Poll: HST Training 3 Day Training:

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Your opinion on HST training?

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  1. CDB
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ibanez
    HST just seems to me like linear periodization which has it's drawbacks. I think conjugate periodization would be better a choice, but I guess do whatever you want to.
    I think that's what Lysle McDonald recommends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    1. That is the point.

    2. You said world class athletes, not just world class lifters. I'm am talking about athletes in general. There are many powerlifting DERIVED exercises but the majority of the programs are not powerlifting based at all. for good reason.

    3. Usually its not volume, but CON/ECC time. If I do 16 sets per wotkout but only take 1-2 seconds each rep I am not going to expect much growth.

    4. I think most of the guys that come on this board are geared more towrads bodybuilding than powerlifting so my advice tends to gravitate in that area. They want asthetic results, not to be able to squat 1000lbs. The original post was about HST which is "hypertrophy" specific which tends to more bodybuilding related than powerlifting.


    Size doesn't mean much to me in terms of bodybuilding. I've seen guys 185 with incredible physiques. If I wanted to be 260+ I could do it fairly easily given enough time. Growth is fairly easy and more diet oriented then training oriented. Quality growth OTOH hand is not easy even with the best of diets.
    1. You misunderstood. You can only get so strong from doing nervous system/fiber recruitment training only - we do hypertrophy work as well in the 6-8 range. We also do conditioning and stabilizer muscle work in the 10-20 range. At least powerlifters that aren't training in the stone age...

    2. I figured when I said athletes and powerlifting in the same paragraph you would assume I meant strength centric sports. For a lot of sports only very small amounts of weight training are useful as additional size is detrimental and power developed in weight movements doesn't carry over at all to specialized sports movements...

    3. *shrug* I haven't bothered to familiarize myself with the research behind TUT stuff because in practice it never worked for me (when I first started lifting I was taught to train with a 2:4 con/ecc tempo, and stuck with that for a while), so I can't really discuss that point with you in any proper fashion.

    4. HST is bandied about by some people on the boards as "the super ultimate mega ultra be all and end all training system" (I think bryan pays them ) and so I think people are attracted to it because they think that since a few guys on the boards say it's the best and the guy is referencing journal articles (so it must be backed by science) that it really is that good. There is only one determinant of how effective a training system is - what results does it produce, and properly applied, will the system produce these results consistently? I jumped in to this thread to say that HST was not consistent in its ability to produce results for me, and I know of other people for whom this is also the case, thus I don't believe it is that effective of a training system. As for properly applying it, I followed the template on the HST website to the letter, so in my case I don't know how I could have mis-applied it.

    Quality growth?! Are you referring to some guys who have striations and hard looking muscles, versus other guys who have muscles that appear softer and smoother? I always thought that was just a function of bodyfat and diuretic use...
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    Quote Originally Posted by exnihilo
    1. You misunderstood. You can only get so strong from doing nervous system/fiber recruitment training only - we do hypertrophy work as well in the 6-8 range. We also do conditioning and stabilizer muscle work in the 10-20 range. At least powerlifters that aren't training in the stone age...

    2. I figured when I said athletes and powerlifting in the same paragraph you would assume I meant strength centric sports. For a lot of sports only very small amounts of weight training are useful as additional size is detrimental and power developed in weight movements doesn't carry over at all to specialized sports movements...

    3. *shrug* I haven't bothered to familiarize myself with the research behind TUT stuff because in practice it never worked for me (when I first started lifting I was taught to train with a 2:4 con/ecc tempo, and stuck with that for a while), so I can't really discuss that point with you in any proper fashion.

    4. HST is bandied about by some people on the boards as "the super ultimate mega ultra be all and end all training system" (I think bryan pays them ) and so I think people are attracted to it because they think that since a few guys on the boards say it's the best and the guy is referencing journal articles (so it must be backed by science) that it really is that good. There is only one determinant of how effective a training system is - what results does it produce, and properly applied, will the system produce these results consistently? I jumped in to this thread to say that HST was not consistent in its ability to produce results for me, and I know of other people for whom this is also the case, thus I don't believe it is that effective of a training system. As for properly applying it, I followed the template on the HST website to the letter, so in my case I don't know how I could have mis-applied it.

