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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.50 View Post
    Well guys because of personal reasons I will be getting my second blood draw either tomorrow or wednesday.

    Mr.50
    Cant wait to see your results man!

    I do feel as if this supp is starting to slowly kick in and I say slooowly. Libido and aggression are rising steadily. I'm guessing that about the time the bottle is empty I'll be really feeling it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by broons View Post
    Cant wait to see your results man!

    I do feel as if this supp is starting to slowly kick in and I say slooowly. Libido and aggression are rising steadily. I'm guessing that about the time the bottle is empty I'll be really feeling it.
    Had my blood drawn this morning (then went for some fasted cardio). Should have the results back in a few days. I do have to agree with Broons though...it feels as if it is really subtly kicking in....very even increase though subjectively. Not like other test boosters where 2 days after you start taking them you want to screw anything in sight. We'll see what the blood work says.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andrew732 View Post
    Realize that won't mean much, since after all; its ENDOGENOUS testosterone and not a synthetic source of it. I like to take myself as an example, I still can obtain over 2000ng/dl naturally and am not that big of a dude, but I got plenty of ANDROGENIC attributes.
    Are you saying that endogenous testosterone levels released by the HPTA axis...the thing that sky rockets during puberty in men...has no effect on strength, recovery, and muscle mass?
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoHardOrGoHme View Post
    Are you saying that endogenous testosterone levels released by the HPTA axis...the thing that sky rockets during puberty in men...has no effect on strength, recovery, and muscle mass?
    I think what he was trying to get at, Please correct me if I am wrong, is that if you already hover at the top of the normal range (say 1200ng) then going to slightly above the normal range (say 1400ng) will not have a tremendous noticable effect. This is not the same as say when a male going through puberty goes from very low testosterone (pre-puberty) and his body starts producing test in the normal range for an adult male (say 1000ng). That represents a significant change in the homeostatic environment which is really the link to anabolism, not any particular level of test. So a significant change in test level over any particula person's baseline (which can be different person to person of course) is what leads to the effects we usually associated with increased testosterone (not the level of the testosterone itself).

    So a 347% increase should do something. But if that effect is only for people at the bottom of the normal range or below normal then for people with high normal baseline test the % increase may only be 20% and that is likely not noticable subjectively.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.50 View Post
    I think what he was trying to get at, Please correct me if I am wrong, is that if you already hover at the top of the normal range (say 1200ng) then going to slightly above the normal range (say 1400ng) will not have a tremendous noticable effect. This is not the same as say when a male going through puberty goes from very low testosterone (pre-puberty) and his body starts producing test in the normal range for an adult male (say 1000ng). That represents a significant change in the homeostatic environment which is really the link to anabolism, not any particular level of test. So a significant change in test level over any particula person's baseline (which can be different person to person of course) is what leads to the effects we usually associated with increased testosterone (not the level of the testosterone itself).

    So a 347% increase should do something. But if that effect is only for people at the bottom of the normal range or below normal then for people with high normal baseline test the % increase may only be 20% and that is likely not noticable subjectively.

    Mr.50

    Well the reason why i ask is that according to his post(unless i misread it)....even if there is a 347% increase due to the bulbine...it would make a difference since the test is being released endogenously.

    Me...a perfectly healthy 23 year old male never having used a hormonal cycle...suddenly expereinces a 347% increase in testosterone, i dont care if its exogenous(which shutdown the HPTA) or endogenous...i will definitely note an increase in training performance.

    The decrease in endogenous testosterone has been well documented in the research literature to negatively effect training performance and various other factors(including cognitive ability if i remember an article i read not too long ago). Endogenous levels of testosterone are vital for training and if they drop, you will know it. If they raise, well it can only help. Even if a 20% raise helps an extra 5% in overal gains...ill gladly take that 5% considering these are safe gains with no short or long term side effects.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoHardOrGoHme View Post
    Well the reason why i ask is that according to his post(unless i misread it)....even if there is a 347% increase due to the bulbine...it would make a difference since the test is being released endogenously.

    Me...a perfectly healthy 23 year old male never having used a hormonal cycle...suddenly expereinces a 347% increase in testosterone, i dont care if its exogenous(which shutdown the HPTA) or endogenous...i will definitely note an increase in training performance.

