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DS Craze Lawsuit and FDA Action

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    Quote Originally Posted by jwa254 View Post
    or Molly, but yeah. Are people believing MDMA is in Craze? or is it just the amphetamine aspect that people believe Craze contains? Sorry, I haven't really been keeping up. I could see the belief for an amphetamine being in Craze as Adderall is a combo of dextroamphetamine/amphetamine and that provides some insane focus.
    I don't think anyone us suggesting that, but Pat I believe said something about PEAs showing up in mass spec. PEA I believe causes euphoria feeling in MDMA and other drugs. Is it possible they threw some kind if mild MAO Inhibitor in there so PEA could really cross BBB and be a little fun?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 996ttelise View Post
    PEA I believe causes euphoria feeling in MDMA and other drugs.
    I wouldn't say causes is the right word, but I get what you mean. The structure of PEA is very similar to Dopamine and (nor)Epinephrine:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substituted_Phenethylamine
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    Quote Originally Posted by smt1 View Post
    I wouldn't say causes is the right word, but I get what you mean. The structure of PEA is very similar to Dopamine and (nor)Epinephrine:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substituted_Phenethylamine
    Haha, yeah I was thinking cause was a bad choice of words when I typed. Stuck with it though as a result og being lazy and mind not working well. PEA is partially responsible for euphoric feeling and I believe acts like amphetamines in realeasing dopamine an norapinephrine. Anyway, are there any mild MAOB inhibitors that could be thrown in to circumvent first pass metabolism. What about something like piperine. Anything in Craze that could permit higher concentrations off PEA to cross BBB. I have no idea, but am curious since the effect people describe could fit a PEA profile.
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    I've found that taking two caps of Glycobol just before Craze intensifies the effects (probably due to the na-r-ala).

    What about taking Hordenine with Craze; it acts as a mild MAO inhibitor I believe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 996ttelise View Post
    I don't think anyone us suggesting that, but Pat I believe said something about PEAs showing up in mass spec. PEA I believe causes euphoria feeling in MDMA and other drugs. Is it possible they threw some kind if mild MAO Inhibitor in there so PEA could really cross BBB and be a little fun?
    the euphoria from MDMA is thought to be mediated through serotonin and dopamine. other speed type drugs manifest their pleasure through dopamine and norepinephrine primarily

    PEA is an endogenous neurortransmitter but its not something that has ever been suggested to play a role in the psychotropic effects of drugs of abuse

    there have been PEA products sold with MAO inhibitors and the feeling you get from that are very transient and not very pleasant IMO. It does not jibe with the reported effects of Craze
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    Quote Originally Posted by 996ttelise View Post
    PEA is partially responsible for euphoric feeling and I believe acts like amphetamines in realeasing dopamine an norapinephrine. .

    you think its partly responsible for the euphoric feeling from other drugs? where did you read that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjo View Post
    I've found that taking two caps of Glycobol just before Craze intensifies the effects (probably due to the na-r-ala).

    .

    what mechanism do you propose is responsible for that? seems odd
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    the answer to that question is so obvious i cant imagine why it alludes you

    the answer is - to sell more raw material and make more money!!!

    that is why the chinese have been spiking herbs with erectile drug analogs for years. Because US companies think the herbs work and they buy a crapload and the raw material supplier gets rich

    No i get it, seems odd that the raw material don't get checked before going into
    such big production, and other things like how the manufacturers continue to stay in business
    once they get busted doing something like this? But really my knowledge in this field is zero,
    I get the point, there are several way to do so, make profit and get away with it..

    As for the euphoric effect of craze, that's weird I've *never* experienced euphoric feeling
    with craze, after a pretty long period of use, if I had to summarize the main effect
    (and why I get such good workouts with it) is: I just can't be distracted from my session.
    I actually have to set up a clock when working out because I lose track of time, but no euphoric feeling whatsoever.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AutoKal47
    As for the euphoric effect of craze, that's weird I've *never* experienced euphoric feeling
    with craze, after a pretty long period of use, if I had to summarize the main effect
    (and why I get such good workouts with it) is: I just can't be distracted from my session.
    I actually have to set up a clock when working out because I lose track of time, but no euphoric feeling whatsoever.
    I've gone through a few tubs of it and not once have I experienced any "euphoria" either. All I get from it is an increased focus on my workouts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AutoKal47 View Post
    No i get it, seems odd that the raw material don't get checked before going into
    such big production, and other things like how the manufacturers continue to stay in business
    once they get busted doing something like this? But really my knowledge in this field is zero,
    I get the point, there are several way to do so, make profit and get away with it..