    Quality growth?! Are you referring to some guys who have striations and hard looking muscles, versus other guys who have muscles that appear softer and smoother? I always thought that was just a function of bodyfat and diuretic use...

    1. Yes but you can get pretty damn strong without ever going to the 6-8 rep range. Just different training.

    2. I understand where you are coming from in terms of sports but they also use hypertrophy specific regiments to increase muscluar endurance (very light weight, high reps). So in essence, it still is a specific training for specific results. You get the benfit of quicker explosive repsonses along with high endurance.

    3. If you're diet doens't correspond with that type of training, you will overtrian fairly easily and just won't grow. Its heavily carb dependent for optimal growth.

    4. I agree, I see those people as well and they are very confused but his articles do have a good bit of truth and are based on research and resulst that do provide optimal growth.

    Quality as in shape. Its the benefit of incorpating different types of hypertrophy which will influence both fiber thickness and nutrient capacity. Increasing nutrient/glycogen capacity faciliates optimal myofibullar growth which will give you a more rounded, full look rather than a thick bulky look with very litte "shape".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    I agree. There is no best one. As long as you have a decent ECC/CON time frame you will grow. I usually start everyone on the programs that the majority will respond to but it sure doens't cover everyone. Some response to lower CON times with increased ECC times (DC training..I still laugh at the thought that he named it after himself). Some respond to lower ECC times but higher volume and some just like a normal CON/ECC ratio with low volume.

    You just have to tinker around and find what works for you and you don't to change routines completely to keep the body guessing. Just a change in rep time is sufficient enough.
    How do you find what works best? Is this something that takes years to figure out, or can you tell fairly quickly? Now that i am not dieting, i want to maximize strength, and size gains and want to see what works best for me..

    ALso this quality muscle you speak of is what i am after
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    Quote Originally Posted by imprezivr6
    How do you find what works best? Is this something that takes years to figure out, or can you tell fairly quickly? Now that i am not dieting, i want to maximize strength, and size gains and want to see what works best for me..

    ALso this quality muscle you speak of is what i am after
    I flip a coin


    Serisously, you start with what works for the majority of people then work it from there. Always start with a foundation that has solid training/nutrition then you can tweak from there. If not you will always be guessing and flip flopping back and forth in which case you will never know what works best in the long run.

    For some it can be short, for some it takes years and years. IT all depends on the individual. For the most part it takes a little while just for the fact that anyone just starting will respond to just about anything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    I flip a coin


    Serisously, you start with what works for the majority of people then work it from there. Always start with a foundation that has solid training/nutrition then you can tweak from there. If not you will always be guessing and flip flopping back and forth in which case you will never know what works best in the long run.

    For some it can be short, for some it takes years and years. IT all depends on the individual. For the most part it takes a little while just for the fact that anyone just starting will respond to just about anything.
    Hmm coin flipping, you may be on to something..

    I am going to pay close attention to my strength progress now, so i should be able to tell whats up pretty soon.. I will say my strength is already up considerably, so i think i should respond well to my current plan.
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    Yes, it generally does go up due to increased growth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    There is also a difference in growth vs. quality growth. Many powerlifterfs grow but their propertions and shape are awful. The growth is thick, bulky and has very little asthetic shape to it.
    Personally, I think this had ALOT (not all) to do with top level powerlifters being born with certain physical features that allow them to move massive weight, moreso than them training in such a manner that they grow out of proportion. I believe they have those proportions b/c they were born that way, for the most part. Of course, doing sumo squats all day long could contribute to large hips [and most of them don't even squat sumo of course], etc, but for the most part, I believe that powerlifters have powerlifter proportions b/c that's their genetic advantage for their sport. I.E. a guy with a sumer long arm will probably have a great deadlift, but, never a great "aesthetically pleasing" look to his arms.

