results from the FDA supplement tests for the BB.com Raid so far.

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Unfortunately this is a strawman argument... your comparative argument means nothing in todays political environment. The only reason alchohol is legal is because society demanded it, whereas joe down the street could give a **** less if steroids are legal.
    I concur.
    Practical reasoning does not apply to the modern government machine.
    Only dollars.
    If crack, blow, meth, and weed dealers paid enough of a regular sum to certain parties connected with the government, all those would be legal as well.
    Then again...
    "I don't want anything. I don't want anybody. That's the worst part. When the want goes, that's bad."
    (Doug Stanhope as Eddie on Louie)


  2. Quote Originally Posted by GuyverX View Post
    I concur.
    Practical reasoning does not apply to the modern government machine.
    Only dollars.
    If crack, blow, meth, and weed dealers paid enough of a regular sum to certain parties connected with the government, all those would be legal as well.
    Then again...
    There have been serious talks of legalizing marijuana and taxing it. They can't pinpoint underground/criminal money using GDP calculations but they can estimate it, and obviously it's a huge untapped amount of money.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    The FDA process to get a new drug approved is lengthy and expensive: to the tune of years and multiple-million dollars.
    I have actually heard 10 million, not sure that is accurate or not.

  4. stock up while you can
    the fda is making choices for us
    thats so unamerican

  5. Quote Originally Posted by nomoredex View Post
    stock up while you can
    the fda is making choices for us
    thats so unamerican

    Actually, it is SO American. Remember we live in a Republic (we choose representatives to make decisions on our behalf) NOT a Democracy. Big difference.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by SonicSWOLE View Post
    Actually, it is SO American. Remember we live in a Republic (we choose representatives to make decisions on our behalf) NOT a Democracy. Big difference.
    thanks mr.O

    lol, j/k.

    Either way, it is actally the USA, LLC. that is making the choices for us. Not our beloved house and senate. Thats just a cover.


  7. The Redefine Nutrition products listed in the tests have giving some good results to friends of mine. To bad some companies have now been shown to not have the ingredients they claimed. My post is late to this thread but I am just getting past my novice BB phase. Unfortunately this is the latest witch hunt of the past 6 to 8 years. I began working out when deployed to Iraq over a year ago and enjoy the benefits of being in shape.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Mikey851 View Post
    There have been serious talks of legalizing marijuana and taxing it. They can't pinpoint underground/criminal money using GDP calculations but they can estimate it, and obviously it's a huge untapped amount of money.

    Several states have marijuana taxes on production and/or sale. It does not make a seller legal but if the tax is not paid the person is also eligible to be charged with tax evasion at the state level... Nice to know an illegal product is taxed to generate more revenue and violations of the law...

  9. Quote Originally Posted by jherman08 View Post
    Are there more deaths/injuries/suicides relating to drug use
    -pills
    -alcohol
    -drunk driving
    -cigarettes
    -hardcore street drugs

    Than AAS/DS? I dont really get it? If the government can make billions off of a substance no matter how detrimental it is i think they will continue to allow it.
    They do not worry about anything else that is currently legal besides AAS/DS because the average person does not care about BB or fitness. We are seen as gym rats to be jealous of, hated or loathed. You are right huge amounts of money are made from these products so no one in government wants to slay the golden egg laying chicken... John Stossel had a great interview years ago about stupid thinking behind why people hate AAS/DS and how there is no true justification for this dislike. Of course the mainstream media never hyped the interview that was contrary to their "beliefs".

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Mikey851 View Post
    There have been serious talks of legalizing marijuana and taxing it. They can't pinpoint underground/criminal money using GDP calculations but they can estimate it, and obviously it's a huge untapped amount of money.
    Case and point: California; The Epic Failure

  11. Can't wait to see what the PH industry is left with when all this FDA crap finally settles...

  12. Quote Originally Posted by Kristofer68SS View Post
    thanks mr.O

    lol, j/k.

    Either way, it is actally the USA, LLC. that is making the choices for us. Not our beloved house and senate. Thats just a cover.

    I'm glad someone actually knows what the deal is. USA, LLC. has been running the show since the civil war ended. They make and break the rules as they see fit to make a buck (many a bux, actually).

    Alcohol was brought back not because the people wanted it so bad, but because the resulting black market didn't generate enough cash for the liquor companies as it previously did legally. the resulting blackmarket caused plenty of crime as the war on drugs does today as well. As great an idea it would be to legalize and regulate marijuana on the federal level (think about how many issues you could solve with revenue or products derived from even just non-psychoactive industrial hemp plants; oils, biofuels, foods, plastics, fibers, and on and on), it will never happen because it poses a serious threat to the establishment... that being the long existing alcohol and tobacco (were talkin the 1600's here) industries.