    As for the euphoric effect of craze, that's weird I've *never* experienced euphoric feeling
    with craze, after a pretty long period of use, if I had to summarize the main effect
    (and why I get such good workouts with it) is: I just can't be distracted from my session.
    I actually have to set up a clock when working out because I lose track of time, but no euphoric feeling whatsoever.
    This could be your Jesus like genetics coming into play LOL...
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    I'd love to find out the name of the competing company, who took it upon themselves to test this product, because it's obviously very successful (I love it and so do many others). Whenever company A ranks low as it relates to innovation, they opt to test other products. How about taking that time and dedicating it to research and development, and improving your own line? I'd never spend another dime on any of their products, and I'd recommend the same to my friends as well. Competing companies don't test competitor products in the name of safety, they test them to thin the herd and further their own brand.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    I knew this would happen from the start. Saw this coming months ago!
    Why? Because it didn't work for you? You hate a lot of supps, if that's the case and you were the standard (no offense), we'd be left with ginko biloba tablets. :/
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    Why? Because it didn't work for you? You hate a lot of supps, if that's the case and you were the standard (no offense), we'd be left with ginko biloba tablets. :/
    Yeah there are a lot of supplements I don't like but there are a lot I do enjoy also. I just meant I saw it coming because of the all the reported strange/out of the ordinary feelings feelings people had on it. It has happened countless times before with other supplements and after a while of watching things like this you start to recognize the patterns.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    Yeah there are a lot of supplements I don't like but there are a lot I do enjoy also. I just meant I saw it coming because of the all the reported strange/out of the ordinary feelings feelings people had on it. It has happened countless times before with other supplements and after a while of watching things like this you start to recognize the patterns.
    Those reports were in the minority, and how about the novel approach of..."if something doesn't work for you DON'T BUY IT!" No need for knee jerk reactions, like stating something must be illegal, simply because you didn't enjoy it. All that does is draw unwarranted attention to something you don't like, which eventually results in limiting choices for others.
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    Those reports were in the minority, and how about the novel approach of..."if something doesn't work for you DON'T BUY IT!" No need for knee jerk reactions, like stating something must be illegal, simply because you didn't enjoy it. All that does is draw unwarranted attention to something you don't like, which eventually results in limiting choices for others.
    I never said anything about it being illegal. I only stated my opinion on the product after trying a sample. Love all of DS other products. Triazole is one of my favorite Supplements. Best in its category.
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    What is the latest on this? I simply love this stuff and stocked up just in case. The focus for working out and for work is incredible!
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    I never said anything about it being illegal. I only stated my opinion on the product after trying a sample. Love all of DS other products. Triazole is one of my favorite Supplements. Best in its category.
    It was meant as a general statement. I read a lot of comments being thrown around, that "alluded" to the fact, that something must be "different" about Craze based on how it makes you feel. Craze is a HOMERUN type product. I can see why some companies want it taken off the market. I'd just love to find out which company/companies are behind this.
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    Love hearing that I am not the only one who has used it to be more productive outside of just training. I tend to do things opposite of you to make sure I get my training complete knowing Im going to still have a ton of energy to do my "chores".

    Quote Originally Posted by Mission1 View Post
    Did one scoop of craze at 1 o'clock today. Cut my grass, clean my shed and just got done training my back. I love this stuff. I could really care less about the pump.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    All the other products they have are great. Craze, I don't like though. I'd rather not feel like I'm on drugs when working out. To each his own though....
    :/ Note what I wrote above...drugs? C'mon man.
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    :/ Note what I wrote above...drugs? C'mon man.
    Yeah I felt like that, but it doesn't mean there is anything illegal in the product. That is just how it made me feel.
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    I'd love to find out the name of the competing company, who took it upon themselves to test this product, because it's obviously very successful (I love it and so do many others). Whenever company A ranks low as it relates to innovation, they opt to test other products. How about taking that time and dedicating it to research and development, and improving your own line? I'd never spend another dime on any of their products, and I'd recommend the same to my friends as well. Competing companies don't test competitor products in the name of safety, they test them to thin the herd and further their own brand.

