Havoc

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    Havoc can give you bad back and calf pumps. Last cycle I could not even play a soccer match...so I would not use it in your case.

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    I never had a BP issue with it and I do have that issue on a lot of DS /pH cycles I'm just prone to it...that being said it was never that bad for my cardio honestly the best thing for cardio I have tried is Furuza and 11oxo, well they didn't help my cardio but they did not hurt it either.
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    Thanks. I've waited this long I might just wait until after the race. That will give me a little more time to get back to where I was before I jacked my hand up. Even though I really want to start now so I can start tearing the gym up.
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    Ok guys started my havoc today. I'm starting at 198.7 lbs ill let you know where I end up at and how it goes.
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    I don't know why people are so obsessed with bodyweight.....positive changes in body composition is what really matters. If you add scale weight and its not fat, great....if you recomp or get really cut up, great....there is way too much emphasis on weight. Everybody is different, from 5'4" to 6'4" etc....and all manner of bone structures from small to large...weight doesn't mean shyt. not @anybody, just a random rant that ended up here
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnabolicHolic View Post
    I don't know why people are so obsessed with bodyweight.....positive changes in body composition is what really matters. If you add scale weight and its not fat, great....if you recomp or get really cut up, great....there is way too much emphasis on weight. Everybody is different, from 5'4" to 6'4" etc....and all manner of bone structures from small to large...weight doesn't mean shyt. not @anybody, just a random rant that ended up here
    Oh I mostly agree, but with a few obvious exceptions.. I used to fight so making weight was the goal at that time and make weight for light heavy for a contest etc..
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    Quote Originally Posted by harbonah View Post
    Oh I mostly agree, but with a few obvious exceptions.. I used to fight so making weight was the goal at that time and make weight for light heavy for a contest etc..
    yes the only exceptions are when you are trying to make weight for a fight or competition (but then again we are not speaking in relative terms with gaining on cycle vs. cutting for a competition)....and of course when you are a teen or early 20's guy who weighs 125 lbs soaking wet . That is why I was going to add "past a certain point".....that point being your first 30-40 lbs on your skinny ass that many of us had to put on, while using a scale daily (or hourly lol).
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    I personally pay far more attention to the mirror then the scale. As I mentioned at the beginning o this thread I have pretty good body composition. I have had a small amount of abdominal fat show up that hasn't been there in the past, but I guess that's part of getting older. So I figure weight is the best way to convey progress via text. But yes my goal is to add lean mass. F#€k what I weigh as long as I add goo weight and strength.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocktown View Post
    I personally pay far more attention to the mirror then the scale. As I mentioned at the beginning o this thread I have pretty good body composition. I have had a small amount of abdominal fat show up that hasn't been there in the past, but I guess that's part of getting older. So I figure weight is the best way to convey progress via text. But yes my goal is to add lean mass. F#€k what I weigh as long as I add goo weight and strength.
    That is the problem, you can't convey body composition on the internet (w/o pics that is)....but you can type out a weight and BF%....but damn, big boned guys weigh a lot more than small boned guys when they have identical musculature. Then the smaller boned guy is made to feel inadequate due to there being a 20 lb or more discrepancy in bone weight. Much of this game is keeping your BW in a certain zone, and changing body composition....or even maintaining what you got...very little time is spent actually gaining muscle, or we'd all look like Kai Green or something
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    Agreed. I'm 6'1" and 198. People are usually surprised when I tell them what I weight because they think I weigh more. I work construction, my weight can literally change 5lbs by the end of the day during the summer. Just from water weight. If you always worried about the scale you would drive yourself crazy. To me it's all about looking good and being strong as hell.
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    Ok maybe this was a newbie mistake.... I drank one cup of coffee this morning now my blood pressure is out of wack. Is it going to be like this the whole time or will my body adjust?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocktown View Post