    The decrease in endogenous testosterone has been well documented in the research literature to negatively effect training performance and various other factors(including cognitive ability if i remember an article i read not too long ago). Endogenous levels of testosterone are vital for training and if they drop, you will know it. If they raise, well it can only help. Even if a 20% raise helps an extra 5% in overal gains...ill gladly take that 5% considering these are safe gains with no short or long term side effects.
    I have to agree with this. Long term side effects are a bear to deal with, thats why I want bulbine to be legit!
    for while bodily training is of some value, godliness is of value in every way, as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come 1 Tim 4:8
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoHardOrGoHme View Post
    Well the reason why i ask is that according to his post(unless i misread it)....even if there is a 347% increase due to the bulbine...it would make a difference since the test is being released endogenously.

    Me...a perfectly healthy 23 year old male never having used a hormonal cycle...suddenly expereinces a 347% increase in testosterone, i dont care if its exogenous(which shutdown the HPTA) or endogenous...i will definitely note an increase in training performance.

    The decrease in endogenous testosterone has been well documented in the research literature to negatively effect training performance and various other factors(including cognitive ability if i remember an article i read not too long ago). Endogenous levels of testosterone are vital for training and if they drop, you will know it. If they raise, well it can only help. Even if a 20% raise helps an extra 5% in overal gains...ill gladly take that 5% considering these are safe gains with no short or long term side effects.

    No no.... I agree. BUT what I am saying is that the percentage increase is really the only relevant factor in determining if you "notice" a difference. The total level is really not that relevant because in a living system there are many other hormones that play a factor as well as neurological factors. So if your baseline is 1200ngs of Test then your body may or may not (depending on your body's internal set points for homeostasis) raise estrogen conversion, cortisol production, insuling sensitivity, etc to attempt to make sure the "anabolic" effect throughout your body does not go unchecked. So its the relative change compared to the baseline values (and their relationship to the baseline values of the other hormones and factors) that really tells the tale.

    Mr.50
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    Quote Originally Posted by james122 View Post
    I have to agree with this. Long term side effects are a bear to deal with, thats why I want bulbine to be legit!
    I went back and reread the original poster's post (andrew) and I disagree with it based on my above explainations. Andrew obviously has a naturally occuring baseline value for test that is high but looking at that and using that with the factor that he is not that big of a guy (he said it not me) to reach a conclusion about if high endogenous test will produce an effect is an erroneous argument because it discounts the other internal factors in Andrew's body that may offset the anabolic effect of his high natural test.

    Mr.50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.50 View Post
    No no.... I agree. BUT what I am saying is that the percentage increase is really the only relevant factor in determining if you "notice" a difference. The total level is really not that relevant because in a living system there are many other hormones that play a factor as well as neurological factors. So if your baseline is 1200ngs of Test then your body may or may not (depending on your body's internal set points for homeostasis) raise estrogen conversion, cortisol production, insuling sensitivity, etc to attempt to make sure the "anabolic" effect throughout your body does not go unchecked. So its the relative change compared to the baseline values (and their relationship to the baseline values of the other hormones and factors) that really tells the tale.

    Mr.50

    You make an excellent point that I overlooked in our discussion. Good post.
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    Good discussion happening in here and I have enjoyed reading these posts. That said, regardless of what the total % increase in free/total test is, the real question is how effective is it over a large population of users. Moreover, how will it perform for those using it standalone like GHGH will as a natural athlete versus someone like me who wants to use it after a cycle of Epi or anyone else using it after a hormonal cycle. Lastly, test needs to be raised for more than just a few weeks to be truly effective so if this cannot be ran for say 8 weeks where you test is elevated for 6 of those weeks to a much higher than baseline level, it may not really be worth the cost. Some may disagree with this but for anyone who has taken a natural test booster, most agree that those runs are best at 8 weeks in length and produce the most gains that way as well.
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    One thing I was wondering that I don't think I've seen anywhere. Does anyone know if this is like most natty boosters where 8 weeks is the maximum recommended cycle?
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    I think the label recommends no more than 8.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oufinny View Post
    Good discussion happening in here and I have enjoyed reading these posts. That said, regardless of what the total % increase in free/total test is, the real question is how effective is it over a large population of users. Moreover, how will it perform for those using it standalone like GHGH will as a natural athlete versus someone like me who wants to use it after a cycle of Epi or anyone else using it after a hormonal cycle. Lastly, test needs to be raised for more than just a few weeks to be truly effective so if this cannot be ran for say 8 weeks where you test is elevated for 6 of those weeks to a much higher than baseline level, it may not really be worth the cost. Some may disagree with this but for anyone who has taken a natural test booster, most agree that those runs are best at 8 weeks in length and produce the most gains that way as well.
    OH MAN, DO I AGREE WITH THIS POST. when i started trt my test was very low-my doc called me into office and i got a 400mg shot. he also gave me a script for self injections. within a couple of days my libido went through the roof, i started feeling more energetic within a week.

