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    He said it was the same or worse this morning. Said he felt like he was coming out of a coma. Drinks over a gallon of water a day and all he wants to do is sleep. He wants to stop taking them because of the grauginess, but I told him to keep going. He is pounding coffee to no avail.

    I or him don't know what to do. He said no outside factors have changed. How late should he take them in the evening? He takes his last 2 pills 30 mins before bed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattbaseball View Post
    He said it was the same or worse this morning. Said he felt like he was coming out of a coma. Drinks over a gallon of water a day and all he wants to do is sleep. He wants to stop taking them because of the grauginess, but I told him to keep going. He is pounding coffee to no avail.

    I or him don't know what to do. He said no outside factors have changed. How late should he take them in the evening? He takes his last 2 pills 30 mins before bed.
    Yah try like 6pm, I wouldn't wait till bed time. I would go 6 am and 6pm for dosing... that may make a difference.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattbaseball View Post
    He said it was the same or worse this morning. Said he felt like he was coming out of a coma. Drinks over a gallon of water a day and all he wants to do is sleep. He wants to stop taking them because of the grauginess, but I told him to keep going. He is pounding coffee to no avail.

    I or him don't know what to do. He said no outside factors have changed. How late should he take them in the evening? He takes his last 2 pills 30 mins before bed.
    I gave you my Cell # in a PM, have him call me if he needs to, because I'm telling you this is way strange, baffling???
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottyDoc View Post
    I gave you my Cell # in a PM, have him call me if he needs to, because I'm telling you this is way strange, baffling???
    I will text him first thing in the morning and let him know. Curious to see how he feels in the morning after taking it a little earlier in the evening.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattbaseball View Post
    I will text him first thing in the morning and let him know. Curious to see how he feels in the morning after taking it a little earlier in the evening.
    I think it will help him quite a bit. I would have thought taking a PH so close to bed might cause problems with sleeping but morning groginess is a bit perplexing. I know that some compounds cause lethargy... not this one in particular but everyone is different. Stranger things have happened, oh well I think taking it early in the evening wil help like I said.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    I think it will help him quite a bit. I would have thought taking a PH so close to bed might cause problems with sleeping but morning groginess is a bit perplexing. I know that some compounds cause lethargy... not this one in particular but everyone is different. Stranger things have happened, oh well I think taking it early in the evening wil help like I said.
    He took it 3 hours before bed this morning and said this morning was alot better. He took yesterday off from the gym so he will hit it real hard today and see how he feels tomorrow.

    It might have been him taking it so close to bed, hopefully time will tell.

    Thanks again for the help DW and Scotty. Keep yall posted
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattbaseball View Post
    He took it 3 hours before bed this morning and said this morning was alot better. He took yesterday off from the gym so he will hit it real hard today and see how he feels tomorrow.

    It might have been him taking it so close to bed, hopefully time will tell.

    Thanks again for the help DW and Scotty. Keep yall posted
    That is a fuggin relief lol, I never tried taking a PH so close to bedtime, 6pm is the latest for me as most of them will interfere with getting a good nights sleep. I would suggest G8 which would normally be a good choice on cycle but if this situation has righted itself then lets leave it the fug alone
    Mind and Muscle Board Representative I am not a physician and any advice is solely based on personal experience with various products
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    That is a fuggin relief lol, I never tried taking a PH so close to bedtime, 6pm is the latest for me as most of them will interfere with getting a good nights sleep. I would suggest G8 which would normally be a good choice on cycle but if this situation has righted itself then lets leave it the fug alone
    I agree because with our 3 others 6 bottles on the way it had me worried. At least I know now for my cycle

    I workout at 5:30 am so I don't have to worry because I can take it anytime in the evening
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    That is a fuggin relief lol, I never tried taking a PH so close to bedtime, 6pm is the latest for me as most of them will interfere with getting a good nights sleep. I would suggest G8 which would normally be a good choice on cycle but if this situation has righted itself then lets leave it the fug alone
    ^^^ I Concur ^^^
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    Experts rate the best and worst in body-fat measurement devices...


    By Jeanie Lerche Davis
    WebMD Weight Loss Clinic - Feature
    Reviewed By Kathleen Zelman, MPH, RD, LD



    Trying to get in shape? Then don't depend on your bathroom scales. To get the most accurate measure of your progress, experts say, you need to track your body fat as well as your weight. "Most people focus only on losing weight, not on the fat," Cedric X. Bryant, PhD, chief exercise physiologist with the American Council on Exercise, tells WebMD.


    "Preserving lean tissue and losing body fat -- that's what you need to strive for," Bryant says. "The only way to know how you're doing is through some form of body-composition assessment." You know about the old standard measuring tools, like the body mass index (BMI) and the tape measure. And thanks to today's technology wizards, some very good new devices are available to measure your body fat. To learn which are worth your time and money, WebMD got ratings from Bryant and from two more top exercise physiologists: Megan McCrory, PhD, an energy metabolism scientist with the Jean Mayer USDA Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging at Tufts University in Boston; and Len Kravitz, PhD, senior exercise physiologist for IDEA Health and Fitness Association.


    1) The BMI Test

    This is a simple calculation, using the most basic tools -- your height and weight. Plug these numbers into a BMI calculator to learn whether you are obese, overweight, or normal weight. The BMI was developed using large, population-based studies. Though it doesn't address percentage of body fat or muscle, it helps health care professionals quickly assess which patients may be at risk of health problems linked to excess weight.

    Price: None.
    The verdict: Free and readily available; good for assessing health risks but doesn't measure body-fat percentage. If you are short, or very muscular, results tend to be less accurate.
    "It's a good starting point, a really good way to get a basic estimate of whether you are overweight or not," says Bryant. "BMI tends to correlate pretty closely with health risks associated with being overweight or obese."
    The experts' grade: D. "The BMI doesn't give you body fat measurement," says McCrory. "But if gives an excellent BMI measurement!"


    2) "Bioelectrical impedance analysis" has been added to traditional bathroom scales. The scales send a harmless electrical current up through your body to "read" the amount of fat body mass and lean body mass -- calculating your percentage of body fat.

