelte physique you hold dear, and so on...EVERYTHING generates free radicals). Vitamin E works in synergy with the endogenous antioxidant glutathione to quench lipid peroxidation. But to do so, glutathione needs selenium which "holds" lipid radicals so that glutathione can get a crack at them. Selenium is also required for vitamin E to function properly.

    NOW - ANYTHING (statin drugs, niacin, etc...) that modifies lipids (cholesterol, et al...) WILL alter glucose metabolism to some degree. Its funny how frequent this is forgotten especially by the authors of silly studies suggesting increased incidence of insulin resistance and/or diabetes development when not using clamp studies, but alas I digress.

    Its not much use, however, taking selenium, if you don't have enough glutathione in the first place. Intense exercise (granted, probably 95% of gym-goers, and possibly even a good percentage who read these boards do not really embark on truly "intense" exercsie can deplete muscle glutathione by 40% and liver glutathione (from which the muscles get their refills, like glycogen) by 80%! So, rightfully so - I probably should have suggested some conditions with the dosing of selenium:

    1. Barring you are truly doing "INTENSE" exercise (defined in anaerobic training as HOW close you lift to your 1RM, not by speed...there is a speed component in transitioning from aerobic to anaerobic in what is generally thought of as cardio - a shift from a jog to a sprint).

    2. Fat oxidation is truly something being incorporated into your physique regimen (both on a microscopic level: if you have not had a NMR analysis by Lipo Science and evaluation of your Lp(a) and Homocysteine scores; you won't really be able to identify this -AND- on a macroscopic level: your outward phenotype).

    3. You are somehow regenerating glutathione lost with exercise (which people don't generally put a lot of credence on). What I may have qualified my statement with is use of the generalized antioxidant stack: Selenomethionine + NAC + SAMe (with B Vitamins as co-factors), but there are very few products that would supply this in what I feel people really need.


    While selenium supply isn't necessarily a bad one with most people's diets - let's take bodybuilder modifications: low-carb, cyclical macro, hyper- and hypo-caloric, etc... BUT also consider that selenium is NOT as well-defined in soil and farmer's don't turn profit enough to give a damn on replenishment.

    But, I do appreciate you keeping me honest here. I more than likely should have said that #10 was collectively: Selenomethionine + NAC + SAMe (or TMG I suppose as "poor man's SAMe") + B vitamins (but Bs were already coming in at #1 for so many different co-factor reasons) and barring exercise intensity was up to par (recall that you will harbor some level of insulin resistance - even non-diabetic with as littel as > 48 hours of inactivity; the studies illustrated are not ideal to apply to most I would hope to campaign for on this board.
    Quote Originally Posted by kbayne View Post
    1. Antioxidant preventing damage to important cellular components.

    2. More potent and more bioavailable. Also better at lowering blood glucose.
    Thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by domore View Post
    Thanks.
    No problem. I was walking home and thought it chime in a bit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by domore View Post
    A B-Complex should actually be a part of the Glutathione Stack. Many of the cofactors are needed for the conversion of SAMe.

    SAMe is a part of the methionine cycle, in which methionine is converted into SAMe. Then, SAMe will become S−Adenosyl Homocysteine after losing its methyl group. SAH will then be converted to homocysteine. At this point, homocysteine either converts back into methionine or it enters the transsulfuration pathway to convert into cysteine, which can be used in the formation of glutathione. With that said, I don't think extra methionine is warranted.

    C and E are fine. Although, I would be sure to find a tocotrienol/tocopherol product instead of one that utilizes alpha-tocopherol.
    Thank you.

    I will be using Jarrow B-Right, NAC, Selenium, TMG, ALA, Milk Thistle and Vit E (tocotrienol/tocopherol).

    With a family of heart disease, I am also using Vit C/Lysine/Proline; using the Linus Pauling ratios modified for 500 mg Vit C every 4 hours, as well as using Carsosine, Vit K1, Vit K2, Benfothiamine.

    This is all good stuff. Thank you.
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    Thanks kbayne and domore.
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    Edited original post; Added some reference threads
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    Is it safe to assume that these stacks are to be run alongside the ACES vitamin scheme? The stack I've just started crosses between the stacks you have recommended
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForceOneSeven View Post
    Is it safe to assume that these stacks are to be run alongside the ACES vitamin scheme? The stack I've just started crosses between the stacks you have recommended
    The stacks mentioned aren't exclusive to the compounds I listed. The stacks are based off of studied compounds and their respective doses to elicit a response. With that said, you include or exclude whatever you wish.

    If you are going to follow ACES, be sure to use the appropriate forms of the vitamins (e.g., mixed carotenoids, mixed tocopherol/tocotrienols, and activated selenium).
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    Awesome...As of now i'm running..

