DS Craze Lawsuit and FDA Action

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    It always makes sense until somebody gets hurt.
    oh come on.. Like craze is the devil now and is gonna wipe out human kind
    Funny tho' how products containing 1,3 are still out but that's ok, and that I know from experience is some nasty sh#t..
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericool007 View Post
    If what your saying relates to craze i cant wait to get mine in the mail. never tried it before but an adderall type focus sounds good to me.
    i have no idea what the situation specifically is with craze, but that is a possible scenario in any such situation
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    I didn't say they do. What's likely taking place is that there is a constituent of Dendrobex that is legally not presented on the label. It was a clever move by DS if that is indeed the case.

    how can something be legally not presented on the label? if you dont disclose it on the label it is illegal. if what you are saying is true and they are standardizing for some consituent but not mentioning that consituent specifically on the label that is illegal. It may be clever risk taking but its still illegal.

    the chances of that being the case imo is less than one percent anyway

    edit: actually it would not be so clever because what you are suggesting would most certainly be patent worthy. so they could disclose on the label while protecting their invention with a patent
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    Quote Originally Posted by AutoKal47 View Post
    oh come on.. Like craze is the devil now and is gonna wipe out human kind
    Funny tho' how products containing 1,3 are still out but that's ok, and that I know from experience is some nasty sh#t..
    1,3 is disclosed on the label

    Once again dont take this as me specifically talking about craze because i dont know the facts but supplement companies get hurt when other companies steal customers by cutting corners. they have every right and duty to pursue competitiors that are doing such things. A recent example happened sith slim extreme by AX. Some folks from a couple of other supp companies came to me perturbed about the product and their suspicions that they were pulling a fast one. I tested the stuff and found something weird. with the help of some psychedelic chemist guy from bluelight.ru forum we figured out what the stuff probably was. i bought a standard and it was a perfect match. AX ended up getting confronted and they pulled the product.

    it seems to me that competitors are checking to see if DS is doing the same thing. there is nothing wrong with that. if false accusations are being made however that is not good. lets wait for the evidence to be disclosed
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    This is ALRI Venom and AX SlimXtreme all over again.

    Fall in love with product - it gets pulled for various reasons.

    I'm thankful for the people out there testing products and making dang sure Im not putting toxic, questionable, OR dangerous garbage in my system. That said, it sucks that the best supps always seesm to be the ones that are tainted or contain a suspect ingredient. Go figure. Can't win. LOL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    This is ALRI Venom and AX SlimXtreme all over again.

    Fall in love with product - it gets pulled for various reasons.

    I'm thankful for the people out there testing products and making dang sure Im not putting toxic, questionable, OR dangerous garbage in my system. That said, it sucks that the best supps always seesm to be the ones that are tainted or contain a suspect ingredient. Go figure. Can't win. LOL

    the temptation to play games with diet/energy products is often just too much for a lot of companies. If you make one that feels like speed you will make a lot of money very fast.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    1,3 is disclosed on the label

    Once again dont take this as me specifically talking about craze because i dont know the facts but supplement companies get hurt when other companies steal customers by cutting corners. they have every right and duty to pursue competitiors that are doing such things. A recent example happened sith slim extreme by AX. Some folks from a couple of other supp companies came to me perturbed about the product and their suspicions that they were pulling a fast one. I tested the stuff and found something weird. with the help of some psychedelic chemist guy from bluelight.ru forum we figured out what the stuff probably was. i bought a standard and it was a perfect match. AX ended up getting confronted and they pulled the product.