    My .02
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    Their growth has more to do with training then genetic structure. Of course you will have those with genetic advatnges but that type of training will always contribute to a more thick look due to to emphasis on core size/strenth and less on the extremeties. Its a generally accepted fact. Exnilo shows abs with a 39 inch waist for a reason. A powerlifter without core strenght isn't much of a powerlifter. I've actually increased my waist size when I concentrated on more PL'er type exercises a couple years back (especially lower back)

    Actually those with genetic advantages look more like bodybuilders (Pudzianowki) than powerlifters. The majority of powerlifters LOOK like powerlifters because of their training/diet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo

    Actually those with genetic advantages look more like bodybuilders (Pudzianowki) than powerlifters.
    Man he is an animal.. Probally my ideal build..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Their growth has more to do with training then genetic structure. Of course you will have those with genetic advatnges but that type of training will always contribute to a more thick look due to to emphasis on core size/strenth and less on the extremeties. Its a generally accepted fact. Exnilo shows abs with a 39 inch waist for a reason. A powerlifter without core strenght isn't much of a powerlifter. I've actually increased my waist size when I concentrated on more PL'er type exercises a couple years back (especially lower back)

    Actually those with genetic advantages look more like bodybuilders (Pudzianowki) than powerlifters. The majority of powerlifters LOOK like powerlifters because of their training/diet.
    Pudz is the exception to the rule. Most of these guys are wide in the hips (great for leg power).

    Exnihilo would have a tiny waist had his bone structure allowed him to. If you look, you can see the ridge of his pelvic girdle underneath his obliques. His midscection (mid-abdomen above the bellybutton) is rather narrow.

    Ask exnihilo, I'm sure he will say he always had wide hips...waaaay before he started PLing. I do understand that PLers can get wider hips bc of how they train, though. But, I don't believe some guy with a twig waist is EVER going to be a great PLer (of course, there will be exceptions)

    PLers can develope like BBers if their genetic allow for it...i.e. Kyle....he trains ONLY for PL and has a 930 squat, a 715 bench, and a 745 dead.

    His genetics allow him to keep good proportions, despite training style. However, I'm sure thta if he followed a BB routine, he would be even more aesthetically pleasing, but, my piont is, it's genetic for the most part.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00

    PLers can develope like BBers if their genetic allow for it...i.e. Kyle....he trains ONLY for PL and has a 930 squat, a 715 bench, and a 745 dead.
    Damn. sorry to take this OT but do you know his height and weight? That is my ideal build..
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    Hes about 5'10ish and 242 lbs....
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    Oh, and only 23yrs old hahha
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
    Pudz is the exception to the rule. Most of these guys are wide in the hips (great for leg power).

    Exnihilo would have a tiny waist had his bone structure allowed him to. If you look, you can see the ridge of his pelvic girdle underneath his obliques. His midscection (mid-abdomen above the bellybutton) is rather narrow.

    Ask exnihilo, I'm sure he will say he always had wide hips...waaaay before he started PLing. I do understand that PLers can get wider hips bc of how they train, though. But, I don't believe some guy with a twig waist is EVER going to be a great PLer (of course, there will be exceptions)

    PLers can develope like BBers if their genetic allow for it...i.e. Kyle....he trains ONLY for PL and has a 930 squat, a 715 bench, and a 745 dead.

    His genetics allow him to keep good proportions, despite training style. However, I'm sure thta if he followed a BB routine, he would be even more aesthetically pleasing, but, my piont is, it's genetic for the most part.

    The exception to the rule are the genetic elite. Many of these guy do NOT have wide hips at all.

    You seem to be missing the point altogether. Of course there will be be people with wider hips but the trianing in itself develops muscle in an around the core area making their waist thicker all around. The type of growth is purely myofibullar will little to no sarcoplasmic growth at all. THis isn't a myth. Its training fact. I have experienced it, trained people who have experienced and have seen it over the years with many people. I know plenty of powerlifters that don't have wide hips (bones strucutre) at all and throw up some pretty impressive weight due to core strength. Joey Gallaway is a prime example. The guy lifts extraordinary amounts of weight and is a stick. (185lbs soaking wet)


    "PLers can develope like BBers if their genetic allow for it...i.e. Kyle....he trains ONLY for PL and has a 930 squat, a 715 bench, and a 745 dead.

