Stack Reference Thread

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  1. Post


    Quote Originally Posted by domore View Post
    Go for Jarrow B-Right. It is cheaper than most, but still hits most of the co-factors. Swanson also has a great one for around $18, though.
    I have been using B-Right and Swanson's Activated B-complex looks very good.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by koi1214 View Post
    I have been using B-Right and Swanson's Activated B-complex looks very good.
    B-Right is cost effective and uses mainly co-factors. For what it is, you don't need to spend $18 on a b-complex.
    EvoMuse
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  3. Re: Stack Reference Thread


    Quote Originally Posted by domore View Post
    Do you have the studies on hand? I'm curious to what doses were used in those studies.
    It took me forever to track them down but they were found via a google search term "melatonin testosterone".

    I did pay attention to dosages but there was an interesting study that showed men with hypogonadism show an increase in melatonin during nocturnal emission and men who were hyper have lower levels of melatonin. What I took away from that was that its not the dose but melatonin itself effects hpta.

    There are several studies I can track down for you if need be when I get back to AZ. I'm visiting family now.

    - Valdez
    The Physique Biochemist
    Biochemistry Major
    Your Physique AND Credentials Should Back Up Your Position

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Valdez View Post

    It took me forever to track them down but they were found via a google search term "melatonin testosterone".

    I did pay attention to dosages but there was an interesting study that showed men with hypogonadism show an increase in melatonin during nocturnal emission and men who were hyper have lower levels of melatonin. What I took away from that was that its not the dose but melatonin itself effects hpta.

    There are several studies I can track down for you if need be when I get back to AZ. I'm visiting family now.

    - Valdez
    Sounds good. Enjoy your time with the family. I'm out and about too.
    EvoMuse

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Valdez View Post
    I remember reading about melatonin in this thread; be careful taking melatonin, everything I've read suggests it negatively effects testosterone.

    - Valdez

    There is actually no relevant data to this end (studies use injections/mega-doses). The pineal gland does have a suppressive effect on T release, but unless you have a complete absence of a circadian rhythm, <1 mg oral melatonin nightly won't have any significant effect. The suppressive effect occurs endogenously every night when you get tired and is partially responsible for the natural peaks and valleys in testosterone levels throughout the day. Nothing to concern yourself about; just BBers being fearmongers when it comes to good ole testosterone!
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  6. Re: Stack Reference Thread


    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    There is actually no relevant data to this end (studies use injections/mega-doses). The pineal gland does have a suppressive effect on T release, but unless you have a complete absence of a circadian rhythm, &lt;1 mg oral melatonin nightly won't have any significant effect. The suppressive effect occurs endogenously every night when you get tired and is partially responsible for the natural peaks and valleys in testosterone levels throughout the day. Nothing to concern yourself about; just BBers being fearmongers when it comes to good ole testosterone!
    There was no exogenous melatonin given in this study (I'm pretty sure its the right one I just skimmed due to time constraints). The melatonin was strictly off of endogenous levels. It looks as if the hormone melatonin itself (not dose dependent or exogenous) has a negative feedback on T.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9404445

    - Valdez
    The Physique Biochemist
    Biochemistry Major
    Your Physique AND Credentials Should Back Up Your Position
  7. Re: Stack Reference Thread


    Hyper T = low endogenous melatonin secretion

    Hypo = High melatonin secretion

    ...in that study

    - Valdez
    The Physique Biochemist
    Biochemistry Major
    Your Physique AND Credentials Should Back Up Your Position

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Valdez View Post
    There was no exogenous melatonin given in this study (I'm pretty sure its the right one I just skimmed due to time constraints). The melatonin was strictly off of endogenous levels. It looks as if the hormone melatonin itself (not dose dependent or exogenous) has a negative feedback on T.

    Abnormal melatonin secretion in hypogo... [Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1997] - PubMed - NCBI

    - Valdez
    This is precisely what I'm saying! Unless you are a robot, your testosterone will dip every night when you get tired anyway. Microdoses of exogenous melatonin won't significantly change this effect, as the pineal gland will feedback on the HPTA regardless.

    Edit: And in reading that study, it appears the suppression is at the level of the hypothalamus. This is completely normal and shouldn't be feared. Your T will rise and fall an innumerable amount of times in a day. It's a complex system and seeking to control each component will drive you insane for no significant net gain.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Well done, domore, seriously. I'd bump the LCLT up to 3 grams since most (but not all!) studies use 2g L-carnitine as LCLT, which amounts to ~3g actual LCLT.

    For the health stack, I'd add 250mcg-1mg melatonin. It is actually one of the most researched health supplements out there (if not the most researched). I also believe that, while not a supplement, 81mg aspirin/day is great for both health and even body composition (fat loss via AMPK stimulation).
    Where would I find Melatonin dosed at less than 1mg? Most supplements I have found are around 3mg or more.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by domore

    [B
    Ergogen Stack:[/B]
    Creatine - 2.5-5g (Preferred forms: Orotate/MCC/Nitrate/Monohydrate)
    Beta Alanine - 3.2g
    LCLT - 3g
    Citrulline Malate - 3-9g
    Caffeine - Dosage dependent on user
    Nitrates - As part of a designer product (e.g. Creatine Nitrate/Powershock/etc.)

    -Dose creatine on workout days only
    -Dose beta alanine any time of the day
    -Dose LCLT preworkout
    -Dose citrulline malate preworkout
    -Dose nitrates anytime before workout due to long half-life
    1. LCLT - only does on workout days? If no, when would be a good time to take on non-w/o days?
    2. Citrulline Malate - Between 3-9, what's the optimal dosage, or does one truly have to dial it in themselves?