    it seems to me that competitors are checking to see if DS is doing the same thing. there is nothing wrong with that. if false accusations are being made however that is not good. lets wait for the evidence to be disclosed
    You said you ran Craze through mass spec so it would seem like you could answer the above question[s]. Yeah, there are some guys in bluelight and a couple of other more focused sites that really know their chemistry. I feel same way. If DS did something under handed, they need to get popped real hard because it jeopardizes a whole lot for them to temporary line their pockets. If not, then hopefully they have savy enough counsel to go after sanctions and costs against the little Newport firm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 996ttelise View Post
    You said you ran Craze through mass spec so it would seem like you could answer the above question[s]. Yeah, there are some guys in bluelight and a couple of other more focused sites that really know their chemistry. I feel same way. If DS did something under handed, they need to get popped real hard because it jeopardizes a whole lot for them to temporary line their pockets. If not, then hopefully they have savy enough counsel to go after sanctions and costs against the little Newport firm.
    i ran it through and saw only a few peaks. two i could identify that were tiny - PEA and caffeine. then a bigger one that seemed to be PEA related and then a real big one that also was PEA related. PEA related can mean a lot of things of course.

    so i am not sure what the two major components in the stuff are. I do know that what I observed was not entirely consistent with a natural extract since there were pretty much no ancillary side products in there. Of course I dunno if all that dendrobex crap even would elute from my column anyway.

    So my testing really is not of much use to this debate

    BTW the bluelight guys really know their psychedelic chemistry because thats what they concentrate on. I OTOH know a lot of steroid chemistry because that is what i have focused on in the past
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    i ran it through and saw only a few peaks. two i could identify that were tiny - PEA and caffeine. then a bigger one that seemed to be PEA related and then a real big one that also was PEA related. PEA related can mean a lot of things of course.

    so i am not sure what the two major components in the stuff are. I do know that what I observed was not entirely consistent with a natural extract since there were pretty much no ancillary side products in there. Of course I dunno if all that dendrobex crap even would elute from my column anyway.

    So my testing really is not of much use to this debate

    BTW the bluelight guys really know their psychedelic chemistry because thats what they concentrate on. I OTOH know a lot of steroid chemistry because that is what i have focused on in the past
    Erowid and legalhighs are two others with some really sharp chemist. A couple if them disappeared over the last couple of years. I think their MDMA labs got busted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    i ran it through and saw only a few peaks. two i could identify that were tiny - PEA and caffeine. then a bigger one that seemed to be PEA related and then a real big one that also was PEA related. PEA related can mean a lot of things of course.

    so i am not sure what the two major components in the stuff are. I do know that what I observed was not entirely consistent with a natural extract since there were pretty much no ancillary side products in there. Of course I dunno if all that dendrobex crap even would elute from my column anyway.

    So my testing really is not of much use to this debate

    BTW the bluelight guys really know their psychedelic chemistry because thats what they concentrate on. I OTOH know a lot of steroid chemistry because that is what i have focused on in the past
    BTW, isn't PEA the chemical compound that is partially responsible for euphoria, the butterfly like feeling, in compounds such as amphetamines, mescaline, and MDMA. I thought oral bioavailability was poor on PEA though unless helped along with something like an MAOI. Does PEA reach BBB if consumed orally? I am real neophyte here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AutoKal47 View Post
    oh come on.. Like craze is the devil now and is gonna wipe out human kind
    Funny tho' how products containing 1,3 are still out but that's ok, and that I know from experience is some nasty sh#t..
    Did I say a word about Craze? I still have some in my room that I use for late night study sessions. The point is that people are too dumb and abusive to not have laws that prevent them from hurting themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    how can something be legally not presented on the label? if you dont disclose it on the label it is illegal. if what you are saying is true and they are standardizing for some consituent but not mentioning that consituent specifically on the label that is illegal. It may be clever risk taking but its still illegal.

    the chances of that being the case imo is less than one percent anyway

    edit: actually it would not be so clever because what you are suggesting would most certainly be patent worthy. so they could disclose on the label while protecting their invention with a patent
    Hmmm, I'm not too familiar with the specific details of labeling a product. Just for my future reference, let's say product X standardizes for Y ingredient. Could they not standardize that ingredient to such a low % that some other constituent plays a bigger role? I'm thinking along the lines of how corosolic acid and ketosterones in banaba and cissus, respectively, are often standardized to lower percentages to bring up other constituents (which are not listed on the label).