    Price: $50 to $100 per scale.
    The verdict: Convenient, but not always the most accurate.
    "The problem is, these devices are very sensitive to hydration -- how much fluid is in your body," Bryant tells WebMD. So it's important to strictly follow the guidelines for weighing yourself -- time of day, fluid and food intake. Even your menstrual cycle affects this reading. "However, with all this factored in, the scales are an easy, at-home way to keep track of your weight and fat-loss progress."
    There also are handheld versions that use this same technology. Just remember: You get what you pay for. Higher price equals greater accuracy.
    Grade: C+. "Even though they may not be accurate, it may be good for tracking changes with a diet and exercise program," says McCrory. "Just keep in mind that the scales might be off by 5%, plus or minus. Follow the instructions carefully. Taking a shower beforehand really makes the reading inaccurate!"

    3) DEXA Scanning

    DEXA is "dual energy X-ray absorpitometry" -- the same imaging technology doctors use to measure bone density to determine osteoporosis risk, explains Bryant. During the test, you lie on an X-ray table for about 10 minutes while the scanner measures your body fat, muscle, and bone mineral density.

    Price: $200 to $300
    The verdict: Looking good.
    DEXA is "an emerging technique that holds a lot of promise," Bryant tells WebMD. "It allows us to determine the amount of body fat overall, and to identify fat deposits in specific body regions. That's very important, because stores of body fat can be much more indicative of disease risk." For example, extra abdominal fat increases the risk of heart disease, cancer, and type 2 diabetes.
    Primary-care doctors, physical therapists, and health clubs will soon be offering DEXA scanning to assess body fat, Bryant tells WebMD. "If your BMI says you're in the obese category and you have a strong family history of heart disease and diabetes, it might behoove you to get more precise assessment of body composition," says Bryant.
    Grade: A. "It's one of the most accurate methods out there," says McCrory. "I haven't heard any news about DEXA in health clubs. But if you have the opportunity to be tested by DEXA, go for it." She warns, however, that obese people may have a hard time lying on the narrow tables used for this test.
    It's "quite noninvasive," says Kravitz. "Very good technique."


    4) Hydrodensitometry testing, this involves getting into a tank filled with water. Based on the amount of water you displace, your body density and body fat can be calculated.

    "This test is considered the gold standard, the most accurate assessment technique," Bryant tells WebMD. Universities use this primarily with athletes, and will likely let you try it, too -- for a small fee.
    Price: $25 to $75 per test.
    The verdict: "It's a very accurate way to measure body fat," says Bryant. But going into the water can be a problem. Some find the procedure "disconcerting."
    Grade: B-. Inconvenience is a big issue here, agrees McCrory. "My guess is that underwater testing will be a 'has been' in a few years."


    5) Bod Pod

    The Bod Pod is a new tool that relies on air displacement to determine body fat, says Bryant. There's no submersion; you don't get wet. But you have to get into the Bod Pod chamber, be very still, control your breath � all factors that can affect the results. Your hydration level before the test can also affect results. "When all these are controlled pretty well, you'll get a body fat calculation that's within 3% to 4% accurate � not as high as one might expect," Bryant says.
    Price: $40 to $65 per test.
    The verdict: McCrory says she believes it may be the way of the future, though Bryant notes that it needs some refinement.
    Grade: A. "It's much easier and more convenient than underwater weighing," says McCrory. "It is about as accurate and reliable as DEXA, is much cheaper, and is becoming more widely available."

    6) The Tape Measure

    It's one of the oldest "obesity tests" known to mankind. However, waist circumference in this context "is not defined as a seamstress would," says Bryant. "This is taken at the belly button level."
    Men with measurements higher than 40, or women with waist measurements higher than 35, are considered obese, he says.
    Price: None.
    The verdict: This is a basic indicator of a body fat problem, says Bryant. "It's a good technique," says Kravitz.
    Grade: A. Girth measurement is "accurate and reliable" for assessing your risk of chronic diseases like diabetes, heart disease, stroke, and cancer, says McCrory. Quite simply: The bigger the girth, the bigger the risk. "However, some new research is coming out suggesting that there is more risk than previously thought at even lower risk circumferences."


    7) Skinfold Calipers

    Health clubs offer this test; it's the most widely used method for measuring body fat, says Bryant. Basically, it's a "pinch" test using a measuring device at several points on the body, like thighs, hips, and upper arm.
    Price: $20 to $40 per test.
    The verdict: Much depends on the skills of the person giving you the test. "The skinfold test can be reasonably accurate," Bryant tells WebMD. "But if the tester isn't experienced, or if they're using cheapo plastic calipers, take it with a grain of salt. It will be terribly unreliable."
    Grade: D. "These are rarely done correctly," says McCrory. "The technician usually does not grab enough fat so the result is usually a big underestimate of body fat. It's also difficult to grab the fat consistently."

    8) Infrared Light Measuring

    Infrared light measuring is an inexpensive way to measure body fat with a soil-analysis-type device that agronomists use, Bryant explains.
    Here's what happens: A probe is placed on a body site -- the biceps, for instance -- sending an infrared light ray through both fat and muscle. Your height, weight, sex, age, frame size, and activity level are factored in. The final number is a "rough estimate" of your body fat percentage, says Bryant.
    Price: $25 to $50 per test.
    The verdict: "It hasn't proven to be terribly accurate," Bryant tells WebMD.
    Grade: F. Don't waste your time or money, says McCrory.

    9) Height/Weight Charts

    These are the simple height-vs.-weight tables used for years by many insurance companies. But the experts say they just don't work very well, even if they take body frame and sex into account.
    Price: None.
    The verdict: "These charts have significant limitations," says Bryant. "They really aren't measuring fat-to-lean tissue. They are based on a limited sample of the population and can be misleading."
    Grade: F. "These do nothing to help us understand body composition," Kravitz says.


    Originally published March 19, 2004
    Medically updated June 9, 2005.
    SOURCES: Cedric X. Bryant, PhD, chief exercise physiologist, American Council on Exercise. Megan McCrory, PhD, energy metabolism scientist, Jean Mayer USDA Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging, Tufts University, Boston. Len Kravitz, PhD, senior exercise physiologist, IDEA.
    ©1996-2005 WebMD Inc. All rights reserved.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottyDoc View Post
    Experts rate the best and worst in body-fat measurement devices...


    By Jeanie Lerche Davis
    WebMD Weight Loss Clinic - Feature
    Reviewed By Kathleen Zelman, MPH, RD, LD



    Trying to get in shape? Then don't depend on your bathroom scales. To get the most accurate measure of your progress, experts say, you need to track your body fat as well as your weight. "Most people focus only on losing weight, not on the fat," Cedric X. Bryant, PhD, chief exercise physiologist with the American Council on Exercise, tells WebMD.