    I keep coming back to this thread for all the juicy knowledge being given!
  11. Re: Stack Reference Thread


    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    This is precisely what I'm saying! Unless you are a robot, your testosterone will dip every night when you get tired anyway. Microdoses of exogenous melatonin won't significantly change this effect, as the pineal gland will feedback on the HPTA regardless.

    Edit: And in reading that study, it appears the suppression is at the level of the hypothalamus. This is completely normal and shouldn't be feared. Your T will rise and fall an innumerable amount of times in a day. It's a complex system and seeking to control each component will drive you insane for no significant net gain.
    Right, it disrupts hpta, so supplementing with exogenous melatonin could in theory reduce testosterone via the same mechanisms experienced during night time secretion

    - Valdez
    The Physique Biochemist
    Biochemistry Major
    Your Physique AND Credentials Should Back Up Your Position

  12. Quote Originally Posted by Valdez View Post
    Right, it disrupts hpta, so supplementing with exogenous melatonin could in theory reduce testosterone via the same mechanisms experienced during night time secretion

    - Valdez
    Hm...What I got from the article and Cy's argument was that testosterone is bound to decline, even in healthy individuals, at night, albeit just a bit...I don't think/see how would exogenous 1mg amounts of Melatonin could even remotely reduce Testosterone as a side effect...(Not taking a shot honestly, just wanna see how come you think this and if CyForce has anything to say about it).
    >SNS-Glycophase<
    Serious Nutrition Solutions Rep

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Valdez View Post
    Right, it disrupts hpta, so supplementing with exogenous melatonin could in theory reduce testosterone via the same mechanisms experienced during night time secretion

    - Valdez
    You're missing the point. Transient hormonal fluxes are meaningless. By this logic, I could also mention how melatonin causes a several hundred-fold % increase in growth hormone. But it doesn't matter, because it's transient. Also, melatonin is best supplemented when you are having endogenous release anyway (aka before bed), so again, the data is irrelevant in this regard.

    To put this into perspective, masturbation or sex will cause a transient drop in testosterone after orgasm. Are you going to forego those, or worry about their timing?

    Only in the world of BBers do the imperceptible minutia matter
  14. Talking


    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Hm...What I got from the article and Cy's argument was that testosterone is bound to decline, even in healthy individuals, at night, albeit just a bit...I don't think/see how would exogenous 1mg amounts of Melatonin could even remotely reduce Testosterone as a side effect...(Not taking a shot honestly, just wanna see how come you think this and if CyForce has anything to say about it).
    This is just discussion, I don't think anyone thinks you're taking a shot ya clown

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Where would I find Melatonin dosed at less than 1mg? Most supplements I have found are around 3mg or more.
    I don't think NP has any, but just google 500mcg melatonin
  16. Re: Stack Reference Thread


    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    You're missing the point. Transient hormonal fluxes are meaningless. By this logic, I could also mention how melatonin causes a several hundred-fold % increase in growth hormone. But it doesn't matter, because it's transient. Also, melatonin is best supplemented when you are having endogenous release anyway (aka before bed), so again, the data is irrelevant in this regard.

    To put this into perspective, masturbation or sex will cause a transient drop in testosterone after orgasm. Are you going to forego those, or worry about their timing?

    Only in the world of BBers do the imperceptible minutia matter
    Yep, I am, I'm going to forego them all over the place

    Abstinence is the only way to go gentleman.

    My work here is done...

    - Valdez
    The Physique Biochemist
    Biochemistry Major
    Your Physique AND Credentials Should Back Up Your Position
  17. Re: Stack Reference Thread


    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    This is just discussion, I don't think anyone thinks you're taking a shot ya clown
    Why is he always taking shots bro?

    - Valdez
    The Physique Biochemist
    Biochemistry Major
    Your Physique AND Credentials Should Back Up Your Position
  18. Re: Stack Reference Thread




    - Valdez
    The Physique Biochemist
    Biochemistry Major
    Your Physique AND Credentials Should Back Up Your Position

  19. Quote Originally Posted by Valdez View Post
    Yep, I am, I'm going to forego them all over the place

    Abstinence is the only way to go gentleman.

    My work here is done...

    - Valdez
    If a nekked Mila Kunis entered your quarters, would you abstain???

  20. Quote Originally Posted by Valdez View Post
    Why is he always taking shots bro?

    - Valdez
    Cuz da alcohol lowers T!!!!!!!

  21. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post

    Cuz da alcohol lowers T!!!!!!!
    Haha but don't forgot to take your 2g Alcar pre-drinking
    EvoMuse

  22. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Cuz da alcohol lowers T!!!!!!!
    And proper Eye Sight according to the charity I did last friday night !
    >SNS-Glycophase<
    Serious Nutrition Solutions Rep

  23. Quote Originally Posted by domore View Post
    Haha but don't forgot to take your 2g Alcar pre-drinking
    This man has been paying close attention indeed, A for effort good kind sir.
    >SNS-Glycophase<
    Serious Nutrition Solutions Rep

  24. Quote Originally Posted by ricroc View Post

    1. LCLT - only does on workout days? If no, when would be a good time to take on non-w/o days?
    2. Citrulline Malate - Between 3-9, what's the optimal dosage, or does one truly have to dial it in themselves?

    I keep coming back to this thread for all the juicy knowledge being given!
    Take both only on workout days. Most likely you are working out four days a week anyway.

    I like citrulline malate on the higher end- 8-9 grams. There has been a couple studies suggesting anaerobic benefits. However, try a variety of doses and see how you respond.
    EvoMuse

  25. Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post

    And proper Eye Sight according to the charity I did last friday night !
    Hahah, oh the wonders of teh booze
    EvoMuse
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