    But yes, that logic definitely does not apply in this case, seeing as they patented it. Still, I'm going to wait for the ruling before passing judgment. It just doesn't seem to make much sense given DS' track record, unless I'm missing something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 996ttelise View Post
    BTW, isn't PEA the chemical compound that is partially responsible for euphoria, the butterfly like feeling, in compounds such as amphetamines, mescaline, and MDMA. I thought oral bioavailability was poor on PEA though unless helped along with something like an MAOI. Does PEA reach BBB if consumed orally? I am real neophyte here.
    Yes it does, but it is metabolized far too rapidly to exert any real effect.
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    Coop, it makes sense. Like cissus: it can be extracted to 10% ketosterones; what's the other 90%? We know what it is, but with dendrobex we may not know. I don't see the other 90% declared on cissus products.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    i ran it through and saw only a few peaks. two i could identify that were tiny - PEA and caffeine. then a bigger one that seemed to be PEA related and then a real big one that also was PEA related. PEA related can mean a lot of things of course.

    so i am not sure what the two major components in the stuff are. I do know that what I observed was not entirely consistent with a natural extract since there were pretty much no ancillary side products in there. Of course I dunno if all that dendrobex crap even would elute from my column anyway.

    So my testing really is not of much use to this debate

    BTW the bluelight guys really know their psychedelic chemistry because thats what they concentrate on. I OTOH know a lot of steroid chemistry because that is what i have focused on in the past
    What kind of column and mobile phase were you using, out of curiosity? According to the label, the denbrobium extract contains pretty much all PEA analogs which should all make it through. There were a few oddball ones in there too though... denbrobine? dendroxine? I'm guessing those might not make it through - depending on your pore size.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Did I say a word about Craze? I still have some in my room that I use for late night study sessions. The point is that people are too dumb and abusive to not have laws that prevent them from hurting themselves.
    I agree completely, tho maybe not with the 'dumb and abusive' part. I am great at what I do, but I don't know jack about chemistry. When I buy a sup OTC, I want to be assured that the product is tested and adverse health effects known. Clearly print the known adverse health effects in simple language, along with known harmful drug interactions, and let me make the choice on whether to put it into my body or not.

    It seems obvious to me that the sup companies get real cute when given the chance (1,3 dimeth is squeezed from fresh, plump, organic geraniums!). I agree that we need the gov't to watch over these guys, even if the current application is far from ideal. JMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 996ttelise View Post
    BTW, isn't PEA the chemical compound that is partially responsible for euphoria, the butterfly like feeling, in compounds such as amphetamines, mescaline, and MDMA. I thought oral bioavailability was poor on PEA though unless helped along with something like an MAOI. Does PEA reach BBB if consumed orally? I am real neophyte here.
    PEA is quickly deactivated by monoamine oxidase so it has little central activity. amphetamine is sort of like an altered PEA molecule that has a methyl group in the alpha position to the nitrogen. that methyl groups blocks MAO and allows strong activity
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post



    Hmmm, I'm not too familiar with the specific details of labeling a product. Just for my future reference, let's say product X standardizes for Y ingredient. Could they not standardize that ingredient to such a low % that some other constituent plays a bigger role? I'm thinking along the lines of how corosolic acid and ketosterones in banaba and cissus, respectively, are often standardized to lower percentages to bring up other constituents (which are not listed on the label)..
    well then they are still indirectly "standardizing" for that other constituent, albeit in a much more flimsy and reckless manner (hoping more is in there cuz there is less of the other stuff). That sounds even worse to me
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    Quote Originally Posted by heavyd12 View Post
    Stock up boys and girls.

    A class action lawsuit claims Craze is not natural and contains amphetamine (analog act), despite labeling claims that it is “safe” and can be used by students for studying. I was told amphetamine is a loose term meaning the ingredient is a designer stimulant related to amphetamine and would fall under the stimulant analog act.

    courthousenews.com/2012/03/21/Craze.pdf

    A second lawsuit is being filed in New Jersey on similar grounds this week naming DS, a distributor and several retailers. Additionally WADA is working closely with the FDA office of criminal investigations after several companies submitted their GCMS identification findings to the organization and claimed Craze will further tarnish the industry with what seems poised to become the next designer stimulant nightmare.