    "Preserving lean tissue and losing body fat -- that's what you need to strive for," Bryant says. "The only way to know how you're doing is through some form of body-composition assessment." You know about the old standard measuring tools, like the body mass index (BMI) and the tape measure. And thanks to today's technology wizards, some very good new devices are available to measure your body fat. To learn which are worth your time and money, WebMD got ratings from Bryant and from two more top exercise physiologists: Megan McCrory, PhD, an energy metabolism scientist with the Jean Mayer USDA Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging at Tufts University in Boston; and Len Kravitz, PhD, senior exercise physiologist for IDEA Health and Fitness Association.


    1) The BMI Test

    This is a simple calculation, using the most basic tools -- your height and weight. Plug these numbers into a BMI calculator to learn whether you are obese, overweight, or normal weight. The BMI was developed using large, population-based studies. Though it doesn't address percentage of body fat or muscle, it helps health care professionals quickly assess which patients may be at risk of health problems linked to excess weight.

    Price: None.
    The verdict: Free and readily available; good for assessing health risks but doesn't measure body-fat percentage. If you are short, or very muscular, results tend to be less accurate.
    "It's a good starting point, a really good way to get a basic estimate of whether you are overweight or not," says Bryant. "BMI tends to correlate pretty closely with health risks associated with being overweight or obese."
    The experts' grade: D. "The BMI doesn't give you body fat measurement," says McCrory. "But if gives an excellent BMI measurement!"


    2) "Bioelectrical impedance analysis" has been added to traditional bathroom scales. The scales send a harmless electrical current up through your body to "read" the amount of fat body mass and lean body mass -- calculating your percentage of body fat.

    Price: $50 to $100 per scale.
    The verdict: Convenient, but not always the most accurate.
    "The problem is, these devices are very sensitive to hydration -- how much fluid is in your body," Bryant tells WebMD. So it's important to strictly follow the guidelines for weighing yourself -- time of day, fluid and food intake. Even your menstrual cycle affects this reading. "However, with all this factored in, the scales are an easy, at-home way to keep track of your weight and fat-loss progress."
    There also are handheld versions that use this same technology. Just remember: You get what you pay for. Higher price equals greater accuracy.
    Grade: C+. "Even though they may not be accurate, it may be good for tracking changes with a diet and exercise program," says McCrory. "Just keep in mind that the scales might be off by 5%, plus or minus. Follow the instructions carefully. Taking a shower beforehand really makes the reading inaccurate!"

    3) DEXA Scanning

    DEXA is "dual energy X-ray absorpitometry" -- the same imaging technology doctors use to measure bone density to determine osteoporosis risk, explains Bryant. During the test, you lie on an X-ray table for about 10 minutes while the scanner measures your body fat, muscle, and bone mineral density.

    Price: $200 to $300
    The verdict: Looking good.
    DEXA is "an emerging technique that holds a lot of promise," Bryant tells WebMD. "It allows us to determine the amount of body fat overall, and to identify fat deposits in specific body regions. That's very important, because stores of body fat can be much more indicative of disease risk." For example, extra abdominal fat increases the risk of heart disease, cancer, and type 2 diabetes.
    Primary-care doctors, physical therapists, and health clubs will soon be offering DEXA scanning to assess body fat, Bryant tells WebMD. "If your BMI says you're in the obese category and you have a strong family history of heart disease and diabetes, it might behoove you to get more precise assessment of body composition," says Bryant.
    Grade: A. "It's one of the most accurate methods out there," says McCrory. "I haven't heard any news about DEXA in health clubs. But if you have the opportunity to be tested by DEXA, go for it." She warns, however, that obese people may have a hard time lying on the narrow tables used for this test.
    It's "quite noninvasive," says Kravitz. "Very good technique."


    4) Hydrodensitometry testing, this involves getting into a tank filled with water. Based on the amount of water you displace, your body density and body fat can be calculated.

    "This test is considered the gold standard, the most accurate assessment technique," Bryant tells WebMD. Universities use this primarily with athletes, and will likely let you try it, too -- for a small fee.
    Price: $25 to $75 per test.
    The verdict: "It's a very accurate way to measure body fat," says Bryant. But going into the water can be a problem. Some find the procedure "disconcerting."
    Grade: B-. Inconvenience is a big issue here, agrees McCrory. "My guess is that underwater testing will be a 'has been' in a few years."


    5) Bod Pod

    The Bod Pod is a new tool that relies on air displacement to determine body fat, says Bryant. There's no submersion; you don't get wet. But you have to get into the Bod Pod chamber, be very still, control your breath � all factors that can affect the results. Your hydration level before the test can also affect results. "When all these are controlled pretty well, you'll get a body fat calculation that's within 3% to 4% accurate � not as high as one might expect," Bryant says.
    Price: $40 to $65 per test.
    The verdict: McCrory says she believes it may be the way of the future, though Bryant notes that it needs some refinement.
    Grade: A. "It's much easier and more convenient than underwater weighing," says McCrory. "It is about as accurate and reliable as DEXA, is much cheaper, and is becoming more widely available."

    6) The Tape Measure

    It's one of the oldest "obesity tests" known to mankind. However, waist circumference in this context "is not defined as a seamstress would," says Bryant. "This is taken at the belly button level."
    Men with measurements higher than 40, or women with waist measurements higher than 35, are considered obese, he says.
    Price: None.
    The verdict: This is a basic indicator of a body fat problem, says Bryant. "It's a good technique," says Kravitz.
    Grade: A. Girth measurement is "accurate and reliable" for assessing your risk of chronic diseases like diabetes, heart disease, stroke, and cancer, says McCrory. Quite simply: The bigger the girth, the bigger the risk. "However, some new research is coming out suggesting that there is more risk than previously thought at even lower risk circumferences."


    7) Skinfold Calipers

    Health clubs offer this test; it's the most widely used method for measuring body fat, says Bryant. Basically, it's a "pinch" test using a measuring device at several points on the body, like thighs, hips, and upper arm.
    Price: $20 to $40 per test.
    The verdict: Much depends on the skills of the person giving you the test. "The skinfold test can be reasonably accurate," Bryant tells WebMD. "But if the tester isn't experienced, or if they're using cheapo plastic calipers, take it with a grain of salt. It will be terribly unreliable."
    Grade: D. "These are rarely done correctly," says McCrory. "The technician usually does not grab enough fat so the result is usually a big underestimate of body fat. It's also difficult to grab the fat consistently."

