Running Serm inverse to ADT??

ali11atc · 12-27-2005, 01:22 PM

Here is a question i really havent found a sure answer for or even the science behind it but im hoping this thread will shed some light..

I have been reading and told that it is best to start SERM (nolva) high and start ADT(RXT) low and taper the SERM down while increadint the ADT??

Has anyone tried this and what were there resutls?

Right now im going with what has been tried and tested and that is running my SERM (Nolva) along with my ADT (RXT) both high and tapering them both down..

What has anyone experienced or think is best?

**jonny21** · 12-27-2005, 03:12 PM

This is how I do it.
Clomid 100mg X5 days
Nolva 40, 20, 20
Rebound 25, 50, 50, 75

I read some of Dr. D's posts regarding PCT and made the decision to follow the taper. I have not had itchy nipples nor any signs of gyno. I also take an AI while "ON" usually 1 cap of rebound.

Alpha Dog · 12-27-2005, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonny21

This is how I do it.
Clomid 100mg X5 days
Nolva 40, 40, 20, 20
Rebound 25, 50, 50, 75

I read some of Dr. D's posts regarding PCT and made the decision to follow the taper. I have not had itchy nipples nor any signs of gyno. I also take an AI while "ON" usually 1 cap of rebound.

Yup. Maybe a bit overboard on the SERM's (not that's is all that big of a deal) but otherwise, this is the right idea.

**DR.D** · 12-27-2005, 04:43 PM

Estrogen only "rebounds" based on the mechanism of suppression. SERM, for example, only masks estrogen expression by occupying receptors but estrogen production is left unchecked and actually increases as testosterone levels increase. AI's like letro inhibit inducible enzymes and just like a leaky faucet, they body will eventually try to balance the equation with increased aromatase activity. Steroidal AI's like Teslac, Exemestane, and ReboundXT will not result in 'rebound' phenomena because the inhibition is non-competitive and irreversible. They act as false substrates, so aromatase is still happy to act on them (instead of androstenedione) and the body keeps no record of an imbalance. There is no leaky faucet. In fact, after prolonged use, steroidal AI's often produce a protracted anti-e benefit even after being discontinued. This is why I suggest an inverse taper with SERM and RXT for PCT with an abrupt stoppage of RXT at the end. As the SERM elevates androgen/estrogen production, the AI dose is increased to compensate while the SERM is phased out. It works quite well to use this approach and rebound is not encountered. Adding LX and/or DHEA also really makes for a killer PCT in this scheme. This is a typical example of my PCT:

wk1: Clomid 150mg/d, RXT 25mg/d, DHEA 200mg/d, LX 75mg/d
wk2: Clomid 100mg/d, RXT 25mg/d, DHEA 200mg/d, LX 50mg/d
wk3: Nolva 60mg/d, RXT 50mg/d, DHEA 200mg/d, LX 25mg/d
wk4: Nolva 40mg/d, RXT 50mg/d, DHEA 100mg/d
wk5: Nolva 20mg/d, RXT 75mg/d, DHEA 100mg/d
wk6: RXT 75mg/d, DHEA 100mg/d

Notice I phase the Clomid out and introduce the Nolva later. This helps prevent sides from developing from accumulation of estrogenic metabolites from the Clomid and also acts to minimize the use of Nolva, which is more liver toxic than Clomid. Rebound is very unlikely and estrogen biosynthesis will likely be significantly lowered for 3+ wks even after the end of this PCT. I do long ones, as you can see.

DAdams91982 · 12-27-2005, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DR.D

Estrogen only "rebounds" based on the mechanism of suppression. SERM, for example, only masks estrogen expression by occupying receptors but estrogen production is left unchecked and actually increases as testosterone levels increase. AI's like letro inhibit inducible enzymes and just like a leaky faucet, they body will eventually try to balance the equation with increased aromatase activity. Steroidal AI's like Teslac, Exemestane, and ReboundXT will not result in 'rebound' phenomena because the inhibition is non-competitive and irreversible. They act as false substrates, so aromatase is still happy to act on them (instead of androstenedione) and the body keeps no record of an imbalance. There is no leaky faucet. In fact, after prolonged use, steroidal AI's often produce a protracted anti-e benefit even after being discontinued. This is why I suggest an inverse taper with SERM and RXT for PCT with an abrupt stoppage of RXT at the end. As the SERM elevates androgen/estrogen production, the AI dose is increased to compensate while the SERM is phased out. It works quite well to use this approach and rebound is not encountered. Adding LX and/or DHEA also really makes for a killer PCT in this scheme. This is a typical example of my PCT:

wk1: Clomid 150mg/d, RXT 25mg/d, DHEA 200mg/d, LX 75mg/d
wk2: Clomid 100mg/d, RXT 25mg/d, DHEA 200mg/d, LX 50mg/d
wk3: Nolva 60mg/d, RXT 50mg/d, DHEA 200mg/d, LX 25mg/d
wk4: Nolva 40mg/d, RXT 50mg/d, DHEA 100mg/d
wk5: Nolva 20mg/d, RXT 75mg/d, DHEA 100mg/d
wk6: RXT 75mg/d, DHEA 100mg/d

Notice I phase the Clomid out and introduce the Nolva later. This helps prevent sides from developing from accumulation of estrogenic metabolites from the Clomid and also acts to minimize the use of Nolva, which is more liver toxic than Clomid. Rebound is very unlikely and estrogen biosynthesis will likely be significantly lowered for 3+ wks even after the end of this PCT. I do long ones, as you can see.