    Ok maybe this was a newbie mistake.... I drank one cup of coffee this morning now my blood pressure is out of wack. Is it going to be like this the whole time or will my body adjust?
    Define "out of whack"
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    It felt high. I was kind of on the verge of a head rush if that makes sense. But it seems to of planed out now. Maybe I just can't have coffee, or need to wait a couple days to have coffee. Which sucks because I usually drink most of a pot every morning. Any insight would be helpful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocktown View Post
    It felt high. I was kind of on the verge of a head rush if that makes sense. But it seems to of planed out now. Maybe I just can't have coffee, or need to wait a couple days to have coffee. Which sucks because I usually drink most of a pot every morning. Any insight would be helpful.
    Kudos for keeping an eye out for symptoms but you need numbers to know that it's in fact high. A baseline bp before cycle(including after coffee) would be good in the future. If you don't have access to a bp cuff, you may have to drop by a pharmacy waiting area every so often or buy one. You will know when its dangerously high(headaches, bloody noses, pulse pounding so hard its waking you up when resting, etc) but again numbers tell the story. Genetics do play a part here, and I encourage anyone who's actually tested this to chime in, but celery seed and Hawthorne berries are helpful, but the only bp-lowering aid other than pharmaceutical for me is niacin(in NADH form) and L-arginine AKG. Again, I can state they have worked far better but think of the variables during my trials using different compounds... Stress, caffeine intake, different compounds, water weight, thyroid function, the list could go on and on. Find what works for you but you won't have much to go off without baseline and on-cycle BP's.
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    My blood pressure is normally great. 123/80. Last week. I never thought to check it after coffee, because its never been an issue. I have a pharmacy 1.5 blocks from my house. Going to stop by next time I leave the house. Thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocktown View Post
    My blood pressure is normally great. 123/80. Last week. I never thought to check it after coffee, because its never been an issue. I have a pharmacy 1.5 blocks from my house. Going to stop by next time I leave the house. Thanks.
    It's going to be higher on cycle. I won't do anything over 160 systolic or 85 diastolic. I will take further action at that point. Mine is usually where yours is now that I monitor it closely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthersby View Post
    It's going to be higher on cycle. I won't do anything over 160 systolic or 85 diastolic. I will take further action at that point. Mine is usually where yours is now that I monitor it closely.
    My parameters are a slight bit lower than yours....if I hit 150 and/or 85 I get concerned and pop another BP pill But I do get light headed with both low and high BP (mostly low BP), along with possible head rush effect.....the high BP is usually accompanied by a headache and some fuzzy long distance vision though (like the headache is making you squint to see clearly).
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    Hawthorne berry and celery seed extract are very effective at controlling Bp. Hawthorne takes 1-2 weeks to take effect. Celery seed starts working pretty much right off the bat. Cel makes cycle assist which contains both ingredients as well as cholesterol, and prostate protection and its pretty affordable. I usually preload this 2 weeks before any cycle makes a huge difference IMO.
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    I don't know why people say hawthorn takes a few weeks to take effect, every time I've used it I get drops in BP within the first few days right down to normal. I am using the extract, and its from a reputable company, so that might have something to do with it (maybe others are not using the extract or using some shyt brand).
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    Ok. Maybe I am over thinking this, but I need some advice on when to take my doses. I'm taking 30 a day. I take my first dose at 5:30 am (I walk out my door at 6 for work.) then I go to the gym at 5 so I take my next dose at 4:30 pm. Then I go to bed at 9 so I take my next dose at about 8. It seems like my doses aren't sprea out enough. Like unsaid maybe I'm over thinking it. Thank you for your advice.
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    Only thing I would change is taking pwo dose 1-2 hours prior which it sounds like you're just about doing depending on your commute time. I'd consider moving that dose to 40mg if your bp is under control...
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    Taking it an hour before bed is a fun one. It's normally not recommended to take within 4 hours or so of bed time as it can interfere with sleep.