    His genetics allow him to keep good proportions, despite training style. However, I'm sure thta if he followed a BB routine, he would be even more aesthetically pleasing, but, my piont is, it's genetic for the most part.
    "


    That is exactly what I said before. The genetic elite look more like bodybuilders than powerlifters. THe majority of powerlifters don't look like powerlifters because of genetics, its because of the years of trianing/nutrition that builds ups the core (along with ****ty diets). You can easily have a thick waist with small hips. Svend Karlsen doesn't have a large bone structure (was a bodybuilder). Magnus Samuelson has relatively thin hips but his waist is just as larger or even larger. You can even take it to the women's side with Jill Mills. She looks more like a bodybuilder than powerlifter. Many of the top level athletes do not have those qualities you state. Its quite the opposite.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
    Hes about 5'10ish and 242 lbs....
    Ahh not bad at all.. If i just gain50lbs of LBM then i am good to go
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    People with wide hips are undoubtedly better squatters, it just has to do with hip joint angles and muscle leverages. This is also true for people who pull sumo. If you squat narrow (which very few people can make work) or pull conventional the wide hips don't help you that much.

    Generally, wide hips translate into more force generated when the hip is mostly flexed and the angle of the knee is 30-45+ degrees from the central plane of the body.

    Unless your sport requires that sort of a position (football lineman where you need a wide base for balance, that sort of thing) you can just adjust your technique to bring your knees more towards the plane of your body and utilize the musculature of your back more, it's possible to get pretty similar results out of either.

    No joke about the thick waist though lol. I can see my self in a couple of years at like 8-9% bodyfat with a 38" waist
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    Quote Originally Posted by exnihilo

    No joke about the thick waist though lol. I can see my self in a couple of years at like 8-9% bodyfat with a 38" waist
    Hey, keep the low bf% to us bodybuilders. You don't want to be like us.



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    Haha, if I can do it without getting weak it's all legit man

    The weakness is what I'm trying not to emulate

    Edit: And I'll still eat oreos and bear claws from time to time
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    No need to get weak. Just eat right and change your training style a bit and you could hit that mark without any significant strength loss at all. I've cut people down while they gained strength (shameless pimping plug)



    You seem to believe too many myths about BB'ers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    No need to get weak. Just eat right and change your training style a bit and you could hit that mark without any significant strength loss at all. I've cut people down while they gained strength (shameless pimping plug)



    You seem to believe too many myths about BB'ers.
    There's a difference between limit strength and strength endurance though - limit strength is what I want to keep The veggies have made a huge difference though, I really must say, I feel like 10x better since I got on them.
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    All I have to say is Pudz is the ****ing man!
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    Quote Originally Posted by exnihilo
    There's a difference between limit strength and strength endurance though - limit strength is what I want to keep The veggies have made a huge difference though, I really must say, I feel like 10x better since I got on them.
    I know and it still applies. It doesn't take much to maintain it given the diet is right and certain exercises/training are maintained.
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    All I still have to say is Bobo is the ****ing man.

    lol
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    Why thank you
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Why thank you
    Lol. you prick

    hah
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    The exception to the rule are the genetic elite. Many of these guy do NOT have wide hips at all.

    You seem to be missing the point altogether. Of course there will be be people with wider hips but the trianing in itself develops muscle in an around the core area making their waist thicker all around. The type of growth is purely myofibullar will little to no sarcoplasmic growth at all. THis isn't a myth. Its training fact. I have experienced it, trained people who have experienced and have seen it over the years with many people. I know plenty of powerlifters that don't have wide hips (bones strucutre) at all and throw up some pretty impressive weight due to core strength. Joey Gallaway is a prime example. The guy lifts extraordinary amounts of weight and is a stick. (185lbs soaking wet)


    "PLers can develope like BBers if their genetic allow for it...i.e. Kyle....he trains ONLY for PL and has a 930 squat, a 715 bench, and a 745 dead.

    His genetics allow him to keep good proportions, despite training style. However, I'm sure thta if he followed a BB routine, he would be even more aesthetically pleasing, but, my piont is, it's genetic for the most part.
    "


    That is exactly what I said before. The genetic elite look more like bodybuilders than powerlifters. THe majority of powerlifters don't look like powerlifters because of genetics, its because of the years of trianing/nutrition that builds ups the core (along with ****ty diets). You can easily have a thick waist with small hips. Svend Karlsen doesn't have a large bone structure (was a bodybuilder). Magnus Samuelson has relatively thin hips but his waist is just as larger or even larger. You can even take it to the women's side with Jill Mills. She looks more like a bodybuilder than powerlifter. Many of the top level athletes do not have those qualities you state. Its quite the opposite.
    Okay, we must not be understanding each other.

    You said PLers are wide b/c of how they train, I said, it has more to do with genetics.