    Think about it this way; when joe shmoe the law abiding citizen comes home from work and can choose to kick up on the couch with either a pack of marb reds, a bottle of jack, or a 6pack, he's limited in his choices. add into the mix a finely twisted joint of government regulated sour diesel or some bubbakush, and the alc and tobac industries are gona take a huge **** in their draws. Why? because at the end of the day, tobacco causes cancer, alcohol is hepatoxic and as physically addicting as opiates and benzodiazepines, and thc is known to inhibit tumor growth... that's why. do the math... which seems like the healthier alternative.

    the war on drugs is a pathetic joke that can never and will never be won, just like the war on steroids, and just like the war on terror. I can guarantee you that if those in charge really truly wanted to eradicate drug use they would. this is the US, and those at the top can do whatever the sh*t they want. in fact, i'd be very surprised if there is not government involvement. Remember Oliver North and Iran-Contra guys? Ricky Ross? ringin any bells? Pre-9/11 afghan poppy production was at a near nothing. after we took over, production rose by nearly 100%, and today you can wayyy too easily find nearly 90% pure #4 heroin from coast to coast and for dirt f*cking cheap.

    sorry the post became so political but the last page of this thread got me heated for a second. the answer is not jailing nonviolent drug offenders and furthering the blackmarket and military-prison-industrial complex; the answer is education, harm reduction, and treatment. addiction IS a disease, and no doctor will tell you otherwise.

  13. I dont give a crap about any of the bickering, politics, or other bs. I just liked taking Havoc occasionally. I wish I had stocked up.

  14. EPI is still easily available.

    Crowbar

  15. so is everything else. google.com

  16. Well since RPN Havoc is discontinued I had to switch to something a little safer. Now I take 1 lip of Skoal mint dip, 2 Newport ciggs in between sets, and a litre of Smirnoff Vodka pre workout. Hope I feel better.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by CaponeCEO View Post
    Well since RPN Havoc is discontinued I had to switch to something a little safer. Now I take 1 lip of Skoal mint dip, 2 Newport ciggs in between sets, and a litre of Smirnoff Vodka pre workout. Hope I feel better.
    Lol, nice.

    Dont forget McPoison PWO.

  18. i got a bouddy who jugs down dbol with vodka real story
    ~ IRON LIVERô________ *[It's just advice man, that's all it is! You can take or do whatever the FCUK you wanna do!]

  19. Quote Originally Posted by CaponeCEO View Post
    Well since RPN Havoc is discontinued I had to switch to something a little safer. Now I take 1 lip of Skoal mint dip, 2 Newport ciggs in between sets, and a litre of Smirnoff Vodka pre workout. Hope I feel better.
    Nice contribution to the thread there turbo.
    The Historic PES Legend

  20. Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Nice contribution to the thread there turbo.
    I should have known this guy would have something to say. Havent you dug your hole deep enough "turbo"?

  21. I am waiting for my CEL M-Drol to arrive, I ordered a ton of it. P-plex too. Gonna eat em like candy and sail away into the sunset on my gigantic liver. No, not really, but a I do have alot of product on that list en route. Gettin' the M-drol for 21 bucks for 90 caps, why not?

  22. Someone might have said this already but it doesn't look like they even tested for epi.
  23. Unbreakable
    David Dunn's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by vdoe2008 View Post
    just curious - does anyone know what they are basing this warrant on actually? None of these substances (pplex,sdrol,tren xtreme) is illegal. Yeah, DEA wanted to put them on the scheduled list last year and they failed - congress never approved that, I guess they didn't demonstrate it without doubt that these are indeed anabolics. So what are they then using as a reason for this search ?
    108th CONGRESS
    2d Session

    S. 2195

    To amend the Controlled Substances Act to clarify the definition of anabolic steroids and to provide for research and education activities relating to steroids and steroid precursors.

    IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES

    March 11, 2004

    Mr. BIDEN (for himself, Mr. HATCH, Mr. GRASSLEY, Mr. HARKIN, Mr. STEVENS, Mr. MCCAIN, Mr. NELSON of Florida, Mrs. FEINSTEIN, Mr. ALLEN, and Ms. MURKOWSKI) introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on the Judiciary

    A BILL

    To amend the Controlled Substances Act to clarify the definition of anabolic steroids and to provide for research and education activities relating to steroids and steroid precursors.

    Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

    SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

    This Act may be cited as the `Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 2004'.

    SEC. 2. AMENDMENTS TO THE CONTROLLED SUBSTANCES ACT.

    (a) DEFINITIONS- Section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802) is amended--

    (1) in paragraph (41)--

    (A) by realigning the margin so as to align with paragraph (40); and

    (B) by striking subparagraph (A) and inserting the following:

    `(A) The term `anabolic steroid' means any drug or hormonal substance, chemically and pharmacologically related to testosterone (other than estrogens, progestins, corticosteroids, and dehydroepiandrosterone), and includes--

    `(i) androstanediol--

    `(I) 3b,17b-dihydroxy-5a-androstane; and

    `(II) 3a,17b-dihydroxy-5a-androstane;

    `(ii) androstanedione (5a-androstan-3,17-dione);

    `(iii) androstenediol--

    `(I) 1-androstenediol (3b,17b-dihydroxy-5a-androst-1-ene);

    `(II) 1-androstenediol (3a,17b-dihydroxy-5a-androst-1-ene);

    `(III) 4-androstenediol (3b,17b-dihydroxy-androst-4-ene); and

    `(IV) 5-androstenediol (3b,17b-dihydroxy-androst-5-ene);

    `(iv) androstenedione--

    `(I) 1-androstenedione ([5a]-androst-1-en-3,17-dione);

    `(II) 4-androstenedione (androst-4-en-3,17-dione); and

    `(III) 5-androstenedione (androst-5-en-3,17-dione);

    `(v) bolasterone (7a,17a-dimethyl-17b-hydroxyandrost-4-en-3-one);

    `(vi) boldenone (17b-hydroxyandrost-1,4,-diene-3-one);

    `(vii) calusterone (7b,17a-dimethyl-17b-hydroxyandrost-4-en-3-one);

    `(viii) clostebol (4-chloro-17b-hydroxyandrost-4-en-3-one);

    `(ix) dehydrochloromethyltestosteron e (4-chloro-17b-hydroxy-17a-methyl-androst-1,4-dien-3-one);

    `(x) *1-dihydrotestosterone (a.k.a. `1-testosterone') (17b-hydroxy-5a-androst-1-en-3-one);

    `(xi) 4-dihydrotestosterone (17b-hydroxy-androstan-3-one);

    `(xii) drostanolone (17b-hydroxy-2a-methyl-5a-androstan-3-one);

    `(xiii) ethylestrenol (17a-ethyl-17b-hydroxyestr-4-ene);

    `(xiv) fluoxymesterone (9-fluoro-17a-methyl-11b,17b-dihydroxyandrost-4-en-3-one);

    `(xv) formebolone (2-formyl-17a-methyl-11a,17b-dihydroxyandrost-1,4-dien-3-one);

    `(xvi) furazabol (17a-methyl-17b-hydroxyandrostano[2,3-c]-furazan);

    `(xvii) 13a-ethyl-17a-hydroxygon-4-en-3-one;

    `(xviii) 4-hydroxytestosterone (4,17b-dihydroxy-androst-4-en-3-one);

    `(xix) 4-hydroxy-19-nortestosterone (4,17b-dihydroxy-estr-4-en-3-one);

    `(xx) mestanolone (17a-methyl-17b-hydroxy-5a-androstan-3-one);

    `(xxi) mesterolone (1a-methyl-17b-hydroxy-[5a]-androstan-3-one);

    `(xxii) methandienone (17a-methyl-17b-hydroxyandrost-1,4-dien-3-one);

    `(xxiii) methandriol (17a-methyl-3b,17b-dihydroxyandrost-5-ene);

    `(xxiv) methenolone (1-methyl-17b-hydroxy-5a-androst-1-en-3-one);

    `(xxv) methyltestosterone (17a-methyl-17b-hydroxyandrost-4-en-3-one);

    `(xxvi) mibolerone (7a,17a-dimethyl-17b-hydroxyestr-4-en-3-one);

    `(xxvii) 17a-methyl-*1-dihydrotestosterone (17b-hydroxy-17a-methyl-5a-androst-1-en-3-one) (a.k.a. `17-a-methyl-1-testosterone');

    `(xxviii) nandrolone (17b-hydroxyestr-4-en-3-one);

    `(xxix) norandrostenediol--

    `(I) 19-nor-4-androstenediol (3b, 17b-dihydroxyestr-4-ene);

    `(II) 19-nor-4-androstenediol (3a, 17b-dihydroxyestr-4-ene);