    What I have been told from a source close to the New Jersey based lawsuit.

    A. The compounds in Craze are synthetically made and not an extract. No NDI has been filed for these new dietary ingredients making them illegal to sell under DSHEA without submitting NDI notification. They could qualify as dietary ingredients if the substances present are indeed extracts of an herb or botanical, which they are not. They are synthetically made in a laboratory.

    B. The main active is a potent new synthetic designer stimulant possibly related to amphetamine under the analog act.

    C. The designer stimulant has a high probability to be poorly researched, no human testing, and possibly dangerous despite the companies continuous promotion that it is safe, natural, DSHEA, and GRAS. imageshack.us/photo/my-images/856/extractr.jpg

    D. The label depicts a safe natural product yet contains a synthetic design stimulant behind the clever natural extract labeling.

    E. Legal and government action from the FDA will be immanent.

    F. Stuff will hit the fan very soon when the toxicologists and full laboratory findings are released by the companies that have organized the testing.

    I knew this would happen from the start. Saw this coming months ago!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    It just doesn't seem to make much sense given DS' track record, unless I'm missing something.

    their track record? or their "good guy" status?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chequamegon View Post
    What kind of column and mobile phase were you using, out of curiosity? According to the label, the denbrobium extract contains pretty much all PEA analogs which should all make it through. There were a few oddball ones in there too though... denbrobine? dendroxine? I'm guessing those might not make it through - depending on your pore size.
    DB5 column with helium as the carrier gas. 15 meters long with 0.3micron film

    i did an alkaline extraction of the material to ensure the alkaloids were all in free base form

    the big dendro polycylic compounds may not have eluted, if they were in there to begin with
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    their track record? or their "good guy" status?
    Elaborate? I'm not defending anyone here, but it's tough to get to the details with this sort of communication. I'm confident that you won't get sued for voicing your opinion about individuals.
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    The more I read the more it sounds like a lot of people would luuuuv for craze to be taken off the market,
    and all of them sounds like DS competitors, and no i'm not referring only about people here on AM
    I personally trust DS 100%, the product has been tested for a long time before being release..
    I also think DS knew they had a great product that probably was about to piss a lot of people off,
    I think they were expecting something like this to happen, I doubt they were not prepared..
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Elaborate? I'm not defending anyone here, but it's tough to get to the details with this sort of communication. I'm confident that you won't get sued for voicing your opinion about individuals.
    i sent you a PM
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    Quote Originally Posted by AutoKal47 View Post
    The more I read the more it sounds like a lot of people would luuuuv for craze to be taken off the market,
    and all of them sounds like DS competitors, and no i'm not referring only about people here on AM
    I personally trust DS 100%, the product has been tested for a long time before being release..
    .
    as ronald reagan once said doveryai, no proveryai

    did you trust DS 100 percent when they assured you that superdrol had been tested and found to be very liver safe?
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    DS has been a solid go to company for sure. I'd buy stock in LeanXtreme if they'd let me.

    That said, ANY news like this from ANY company is nothing short of disappointing and frustrating

    What a shame to risk wrecking your reputation over ONE product. So short-sited.

    I hope they bounce back and learn a lesson though.

    Quote Originally Posted by AutoKal47 View Post
    The more I read the more it sounds like a lot of people would luuuuv for craze to be taken off the market,
    and all of them sounds like DS competitors, and no i'm not referring only about people here on AM
    I personally trust DS 100%, the product has been tested for a long time before being release..
    I also think DS knew they had a great product that probably was about to piss a lot of people off,
    I think they were expecting something like this to happen, I doubt they were not prepared..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    as ronald reagan once said doveryai, no proveryai

    did you trust DS 100 percent when they assured you that superdrol had been tested and found to be very liver safe?
    LMAO!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    as ronald reagan once said doveryai, no proveryai

    did you trust DS 100 percent when they assured you that superdrol had been tested and found to be very liver safe?
    Driven Sports did something with Superdrol or said something about it?

