CK/Anabolic Diet mega thread

Rugger · 07-25-2008, 10:05 PM

Seems that lots of people have questions about this diet. I myself have some and will certainly have more in the future.

Question: If I'm doing a 24 hour carb up on CKD, how many grams of carbs should I shoot for? 500? If I'm using this diet to cut, should I try and maintain the same caloric intake on the carb up day?

**SilentBob187** · 07-25-2008, 10:35 PM

I'm curious as well, hope you don't mind me taking a seat to listen.

Rugger · 07-25-2008, 10:42 PM

Not a problem at all. Hopefully there will be atleast 1 person who knows what they're doing. I have it set out for myself right now where I'll take 556g of carbs from friday night through last meal saturday.

**SilentBob187** · 07-25-2008, 10:56 PM

From what you've read, do people still add carbs for their post workout shakes when they're on AD or carbs just on refeed days?

About how much fiber are you pulling in per day?

Rugger · 07-25-2008, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilentBob187

From what you've read, do people still add carbs for their post workout shakes when they're on AD or carbs just on refeed days?

About how much fiber are you pulling in per day?

Only people who add carbs around work out are those on TKD or targeted ketogenic diet. Targeted meaning carb intake is targeted around workouts. I haven't had any strength issues (only endurance) with CKD so I haven't switched to TKD. I take just about 20g carbs ED Sunday-Friday night.

Theoretically on the CKD your insulin is so regulated and level that carbs in pwo aren't needed.

ThomasRivera · 07-26-2008, 01:28 AM

According to Lyle Macdonalds work, it's about 4.5 grams of carbohydrates per a pound of lean mass. Assuming you've worked off enough energy to sufficiently deplete glycogen levels through the week this should bring you back to 100 percent of your glycogen storage levels.

Distilled Water · 07-26-2008, 12:53 PM

There's a calculator for it. I did the CKD/anabolic diet before. I dont reccomend a 24 hour carb load unless your under 8% BF.

I would also not pig out during this time either. Maybe have one bad meal but thats it. Keep fats relatively low like 80gr or so and keep protein the same. Your calories during this time don't really matter because your body is suppose to still be using the fat as fuel and the carbs should be shuttled to the muscles to restore glycogen levels.

I think I book marked the calculator but it also called for 24-48 hour carb loads, which IMO, are waaaaay too much for dieting.

IMO here's how the carb load time should be

18%+.....1 high carb meal 100gr carbs
15-17%.....2-4hr carb loads 150gr carbs
12-14%.....4-6hr carb load 200-250gr carbs
10-11%......6-8hr carb loads 250-300gr carbs
<10%.....12-24hr carb loads 300-400gr carbs.

again I have no science but just from what I have gathered with my diet over the years. I really don't see the point to go over 400gr carbs.

Botch · 07-26-2008, 01:24 PM

Rugger1, If you're going for full glycogen supercompensation then you need to be eating a lot more carbs on the weekend (and a carb up longer than 24 hours). This is what I used when cutting:
Macros: 60%CHO/30%PRO/10%FAT

During the first 24 hours: 16xLBM(kg) For me this was about 1152g CHO during the first 24 hours. It is extremely difficult to consume this many carbohydrates during the first 24 hours if you don't drink liquid carbs (in the form of simple sugars and glucose polymers). It may seem difficult to eat this much (especially becuase you're eating a grip of protein as well), but you need to tough it out because you only do it once a week.

During the second 24 hours: about 8-10xLBM(kg) At this point insulin sensitivity begins to decline so the second 24 hours should consist of solid starches (rice, potatoes, pasta, etc.).

You don't need to be scared if your carb up lasts a bit longer than 48 hours. Sometimes mine would last 50 hours or so. The above protocol is Dan Duchaine's and helped me to lose some good bodyfat. The problem I think people have with carbing up and storing fat is that they keep the fat content too high during the carb up. The sweet spot is that 60/30/10. I could go into this with much greater detail but I don't think most people will want to follow this protocol because at first glance they just write this carb up off thinking that its going to make them fat. What people don't understand is that a CKD is not a cutting diet, but it is rather a recomposition diet. Your workouts need to coincide with your glycogen levels in order to reap the benefits of this diet. Without getting everything in order you're better off just sticking to a different diet because the results will be less than stellar, IMHO.

ThomasRivera · 07-26-2008, 01:27 PM

http://mesomorphosis.com/articles/mc...genic-diet.htm

There you go.

Rugger · 07-26-2008, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThomasRivera

http://mesomorphosis.com/articles/mc...genic-diet.htm

There you go.