    • 10,000 IU Natural Beta Carotene (Solaray)
    • Jarrows FamilE( Both Tocopherols and Tocotrienols)
    • 100mcg Selenium (yeast free form "L-selenomethionine")
    • 2.5-3 grams Vit. C (ascorbic acid w/ Bioflavonoids)
    • 3 servings Jarrows B-right
    • 3-5 grams B12 (Methylcoblamin)
    • 5 grams Vitamin D
    • 3-3.5 grams Beta Alanine
    • 2 grams Tyrosine
    • 300 mg Na-R-ALA, ginger root, Cinnamon Bark...15 minutes later pop 2grams ALCAR...15 minutes later Heavy Carb meal (150-200grams). I do this twice daily before my heaviest carb meals.
    • Multi Mineral supplement before bed
    • 10 grams Glycine before bed


    Any thoughts/Suggestions? Thanks for quick response Domore
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    As well as 5g Creatine Mono. and 5-8 grams Cit. Mallate preworkout (I workout 4 days a week)
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForceOneSeven View Post
    Awesome...As of now i'm running..

    • 10,000 IU Natural Beta Carotene (Solaray)
    • Jarrows FamilE( Both Tocopherols and Tocotrienols)
    • 100mcg Selenium (yeast free form "L-selenomethionine")
    • 2.5-3 grams Vit. C (ascorbic acid w/ Bioflavonoids)
    • 3 servings Jarrows B-right
    • 3-5 grams B12 (Methylcoblamin)
    • 5 grams Vitamin D
    • 3-3.5 grams Beta Alanine
    • 2 grams Tyrosine
    • 300 mg Na-R-ALA, ginger root, Cinnamon Bark...15 minutes later pop 2grams ALCAR...15 minutes later Heavy Carb meal (150-200grams). I do this twice daily before my heaviest carb meals.
    • Multi Mineral supplement before bed
    • 10 grams Glycine before bed


    Any thoughts/Suggestions? Thanks for quick response Domore
    Quote Originally Posted by ForceOneSeven View Post
    As well as 5g Creatine Mono. and 5-8 grams Cit. Mallate preworkout (I workout 4 days a week)
    Some notes:

    -Since you are following ACES, make sure you follow 5 on, 2 off for A, E, S, and D.
    -Take A, E, and D with meals since they are fat soluble.
    -You can dose B and C everyday, but by following the typical Western diet you will reach adequate (and mostly likely excess) levels of B vitamins.
    -Drop your dose of vitamin C to 500mg. Plasma saturation is reached at 500mg, and at higher doses it can become pro-oxidant.
    -I'm guessing you mean 5,000 IU of vitamin D.
    -Watch your selenium intake. You are on the right track by taking only 100mcg, but after your diet and other supplements (multi-mineral), it may add up quickly.
    -You're fine with the creatine, citrulline malate, tyrosine, and beta alanine doses. After about a month, keep your creatine dose to around 3-5g and only dose it on your workout days. PCr stores won't decrease overnight, so you are fine dosing it on workout days only.

    For what reason are you doing glycine?
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    Thanks For Response again.

    A,E,S,D I dose 5 days on/ 2 days off as you already suggested

    C,B complex, and B12 are 7 days a week. And I already dose C at 500 mg per sitting w/meal due to plasma saturation. The 2-3g is a refrence to my daily totals. Ill adjust my B complex intake to suit my diet.

    D. Yes 5,000 IU, I apologize

    My multi mineral sup. only has trace amounts of Selenium (4mcg). I am very careful in regards to dosing the mineral. Thus I only supplement with 100mcg compared to must suggestions of 200mcg.

    Creatine only on workout days after a month...got it.

    I dose pure glycine for recovery benefits. Studies I've read suggest it aids in cartilage repair etc. I notice a difference especially in my knees when supplementing with it. What's your opinion on the amino acid?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForceOneSeven View Post
    • 300 mg Na-R-ALA, ginger root, Cinnamon Bark...15 minutes later pop 2grams ALCAR...15 minutes later Heavy Carb meal (150-200grams). I do this twice daily before my heaviest carb meals.



    Also thinking about adding N-A-C to my supplement regimen pre- ALCAR for its antioxidant benefits as well as glutathione production.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForceOneSeven View Post
    Thanks For Response again.

    A,E,S,D I dose 5 days on/ 2 days off as you already suggested

    C,B complex, and B12 are 7 days a week. And I already dose C at 500 mg per sitting w/meal due to plasma saturation. The 2-3g is a refrence to my daily totals. Ill adjust my B complex intake to suit my diet.

    D. Yes 5,000 IU, I apologize

    My multi mineral sup. only has trace amounts of Selenium (4mcg). I am very careful in regards to dosing the mineral. Thus I only supplement with 100mcg compared to must suggestions of 200mcg.

    Creatine only on workout days after a month...got it.

    I dose pure glycine for recovery benefits. Studies I've read suggest it aids in cartilage repair etc. I notice a difference especially in my knees when supplementing with it. What's your opinion on the amino acid?
    If you are looking for pure recovery benefits, dose 3g of LCLT (l-carnitine l-tartrate) preworkout.