Wow NICE... this is now my standard. Id give you more rep D, but apparently I have to spread more around beforehand!!

Adams

**DR.D** · 12-27-2005, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAdams91982

...Id give you more rep D, but apparently I have to spread more around beforehand!!

Adams

Same here my friend! I wish I could re-rep more freely, but I think you can only do that after 10 in between. Anyway, thanks for the props. Give that PCT a try, it's tried and true.

ali11atc · 12-27-2005, 08:35 PM

Dr. D..

i liked the PCT you have developed.. But i would like you advice on mine that i will be using with a 3 week cycle of SD

My SD cycle will be a 10/20/20

PCT will be

Nolva 40mg/RXT 25mg/Reduce XT 75mg
Nolva 30mg/RXT 50mg/Reduce XT 50mg
Nolva 20mg/RXT 50mg/Reduce XT 25mg
Nolva 10mg/RXT 75mg/Reduce XT 25mg

I will also be taking fenugreek split dosages along with my safe guard supps throughout my PCT..

Any suggestions.. I personally think through all the research ive done that this will be a great PCT for a 3 week cycle of SD.. Im running my PCT one extra week and im running my RXT inverse to my nolva which will be a first time experiment for me.. I usually start both high and taper down..

Truck 44 · 12-27-2005, 08:39 PM

Dr.D thank you for the PCT outline, I think I will try this on my next PCT.

**DR.D** · 12-27-2005, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ali11atc

Dr. D..

i liked the PCT you have developed.. But i would like you advice on mine that i will be using with a 3 week cycle of SD

My SD cycle will be a 10/20/20

PCT will be

Nolva 40mg/RXT 25mg/Reduce XT 75mg
Nolva 30mg/RXT 50mg/Reduce XT 50mg
Nolva 20mg/RXT 50mg/Reduce XT 25mg
Nolva 10mg/RXT 75mg/Reduce XT 25mg

I will also be taking fenugreek split dosages along with my safe guard supps throughout my PCT..

Any suggestions.. I personally think through all the research ive done that this will be a great PCT for a 3 week cycle of SD.. Im running my PCT one extra week and im running my RXT inverse to my nolva which will be a first time experiment for me.. I usually start both high and taper down..

No, that sounds good to me. I have gotten away with much less of a PCT on SD only cycles at higher doses than that, so it looks very well planned to me. The fen is a great addition too. Also, if you have the cash and still haven't tried ActivaTe, do it! Not really necessary for your cycle, but makes PCT a much nicer experience all the way. Gains persist throughout PCT. I also agree with you starting the SD at 10mg the first wk, or at least the few 3-4 days. Makes for a smoother start IMO.

ali11atc · 12-27-2005, 08:55 PM

Dr. D,

I have heard of ActivaTE, but havent done much research on it.. What is the main purpose of having this in a PCT?

thanks.

**DR.D** · 12-27-2005, 09:24 PM

It normalizes SHBG and keeps free test high while still lowering estrogen. 24hr pumps, libido and strength gains are excellent during PCT. I love it. It's worth a try and I'm guessing that it will work for most people, very well. I will never do another PCT without it.

ali11atc · 12-27-2005, 09:34 PM

Dr. D,

do you think adding ActivaTE would be too much of an addition to my Current PCT.... (Nolva, RXT, Reduce XT)???

**DR.D** · 12-28-2005, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ali11atc

Dr. D,

do you think adding ActivaTE would be too much of an addition to my Current PCT.... (Nolva, RXT, Reduce XT)???

No. It's more for those who have just finished a long cycle and may have trouble keeping the gains. Also, those that have been on high doses of non-orals during their cycle. It would make a very good base anabolic stacked with RXT for a "natural" cycle too. However, once you try it, you will see what I mean. In your case, you don't need it, but I have no doubt that it would still be helpful if you choose to use it. I wish DS had enough to send everyone at AM a free bottle! It's good stuff and I bet most of you would really like it during PCT.

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**Beelzebub** · 12-28-2005, 07:57 AM

good info on this thread. props to ya doc

Lithuanian Bear · 12-28-2005, 08:53 AM

Dr. D what is LX?

**jonny21** · 12-28-2005, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lithuanian Bear

Dr. D what is LX?