    8) Infrared Light Measuring

    Infrared light measuring is an inexpensive way to measure body fat with a soil-analysis-type device that agronomists use, Bryant explains.
    Here's what happens: A probe is placed on a body site -- the biceps, for instance -- sending an infrared light ray through both fat and muscle. Your height, weight, sex, age, frame size, and activity level are factored in. The final number is a "rough estimate" of your body fat percentage, says Bryant.
    Price: $25 to $50 per test.
    The verdict: "It hasn't proven to be terribly accurate," Bryant tells WebMD.
    Grade: F. Don't waste your time or money, says McCrory.

    9) Height/Weight Charts

    These are the simple height-vs.-weight tables used for years by many insurance companies. But the experts say they just don't work very well, even if they take body frame and sex into account.
    Price: None.
    The verdict: "These charts have significant limitations," says Bryant. "They really aren't measuring fat-to-lean tissue. They are based on a limited sample of the population and can be misleading."
    Grade: F. "These do nothing to help us understand body composition," Kravitz says.


    Originally published March 19, 2004
    Medically updated June 9, 2005.
    SOURCES: Cedric X. Bryant, PhD, chief exercise physiologist, American Council on Exercise. Megan McCrory, PhD, energy metabolism scientist, Jean Mayer USDA Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging, Tufts University, Boston. Len Kravitz, PhD, senior exercise physiologist, IDEA.
    ©1996-2005 WebMD Inc. All rights reserved.
    Or you could bet pics done and have use tell you for free lol .. we are closer than some of those methods I bet.
    Mind and Muscle Board Representative I am not a physician and any advice is solely based on personal experience with various products
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    13
    Vol. 6, Suppl. 2
    Copyright © 2006 by the Society for Biology of Reproduction
    Effects of dietary fat on androgen secretion and metabolism
    Joanna Gromadzka-Ostrowska
    1
    Department of Dietetics, Faculty of Human Nutrition and Consumer Sciences, Warsaw Agricultural University, Poland
    Received: 10 October 2005; accepted: 10 July 2006
    SUMMARY
    In humans and animals, food composition, especially dietary fat, affects androgen secretion and metabolism. On the other hand, disturbances of sex steroid metabolism play an important role in the etiology of hormone-related cancers. In this report the roles of dietary fat, its quantity, fatty acid composition and feeding period on androgens metabolism was described. In conclusion, it should be stated that the amount of dietary fat, and its composition, (i.e. the content of individual fatty acids and/or their groups), as well as the period during which the nutrient is fed to animals affect significantlythesecretionand metabolism of androgens. Reproductive Biology 2006 6 Suppl. 2:13–20.
    Key words: androgens, dietary fat, dietary fatty acids, prostate
    INTRODUCTION
    Epidemiological studies indicate that androgens and/or other factors including diet and dietary fat content play an important role in prostate carcinogenesis [1, 8, 12]. It is of interest that dietary fat seems to significantlyinfluence
    1Address for correspondence: Warsaw Agricultural University, Faculty of Human Nutrition and Consuming Sciences, Department of Dietetic, Nowoursynowska 159C, 02-776 Warsaw, Poland, e-mail: joanna_gromadzka_ostrowska@sgg w.pl
    14
    the systemic turnover of androgens [10, 11]. In addition to the amount of fat in the diet, androgen secretion and metabolism are influencedbyfatcomposition, especially the presence of some fatty acids in dietary fat.
    DIETARY FAT QUANTITY
    Results of in vivo and in vitro studies revealed that the amount of dietary fat is particularly important factor affecting androgen secretion. In men, a fat-rich meal results in a prolonged reduction in total and free testosterone (T) plasma levels [30]. In rats high fat food causes an increase in total and unbound plasma T levels [3], a decrease in sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) level [14] and inhibition of aromatase activity in testes [5]. Conversely, restrictions of fat consumption in the latter species lead to a decrease in plasma level of T [10] and other androgens [31]. Results of our study (fig.1)alsoshowedthat
    Dietary fat and androgens
    Figure 1.
    Plasma testosterone concentration in male rats (n=21) fed diet containing different levels of rapeseed oil during 6 weeks (mean ± SEM). The means were compared by one-way ANOVA followed by LSD test. Bars with different superscipts are significantly(p≤0.05)different .
    15
    the amount of dietary fat influencesplasmaTconcentration inmaleratsfeda diet containing different levels of rapeseed oil for six weeks. Significantlyhigher T concentrations were observed in animals fed high fat diet (20% w/w) compared to those fed a lower fat diet (5 or 10%). These data confirmedresultsobtained by other authors. Moreover, Meikle et al. [17] demonstrated in mice that low fat containing meal reduces T concentration without affecting LH. This indicates that fatty acids may directly affect gonadal T production.
    DIETARY FAT COMPOSITION
    Fatty acids are components of the phospholipid layer of cell membranes and may affect the membrane property and interactions between membrane components [25]. Therefore, fatty acids may exert an effect on protein transport, membrane receptors and activities of membrane-related enzymes. Dietary fatty acids may influencethegonadalsynthesisof Tatthe level of cell membrane. In rodents, changes in lipid composition of the cell membrane may affect the binding of LH to LH receptor, activation of the adenyl cyclase system [28] and steroidogenic enzyme activities in the testes [17].
    Free fatty acids affect the binding of sex hormone by plasma proteins [24]. Therefore, they are important regulators of hormone bioavailability for tissues [19]. Saturated fatty acids (SFAs) with short-chain molecules (C8-C12) and polysaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) are more effective inhibitors of androgens binding by SHGB than long-chain saturated or monounsaturated fatty acids (MUFAs; [29]). The mechanism of such action is probably associated with the higher affinityofSFAstothebindingprot eincompared to that of steroids [32]. Moreover, contrary to the saturated acids (palmitic, stearic and arachidonic), the mono- and polyunsaturated fatty acids (oleic, linoleic and linolenic) increase the association constant of nonspecificTbindingbyplasmaalb umin [4].
    The metabolism and synthesis of androgens seem to be particularly affected by the Ω-3 (α-linolenic, eicosapentanoic, docosahexaenoic fatty acids) and Ω-6 (γ-linolenic, linoleic, arachidonic, docosapentaenoic fatty
