Epistane the anabolic GYNO destroyer

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  1. Never enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Me too E, I probably average 500-700mg caff/day depending on my application. Why do you think I condone most men take a low dose AI just for health reasons? Between the 1000's the potent xenoestrogens in our environment and 100's of potential phytoestrogens in our food, it's no wonder there's so many whiny *****azz men these days that just don't know their role! I see the drama everywhere, the metro phenomenon, but it is generally not befitting of a man.
    hmm now I need to look into what is a nice low dose AI I can take year round without breaking the bank or other internal organs
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Me too E, I probably average 500-700mg caff/day depending on my application. Why do you think I condone most men take a low dose AI just for health reasons? Between the 1000's the potent xenoestrogens in our environment and 100's of potential phytoestrogens in our food, it's no wonder there's so many whiny *****azz men these days that just don't know their role! I see the drama everywhere, the metro phenomenon, but it is generally not befitting of a man.
    I cannot tell you how much I love ur post(mainly the part about the 'metro phenomenon). Im with ya there. By the way, which AI do you prefer for and what dosage?
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    As for xenoestrogens et al, I agree and my last gyno episode really came out of nowhere. I hadn't used any PHs for 8-9 months. I looked pretty dry too.

    I can only speculate what factor or combination of factors caused it to flare...caffeine, high thyroid output, DHEA use..but really, none of those were in the extreme at all and shouldn't have caused it.

    Really makes you wonder sometimes.

    BTW, other than my gyno not going away totally, my Epi cycle was like a dream. Nice smooth gains, no mental disturbances, no shortness of breath, and only occassional fatigue that was probably unrelated. It is the ONE I will use most.

    Thanks Again D!
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    Just thought you guys would find this interesting in relation to Estrogen issues in our environment:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ottawa Newspaper

    Saturday, January 05, 2002 NEWSLETTERS

    Women who take birth control pills or hormone therapy are flushing
    enough hormones down the toilet to make male fish downstream produce
    eggs, a Canadian study shows.

    Synthetic estrogen in the women's urine goes through sewage treatment
    plants without being completely broken down, and the fish absorb it,
    with bad effects following.

    Male fish produce eggs in their testes. Female fish are stimulated by
    the extra hormones to produce eggs at the wrong times of year.

    And there are questions, still unanswered, about whether these
    chemically altered fish are capable of reproducing at all.

    Scientists have seen this "gender-bending" effect in fish downstream
    from sewage plants, but lacked proof that birth control pills are a
    cause.

    So Karen Kidd of Fisheries and Oceans Canada started dribbling bits of
    the synthetic hormone from birth control pills into a 34-hectare lake in
    northwestern Ontario, west of Dryden, to find out. The lakes are so
    remote they don't even have names (this one is called Lake 260) and are
    perfectly suited to act as giant experiments because they are
    practically untouched by pollution.

    Sure enough, the male lake trout, white suckers, fathead minnows and
    pearl dace turned up this fall with proteins that females use to
    manufacture egg cells, and in some cases with the eggs themselves.

    "The question now is whether this feminization is affecting the
    population size or sustainability," she said. "Can males with eggs in
    their testes reproduce effectively? Can they contribute to the
    population?"

    It will take another summer of adding chemicals, and a couple of years
    of counting fish afterwards, to know the full effects. But Ms. Kidd is
    finding an interested audience in Vancouver this weekend, where she will
    show her early results to a conference of fisheries scientists.

    "People consume the birth control pills and it's lost from their bodies
    and goes into the sewage," said Peter Leavitt, a biology professor at
    the University of Regina. "So we get this huge population in sources
    like cities, dumping this very high concentration of hormones into the
    water bodies. And the question is: Is it having an influence?

    "It seems to be mimicking some of the reproductive hormones that other
    organisms use, and it's basically messing up their reproductive
    strategies," he said. "I think it's really significant," because no one
    thought of human sewage as a source of this type of pollution before, he
    said.

    "And what Karen is showing is that there are consequence of large
    numbers of people living in an area ... It's not so much that we're
    destroying their (the wildlife's) habitat. But we're actually changing
    the chemical environment in which they live and breathe."

    Ms. Kidd says both natural and synthetic estrogen go into sewage in
    urine, but bacteria take longer to break down the synthetic version,
    which means more of it gets into the fish.