    If you want some joint help, look into cissus (dose 2-3g split up, away from your workout)
    EvoMuse
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    I just recently purchased Glycine, and plan on taking 3 Gr about 30 minutes prior to bed, along w/ Melatonin. So, I, too, have heard reovery and sleep benefits from Glycine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beau View Post
    I just recently purchased Glycine, and plan on taking 3 Gr about 30 minutes prior to bed, along w/ Melatonin. So, I, too, have heard reovery and sleep benefits from Glycine.
    Yes, I have noticed the sleep benefits without a doubt.
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    Thx
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    Quote Originally Posted by domore View Post
    If you are looking for pure recovery benefits, dose 3g of LCLT (l-carnitine l-tartrate) preworkout. If you want some joint help, look into cissus (dose 2-3g split up, away from your workout)
    Cissus has something I have been considering for sometime. Ill keep it in my mind depending on how I feel. LCLT is also something I have been considering adding. Do you dose LCLT w/ PLCAR pre-workout? Or just LCLT by itself.?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beau View Post
    Thx

    What else are you looking to stack alongside glycine?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForceOneSeven View Post
    Cissus has something I have been considering for sometime. Ill keep it in my mind depending on how I feel. LCLT is also something I have been considering adding. Do you dose LCLT w/ PLCAR pre-workout? Or just LCLT by itself.?
    Here is a quote from Dr. Houser regarding carnitines:

    I do think that the total carnitine concentration is pertinent and oftentimes not addressed accordingly because of various supplement study directives. It is not to suggest certain carnitine salts would hold pertinence in different settings (in other words, that PLC couldn't be better suited for AR upregulation; just that they don't have the vested-interest studies that are done with LCLT). But, in the sense of evidence-based, a mixture of salts is what I recommend until research does better answer this question.

    Now, the problem (for anyone in manufacturing) with PLC is that it frankly is a sticky nightmare in manufacturing of quality PLC source, so - like the COP scenario - finding a quality source may be a true issue. I did mention a supplement on the horizon that manages to do what quadracarn may not - but the snag with its release was PLC, and unfortunately...LCF had to be used to replace production issues and I assure you that projects I am involved in are better-sourced that things you may find on the net elsewhere...period, so the issue is the ingredient unfortunately.

    But, yes, I do agree that carnitine salts (Possibly would agree with ALCAR > LCLT > PLC; don't care...probably comes down to total carnitine shuttling efforts anyway...so if you were going to go with one alone, I think even 6 grams of ALCAR would be the primary thought and so on if you could afford it, even more so with wasted prop blended crap that people invest in or woefully fictitious sh*t that plagues supplement site storefronts) should be considered a staple in every serious lifter and life extension enthusiast period (and yes, Na-R-ALA as a coupling effort with ALCAR would be ideal for those well-versed in the benefits).
    With that said (with respect to carnitines), you could have a dosing pattern like this (for whichever salt you choose):

    ALCAR - 2g in AM or preworkout
    PLCAR - 2g in AM or preworkout
    LCLT - 2g preworkout
    Fumarate - 2g preworkout
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    At night, it has recently been Mucuna, GABA, Melatonin, B12, and I'll be adding glycine.

    Duriung the day, I take a whole host of things - some of which were discussed earlier in the thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by domore View Post
    Here is a quote from Dr. Houser regarding carnitines:



    With that said (with respect to carnitines), you could have a dosing pattern like this (for whichever salt you choose):

    ALCAR - 2g in AM or preworkout
    PLCAR - 2g in AM or preworkout
    LCLT - 2g preworkout
    Fumarate - 2g preworkout

    Any issues with absorbtion/uptake with LCLT/PLCAR when taking simultaneously? I know there are issues when ALCAR is combined with either but havent read anything about LCLT and PLCAR together. I was thinking 2 grams ALCAR in the morning with my NA-R-ALA dosage and then 2g PLCAR and 2g LCLT pre-workout (4 days a week)
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForceOneSeven View Post
    Any issues with absorbtion/uptake with LCLT/PLCAR when taking simultaneously? I know there are issues when ALCAR is combined with either but havent read anything about LCLT and PLCAR together. I was thinking 2 grams ALCAR in the morning with my NA-R-ALA dosage and then 2g PLCAR and 2g LCLT pre-workout (4 days a week)
    You can dose your ALCAR with Na-R-Ala, and dose it away from your PLCAR. LCLT and PLCAR are fine to dose together.
    EvoMuse
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    For nutrient shuttling effects of agmatine - 500mg 20 mins prior to carb meal correct? Or with the meal?
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    Quote Originally Posted by chedapalooza View Post
    For nutrient shuttling effects of agmatine - 500mg 20 mins prior to carb meal correct? Or with the meal?
    Ya, 500-750mg pre carb meal.
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