    Gromadzka-Ostrowska
    16
    acids) families of PUFAs. The Ω-3 PUFAs reduce the number of androgen receptors (AR), decrease total T level in plasma [20, 22, 27] and inhibit 5α-reductase activity [15, 21] in men and rats.
    On the other hand, it was found that the Ω-6 PUFAs stimulate T synthesis in Leydig cells [26] and 17β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (17βHSD) activity in rat testes [16] as well as increase the androgen-AR binding in the human prostate [2].
    The influenceofdietaryfatcompositi ononthegeneexpressionandenzyme activity involved in the metabolism of androgens is not sufficientlyelucidated. Arachidonic acid is known to inhibit the activity of 17βHSD [16]. Therefore, it may indirectly influencetherateofcellularsynt hesisoftestosterone. Oleic acid inhibits the activity of cholesterol esterase [18], whereas γ-linolenic acid and eicosapentanoic acid metabolites inhibit the activity of 5α-reductase [21]. Changes in the activity of the complex of isoenzymes representing the 17βHSD group act probably as a "molecular switch" modulating the control of hormone-dependent prostate tumors. Results of the experimental studies have shown that dietary fat is one of the factors promoting the development of neoplastic lesions in the prostate [33, 34] by altering the metabolism of androgens and enhancing oxidative stress [8]. It has also been demonstrated that Ω-3 fatty acids present in fishoilreducethebindingofandro gensbyprostatereceptors[27],withdecosahexanoic acid being particularly active [2].
    Oxidative stress is one of the main mechanisms that may cause carcinogenesis. Research results point to a close correlation between the oxidative stress level and the incidence of prostate cancer [6] as the reactive oxygen species (ROS) damage cellular DNA, lipids and proteins. Dietary fat (especially rich in PUFAs) is, in turn, one of the main substrates for oxidative stress [7, 27]. On the other hand, androgens may promote carcinogenesis by changing the activity of ARs and affecting regulatory genes and transcription factors [13], especially the nuclear factor kappa B [12]. Thus, it has been observed that changes in the expression of AR genes play an important role in proliferation of neoplastic cells in the prostate [35].
    We found, that AR density in the prostate of rats fed with 20% grape-seed oil-diet, rich in linoleic acid (the Ω-6 PUFA), was higher than in animals fed high-lard diet rich in SFAs (fig.2).Thiswastrueforprostate
    Dietary fat and androgens
    17
    stroma cells examined after 3 and 6 week-feeding periods as well as for prostate gland cells after six weeks of experimental diet feeding period. Conversely, in rats fed high-lard diet for three weeks, the AR density in prostate gland cells was higher than in rats fed a grape-seed oil diet. These observations indicate that a high-fat diet with high Ω-6 (substrates for peroxidation) level during the shorter feeding period can promote an increase in ARs density, and potentially, carcinogenesis, acting probably through the Ω-3 fatty acid influenceoncellmembranefluidit y.
    DIETARY FAT FEEDING PERIOD
    Our previous results indicated [9, 23] that the period of time during which the fat rich diet is applied may be another significantfactoraffectingandr ogen
    Gromadzka-Ostrowska
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    Figure 2. Androgen receptor density (number of cells with positive immunohistochemical reaction in estimated area) in the rat prostate (mean ± SEM). Rats were fed high-fat diet (20% w/w) with grape-seed oil (G; n=14 rats) or with lard (L; n=14 rats) for 3 or 6 weeks. The means were compared by one-way ANOVA followed by LSD test. Bars with different superscipts are significantly(p≤0.05)different .18
    secretion and metabolism. During a prolonged period of feeding a high-fat diet to rats, T plasma concentration initially increases and then decreases below the baseline values [22]. Additionally, a significantcorrelationwasshown between the feeding time and the fat type and dietary fat level [22].
    Realtionships between the effects of fat-feeding period and dietary fat type on plasma T level in male rats are shown in Figure 3. In this experiment, eight groups of male Wistar rats were fed four diets containing different fats (fishoilrichinΩ-3 PUFA docosahexaenoic acid, grape-seed oil rich in Ω-6 PUFA linoleic acid, rapeseed oil rich in MUFA oleic acid, and lard rich in SFA stearic acid) during three or six weeks. The results clearly showed that plasma T concentration is influencedbydietaryfattypeandf eedingperiodwith higher T level after three weeks of feeding found in all fat-type groups. On the other hand, significantlylowerTconcentrati onwasobservedinanimals fed a diet with rapeseed oil during 6 weeks. Our data together with
    Dietary fat and androgens
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    Figure 3. Effects of feeding period (3 or 6 weeks) and dietary fat type (F, G, R, L) on plasma testosterone level in male rats (mean ± SEM; n=56 rats). The means were compared by one-way ANOVA followed by LSD test. Bars with different superscipts are significantlydifferent(p≤0.05) .F:dietwithfishoil;G:dietwithg rapeseed oil; R: diet with rapeseed oil; L: diet with lard.19
    those published previously [9, 22] indicate that there are some adaptation processes in these nutrient effects on androgens secretion.
    In conclusion, it should be stated that the amount of dietary fat, and its composition, i.e. the content of individual fatty acids and/or fatty acid groups, as well as the period during which the nutrient is fed to animals significantlyaffectthesecretio nand metabolismofandrogens.
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    REFERENCES
    1. Blumenfeld AJ, Fleshner N, Casselman B, Trachtenberg J 2000 Nutritional aspects of prostate cancer: a review. Canadian Journal of Urology 7 927-935.
    2. Chung B, Mitchell S, Zhang J, Young C
    2001 Effects of docosahexaenoic acid and eicosapentaenoic acid on androgen-mediated cell growth and gene expression in LNCaP prostate cancer cells. Cancerogenesis 22 1201-1206.
    3. Clinton SK, Mulloy AL, Li SP, Mangian HJ, Visek WJ
    1997 Dietary fat and protein intake differ in modulation of prostate tumor growth, prolactin secretion and metabolism, and prostate gland prolactin binding capacity in rats. Journal of Nutrition 127 225-237.
    4. Diver MJ
    1993 The effect of free fatty acids on the in vitro binding of testosterone in human plasma. Journal of Endocrinology 136 327-330.
    5. Dorgan JF, Judd JT, Longcope C, Brown C, Schatzkin A, Clevidence BA, Campbell WS, Nair PP
    1996 Effects of dietary fat and fiberonplasmaandurineandrogens andestrogensinman:a controlled feeding study. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 64 850-855.