Nice link. Thanks.

Botch · 07-26-2008, 01:36 PM

That is a very good article. One of the most important points you can take away from this article is that in order to achieve maximum glycogen supercompensation your carb load should start IMMEDIATELY following a depletion workout.

Rugger · 07-26-2008, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botch

That is a very good article. One of the most important points you can take away from this article is that in order to achieve maximum glycogen supercompensation your carb load should start IMMEDIATELY following a depletion workout.

What would some examples be of good liquid carbs? Also, could I use the same source of carbs throughout my load up? Meaning, Could I just eat 4 boxes of pasta over say 36 hours and be satisfied with that?

Botch · 07-26-2008, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilentBob187

From what you've read, do people still add carbs for their post workout shakes when they're on AD or carbs just on refeed days?

About how much fiber are you pulling in per day?

you will be good with 30g fiber per day.

Botch · 07-26-2008, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rugger1

What would some examples be of good liquid carbs? Also, could I use the same source of carbs throughout my load up? Meaning, Could I just eat 4 boxes of pasta over say 36 hours and be satisfied with that?

No, another important point in the article is that it's best to eat simple sugars or glucose polymers during the initial 24 hours becuase it will achieve supercompensation more quickly. Personally, I'm a fan of gatorade and during this time I would drink tons of gatorade, powerade, and maltodextrin (glucose polymers). Waxy maise starch works great too. Just be sure you stay away from fruit as fructose is not ideal since it will preferentially refill liver glycogen. But during that second 24 hours (or 12 if you only want a 36 hour load) splitting up that box of pasta would be ideal. I personally used to make a nice 12 servings of white rice on Saturday morning and eat it throughout the day with some good proteins.

Rugger · 07-26-2008, 01:46 PM

So for the first 24, just eat simples like malto, wms, gatorate, white bread etc? I think that will be really hard to do in large numbers. What would some other foods be that are high in simples but can be eaten in bulk? Wouldn't regular pasta instead of wheat pasta fit this bill for the first 24?

Botch · 07-26-2008, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rugger1

So for the first 24, just eat simples like malto, wms, gatorate, white bread etc? I think that will be really hard to do in large numbers. What would some other foods be that are high in simples but can be eaten in bulk? Wouldn't regular pasta instead of wheat pasta fit this bill for the first 24?

It can be very difficult to do in large numbers, hence the liquids. Like I said, simple sugars and glucose polymers. Pasta does not fit the bill here. You will be able to eat plenty of pasta during the second 24 hours if you chose to take this route.

Botch · 07-26-2008, 01:57 PM

Even if you go with a protocol with less carbs and protein you should still follow the types of carbs I have suggested. And don't go above 10% fat whatever you do during the carb up. This can slow digestion as well as the insulin response that we are trying to set up. As far as the amount of carbs and protein I have listed, none of this is set in stone. Honestly, the entire feild of nutrition is still in its infancy. If you used a different protocol you will still see results, I am just telling you what has worked best for me through trial and error.

Rugger · 07-26-2008, 01:59 PM

Thanks for the tips. I really appreciate it. I'll plan something out that includes lots of simples for the beginning and then just piling on as much as I can. I assume it's safe to say that caloric intake can be disregarded.

Botch · 07-26-2008, 02:02 PM

Yes, by all means you should stuff your face with carbohydrates on the weekends.

**SoCo4Fun** · 07-26-2008, 10:56 PM

This is a good thread as I am about to start on the Anabolic Diet...

Distilled Water · 07-27-2008, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoCo4Fun

This is a good thread as I am about to start on the Anabolic Diet...

Botch actually is a great guy 2 talk to about it. When i was having any problems I'd get at him about it and after i explained the exact details, his suggestions were usually spot on.

Rugger · 08-07-2008, 07:15 PM

Bump this one back up

spiderduncan · 08-08-2008, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botch

That is a very good article. One of the most important points you can take away from this article is that in order to achieve maximum glycogen supercompensation your carb load should start IMMEDIATELY following a depletion workout.

Rugger, I don't want to hijack your thread (BTW, great discussion), so be patient with me.

Botch, in you experience with the CKD, do people in general understand what a depletion workout involves?

Botch · 08-09-2008, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiderduncan

Rugger, I don't want to hijack your thread (BTW, great discussion), so be patient with me.

Botch, in you experience with the CKD, do people in general understand what a depletion workout involves?