    For 10 years scientists have studied chemicals that act like estrogen in
    fish, other wildlife, and even humans that eat tainted fish. Many of
    these come from pesticides or industrial waste and are never intended to
    be like hormones at all. But this study is unique in looking at real
    hormones flushed down the drain.

    Ms. Kidd says both natural and synthetic estrogen go into the sewage
    system in urine, but bacteria take longer to break down the synthetic
    version, which means more of it gets into the fish.

    The Lake 260 experiment uses the amount of hormone that would come from
    6,000 women taking the pill, she said.

    Copyright 2002 The Ottawa Citizen
    Identification and Quantification of Estrogen Receptor Agonists in Wastewater Effluents

    Mineralization of Steroidal Hormones by Biosolids in Wastewater Treatment Systems in Tennessee U.S.A.
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    hey neo, you live in canada right? jk. btw that was some endorsement by bioman.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ugab37 View Post
    I cannot tell you how much I love ur post(mainly the part about the 'metro phenomenon). Im with ya there. By the way, which AI do you prefer for and what dosage?
    As far as just a static, daily AI treatment to discourage the effects of environmental estrogen, I like...

    50mg 6-Br > 150mg Formestane > 12.5mg ATD

    Teslac and Exemestane have their place too, but require an Rx and are quite expensive.

    I'm glad somebody else sees what's happing to us men! It's not good. Neo's post epitomizes the whole situation with the fish example. That's us guys, the fish down stream. It's in the food we eat, the contaminants in milk fat, the plastic, pesticides and industrial waste in our home and water supply, even the air we breath. Basically, you are going to feminize in the world today if you do not guard against it. More men get breast cancer now that ever before, but it can mostly be prevented with some smart preventative supplementation.
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    No wonder I cry so much

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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    As far as just a static, daily AI treatment to discourage the effects of environmental estrogen, I like...

    50mg 6-Br > 150mg Formestane > 12.5mg ATD

    Teslac and Exemestane have their place too, but require an Rx and are quite expensive.

    I'm glad somebody else sees what's happing to us men! It's not good. Neo's post epitomizes the whole situation with the fish example. That's us guys, the fish down stream. It's in the food we eat, the contaminants in milk fat, the plastic, pesticides and industrial waste in our home and water supply, even the air we breath. Basically, you are going to feminize in the world today if you do not guard against it. More men get breast cancer now that ever before, but it can mostly be prevented with some smart preventative supplementation.
    so you are advocating low dose td formestane for long term? i hope so, td form is one of my favorites. give me a plan doc. please.
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    Quote Originally Posted by neoborn View Post
    No wonder I cry so much

    Crying does not require high estrogen, contrary to popular belief! Only a heart. And yes, only a REAL man is strong enough to have a warm blooded circulatory function. So that's OK Neo, sometimes it takes a pretty big man to cry like a little girl.

    Although progesterone does contribute to whining I'm convinced, lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    so you are advocating low dose td formestane for long term? i hope so, td form is one of my favorites. give me a plan doc. please.
    Not necessarily, it depends on the man, his genetic disposition and what he is exposed to, but in general I think it's a smart idea if you wanna guard against future endocrine issues like breast and prostate cancer.

    Do you work around chemical or solvents for a living, do you drink whole milk or consume lots of daily, do you live in a high population area where lots of industrial stuff is going on, do you heat your food in plastic in the microwave to survive (like most bachelors do, lol, I know how it goes) then it's not a bad idea if you answered yes to any of those! Just a little AI is all you need, not too much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Not necessarily, it depends on the man, his genetic disposition and what he is exposed to, but in general I think it's a smart idea if you wanna guard against future endocrine issues like breast and prostate cancer.

    Do you work around chemical or solvents for a living, do you drink whole milk or consume lots of daily, do you live in a high population area where lots of industrial stuff is going on, do you heat your food in plastic in the microwave to survive (like most bachelors do, lol, I know how it goes) then it's not a bad idea if you answered yes to any of those! Just a little AI is all you need, not too much.
    thanks doc, and remember-a friend of neo's is a friend indeed. jk neo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Not necessarily, it depends on the man, his genetic disposition and what he is exposed to, but in general I think it's a smart idea if you wanna guard against future endocrine issues like breast and prostate cancer.