    I don't know how anyone could fully trust a company in any industry really. But in the supplement industry especially. I've always enjoyed Driven Sports and the products of their's that they have used, but FFS trust them? I don't trust anyone fully that is trying to make money off of me. Especially not in an industry where this type of thing happens all the time.

    But we don't really know much at this point and making real judgements seems pretty rushed imo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce View Post
    Driven Sports did something with Superdrol or said something about it?

    I don't know how anyone could fully trust a company in any industry really. But in the supplement industry especially. I've always enjoyed Driven Sports and the products of their's that they have used, but FFS trust them? I don't trust anyone fully that is trying to make money off of me. Especially not in an industry where this type of thing happens all the time.





    But we don't really know much at this point and making real judgements seems pretty rushed imo.


    Designer Supplements, not Driven Sports.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce View Post
    Driven Sports did something with Superdrol or said something about it?
    .
    Driven Sports is the new incarnation of Desinger Supplements. Exact same people, and many of the same products

    Desginer Supplements introduced Superdrol to the market and made the aforementioned assurances when they did
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    Driven Sports is the new incarnation of Desinger Supplements. Exact same people, and many of the same products

    Desginer Supplements introduced Superdrol to the market and made the aforementioned assurances when they did
    Thanks for the clarification PA, must have been when I was "out" of the supp game for a while
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    as ronald reagan once said doveryai, no proveryai

    did you trust DS 100 percent when they assured you that superdrol had been tested and found to be very liver safe?
    nope, never cared about superdrol or any other PHs for that matters
    but obviously I am following the whole thing because I am curious, curious to see IF craze gets banned,
    and even why it gets banned (as in if it's actually harmful or just because some well played move..)

    You kinda sound like you do know the product has something wrong tho'
    ..:: ENHANCED BODY FORMULATIONS ::..
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    Quote Originally Posted by AutoKal47 View Post
    nope, never cared about superdrol or any other PHs for that matters
    but obviously I am following the whole thing because I am curious, curious to see IF craze gets banned,
    and even why it gets banned (as in if it's actually harmful or just because some well played move..)

    You kinda sound like you do know the product has something wrong tho'

    I dont know anything specifically about craze but i have seen this sort of scenario play out before with diet/energy products.

    I have seen it play out before with erection supplements as well

    And most times the company selling the product is as shocked as anyone, because the spiking and duping is being done on the raw material end (in china, where they wont get in trouble)
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    actually drinking some right now
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    Oh, hai!
    GENOMYX REPRESENTATIVE
    GENOMYX.COM
    STIMaholic & PHENADROL Now Available!
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    Quote Originally Posted by uforce View Post
    actually drinking some right now
    Yea just finished mine, A single tear rolled down my cheek when i finished, wondering if that will be my last.
    Quote Originally Posted by Level9Germ View Post
    Common bro why would u take d Bol just take plain steroids if ur gonna do it since first place
    Quote Originally Posted by Son_Of_SEALs View Post
    I dont want titties.... will that product work for a SERM?
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    Hilarious! Craze is now number one at Nutraplanet!. Selling is just too damn easy on the forums.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    Hilarious! Craze is now number one at Nutraplanet!. Selling is just too damn easy on the forums.
    im sure when they put it to $25 a bottle, everyone hawked in and took advantage of it. stuff is legit, tho!
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    Quote Originally Posted by tnubs View Post
    im sure when they put it to $25 a bottle, everyone hawked in and took advantage of it. stuff is legit, tho!

    All the other products they have are great. Craze, I don't like though. I'd rather not feel like I'm on drugs when working out. To each his own though....
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    All the other products they have are great. Craze, I don't like though. I'd rather not feel like I'm on drugs when working out. To each his own though....
    its like 22 servings of cocaine... for the low low
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