    6. Fleshner NE, Klotz LH
    1999 Diet, androgens, oxidative stress and prostate cancer susceptibility. Cancer Metastasis Reviews 17 325-330.
    7. Fleshner NE, Kucuk O
    2001 Antooxidant dietary supplements: rationale and current status as chemopreventive agents for prostate cancer. Urology 57 90-94.
    8. Fleshner N, Bagnell PS, Klotz L, Venkateswaran V
    2004 Dietary fat and prostate cancer. Journal of Urology 171 S19-S24.
    9. Gromadzka-Ostrowska J, Przepiórka M, Romanowicz K
    2002 Influenceofdietaryfattyacids,l evel of dietary fat and feeding period on some parameters of androgens metabolism in male rats. Reproductive Biology 2 277-292.
    10. Habito RC, Ball MJ
    2001 Postprandial changes in sex hormones after meals of different composition. Metabolism 50 505-511.
    11. Hanis T, Zidek V, Sachova J, Klir P, Deyl Z
    1990 Effects of dietary trans-fatty acids on reproductive performance of Wistar rats. British Journal of Nutrition 61 519-29.
    12. Ho E, Boileau TW, Bray TM
    2004 Dietary influencesonendocrine-inflamamatoryinteractionsin prostate cancer development. Archives of Biochemistry and Biophysics 428 109-117.
    13. Huang H, Tindall DJ
    2002 The role of androgen receptor in prostate cancer. Critical Reviews in Eucariotic Gene Expression 12 193-207.
    14. Kaaks R
    1996 Nutrition, hormones and breast cancer: is insulin the missing link? Cancer Causes and Control 7 605-625.
    15. Liang T, Liao S
    1992 Inhibition of steroid 5α-reductase by specificaliphaticunsaturatedfa ttyacids. Biochemistry Journal 285 557-562.
    16. Marinero MJ, Penalva V, Oliva JL, Colas B, Prieto JC, Lopez-Ruiz MP
    1998 Specificeffectsofarachidonic acid on 17β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase in rat Leydig cells. FEBS Letters 422 10-14.
    17. Meikle AW, Benson SJ, Liu XH, Boam WD, Stringham JD
    1989 Nonestrifiedfattyacidsmodulate steroidogenesis in mouse Leydig cells. American Journal of Physiology 257 E937-E942.
    Gromadzka-Ostrowska
    20
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    18. Meikle AW, de Sousa JCC, Hanzalova J, Murray DK 1996 Oleic acid inhibits cholesteryl esterase and cholesterol utilization for testosterone synthesis in mouse Leydig cells. Metabolism 45 293-299.
    19. Mooradian AD, Pamplona DM, Viosca SP, Korenman SG
    1988 Effect of free fatty acids on the bioavailability of plasma testosterone and dihydrotestosterone. Journal of Steroid Biochemistry 29 369-376.
    20. Nagata C, Takatsuka N, Kawakami N, Shimizu H
    2000 Relationships between types of fat consumed and serum estrogen and androgen concentration in Japanese men. Nutrition Cancer 38 163-167.
    21. Pham H, Ziboh VA
    2002 5α-reductase-catalase conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone is increased in prostatic adenocarcinoma cells: suppression by 15-lipoxygenase metabolites of gamma-linolenic and eicosapentaenoic acids. Journal of Steroid Biochemistry and Molecular Biology 82 393-400.
    22. Przepiórka M
    2004 Dietary fat influenceonandrogenmetabolism. PhDThesis(inPolish).Warsaw Agricultural University, Poland.
    23. Przepiórka M, Gromadzka-Ostrowska J
    2004 Changes in dietary fat type or level disturb leptin and testosterone relationships in rats. (in Polish). In: "Physiological Determinants of Progress in Diet Therapy", SGGW, Warszawa, 176-180.
    24. Reed MJ, Dunkley SA, Singh A, Thomas BS, Haines AP, Cruickshank JK
    1993 The role of free fatty acids in regulating the tissue availability and synthesis of sex steroids (Review). Prostaglandins Leukotriens and Essential Fatty Acids 48 111-116.
    25. Roche HM
    1999 Unsaturated fatty acids. The Proceedings of The Nutrition Society 58 397-401.
    26. Romanelli F, Valenca M, Conte D, Isidori A, Negro-Vilar A
    1995 Arachidonic acid and its metabolites effects on testosterone production by rat Leydig cells. Journal of Endocrinological Investigations 18 186-193.
    27. Santos AF, Huang H, Tindall DJ
    2004 The androgen receptor: a potential target for therapy of prostate cancer. Steroids 69 79-85.
    28. Sebokova E, Garg ML, Wierzbicki A, Thompson AB, Clandinin MT
    1990 Alteration of the lipid composition of rat testicular plasma membranes by dietary (n-3) fatty acids changes the responsiveness of Leydig cells and testosterone synthesis. Journal of Nutrition 120 610-618.
    29. Street C, Howell RJ, Perry L, Al.-Othman S, Chard T
    1989 Inhibition of binding of gonadal steroids to serum binding proteins by non-estrifiedfattyacids:theinfluen ceofchainlengthand degree of unsaturation. Acta Endocrinologica 120 175-179.
    30. Volek JS Gomez AL, Love DM, Avery NG, Sharman MJ, Kraemer WJ
    2001 Effects of a high-fat diet on postabsorptive and postprandial testosterone responses to a fat-rich meal. Metabolism 50 1351-1355.
    31. Wang C, Catllin DH, Starcevic B, Heber D, Ambler C, Berman N, Lucas G, Leung A, Schramm K, Lee PWN, Hull L, Swerdloff RS
    2005 Low-fat high-fiberdietdecreasedserumandurin eandrogens in men. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism 90 3550-3559.
    32. Watanabe S, Tani T, Watanabe S, Seno M
    1990 Effects of free fatty acids on the binding of steroid hormones to bovine serum albumin. Lipids 25 633-638.
    33. West DW, Slattery ML, Robinson LM, French TK, Mahoney AW
    1991 Adult dietary intake and prostate cancer risk in Utah: a case-control study with special emphasis on aggressive tumors. Cancer Causes and Control 2 85-94.
    34. Whittemore AS, Kolonel LN, Wu AH, John EM, Gallagher RP, Howe GR, Burch D, Hankin J, Dreon DM, West DW, Teh C, Paffenbarger RS Jr
    1995 Prostate cancer in relation to diet, physical activity, and body size in blacks, whites, and Asians in the United States and Canada. Journal of National Cancer Institute 87 652-661.
    35. Yeap BB, Wilce JA, Leedman PJ
    2004 The androgen receptor mRNA. Bioassays 26 672-684.
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    I am definately experiencing some lethargy on the 1-andro. I tried 4 caps/ day ( split between morning and evening) and was falling asleep all the time...napping every day. It is a somewhat better at 3/caps per day, however Im definately still a bit of a "yawner" -haha. Overall, I think it is bearable and worth it for me at the 3 caps/day. This is my first PH and Im seeing some nice gains..im up about 8 lbs in 20 days - 1 bottle of 1-andro. However my plan was to switch over to EPI-V at this point for (2 more bottles - for a total 60days cycle) but was unable to find it in stock anywhere. Ive been trying for 3 weeks to get the EPI-V. I was able to get some 4-AD from AMS and so my question is (I know doc cant answer this)...is this going to be ok or should I just stop now. How should I continue?