    Do you work around chemical or solvents for a living, do you drink whole milk or consume lots of daily, do you live in a high population area where lots of industrial stuff is going on, do you heat your food in plastic in the microwave to survive (like most bachelors do, lol, I know how it goes) then it's not a bad idea if you answered yes to any of those! Just a little AI is all you need, not too much.
    Since these are estrogens we are taking into our body would a low dose SERM be beneficial at all? Or maybe high dosed resveratrol (other than its many other benefits)? I would think that may be more protective than an AI. Or maybe a low dosed AI daily with a low dosed SERM (daily, or 3-4x/week?)? I don't know a ton about all the actions in the body of a SERM (I think Nolva could possibly be hard on the liver?). Or would just an AI be more than enough?
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    well, jason brings up a question, Dr D, I don't recall reading too much that you've said either way about resveratrol. Care to share a tidbit?
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    One also has to consider that there's the possibility for some of these xenoestrogens to not respond to AI's or being displaced by SERMs. There's a lot we don't know yet.

    But I do like the idea of low dose 6 bromo. Using trans 6-oxo now..but getting tired of the whole lotion thing. lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by bioman View Post
    One also has to consider that there's the possibility for some of these xenoestrogens to not respond to AI's or being displaced by SERMs. There's a lot we don't know yet.

    But I do like the idea of low dose 6 bromo. Using trans 6-oxo now..but getting tired of the whole lotion thing. lol
    It puts the lotion into the basket.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    well, jason brings up a question, Dr D, I don't recall reading too much that you've said either way about resveratrol. Care to share a tidbit?
    Yes, it has potential, but like Bio stated some of these estrogens have receptor affinities that would supersede Resveratrol no doubt. The AI is not complete coverage either because it only limits aromatization which is not necessarily required with these already active environmental estrogens, but at least it limits the compounding contributions of E2. Either one is better than nothing and a low dose of each is probably best.
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    I suppose a gram of active of resveratrol a day wouldn't qualify as low dose I was trying to match the rat studies corrected for metabolism. Once I was able to get it at that dose for under $1/day, i felt it was worth it
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I suppose a gram of active of resveratrol a day wouldn't qualify as low dose I was trying to match the rat studies corrected for metabolism. Once I was able to get it at that dose for under $1/day, i felt it was worth it
    I'd say ~300mg for a long term approach just for E control is plenty. Maybe even just 150 if stacked with a low dose AI too.

    1g is more of an intentional test boosting or PCT type dose.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I suppose a gram of active of resveratrol a day wouldn't qualify as low dose I was trying to match the rat studies corrected for metabolism. Once I was able to get it at that dose for under $1/day, i felt it was worth it
    You source it directly from a manufacturer or something?
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    This low price interests me too. What is the best quality for the lowest price with the highest potency at the moment?

    Much Love,

    Neoborn
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    I'll probably get mod edited by yeahright but at least he'll have his answer the brand name is nutrabulk, and you can probably where to buy them for $99 for a bottle of 1000 100mg caps (that active, 200mg of 50%) if you search for em. I'm going to get some NOW quercetin to take along with them. For raws (which I also have) I comically can't quite get it as cheap but the brand where the 98+99% is the cheapest is Megaresveratrol, also search for them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I'll probably get mod edited by yeahright but at least he'll have his answer the brand name is nutrabulk, and you can probably where to buy them for $99 for a bottle of 1000 100mg caps (that active, 200mg of 50%) if you search for em. I'm going to get some NOW quercetin to take along with them. For raws (which I also have) I comically can't quite get it as cheap but the brand where the 98+99% is the cheapest is Megaresveratrol, also search for them.
    Why is everyone stacking quercitin these days?! This stuff is estrogenic. Not only that, it turns up progesterone secretion too. Why would you wanna go and do that to yourselves, don't you have a sex life? Quercitin negates the benefits of the resveratrol, or at the very least opposes them.

    When you guys start noticing libido and 'performance' issues, remember these words and drop the quercitin!

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...ubmed_RVDocSum
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Why is everyone stacking quercitin these days?! This stuff is estrogenic. Not only that, it turns up progesterone secretion too. Why would you wanna go and do that to yourselves, don't you have a sex life? Quercitin negates the benefits of the resveratrol, or at the very least opposes them.

    When you guys start noticing libido and 'performance' issues, remember these words and drop the quercitin!