    BUT it was at least a month after starting trt that i felt any true difference in strength at the gym.

    now-the question is, how could you expect a otc test booster to give results in the gym faster than actual testosterone?
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    OH MAN, DO I AGREE WITH THIS POST. when i started trt my test was very low-my doc called me into office and i got a 400mg shot. he also gave me a script for self injections. within a couple of days my libido went through the roof, i started feeling more energetic within a week.

    BUT it was at least a month after starting trt that i felt any true difference in strength at the gym.

    now-the question is, how could you expect a otc test booster to give results in the gym faster than actual testosterone?
    that being said, I guess that is the real question? maybe it is something that needs to be run for 8 weeks or more?
    for while bodily training is of some value, godliness is of value in every way, as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come 1 Tim 4:8
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    Quote Originally Posted by james122 View Post
    that being said, I guess that is the real question? maybe it is something that needs to be run for 8 weeks or more?
    to get true, substantial gains in the gym i think 8 weeks for every test booster-with maybe the exception of daa, not sure on that one yet. it seems that test needs to be elevated for a period of time before results start to happen- that is why people run aas for long cycles, imo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    to get true, substantial gains in the gym i think 8 weeks for every test booster-with maybe the exception of daa, not sure on that one yet. it seems that test needs to be elevated for a period of time before results start to happen- that is why people run aas for long cycles, imo.
    Test IMO shares that same property of needed duration [exceeding 8 weeks] that HGH has of 6 months based on what I read. Plus, as BigT said in his other post, it is not just feeling better that means it is working it is the anabolic properties showing themselves and decreased fat mass that comes with higher test levels for extended periods. I.E. why everyone run injectible test, relatively safe and wildly effective. Now, if Phyto works as it is advertised which I REALLY do hope it does, then we have ourselves winner boys and girls .
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    Hey awesome thread going here guys and I would have to agree on the 8 weeks being Ideal for stand alone test/performance boosting. Doing a give away ont he product in another thread to get as may different logs going as we can too..

    I noticed some one mentioned something to the effect of "hope you did not waste your money" .. Come on guys I would think by now everyone would know that any product I deal with and own You are never going to have to worry about wasting your money.. Contact me, send the empty bottle back for all I care and I will get you a refund. Take the money and spend it on another product I sell until you find one that you do like.

    Its called a trusting business relationship between a customer and a seller. I am in it for the long hall with my customers and friends. Not the quick sales and I will make sure you are given every opportunity to find a product you do love through me and not worry about wasting any of your money in the process. That is how it should be done IMO..

    Love and respect for all. And always here 24 hours a day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by needtogetmuscle View Post

    I noticed some one mentioned something to the effect of "hope you did not waste your money" .. Come on guys I would think by now everyone would know that any product I deal with and own You are never going to have to worry about wasting your money.. Contact me, send the empty bottle back for all I care and I will get you a refund. Take the money and spend it on another product I sell until you find one that you do like.

    Its called a trusting business relationship between a customer and a seller. I am in it for the long hall with my customers and friends. Not the quick sales and I will make sure you are given every opportunity to find a product you do love through me and not worry about wasting any of your money in the process. That is how it should be done IMO..

    Love and respect for all. And always here 24 hours a day.
    Reps to you. Nice to see a company put their money where their mouth is, literally, and stand up for their products.
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    Quote Originally Posted by broons View Post
    Reps to you. Nice to see a company put their money where their mouth is, literally, and stand up for their products.
    i agree, the man was generous enough to let me try 2 of his products [formastanzol/skeletal balm] and i can honestly say i was very impressed with both.

    this doesn't guarantee that this product will be a winner but the money back guarantee sure does sweeten the pot, imo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.50 View Post
    Well dont get down yet.....I was in the sack with my lady last night and clearly felt some interesting positive effects BUT not sure if that was from Phyto or if it was because it had been a while (scheduling and travel problems, and Im trying to be faithful, LOL). But I can say it was pretty extreme.....will have to run another "experiment" and then see if the reuslts can be reproduced or if it was just a fluke.