Lean Extreme

charliewat · 01-04-2006, 05:44 PM

How would you take the Activate? Do you take the same does all the way thru or peg it to one of the other PCT products?

gten79 · 01-04-2006, 10:03 PM

Yeah how would you incorporate the ActivaTE and the Fenugreek into this PCT Dr. D?

**DR.D** · 01-05-2006, 07:40 PM

I suggest it this way to incorporate into the above PCT scheme:

wk-1: ACT half dose
wk1: ACT full dose, fen 3 caps
wk2: ACT full dose, fen 4 caps
wk3: ACT full dose, fen 5 caps
wk4: ACT full dose, fen 6 caps
wk5: ACT full dose
wk6: ACT half dose

ACT definitely helps refresh the end of a stale cycle. I once started it 2 wks before PCT and that worked well too. I have used it 8 wks straight, but the pumps and libido effects died after 7 wks for me. Don't milk it too long, unless it's still working for you. In that case, go ahead and stay on it if you want. Some have told me it has worked past 2 months for them, I wish it had for me. For me, 6-7 wks seemed like a perfect rotation time, then 3-4 wks off before starting again.

With the fenugreek, it only works for 3-4 wks at a time and must be ramped every wk, then you must break for at least 2 wks to restore benefits. You can cycle fen 4on/2off or 3on/1off forever. I use Nature's Way or NOW caps (500-650mg/cap). I always include fen in PCT and from now on ACT too. ACT makes it so easy to keep gaining during PCT and the usual sides from the SERM are not evident. Try it and you will be a believer!

gten79 · 01-06-2006, 03:37 PM

Awesome! Thanks Dr. D, this will now be my standard PCT for all of my future cycles until you dictate otherwise.

Both Bobo and yourself are the reasons why I'm addicted to this board. You are a credit to this board and your profession.

**mmorpheuss** · 01-08-2006, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gten79

Awesome! Thanks Dr. D, this will now be my standard PCT for all of my future cycles until you dictate otherwise.

Both Bobo and yourself are the reasons why I'm addicted to this board. You are a credit to this board and your profession.

second that.

Rictor33 · 01-10-2006, 03:48 PM

Dr.D, this is my pct following your template in this thread. What do you think of this for after a 15 week 500enth/400eq cycle? Think it should be run a little longer?

Week 1:
• Clomid (at night) 150mg/day
• Rebound XT (morning) 25mg/day
• Creatine Ethyl-Extreme 5caps/day
• Activate 5caps 2x/day

Week 2:
• Clomid (at night) 100mg/day
• Rebound XT (morning) 25mg/day
• Creatine Ethyl-Extreme 5caps/day
• Activate 5caps 4x/day

Week 3:
• Nolvadex (at night) 60mg/day
• Rebound XT (split) 50mg/day
• Creatine Ethyl-Extreme 5caps/day
• Activate 5caps 4x/day

Week 4:
• Nolvadex (at night) 40mg/day
• Rebound XT (split) 50mg/day
• Creatine Ethyl-Extreme 5caps/day
• Activate 5caps 4x/day

Week 5:
• Nolvadex (at night) 20mg/day
• Rebound XT (split) 75mg/day
• Creatine Ethyl-Extreme 5caps/day
• Activate 5caps 4x/day

Week 6:
• Rebound XT (split) 75mg/day
• Creatine Ethyl-Extreme 5caps/day
• Activate 5caps 4x/day

**DR.D** · 01-10-2006, 07:27 PM

Rictor33,

That looks good to me. You'll know after 4 wks if it's going to work or not. If not, you can always extend it another few wks.

punta · 01-10-2006, 11:52 PM

Rictor that PCT looks solid. I would run it longer but thats debateable.

Rictor33 · 01-11-2006, 04:19 AM

If I was to lengthen... Would you suggest I throw in an extra week of clomid @ 100mg/night and an extra week of nolva @ maybe 40 before I taper down to 20? That would put the cycle at 8 weeks in length....

punta · 01-11-2006, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rictor33

If I was to lengthen... Would you suggest I throw in an extra week of clomid @ 100mg/night and an extra week of nolva @ maybe 40 before I taper down to 20? That would put the cycle at 8 weeks in length....

That sounds pretty good to me.

**DR.D** · 01-11-2006, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by punta

That sounds pretty good to me.

I normally go 8 wks too, with 8-16 wk cycles, using 3-4 wks Clomid. Unless hCG is used on cycle, then I can usually get away with 6 wks.

Rictor33 · 01-16-2006, 04:03 PM

How about adding fenu @ 3g/day. Would I see extra benefits from adding that or am I taking enough **** yet?

**DR.D** · 01-16-2006, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rictor33

How about adding fenu @ 3g/day. Would I see extra benefits from adding that or am I taking enough **** yet?

You can always add fen (or trib). It's cheap, non-toxic, and gives an added synergistic dimension to any PCT

punta · 01-16-2006, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DR.D

You can always add fen (or trib). It's cheap, non-toxic, and gives an added synergistic dimension to any PCT

I agree its a great addition to any PCT.