    Effects of genistein, resveratrol, and quercetin o...[J Endocrinol. 2007] - PubMed Result
    Doc how long have you known about that?! You gotta share the wealth of info man, thats the thing I like about your arch nemisis PA, if he has info on something he doesn't think we should be taking, he tells us. Maybe for his own business's good, maybe for our own but he tells us. Thats good info right there, I was thinking of Giant Resveratrol for long term use, not anymore. Unless PA happens to make an appearance and refute this with a lot more science.
    Thanks D

    Edit: Was also liking AI Post Cycle Support, if you guys wanna chime in on quercetin please do...
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonschaffin View Post
    Doc how long have you known about that?! You gotta share the wealth of info man, thats the thing I like about your arch nemisis PA, if he has info on something he doesn't think we should be taking, he tells us. Maybe for his own business's good, maybe for our own but he tells us. Thats good info right there, I was thinking of Giant Resveratrol for long term use, not anymore. Unless PA happens to make an appearance and refute this with a lot more science.
    Thanks D

    Edit: Was also liking AI Post Cycle Support, if you guys wanna chime in on quercetin please do...
    AI post cycle support?

    Well I have always given any info I have freely, all you have to do is ask J. This is not a dig on PA, I don't play that tit for tat BS. I don't wanna see you guys mislead though. I have studied and experimented with all the isoflavones and bioflavinoids at some point, and quercitin has it's place. It's a great capillary protectant for selective use, but I would not ingest it daily. I have before and as I stated, my libido was history after about 2-3wks. It took about that long to return too once I abandoned the protocol! If you just need a phenolic scapegoat to enhance the resveratrol bioavailability, for goodness sake use chrysin or even naringenin.
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    interesting. a number of formulas now use quercetin. But I get in plenty of naringenin between RPM + GFJ. maybe i forget the whole quercetin idea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    AI post cycle support?

    Well I have always given any info I have freely, all you have to do is ask J. This is not a dig on PA, I don't play that tit for tat BS. I don't wanna see you guys mislead though. I have studied and experimented with all the isoflavones and bioflavinoids at some point, and quercitin has it's place. It's a great capillary protectant for selective use, but I would not ingest it daily. I have before and as I stated, my libido was history after about 2-3wks. It took about that long to return too once I abandoned the protocol! If you just need a phenolic scapegoat to enhance the resveratrol bioavailability, for goodness sake use chrysin or even naringenin.

    If you haven't seen the AI Post Cycle Support I believe it is something like:
    1200 mg 50% Res (600mg Res)
    1200mg quercetin
    500mg HGW (20% Icariin)
    and a few mg's of Piperine

    Product is not out yet
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    Quercitin is a complex critter. It usually has numerous polyphenols and phyto's such as Rutin,naringin/naringinen in it.

    I've experimented with large doses of it for allergy control..before methyl B12 hit the scene...but I don't recall any libido changes. I'm married so I might as well not have one anyway. lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonschaffin View Post
    ... Product is not out yet
    Then there is still hope!

    I'd love to see a great company like AI do a post cycle therapy product that would one up the rest of these estrogenic/progestinic formulas. They'd make a killing on it till everybody else caught up and started using an appropriate enzyme inhibitor like naringenin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bioman View Post
    Quercitin is a complex critter. It usually has numerous polyphenols and phyto's such as Rutin,naringin/naringinen in it.

    I've experimented with large doses of it for allergy control..before methyl B12 hit the scene...but I don't recall any libido changes. I'm married so I might as well not have one anyway. lol
    Yeah, I had high hopes for hesperetin and quercitin too for my seasonal allergies. Never did help that I could tell though.

    LOL about the libido/marriage comment! You have a very valid point my friend.
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    Can someone explain to me the active / 50% thing like does this mean of those 100mg pills you would have to take 200mg to get 50% worth of pure res?

    Much Love,

    Neoborn
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Then there is still hope!

    I'd love to see a great company like AI do a post cycle therapy product that would one up the rest of these estrogenic/progestinic formulas. They'd make a killing on it till everybody else caught up and started using an appropriate enzyme inhibitor like naringenin.
    especially if they did some fairly detailed logging/studies on it. What I mean is say blood tests pre cycle, at end of cycle but before pct and then post pct. a couple of each of those with some of the most common compounds would be sweet (assuming the results were good )