    I'd imagine companies test a ton of competitor's products. Testing =/= screwing the competing company unless, of course, the competing company is doing something illegal. In that case, wouldn't the testing be a positive? The reason another company might test Craze is to see whether they have been out-innovated ("why didn't we discover Dendrobex?") or if something fishy is going on.

    Sometimes testing the other company's products (like finding out amounts in prop blends) can be important research in and of itself
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    Quote Originally Posted by D3Baseball View Post
    I'd imagine companies test a ton of competitor's products. Testing =/= screwing the competing company unless, of course, the competing company is doing something illegal. In that case, wouldn't the testing be a positive? The reason another company might test Craze is to see whether they have been out-innovated ("why didn't we discover Dendrobex?") or if something fishy is going on.

    Sometimes testing the other company's products (like finding out amounts in prop blends) can be important research in and of itself
    Or more likely, because company A's competing product sucks the big Lebowski and has low sales, so they want to thin the herd by getting rid of the elephant in the room, in this case Craze. But again, this will backfire, if and when we find just who is behind this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AutoKal47 View Post
    No i get it, seems odd that the raw material don't get checked before going into
    such big production, and other things like how the manufacturers continue to stay in business
    once they get busted doing something like this? .
    First of all, when someone in the US buys a material from china they are supposed to test the stuff. But the question is "what do you test for"? Lets say its an herbal product that is standardized for content of compound X. You then have the stuff tested to see how much compound X is in there. Perhaps you get it tested for microbial count and heavy metals as well. But thats it. You dont send it away and ask a lab to "test for any of a million things that someone may have spiked the stuff with". This is why it is so easy for a company in the US to get duped

    And your second question regarding raw material manufactures getting busted (i assume you are talking about raw material manufacturers) is a good one. But remember these manufacturers are in china so they rarely get busted. They are outside of the jurisdiction of US law. Occasionally though the US FDA will cooperate with chinese authorities and shut down rogue suppliers in china but that is rare. So essentially these suppliers keep getting away with it
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    I'd love to find out the name of the competing company, who took it upon themselves to test this product, because it's obviously very successful (I love it and so do many others). Whenever company A ranks low as it relates to innovation, they opt to test other products. How about taking that time and dedicating it to research and development, and improving your own line? I'd never spend another dime on any of their products, and I'd recommend the same to my friends as well. Competing companies don't test competitor products in the name of safety, they test them to thin the herd and further their own brand.

    sorry but thats a bunch of BS. I test competitors products all the time and it does not take away from my dedication to R&D and innovation

    I can name you dozens of respectable industries where companies make it a practice to periodically test the products of their competition. It is a normal practice and I would venture to say that a company that does not do this is doing itself a disservice

    After all, this is a competitive industry.
    And competition is good
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    Yeah I felt like that, but it doesn't mean there is anything illegal in the product. That is just how it made me feel.

    isnt that what people want to feel?

    isnt any effect by definition "drug" like?
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    Quote Originally Posted by D3Baseball View Post
    I'd imagine companies test a ton of competitor's products. Testing =/= screwing the competing company unless, of course, the competing company is doing something illegal. In that case, wouldn't the testing be a positive? The reason another company might test Craze is to see whether they have been out-innovated ("why didn't we discover Dendrobex?") or if something fishy is going on.

    Sometimes testing the other company's products (like finding out amounts in prop blends) can be important research in and of itself

    Put yourself in the shoes of a company that strives to do everything right. That company knows there are many other companies out there that are ripping people off and taking business away from them. That company is in a position where just doing the right thing is not enough. They have to enlighten the consumers of the fact that their product is better then the crap they are buying now.

    This is true in ANY industry. It appalls me that people think that testing competitors products is a negative.
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    Or more likely, because company A's competing product sucks the big Lebowski and has low sales, so they want to thin the herd by getting rid of the elephant in the room, in this case Craze. But again, this will backfire, if and when we find just who is behind this.
    I dont follow you. If the product they test is legit then how can testing it hurt anyone?

