DS Craze Lawsuit and FDA Action

[starrk]

Vpx sells a ****load of product outside the forums.

I don't doubt it, but the customers they cater to obviously don't possess the glorious analytical minds that these various online bodybuilding forums do.

You won't see your average herpa-derp *** customer purchasing a product and then doing anything more than glancing at the label while the salesman regales them with tales of glorious pumps and limitless vascularity.

lol, didn't realize gee en see was censored here.

He's referencing their Friction preworkout that has a potentially non DSHEA compliant ingredient(isopropyloctopamine ). There is a couple threads on it over at BB.com

And that. Don't ban me bro.

[Patrick Arnold]

What if they are both in there in the same amounts?

then either one can be listed first

[Tmac29]

I don't doubt it, but the customers they cater to obviously don't possess the glorious analytical minds that these various online bodybuilding forums do.

You won't see your average herpa-derp *** customer purchasing a product and then doing anything more than glancing at the label while the salesman regales them with tales of glorious pumps and limitless vascularity.

lol, didn't realize gee en see was censored here.



And that. Don't ban me bro.

Well.

I see the hate is strong.

[KerplunkDS]

Im not 100% positive but i believe they said they are both present in the same amounts.

Correct.

[Angelbolic]

I'll say again as I've said before, there's just no way Driven Sports would put ingredients that were not compliant into a product that would be under such intense scrutiny. It's too much of a game-changer. This isn't some lame VPX pre-workout that will never see the inside of a lab because it doesn't do anything and no one cares.

Interesting you say this, because even if all of the phenethylamines in Craze are correctly labeled, some analytical labs can't even find phenethylamines in dendrobium. (http://www.nutraingredients-usa.com/...A-class-action )

Besides, does anyone really believe they're using an extract?

[starrk]

Interesting you say this, because even if all of the phenethylamines in Craze are correctly labeled, some analytical labs can't even find phenethylamines in dendrobium.

Besides, does anyone really believe they're using an extract?

For my purposes, yes. I believe the labeling is consistent with the product it contains.

If I didn't, I wouldn't buy it.

With regard to whether it's a scientific fact? Well, I'm sure the outcome of the tests that are sure to come will determine that.

In terms of other people believing, well, that's pretty irrelevant to me. Not to say I don't care what others have to say, just that for my purposes, their word is good.

Does that make me naive? Perhaps. But I feel that I'm a good judge of character for the most part and having known Matt and his reps for some time now, I think they are worthy of my trust. I don't hand that out easily, either.

[Patrick Arnold]

Interesting you say this, because even if all of the phenethylamines in Craze are correctly labeled, some analytical labs can't even find phenethylamines in dendrobium. (http://www.nutraingredients-usa.com/...A-class-action )

Besides, does anyone really believe they're using an extract?

i dont really understand the last two paragraphs of that story

[Angelbolic]

i dont really understand the last two paragraphs of that story

I *think* he's trying to say companies put a genuine dendobrium extract in their product so it turns up as dendobrium extract (I assume he looks if certain phytochemicals match up against known phytochemicals in dendobrium), but secretly they spike it with other (PEA?) analogues to elude detection.

Anyway, there was another more in-depth story about dendobrium and phenethylamines, but I can't find it anymore

[Angelbolic]

Ah here it is:

Questions about the chemistry of dendrobium extract

On the label of the Craze product, a number of chemicals are listed as being part of Dendrobex, Driven Sports’ branded dendrobium extract. These include dendrobine, dendroxine, dendromine and three variations of phenylethylamines. It’s these last three that give some industry experts pause.
“Show me the paper that states that the phenylethylamines are there in any amounts (in dendrobium) beyond a hundreth of a percent,”said Anthony Almada, CEO of Genr8 and an expert on adulteration issues. “The obligation is for them to show from an independent lab that all the things in there are actually from the orchid,” Almada said. “I have not seen any literature that describes PEAs (phenylethylamines) occurring in dendrobium. I have done a pretty deep search back to the 1920s.”
James Neal-Kababick, director of Oregon-based Flora Research Laboratories, has been testing dendrobium extracts recently (not the Dendrobex ingredient from Driven Sports).
“When we started looking at markers [to use in the tests], the dendrobine alkaloids are reported, and Lilly actually researched these back in 1935, so they have a long history,” he said.
“But when you look at what’s on the market today, the products are being standardized to B-phenylethylamines,” Neal-Kababick said. He added that when he ran phytoforensic tests on the dendrobium extracts he had in his lab, “we found hits for B-phenylethylamines that appeared to be pharmaceuticals.”
“There are papers on the alkaloid composition of dendrobium and there are quite a few alkaloids that are indentified there. Dendrobine is one of them,” Neal-Kababick said. “I have not been able to find that the phenylethylamines are native to dendrobium."
Regardless of what Almada and Neal-Kababick say they have found in the research and testing other dendrobium extracts, Cahill stands behind his product.
“All of the raw materials used in Craze are laboratory tested for identity as required by GMPs by FDA-accredited labs,” Cahill said. “The dendrobium extract we use is a natural plant extract, not of synthetic origin.”
ODI or NDI?