    Actually still hijacking the thread for resveratrol's sake, PA mentioned something about resveratrol inhibiting its own passage thru the liver at high enough doses, but he never posted details. do you remember reading anything like that? I was wondering at what sort of dose it does that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    ... Actually still hijacking the thread for resveratrol's sake, PA mentioned something about resveratrol inhibiting its own passage thru the liver at high enough doses, but he never posted details. do you remember reading anything like that? I was wondering at what sort of dose it does that.
    It'll work alright, but it's an irresponsible and sloppy approach with major rebound potential. It's not like taking a specific enzyme inhibitor at low dose that targets the issue strategically, it's more like overwhelming the liver such that enzymes just can't keep up. Then what happens? It's called enzyme induction, and that's not good at all. Once that occurs, you are basically trapped to continue with the high daily doses so your upregulated enzyme system does rebel on you. It will rebel as soon as you quit so if you get caught in that trap, always taper off and don't quit cold turkey! I do not endorse his method.
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    Let me change gears for a second. D what are ur thoughts on Flaxseed Oil being estrogenic? I started a thread awhile back at DA about Fish Oil vs Flax Oil and he brought that to my attention. What doses do u recommend for Flax oil so one could benefit from it and not get to estrogenic from it? Does that question make sense lol?
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    Quote Originally Posted by UNCfan1 View Post
    Let me change gears for a second. D what are ur thoughts on Flaxseed Oil being estrogenic? I started a thread awhile back at DA about Fish Oil vs Flax Oil and he brought that to my attention. What doses do u recommend for Flax oil so one could benefit from it and not get to estrogenic from it? Does that question make sense lol?
    I have still not decided if it's the PUFs, contaminants (like heavy metals), lignans or isoflavones, but Flax does seem to have estrogenic potential from one or all of the above! That being said, I've used 5-10ml of the regular and in more recent years 10ml of the high lignan form daily with no obvious problems. It may be planting future tumorigenic seeds but as long as there are no overt symptoms of estrogen expression, I think the benefits justify the use. I also use coconut oil to supply my saturateds and/or MTC with safflower or almond (depending on what else I'm doing) for a good, well rounded blend. I have experimented with higher doses of flax, but not on a chronic basis. I would consider 5ml/day to be "safe" for most guys and a health dietary staple.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    I have still not decided if it's the PUFs, contaminants (like heavy metals), lignans or isoflavones, but Flax does seem to have estrogenic potential from one or all of the above! That being said, I've used 5-10ml of the regular and in more recent years 10ml of the high lignan form daily with no obvious problems. It may be planting future tumorigenic seeds but as long as there are no overt symptoms of estrogen expression, I think the benefits justify the use. I also use coconut oil to supply my saturateds and/or MTC with safflower or almond (depending on what else I'm doing) for a good, well rounded blend. I have experimented with higher doses of flax, but not on a chronic basis. I would consider 5ml/day to be "safe" for most guys and a health dietary staple.
    Thanks D, that thread that I was talking about got way over my head. Thanks for ur input!
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    hmmm
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    i have a small lump under both my nipples the right one is slightly bigger, from a dbol cycle. i can get hold of tamoxifen would this get rid of it? thanks,
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    i have a small lump under both my nipples the right one is slightly bigger, from a dbol cycle. i can get hold of tamoxifen would this get rid of it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Not necessarily, it depends on the man, his genetic disposition and what he is exposed to, but in general I think it's a smart idea if you wanna guard against future endocrine issues like breast and prostate cancer.

    Do you work around chemical or solvents for a living, do you drink whole milk or consume lots of daily, do you live in a high population area where lots of industrial stuff is going on, do you heat your food in plastic in the microwave to survive (like most bachelors do, lol, I know how it goes) then it's not a bad idea if you answered yes to any of those! Just a little AI is all you need, not too much.
    Glad someone bumped this thread at the end.
    I stopped drinking milk completely except for almond or coconut milk, working on getting microwave safe glass containers or at least the supposedly 'safe' plastic, and only clean my own home with soapnuts, vinegar, alcohol, and baking soda.
    (Although when I have to go over and clean my gran's home she insists on chemicals)

    Still i have read enough to know that you are exactly right.
    And since a certain new AI is out, will probably be running that for long cycles.
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    f@$#...
    i been using quercetin to increase availability of mosr everything but green tea for too long.
    capped wth bromelain out of thebottle, i figured a great combo with multiple benefits.
    gonna have to drop this.
    yikes!!!

    btw:
    "And since a certain new AI is out, will probably be running that for long cycles."

    GuyverX, which AI is that?

    I have been using 7-methoxy a couple times a day for a bit, and have been loving it actually.

    What are the opinions on 7-methoxy for long-term use?

    it is cheap enough...
    I picked up 20 grams for 20buxxx...

    ???
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