    Again the true test will be the followup blood work.

    Mr.50
    Curious to learn how the 2nd "experiment" turn out ?
    Arousal increase, would most certainly be an attribute to the supp., I would think.
    Last edited by scoooter; 12-09-2010 at 01:13 PM. Reason: sp
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    With that guarantee I am surely going to get HCG or Phyto for my PCT without a doubt. I know with HCG I will be totally happy since I repsond well to the ingredients and the samples, as for Phyto, I really really really want this to work for me!!!!! Here's to hoping.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oufinny View Post
    With that guarantee I am surely going to get HCG or Phyto for my PCT without a doubt. I know with HCG I will be totally happy since I repsond well to the ingredients and the samples, as for Phyto, I really really really want this to work for me!!!!! Here's to hoping.
    yup-not completely sold on pytoserm, but hcgenerate is on my after christmas list.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    yup-not completely sold on pytoserm, but hcgenerate is on my after christmas list.
    Honestly, that is my favorite supp. It's on my everyday list.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rahl View Post
    Honestly, that is my favorite supp. It's on my everyday list.
    i have heard that too many times, from too many people to ignore it. i will definately be getting some after i spoil my family with christmas gifts.
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    I'm on day 7 of my PCT and I am already experiencing involuntary wood (remember I'm 52) I am however using a lot of products as this is PCT and I would never put my eggs in one basket loll ... I am hopefull of a good recovery though...
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    I'm on day 7 of my PCT and I am already experiencing involuntary wood (remember I'm 52) I am however using a lot of products as this is PCT and I would never put my eggs in one basket loll ... I am hopefull of a good recovery though...
    lol at the "eggs" reference
    for while bodily training is of some value, godliness is of value in every way, as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come 1 Tim 4:8
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    I'm on day 7 of my PCT and I am already experiencing involuntary wood (remember I'm 52) I am however using a lot of products as this is PCT and I would never put my eggs in one basket loll ... I am hopefull of a good recovery though...
    phytoserm or hcghenerate, dw?
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    subbed for 50's second set of blood work!

    Great discussions in here guys!
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    I know the name (Phytoserm) seems to indicate the mechanism of action of Bulbine is as a SERM but has anyone actually proven the mechanism of action to be a SERM effect.....and if that is the case should an AI be run in a reverse at the cessation of use of Phytoserm to make sure to ward off any estrogen rebound effects?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    phytoserm or hcghenerate, dw?
    Phyto but I am taking testopro and SA as well oh and low dose Tor...
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    i have heard that too many times, from too many people to ignore it. i will definately be getting some after i spoil my family with christmas gifts.
    That is originally what I was going to get but it's always out of stock whenever i look! So I went with the phytoserms to give it a test run.

    I may actually pull the trigger on another bottle of phyto just to give it a full 8 weeks cycle to completely gauge my response to it. Whether I do or not, in part, depends on what Mr 50's bloodwork looks like.

    I know it's doing something cuz the last couple days my nuts have been pretty swole lol. Haven't seen any strength gains or better recovery yet, but I've been feeling pretty good during my workouts like just wanting to kill it. Aggression is getting pretty elevated, almost too much outside of working out lol. Only other thing I've noticed the last 2 days is that twice now I have noticed a small amount of "leakage" from the tip of my boy parts.
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    Well guys the bloodwork is back.... its improvement but nothing very impressive


    TEST TOTAL: 11/23 = 419ng/dL 12/8 = 490 ng/dL

    Free Test: 11/23 = 10.6 pg/ML 12/8 = 12.3 pg/ML


    So I realize it is only 2 weeks (wish I could have waited longer but for personal reasons I needed to do the blood work now) and there is a trend towards improvement but the magnitude of improvement is not that impressive. There is the possibility that I may have the blood work repeated again in another few weeks. I will keep taking the Phyto and if I have the blood work done again I will post....no promises on the blood work though (paying out of pocket so the cost can be prohibitive).