    I always took mine at 6am, 12pm, 6pm. I realize it has an 8 hour half life, and there's 12 hours between the evening and the next morning dose, but you've still got plenty built up in your blood concentration to carry you through the night.

    I also dosed it at 40mg. so 2,1,1 was my daily dosing (I workout at 12:30pm).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthersby View Post
    Only thing I would change is taking pwo dose 1-2 hours prior which it sounds like you're just about doing depending on your commute time. I'd consider moving that dose to 40mg if your bp is under control...
    Thanks. Bp seems fine now. After I lifted it seems like everything went back to normal. Maybe it's all in my head. I appreciate all the advice.
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    Is it possible after just four days on I would already be feeling the effects in the gym? Yesterday I felt pretty unstoppable. Even if it was just placebo I'll pay good money for it. Lol. With this being my first cycle I was worried about how my body would react so I was planing on 4 weeks of 30 mg a day, but everything seems fine. In fact I feel great so I think I'm fixing to order another bottle and go 40 for either 5 or 6 weeks unless anybody with experience can give me a reason that I shouldn't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocktown View Post
    Is it possible after just four days on I would already be feeling the effects in the gym? Yesterday I felt pretty unstoppable. Even if it was just placebo I'll pay good money for it. Lol. With this being my first cycle I was worried about how my body would react so I was planing on 4 weeks of 30 mg a day, but everything seems fine. In fact I feel great so I think I'm fixing to order another bottle and go 40 for either 5 or 6 weeks unless anybody with experience can give me a reason that I shouldn't.
    No reason at all to not run 40 for 5 weeks. 6 weeks I would save for a later run and after you see how your liver enzymes are at 4-5 weeks on this cycle.(don't freak out they will be elevated, just post or pm results) And if you didn't see results quickly, pulsing orals wouldn't exist. I will argue till the day I die, you can notice/"feel" some orals faster than Test Prop.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthersby View Post
    No reason at all to not run 40 for 5 weeks. 6 weeks I would save for a later run and after you see how your liver enzymes are at 4-5 weeks on this cycle.(don't freak out they will be elevated, just post or pm results) And if you didn't see results quickly, pulsing orals wouldn't exist. I will argue till the day I die, you can notice/"feel" some orals faster than Test Prop.
    Will do. My liver enzymes always run a little high. The doc says not to worry about it. That some people's levels are just a little high. How long after cycle should I wait to get my physical?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocktown View Post

    Will do. My liver enzymes always run a little high. The doc says not to worry about it. That some people's levels are just a little high. How long after cycle should I wait to get my physical?
    Get it beginning week 4. Results by eow. Then see what you think about 1-2 more weeks, mainly for a CBC/CMP which will cover lipids, liver etc.. A few weeks after pct you could get a physical. I don't unless I cycle 10+ weeks.
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    I just say a physical because I get one free one every year with lab test from my insurance. I was going to use this freebie after this cycle anyways just to make sure I'm ok. So I should get two done? I guess I'll just have to pay my co-pay for one set. How do I go about telling my doc I need two sets of labs done?
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    Just get the physical after and run the epi 5 weeks max.
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    Just checked blood pressure 125/80. That was while I was walking around the store so I hadn't been at rest before taking it. So I am pretty content with it. The scale is showing I'm up 5 lbs. is that even possible this early in the game? I can't see it in the mirror, but I sure don't want to end up getting fat in the name of fitness if you know what I mean.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocktown View Post
    Just checked blood pressure 125/80. That was while I was walking around the store so I hadn't been at rest before taking it. So I am pretty content with it. The scale is showing I'm up 5 lbs. is that even possible this early in the game? I can't see it in the mirror, but I sure don't want to end up getting fat in the name of fitness if you know what I mean.
    125/75 is ideal for me....so that is damn close to perfect if you ask me. esp for being on epi.
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    I upped my dose to 40 mg a day. Everything seems to be going very well. A buddy just came back into town and gave me a bottle of mk-2866 (osterine). He said to add it in for the rest of my cycle. He's very experienced, but I don't know how safe he is. What do you guys think? He's had good results with it already.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocktown View Post
    I upped my dose to 40 mg a day. Everything seems to be going very well. A buddy just came back into town and gave me a bottle of mk-2866 (osterine). He said to add it in for the rest of my cycle. He's very experienced, but I don't know how safe he is. What do you guys think? He's had good results with it already.
    You should not use ostarine with the epi, save it for post-PCT. Ostarine is legit, but it may compete for the androgen receptor.....I've always used it solo. Its sort of a bad idea to use a SARM such as that with any anabolic, esp test.
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    So should I start it as soon as I'm done with my five weeks pct?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocktown View Post
    So should I start it as soon as I'm done with my five weeks pct?
    yeah sort of like a bridge or "inbetween cycles" thing....some take it ultra low dose in their actual PCT, but i would not suggest that for you. Better to use it after your PCT.
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    Great! Thanks.
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    Today is a rest day. It's hard to make myself take a rest day because I feel like I'm waiting my havoc, but obviously they are necessary. I added 10 lbs to my bench yesterday. So all in all I would say not bad for week #1
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocktown View Post
    Today is a rest day. It's hard to make myself take a rest day because I feel like I'm waiting my havoc, but obviously they are necessary. I added 10 lbs to my bench yesterday. So all in all I would say not bad for week #1
    Enjoy the ride. Love strength gains on Epi.
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    ^^ agreed could only push out 275 once before my cycle just did it 7 times today. About to start my fifth week Tuesday
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    Quote Originally Posted by traiford09 View Post
    ^^ agreed could only push out 275 once before my cycle just did it 7 times today. About to start my fifth week Tuesday
    That's great. I hope to make gains like that.
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