Leaving aside the precise chemical composition of dendrobium extract, the question remains about whether the ingredient is an ODI, or might fall into the New Dietary Ingredient category, one of the problems with DMAA that FDA cited in its warning letters. As mentioned above, dendrobium does have a history of use in China and is cited in some North American sources. But sales, not citations, are what matter when determining ODI status, according to the FDA.
“Listing in the UNPA combined ODI list and/or the AHPA Herbs of Commerce (second edition) is not actual proof of ODI status from FDA's perspective— just a proposed basis for such from an industry perspective,” said Mark Blumenthal, executive director of the American Botanical Council. “I am not aware of any records showing it was traded as a food or dietary supplement in the US prior to Oct. 15, 1994, but then I have not looked for any; that's the responsibility of the seller/marketer of the putative ODI.”

[tufnutz]

This is all very entertaining.

(1) The banter between DS reps and others is noteworthy given the pendency of the lawsuit-- strange how DS' attorneys haven't advised them to stop posting publically about matters relevant to the lawsuit. I suspect that many of these posts will be used during DS' depositions.

(2) Who's behind this lawsuit and what's the connection between Newport Trial Group (plaintiffs' counsel) and DS' competitors? Kalman Magyar is affililated with plaintiffs' law firm and, according to Mr. Magyar's bio, he "spent four years as Assistant General Counsel for one of the world’s leading nutritional supplement companies in the Toronto, Canada area, managing complex international litigation and regulatory matters, assisting in handling the company’s general commercial issues, and developing litigation preparedness strategies." Anyone ever heard of Magyar before?

Carry on.

[mw1]

Originally Posted by Daycrawler Well, something we can all agree on is that I'm a faggot!

Agreed

Agreed

Agreed ~X20

[Daycrawler]

Originally Posted by Daycrawler Well, something we can all agree on is that I'm a faggot!






Agreed ~X20

#unfriended bros, and by bro, I mean never my bro

[Daycrawler]

This is all very entertaining.

(1) The banter between DS reps and others is noteworthy given the pendency of the lawsuit-- strange how DS' attorneys haven't advised them to stop posting publically about matters relevant to the lawsuit. I suspect that many of these posts will be used during DS' depositions.

(2) Who's behind this lawsuit and what's the connection between Newport Trial Group (plaintiffs' counsel) and DS' competitors? Kalman Magyar is affililated with plaintiffs' law firm and, according to Mr. Magyar's bio, he "spent four years as Assistant General Counsel for one of the world’s leading nutritional supplement companies in the Toronto, Canada area, managing complex international litigation and regulatory matters, assisting in handling the company’s general commercial issues, and developing litigation preparedness strategies." Anyone ever heard of Magyar before?

Carry on.

Nothing that has been posted is truly deposition worthy...

It's all small-time banter...

[baldymcgee]

This is all very entertaining.

(1) The banter between DS reps and others is noteworthy given the pendency of the lawsuit-- strange how DS' attorneys haven't advised them to stop posting publically about matters relevant to the lawsuit. I suspect that many of these posts will be used during DS' depositions.

(2) Who's behind this lawsuit and what's the connection between Newport Trial Group (plaintiffs' counsel) and DS' competitors? Kalman Magyar is affililated with plaintiffs' law firm and, according to Mr. Magyar's bio, he "spent four years as Assistant General Counsel for one of the world’s leading nutritional supplement companies in the Toronto, Canada area, managing complex international litigation and regulatory matters, assisting in handling the company’s general commercial issues, and developing litigation preparedness strategies." Anyone ever heard of Magyar before?

Carry on.

Assistant General Counsel

Iovate Health Sciences


Privately Held; 201-500 employees; Consumer Goods industry
April 2007 – April 2011 (4 years 1 month)

[Patrick Arnold]

Ah here it is:

was unawares of any of this

DS has made themselves a target apparently. They better have their ducks in a row

[D3Baseball]

Assistant General Counsel

Iovate Health Sciences

Privately Held; 201-500 employees; Consumer Goods industry
April 2007 - April 2011 (4 years 1 month)

Iovate is MuscleTech

[Young JD]

They should have put a cool phenylethylamine like 3'4 dimethoxy 5 hydroxy b phenethylamine in their product

[JezPudzian]

Iovate is MuscleTech

This is correct and also responsible for cytogenix and muscle asylum too mind. Anyway i loooove muscletech! i love their adverts especially the ones in M&F where every other page is covered in them! i love the price of their products too, totally worth every penny! can't believe jay cutler and phil heath only used MT supps to get big for the mr.O's, i'll surely be as big as them in noooooo time

[Young JD]

Muscletech speaking **** about another supp company some on should sue them cuase their pixi dust suger with some creatine

[BB12]

some great info in here.. thanks