    `(III) 19-nor-5-androstenediol (3b, 17b-dihydroxyestr-5-ene); and

    `(IV) 19-nor-5-androstenediol (3a, 17b-dihydroxyestr-5-ene);

    `(xxx) norandrostenedione--

    `(I) 19-nor-4-androstenedione (estr-4-en-3,17-dione); and

    `(II) 19-nor-5-androstenedione (estr-5-en-3,17-dione;

    `(xxxi) norbolethone (13b,17a-diethyl-17b-hydroxygon-4-en-3-one);

    `(xxxii) norclostebol (4-chloro-17b-hydroxyestr-4-en-3-one);

    `(xxxiii) norethandrolone (17a-ethyl-17b-hydroxyestr-4-en-3-one);

    `(xxxiv) oxandrolone (17a-methyl-17b-hydroxy-2-oxa-[5a]-androstan-3-one);

    `(xxxv) oxymesterone (17a-methyl-4,17b-dihydroxyandrost-4-en-3-one);

    `(xxxvi) oxymetholone (17a-methyl-2-hydroxymethylene-17b-hydroxy-[5a]-androstan-3-one);

    `(xxxvii) stanozolol (17a-methyl-17b-hydroxy-[5a]-androst-2-eno[3,2-c]-pyrazole);

    `(xxxviii) stenbolone (17b-hydroxy-2-methyl-[5a]-androst-1-en-3-one);

    `(xxxix) testolactone (13-hydroxy-3-oxo-13,17-secoandrosta-1,4-dien-17-oic acid lactone);

    `(xl) testosterone (17b-hydroxyandrost-4-en-3-one);

    `(xli) tetrahydrogestrinone (13b,17a-diethyl-17b-hydroxygon-4,9,11-trien-3-one);

    `(xlii) trenbolone (17b-hydroxyestr-4,9,11-trien-3-one); and

    `(xliii) any salt, ester, or ether of a drug or substance described in this paragraph.'; and

    (2) in paragraph (44), by inserting `anabolic steroids,' after `marihuana,'.

    (b) AUTHORITY AND CRITERIA FOR CLASSIFICATION- Section 201(g) of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 811(g)) is amended--

    (1) in paragraph (1), by striking `substance from a schedule if such substance' and inserting `drug which contains a controlled substance from the application of titles II and III of the Comprehensive Drug Abuse Prevention and Control Act (21 U.S.C. 802 et seq.) if such drug'; and

    (2) in paragraph (3), by adding at the end the following:

    `(C) Upon the recommendation of the Secretary of Health and Human Services, a compound, mixture, or preparation which contains any anabolic steroid, which is intended for administration to a human being or an animal, and which, because of its concentration, preparation, formulation or delivery system, does not present any significant potential for abuse.'.

    (c) ANABOLIC STEROIDS CONTROL ACT- Section 1903 of the Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990 (Public Law 101-647) is amended--

    (1) by striking subsection (a); and

    (2) by redesignating subsections (b) and (c) as subsections (a) and (b), respectively.

    SEC. 3. SENTENCING COMMISSION GUIDELINES.

    The United States Sentencing Commission shall--

    (1) review the Federal sentencing guidelines with respect to offenses involving anabolic steroids;

    (2) consider amending the Federal sentencing guidelines to provide for increased penalties with respect to offenses involving anabolic steroids in a manner that reflects the seriousness of such offenses and the need to deter anabolic steroid trafficking and use; and

    (3) take such other action that the Commission considers necessary to carry out this section.

    SEC. 4. PREVENTION AND EDUCATION PROGRAMS.

    (a) IN GENERAL- The Secretary of Health and Human Services (referred to in this Act as the `Secretary') shall award grants to public and nonprofit private entities to enable such entities to carry out science-based education programs in elementary and secondary schools to highlight the harmful effects of anabolic steroids.

    (b) ELIGIBILITY-

    (1) APPLICATION- To be eligible for grants under subsection (a), an entity shall prepare and submit to the Secretary an application at such time, in such manner, and containing such information as the Secretary may require.

    (2) PREFERENCE- In awarding grants under subsection (a), the Secretary shall give preference to applicants that intend to use grant funds to carry out programs based on--

    (A) the Athletes Training and Learning to Avoid Steroids program;

    (B) the Athletes Targeting Healthy Exercise and Nutrition Alternatives program; and

    (C) other programs determined to be effective by the National Institute on Drug Abuse.