    before you ask....serm = yes I have one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by venomous812 View Post
    I am definately experiencing some lethargy on the 1-andro. I tried 4 caps/ day ( split between morning and evening) and was falling asleep all the time...napping every day. It is a somewhat better at 3/caps per day, however Im definately still a bit of a "yawner" -haha. Overall, I think it is bearable and worth it for me at the 3 caps/day. This is my first PH and Im seeing some nice gains..im up about 8 lbs in 20 days - 1 bottle of 1-andro. However my plan was to switch over to EPI-V at this point for (2 more bottles - for a total 60days cycle) but was unable to find it in stock anywhere. Ive been trying for 3 weeks to get the EPI-V. I was able to get some 4-AD from AMS and so my question is (I know doc cant answer this)...is this going to be ok or should I just stop now. How should I continue?

    before you ask....serm = yes I have one.
    age = 40
    gym experience = I scare myself
    Yes 1-Test can cause some lethargy and the 4ad may help provided it converts well enough but this is what it was developed for. I would start by stacking in a moderate dose of 4ad with your 1-andro. Just for the record I don't think everybody will get lethargy to 1-andro but those who are very sensitive to the compound may. This is a sign that the conversion to 1-test is working very well. Pure Test may help also.

    Oh and venomous welcome to the board, stick around and share experience.
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    Quote Originally Posted by venomous812 View Post
    I am definately experiencing some lethargy on the 1-andro. I tried 4 caps/ day ( split between morning and evening) and was falling asleep all the time...napping every day. It is a somewhat better at 3/caps per day, however Im definately still a bit of a "yawner" -haha. Overall, I think it is bearable and worth it for me at the 3 caps/day. This is my first PH and Im seeing some nice gains..im up about 8 lbs in 20 days - 1 bottle of 1-andro. However my plan was to switch over to EPI-V at this point for (2 more bottles - for a total 60days cycle) but was unable to find it in stock anywhere. Ive been trying for 3 weeks to get the EPI-V. I was able to get some 4-AD from AMS and so my question is (I know doc cant answer this)...is this going to be ok or should I just stop now. How should I continue?

    before you ask....serm = yes I have one.
    age = 40
    gym experience = I scare myself
    If you are really getting that tired and groggy all the time, then switch/convert over to the EPI-V sooner, should not be any lethargy with that one, especially considering it has a Stim in it, you would just be doing what DreamWeaver and I call a Bridge cycle, where you go a little longer than usual, but bridge from one PH to another, usually (like in this case) two very different PH's for two very different reasons... 1-ANDRO for size, mass, & strength... Bridge ... EPI-V for Strength, muscle hardening, & fat loss!

    Quote Originally Posted by venomous812 View Post
    "gym experience = I scare myself"
    Easy fix... stop looking at yourself in the mirror and just lift the damn weights!

    Hahahahah... all in fun bro, could not help myself!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottyDoc View Post
    all in fun bro, could not help myself!
    Hahaha...no problem and thanks for the help. Now my only problem is finding the EPI-V in stock...
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    Quote Originally Posted by venomous812 View Post
    Hahaha...no problem and thanks for the help. Now my only problem is finding the EPI-V in stock...
    Anytime Brotha, that is why DW & I are here...
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    Hey guys... check out our latest reviews on Amazon dot com about FINAFLEX PRO XANTHINE 500-XT...

    (**5 Stars**)
    Good choice
    February 17, 2011 By JDAwesome product. Pro-Xanthine provides good clean energy and all you need is one. Destroys Redline. Redefine Nutrition makes some killer ...

    (**5 Stars**)
    Greatest product I have ever used
    February 5, 2012 By MartinNot sure where to start so will keep it simple. This fatburner has all the properties I have ever wanted ...

    (**5 Stars**)
    Great for staying on track.
    December 10, 2011 By lmoralesThis is perfect to avoid Holiday weight gain. It's a great appetite suppressant. One is enough to get me through ...


    http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/cr/B003Y...ef=aw_d_cr_hpc
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottyDoc View Post
    Hey guys... check out our latest reviews on Amazon dot com about FINAFLEX PRO XANTHINE 500-XT...

    (**5 Stars**)
    Good choice
    February 17, 2011 By JDAwesome product. Pro-Xanthine provides good clean energy and all you need is one. Destroys Redline. Redefine Nutrition makes some killer ...

    (**5 Stars**)
    Greatest product I have ever used
    February 5, 2012 By MartinNot sure where to start so will keep it simple. This fatburner has all the properties I have ever wanted ...

    (**5 Stars**)
    Great for staying on track.
    December 10, 2011 By lmoralesThis is perfect to avoid Holiday weight gain. It's a great appetite suppressant. One is enough to get me through ...