    Then, I show you a picture of Kyle, and elite Pler, and you say that was your point. Kyle trains like a Pler and DOES NOT have wide hips and IS NOT developing out of proportion. I say, that's b/c of his genetics, despite his PL routine (which is 100% PL). I did that in order to emphasize my point that genetics have more to do with PLer proportions (especially squatters / dlers) than their training routine does.

    So, my point in bringing a pic of kyle was to say that training like a powerlifter isn't what causes people to have wide hips, it's the fact that they were born with wide hips that makes them have wide hips, lol. (and thus, fit for two of the 3 PL movements).

    Many great squatters and DLers have wide hips. Now, you can assume that they have wide hips b/c they squat or DL alot, or you can assume they're great squatters / DLers b/c their genetics allow it (including the wide hips--which, as an PLers exhinilo confirms help the lifter for those two exercises).

    I never said there weren't genetically gifted PLers with great proportions, i just said that the training style has less to do with most elite PLers developing a certain way than their genetics.

    I'm not going to deny that sometimes you see PLer with ridiculous biceps and things b/c they do'nt train them, that does happen--and in that case, that would be a routine that makes a PLer out of proportion (or adds to the problem). But, I'm sure that if you took many of the guys you see in PL with wide hips, and had them traing BBers style, you would see that their proportions stay similar. There WOULD be improvement, but ultimately, their genetics would keep their hips wide.

    I've got a cousin who was born to PL (yet he doesn't). He doesn't even DL and he pulled 600lbs not that long ago. Hell, he doesn't even work his legs--he just runs in the Marines. He's got a big ass, legs (about 30" with veins running through them at 6' tall), and wide hips--naturally--and always has. There is nothing you could do, short of reconstructive surgery that I'm sure most doctors wouldn't dare to do, that could change the way he is built.

    He could do what he's trying to do, and focus on his back and shoulders to make up for it, but you can still tell. He could easily be an elite PLer, but he could never be an elite BBer, not because of how he trains, but because of how he was born.

    (Can you tell, I lie on the genetics side of the fence hahaa)
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
    Okay, we must not be understanding each other.

    You said PLers are wide b/c of how they train, I said, it has more to do with genetics.

    Then, I show you a picture of Kyle, and elite Pler, and you say that was your point. Kyle trains like a Pler and DOES NOT have wide hips and IS NOT developing out of proportion. I say, that's b/c of his genetics, despite his PL routine (which is 100% PL). I did that in order to emphasize my point that genetics have more to do with PLer proportions (especially squatters / dlers) than their training routine does.

    So, my point in bringing a pic of kyle was to say that training like a powerlifter isn't what causes people to have wide hips, it's the fact that they were born with wide hips that makes them have wide hips, lol. (and thus, fit for two of the 3 PL movements).

    Many great squatters and DLers have wide hips. Now, you can assume that they have wide hips b/c they squat or DL alot, or you can assume they're great squatters / DLers b/c their genetics allow it (including the wide hips--which, as an PLers exhinilo confirms help the lifter for those two exercises).

    I never said there weren't genetically gifted PLers with great proportions, i just said that the training style has less to do with most elite PLers developing a certain way than their genetics.

    I'm not going to deny that sometimes you see PLer with ridiculous biceps and things b/c they do'nt train them, that does happen--and in that case, that would be a routine that makes a PLer out of proportion (or adds to the problem). But, I'm sure that if you took many of the guys you see in PL with wide hips, and had them traing BBers style, you would see that their proportions stay similar. There WOULD be improvement, but ultimately, their genetics would keep their hips wide.

    I've got a cousin who was born to PL (yet he doesn't). He doesn't even DL and he pulled 600lbs not that long ago. Hell, he doesn't even work his legs--he just runs in the Marines. He's got a big ass, legs (about 30" with veins running through them at 6' tall), and wide hips--naturally--and always has. There is nothing you could do, short of reconstructive surgery that I'm sure most doctors wouldn't dare to do, that could change the way he is built.

    He could do what he's trying to do, and focus on his back and shoulders to make up for it, but you can still tell. He could easily be an elite PLer, but he could never be an elite BBer, not because of how he trains, but because of how he was born.