    (c) USE OF FUNDS- Amounts received under a grant under subsection (a) shall be used primarily for education programs that will directly communicate with teachers, principals, coaches, as well as elementary and secondary school children concerning the harmful effects of anabolic steroids.

    (d) AUTHORIZATION OF APPROPRIATIONS- There is authorized to be appropriated to carry out this section, $15,000,000 for each of fiscal years 2005 through 2010.

    SEC. 5. NATIONAL SURVEY ON DRUG USE AND HEALTH.

    (a) IN GENERAL- The Secretary of Health and Human Services shall ensure that the National Survey on Drug Use and Health includes questions concerning the use of anabolic steroids.

    (b) AUTHORIZATION OF APPROPRIATIONS- There is authorized to be appropriated to carry out this section, $1,000,000 for each of fiscal years 2005 through 2010.

    END
    What far too many fail to get is that manipulating nomenclature or moving a carbon molecule to change the chemical name does not change the fact that these are steroids and controlled substances. Legislature has been put in place that states that steroid manufacture and sale is illegal. Any company that does so is not a nutritional supplement company or manufacturer but rather an illegal steroid manufacturer and distributor.

  24. This is an interesting case. These compounds wouldn't seem to fit the description of dietary supplements. However, whether they are illegal "anabolic steroids" according to current legislation looks like a matter of contention. This is why the FDA has been more the active branch of enforcement as opposed to the DEA. I realize that the DEA has probably done some investigation but they haven't been as active as they would be if this matter involved the trafficing and sale of explicitly scheduled substances. According to the current legislation "anabolic steroids" are defined as drugs or hormonal substances chemically "and" pharmacoligically related to testosterone. What exactly does this mean? Ask any John or Jane Doe and you might get one answer, ask a chemist and you'll likely get another. A chemist knows that even changing one atom can completely change the chemical and pharmacological properties of a molecule. I don't know much at all about anabolic drugs, but I gather that there are currently some that are though to have mechanisms of action and chemical properties different from testosterone. Unlike testosterone, some are known to have very low or even undetectable affinity for the androgen receptor and some have rather high affinity for progestin receptors. If these weren't drugs that were already exhaustively investigated and ultimately scheduled by the DEA, could you say with certainty that they were chemically and pharmacologically related to testosterone? If an unscheduled compound has high affinity for progestin receptors, couldn't we also call it a progestin, thus making it exempt? My point is that the legal definition of an anabolic steroid is not straight forward and requires closer analysis by the responsible authorities in conjunction with the appropriate experts. If these substances were undoubtedly illegal and convictions were a sure thing, there would be many more companies facing arrest and subsequent prosecution. As it stands, it appears that those possibly facing charges were selling products which were reportedly found to contain already scheduled substances such as adrostenedione.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by jason79 View Post
    This is an interesting case. These compounds wouldn't seem to fit the description of dietary supplements. However, whether they are illegal "anabolic steroids" according to current legislation looks like a matter of contention. This is why the FDA has been more the active branch of enforcement as opposed to the DEA. I realize that the DEA has probably done some investigation but they haven't been as active as they would be if this matter involved the trafficing and sale of explicitly scheduled substances. According to the current legislation "anabolic steroids" are defined as drugs or hormonal substances chemically "and" pharmacoligically related to testosterone. What exactly does this mean? Ask any John or Jane Doe and you might get one answer, ask a chemist and you'll likely get another. A chemist knows that even changing one atom can completely change the chemical and pharmacological properties of a molecule. I don't know much at all about anabolic drugs, but I gather that there are currently some that are though to have mechanisms of action and chemical properties different from testosterone. Unlike testosterone, some are known to have very low or even undetectable affinity for the androgen receptor and some have rather high affinity for progestin receptors. If these weren't drugs that were already exhaustively investigated and ultimately scheduled by the DEA, could you say with certainty that they were chemically and pharmacologically related to testosterone? If an unscheduled compound has high affinity for progestin receptors, couldn't we also call it a progestin, thus making it exempt? My point is that the legal definition of an anabolic steroid is not straight forward and requires closer analysis by the responsible authorities in conjunction with the appropriate experts. If these substances were undoubtedly illegal and convictions were a sure thing, there would be many more companies facing arrest and subsequent prosecution. As it stands, it appears that those possibly facing charges were selling products which were reportedly found to contain already scheduled substances such as adrostenedione.
    That's all fine and dandy, but all drugs need FDA approval in order to be sold. So, even if you assume that they aren't "illegal" they are still "unapproved".

    That's probably why the FDA is involved and not the DEA.
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