    http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/cr/B003Y...ef=aw_d_cr_hpc
    Yah I am going to run it End of March... i'ts no my list...
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    How long before workout to take pro XT-500?
    First one today...also,my first stim in a while so the effects should be more pronounced
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    Quote Originally Posted by runner_79 View Post
    How long before workout to take pro XT-500?
    First one today...also,my first stim in a while so the effects should be more pronounced
    Pro-Xanthine ? You want to take it very early in the day and don't even think about a second dose till you climatized to the product, some never get to it due to potentcy...
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    Pro-Xanthine ? You want to take it very early in the day and don't even think about a second dose till you climatized to the product, some never get to it due to potentcy...
    Yes... yes... & Yes! DW is 100% right, this is not a pre-workout, it is an all day thing! So what he stated above is exactly how it should be taken/dosed!!!
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    honest review of finaflex G8 chekc it out guys@!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkretz View Post
    honest review of finaflex G8 chekc it out guys@!!!!
    Thanks for the great review.. and your regard for Finaflex. I really care what people think of us, I chose this company to reepresent cuz I agree they make good products.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    Thanks for the great review.. and your regard for Finaflex. I really care what people think of us, I chose this company to reepresent cuz I agree they make good products.
    couldnt agree more, and u treat ur customers with amazing respect and custormerservice in all ways, thanks again for the opportunity!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkretz View Post
    couldnt agree more, and u treat ur customers with amazing respect and custormerservice in all ways, thanks again for the opportunity!
    Yah another reason I asked to join the company...
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    ... and so we shall continue to treat our Customers with Respect!!! Long Live FINAFLEX!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottyDoc View Post
    ... and so we shall continue to treat our Customers with Respect!!! Long Live FINAFLEX!!!
    AMEN!!!! when is trivia?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkretz View Post
    AMEN!!!! when is trivia?
    as soon as DW get's off his old A$$ Keister and comes up with a Question, I'm making him come up with at question this week!!!
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    well im botu to go take a test sooo wait alittle bit lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottyDoc View Post
    as soon as DW get's off his old A$$ Keister and comes up with a Question, I'm making him come up with at question this week!!!
    Hey I just sent it off ... has 3 parts and to do with this weeks prize....
    Mind and Muscle Board Representative I am not a physician and any advice is solely based on personal experience with various products
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    Attention...
    Today's Trivia will be held at 2:00pm Eastern Standard Time

    REDEFINE NUTRITON Weightlifting/Bodybuilding Trivia...
    Dr. Albert Scott Representative for FINAFLEX
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    Redefine Yourself..... REDEFINE EVERYTHING!
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    Chris Tuckers Warrior Workout Example

    WW1: work sets to Form Failure 6-8 reps, second set is a double Drop
    Decline DB Bench Press
    Bent Over DB Row,
    Standing Arnold Presses (elbows should point out and back a little at end of movement)
    DB Hammer Curls
    DB Overhead Triceps Extension
    Leg Press
    Leg Curls
    WW2: work sets to Form Failure 6-8 reps, second set is a double Drop
    Lat pulldowns
    Flat Bench
    L-Lateral Raise
    Close Grip Bench
    Barbell Curls
    Squats
    Stiff Leg Deads
    WW3: work sets to Form Failure 6-8 reps, second set is a double Drop
    Push Press
    DB Pull Over
    Incline Bench
    Reverse Curls
    Decline Tri Extensions
    Tbar Rows
    Leg Ext

    I start out at about 60% and work up to 95% of my capacity in about 5 weeks... It's alway I working set then 1 set with a double drop...full body workouts just cycle the 3 days...
    Mind and Muscle Board Representative I am not a physician and any advice is solely based on personal experience with various products
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    Originally posted by EasyEJL... Referenced from... http://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceComp.../ucm064932.htm

    Round the values according to FDA rounding rules

    The following table provides rounding rules for declaring nutrients on the
    nutrition label or in labeling:

    Calories
    Calories from Fat
    Calories from
    Saturated Fat
    < 5 cal - express as 0
    ≤ 50 cal - express to
    nearest 5 cal increment
    > 50 cal - express to nearest 10 cal
    increment
    < 5 cal
    Total Fat
    Saturated Fat
    Polyunsaturated
    Fat
    Monounsaturated Fat
    < .5 g - express as 0
    < 5 g - express to
    nearest .5g increment
    ≥ 5 g - express to nearest 1 g increment
    < .5 g
    Cholesterol < 2 mg - express as 0
    2 - 5 mg - express as "less
    than 5 mg"
    > 5 mg - express to nearest 5 mg increment
    < 2 mg
    Sodium
    Potassium
    < 5 mg - express as 0
    5 - 140 mg - express to
    nearest 5 mg increment
    > 140 mg - express to nearest 10 mg increment
    < 5 mg
    Total Carbohydrate
    Dietary Fiber
    < .5 g - express as 0
    < 1 g - express as
    "Contains less than 1 g" or "less than 1 g"
    ≥ 1 g - express to nearest 1 g
    increment
    < 1 g
    Soluble and Insoluble Fiber Sugars
    Sugar
    Alcohol
    Other Carbohydrate
    < .5 g - express as 0
    < 1 g - express as
    "Contains less than 1 g" or "less than 1 g"
    ≥ 1 g - express to nearest 1 g
    increment
    < .5 g
    Protein < .5 g - express as 0
    < 1 g - express as
    "Contains less than 1 g" or "less than 1 g" or to 1 g if .5 g to < 1 g
    ≥ 1
    g - express to nearest 1 g increment
    < 1 g
    When declaring nutrients other than vitamins and
    minerals that have RDIs as a % DV
    express to nearest 1% DV increment < 1% DV
    Vitamins & Minerals
    (express as % DV)
    < 2% of RDI may be expressed as:
    (1) 2% DV if actual amount is 1% or
    more
    (2) 0
    (3) an asterisk that refers to statement
    "Contains less than
    2% of the Daily
    Value of this (these) nutrient(s)"
    (4) for Vit A, C,
    calcium, iron: statement
    "Not a significant source of
    (listing the vitamins and minerals omitted)"

    ≤ 10% of RDI - express to nearest 2% DV increment
    > 10% - 50% of RDI -
    express to nearest 5% DV increment
    > 50% of RDI - express to nearest 10%
    DV increment
    < 2% RDI
    Beta-Carotene
    (express as % DV)
    ≤ 10% of RDI for vitamin A- express to nearest 2% DV
    increment
    > 10% - 50% of RDI for vitamin A- express to nearest 5% DV
    increment
    > 50% of RDI for vitamin A- express to nearest 10% DV
    increment



    So total calories can be a bit different, with calorie amounts < 50 cal being rounded to nearest 5, and over 50 cal being rounded to nearest 10. So in your 1.5g of fat which would be 14.5, it just gets rounded to 15, but the carbs at (lets start with 41) get rounded from 164 to 160, then the protein of 7 gets rounded to 30 so hmm still just 205 not 210. hmm well anyhow at least we know how it rounds them for calories now.
    Dr. Albert Scott Representative for FINAFLEX
    www.finaflex.com
    Redefine Yourself..... REDEFINE EVERYTHING!
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    Ah something for the more anal This can be annoying at first though when you are trying to establish a baseline and you run into all these inconsistancies...
    Mind and Muscle Board Representative I am not a physician and any advice is solely based on personal experience with various products
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