    I think you are upset about people that make up testing results or report them in highly misleading ways. You arent, or shouldnt be, upset at the concept of testing in general
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    sorry but thats a bunch of BS. I test competitors products all the time and it does not take away from my dedication to R&D and innovation

    I can name you dozens of respectable industries where companies make it a practice to periodically test the products of their competition. It is a normal practice and I would venture to say that a company that does not do this is doing itself a disservice

    After all, this is a competitive industry.
    And competition is good
    Competition is great via innovation, not by limiting consumer choices. If Craze is taking away sales, then there is a very reasonable solution...make something better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    Competition is great via innovation, not by limiting consumer choices. If Craze is taking away sales, then there is a very reasonable solution...make something better.
    I dont really follow you. But I will try

    Do you think its wrong for a company to out another company that is breaking the rules because it limits customer choices?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    I dont really follow you. But I will try

    Do you think its wrong for a company to out another company that is breaking the rules because it limits customer choices?
    Not at all, in fact I agree with you in that regard. But I do take issue with competing companies conjuring up rumors and innuendo, simply to create the illusion that Craze might somehow be "different." Maybe it's different because they do a hell of job with respect to innovation. Nothing has surfaced yet, other than a money grab lawsuit. You yourself tested it and can't conclusively say one way or the other that it contains something illegal. It should be left at that. What inevitably ends up happening is that a narrative gets created and just kind of stays out there, all based on some frivolous lawsuit. I'm just voicing my opinion because I happen to think Craze is in a league of its own.
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    Not at all, in fact I agree with you in that regard. But I do take issue with competing companies conjuring up rumors and innuendo, simply to create the illusion that Craze might somehow be "different." Maybe it's different because they do a hell of job with respect to innovation. Nothing has surfaced yet, other than a money grab lawsuit. You yourself tested it and can't conclusively say one way or the other that it contains something illegal. It should be left at that. What inevitably ends up happening is that a narrative gets created and just kind of stays out there, all based on some frivolous lawsuit. I'm just voicing my opinion because I happen to think Craze is in a league of its own.
    well you are making sense now but your original statement was blasting testing in general. Testing is good, lying about testing is not good
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    sorry but thats a bunch of BS. I test competitors products all the time and it does not take away from my dedication to R&D and innovation

    I can name you dozens of respectable industries where companies make it a practice to periodically test the products of their competition. It is a normal practice and I would venture to say that a company that does not do this is doing itself a disservice

    After all, this is a competitive industry.
    And competition is good
    ^^^ the king of innovation

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    First of all, when someone in the US buys a material from china they are supposed to test the stuff. But the question is "what do you test for"? Lets say its an herbal product that is standardized for content of compound X. You then have the stuff tested to see how much compound X is in there. Perhaps you get it tested for microbial count and heavy metals as well. But thats it. You dont send it away and ask a lab to "test for any of a million things that someone may have spiked the stuff with". This is why it is so easy for a company in the US to get duped

    And your second question regarding raw material manufactures getting busted (i assume you are talking about raw material manufacturers) is a good one. But remember these manufacturers are in china so they rarely get busted. They are outside of the jurisdiction of US law. Occasionally though the US FDA will cooperate with chinese authorities and shut down rogue suppliers in china but that is rare. So essentially these suppliers keep getting away with it

    I figured something like this, thanks for explaining
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    isnt that what people want to feel?

    isnt any effect by definition "drug" like?

    Yes you are correct on that. I should have been more descriptive. What I felt was more of a psychotropic effect, not something you want to feel when your working out.
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    Out of curiosity roughly how long until these things come to fruition/we can hear DS side? How long did the USPlabs suit take?
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    Yes you are correct on that. I should have been more descriptive. What I felt was more of a psychotropic effect, not something you want to feel when your working out.
    i do not like the feeling of adderall type stimulation at all. it harkens back to years ago when i used to abuse those type of drugs. i get very paranoid and sexual and just plain freaky. no thanks. i am fine with caffeine, ephedrine, and geranamine is fine too
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    i do not like the feeling of adderall type stimulation at all. it harkens back to years ago when i used to abuse those type of drugs. i get very paranoid and sexual and just plain freaky. no thanks. i am fine with caffeine, ephedrine, and geranamine is fine too
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    Quote Originally Posted by D3Baseball View Post

    stop it, you are grossing me out
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    i get very paranoid and sexual and just plain freaky.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powercage View Post

    Prepared....lol
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