    Mr.50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.50 View Post
    Well guys the bloodwork is back.... its improvement but nothing very impressive


    TEST TOTAL: 11/23 = 419ng/dL 12/8 = 490 ng/dL

    Free Test: 11/23 = 10.6 pg/ML 12/8 = 12.3 pg/ML


    So I realize it is only 2 weeks (wish I could have waited longer but for personal reasons I needed to do the blood work now) and there is a trend towards improvement but the magnitude of improvement is not that impressive. There is the possibility that I may have the blood work repeated again in another few weeks. I will keep taking the Phyto and if I have the blood work done again I will post....no promises on the blood work though (paying out of pocket so the cost can be prohibitive).

    Mr.50
    did you have estrogen/prolactin checked?
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    So unless I completely suck at math, looks like about a 15% increase after 2 weeks?
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    did you have estrogen/prolactin checked?
    The when the script was ordered originally to include Estrodiol, someone f'ed up and forgot to do the estrodiol.

    So I didnt have it repeated on this run either (since there was no baseline). Also if this works as a SERM it may give a falze positive for elevated Estrodiol .....of course no one has bothered to address my question above as to the mechanism of action of bulbine? (I have asked here and over in IForce's thread and no one seems to want to respond to it).

    My Prolactin levels are slightly elevated (both on the original test and on this one 22 and 24 respectively) but I would urge you not to read too far into that since I am on an SSRI and all SSRI's have the potential to raise prolactin. I have some prescription grade Cabergoline (liquid research chems for Cab are junk) on the way to attempt to counteract the prolactin increase form the SSRI.

    Mr.50
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    Quote Originally Posted by broons View Post
    So unless I completely suck at math, looks like about a 15% increase after 2 weeks?
    Yup.....its something but not clear if there is a clinical significance....please remember that testosterone levels can vary a great deal throughout the day.

    Mr.50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.50 View Post
    The when the script was ordered originally to include Estrodiol, someone f'ed up and forgot to do the estrodiol.

    So I didnt have it repeated on this run either (since there was no baseline). Also if this works as a SERM it may give a falze positive for elevated Estrodiol .....of course no one has bothered to address my question above as to the mechanism of action of bulbine? (I have asked here and over in IForce's thread and no one seems to want to respond to it).

    My Prolactin levels are slightly elevated (both on the original test and on this one 22 and 24 respectively) but I would urge you not to read too far into that since I am on an SSRI and all SSRI's have the potential to raise prolactin. I have some prescription grade Cabergoline (liquid research chems for Cab are junk) on the way to attempt to counteract the prolactin increase form the SSRI.

    Mr.50
    GOOD POST-i hope your results continue to improve!
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    GOOD POST-i hope your results continue to improve!
    Thanks bro.

    Mr.50
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    GOOD POST-i hope your results continue to improve!
    x 2
    for while bodily training is of some value, godliness is of value in every way, as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come 1 Tim 4:8
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    Ive been waiting to see this bloodwork. For two weeks in, it may not be remarkable, but you yourself stated a very overlooked truth. Lot of things affect test levels throughout the day. If you have the funds for it, I would like to see the bloodwork in a few weeks. Are you running one bottle or two?

    Ive been following along with this thread, but have really been waiting to say something when mr 50 got his bloodwork. Anyone can claim they're getting a libido boost from a product, but at least he got some bloods done. A libido boost could be anything. Your dopamine levels could be up, your wife could have worn something sexy or cooked your favorite meal. Hell it could just be your day.

    I also believe that 4 weeks is a short run, on any test booster. Every test booster I have ever tried I have purchased two bottles and run it for 8 weeks. Some kicked in "sooner" then others, while some had me tearing everything up at the gym towards the end. I'm not gonna mention products, because I didn't get bloodwork to compare the results, so saying one worked more than another would be going off of pure speculation. I am glad to see that you did finally notice the effects.

    In my honest opinion I think that the amount of PMs I get on a regular basis on advice about stacks, how to incorporate products into a routine, and so forth, that our products speak for themselves and we have had many satisfied loggers, customers, with a few exceptions. Yeah, we're the new guys in town and some of the reps came off a bit strong when our sponsorship started but lets be realistic everybody. It would be borderline insane to invest so much money into a company and supplement formulation, the marketing and everything else just to throw out sugar pills. We want to be a house hold name. We want to help with goals. You have guarantees that state your money is not lost if you're not satisfied with something.
    **** Line @ NUTRAPLANET

    All posts are for entertainment purposes only.

    Need2slin... NOM NOM NOM :yup:
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