No. And honestly, I didn't understand what it was or involved for the longest time. When I started to utilize it on this CKD I started to see much better results than I had been. It was really like night and day. You know, maybe if people learned how to utlize the depletion workout and carb timing they would carb up for a full 48+ hours rather than such a short amount of time that I see people doing so regularly (I used to be guilty of this as well). It requires A LOT of carbohydrates for the body to reach maximum glycogen supercompensation and this needs to be achieved my beginning the carb up IMMEDIATELY after you put down that last weight after the full body depletion workout. I think people have a feeling like they are getting "fat" while they carb up because they aren't always making forward progress but the carb up is pertinent to ensure quality in your workouts for the following week. And rest assured if you're cycling your macros correctly then you are not putting on "fat" during the carb up but rather loading up on glycogen.
I'm sorry if I rambled there. I don't know if I really answered your question. Did you want me to post a sample of a full body depletion workout?

spiderduncan · 08-09-2008, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botch

No. And honestly, I didn't understand what it was or involved for the longest time. When I started to utilize it on this CKD I started to see much better results than I had been. It was really like night and day. You know, maybe if people learned how to utlize the depletion workout and carb timing they would carb up for a full 48+ hours rather than such a short amount of time that I see people doing so regularly (I used to be guilty of this as well). It requires A LOT of carbohydrates for the body to reach maximum glycogen supercompensation and this needs to be achieved my beginning the carb up IMMEDIATELY after you put down that last weight after the full body depletion workout. I think people have a feeling like they are getting "fat" while they carb up because they aren't always making forward progress but the carb up is pertinent to ensure quality in your workouts for the following week. And rest assured if you're cycling your macros correctly then you are not putting on "fat" during the carb up but rather loading up on glycogen.
I'm sorry if I rambled there. I don't know if I really answered your question. Did you want me to post a sample of a full body depletion workout?

No worries Botch. Your explanation is clear. I was on a lowcarb forum when Lyle was writing his first book and was privy to a lot of his writings before they were published. It has been some time since I have low carbed (wife and family prefer carbs). However, I am contemplating another go of it.

**SoCo4Fun** · 08-09-2008, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botch

Did you want me to post a sample of a full body depletion workout?

Would you mind? I'm curious about this myself...

Botch · 08-13-2008, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoCo4Fun

Would you mind? I'm curious about this myself...

Certainly. Here is an example of a workout I used during my last X-factor log. This workout was completed in just under 2 hours. If you don't feel like you're going to throw up during the full body depletion workout then you're not doing something right, lol!

Squat: 185(20) 185(20)

Leg Extensions: 105(20) 105(20)

Good Mornings: 85(20) 95(20)

Leg Curls: 90(20) 90(20)

Single Leg Calf Raise on Leg Press Machine: 170(20) 170(20)

Standing Single Leg Calf Raise: bw(20) bw(20)

Pull-ups: bw(20) bw(20)

1 Arm DB Rows: 40(20) 45(20)

Upright Rows: 60(20) 60(20)

Flat Bench Press: 135(20) 145(12)<--Drop 115(10)

Incline Bench Press: 115(15)<--drop 95(10) 115(12)<--drop 95(8)

Wide Grip Bench Press: 115(18) 115(15) Superset w/
Push ups: bw(10) bw(8)

Hyperextensions: REP OUT bw(25)

DB Overhead Press: 40's(12)<--drop 30's(8)<--drop 20's(6) 30's(12)<--drop 20's(8)

Standing BB Curls: 75(20) 75(18)<--drop 65(8)

Close Grip Bench Press: 95(15)<--drop 85(8) 95(12)<--drop 85(7)<--drop 75(4)

French Press: 50(15)<--drop 40(8) 50(12)<--drop 40(9)

DB Side Lateral Raise: 10's(20) 10's(20)

DB Bent Lateral Raise: 10's(20) 10's(25)

Wrist Curls: REP OUT 30(45)

Sit-up w/ twist: 3x30
Count down abs: crunches(30), leg lifts(25), jack knives(20)

Weights are kept low as the pump just became too much for me at that high of reps to go heavier. The wrist curls are something I would usually never do as I think they hold no value as a strength builder but when the goal is to deplete every last bit of glycogen then even smiling will be helpful during this workout.

**SoCo4Fun** · 08-13-2008, 01:14 PM

Awesome...thanks man.

Distilled Water · 08-13-2008, 01:16 PM

You do them circuit style correct? So you do 2 circuits or what?

Botch · 08-13-2008, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Distilled Water

You do them circuit style correct? So you do 2 circuits or what?

No I don't do them circuit style. I just do straight sets with as little rest between sets as possible. Except when things are listed as supersets, which is something that I change up on a weekly basis.