    (Can you tell, I lie on the genetics side of the fence hahaa)

    Its real simple. PL'er are wide in the waist in terms of MUSCLE growth because of the way they train. The discussion was muscle growth, not bone strucuture and hip width. If they have wide hips or not, they still will develop a more thick look around the midsection (abs, obliques, iliocastalis, longissimus) because of the core training.

    I could care less about the bone structure. Their training will cuase them to increase size more in the core areas and also upper body with less growth to the extremties.

    This is widely known FACT in every Exercise and Strenght Training Program. For you to argue any of those point is completely ridiculous. ( I really hope you're not)

    This is what I said from the beginning.

    "There is also a difference in growth vs. quality growth. Many powerlifterfs grow but their propertions and shape are awful. The growth is thick, bulky and has very little asthetic shape to it."

    THIs was a response to exnilo saying he could gain a good amount off of powerlifting routines. The growth is in areas many bodybuilders don't want growth around (they don't want large midsections). Being heavily dependent on PL'ing will encourgage growth in that area. Bodybulders want quality growth (equally proportionate in both thickness and fullness) everywhere, not just around the core.

    Are some people born with a wider hips therefor adpat better to powerlifting? OF course but I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about the results of years of training in a powerlifting routine and its influence on CORE growth and lack of myofibullar and sarcoplasmic growth in their extremeties.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00

    I'm not going to deny that sometimes you see PLer with ridiculous biceps and things b/c they do'nt train them, that does happen--and in that case, that would be a routine that makes a PLer out of proportion (or adds to the problem). But, I'm sure that if you took many of the guys you see in PL with wide hips, and had them traing BBers style, you would see that their proportions stay similar. There WOULD be improvement, but ultimately, their genetics would keep their hips wide.

    The majoroty of PL'er are this way. Its not just sometimes, its the majority of the time. I've seen it so many times in gyms up and down the east coast (mainly from Boston, New York, Philly). These guys could less about proportion and the certainly don't do curls and rope pushdowns. THeir diets are awful, they consume a large amount of calories which only encourages both muscle anf fat gain in the midsection.

    If they stopped training that way, incorporated a BB'ing type routine and wathced their diet of course they could change their proportions by a large margin. Its not like that have a 12 inch difference in hip width. Its a 3-6 inch MAX.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
    (Can you tell, I lie on the genetics side of the fence hahaa)
    I've had clients who though that way as well. For the most part, they realize its more of an excuse than anything. Genetics play a role in probably 1% of 1% of 1% of the elite. In other words, the very TOP. People use it as a crutch all to often.

    Look at my before pic and that bird chest, no shoulders and sticks for arms
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    For me I've found that genetics determine where you start, and what you respond to, and to a very small degree how far you can go. I didn't start insanely strong and a lot of the top PLs didn't, I respond to a lot of things pretty well but some guys can do 3 sets of 10 reps forever and keep getting bigger and stronger - it wasn't until I started training westside that my gains started to skyrocket, and the gear has just kicked that up a notch... I fully expect to be benching over ~650, squatting 900 and deadlifting 750-800 within 2-3 years if I don't get injured or have a major lifestyle issue that prevents me from training balls to the wall. It's not that I'm super gifted (I would consider my genes well above average for size and strength, nothing phenominal though), it's the combination of hard work, an excellent routine/coaching and fairly moderate use of juice (I make a lot of jokes about being a juice whore - and my last cycle was big - but I really haven't been using for that long, nor that heavily before recently). That's all you need. Since I've learned to cook healthy and make it taste good I'm sure things will work out that much better too... Let that be a lesson - optimize all your variables, make it your life, be smart, and you will succeed

    Oh, I do think kyle's small waist would probably be ridiculously small if he trained with less heavy core-involving movements... But who wants to have to wear clown pants ? If my waist gets any smaller my thighs won't fit in BAGGY fit genes I can't imagine people with naturally small waists who are very lean and muscular at the same time - that'd be horrible
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    Yeah, people stare at us like freaks. Its a tough life.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    .......
    Eh, I'm not gonna get into the details anymore. I think we're on the same page for the most part.

    Its just that your using the word "aweful" to describe the physique of PLers kinda threw me off b/c IMHO you can have a good physique as a PLer, with a good diet (i.e. kyle, mariusz, etc.).

    Anway, I'd say we're probably kinda close to the same page...i think if you took a PL routine and slightly modified it, you can have a damn good BB routine and you won't look like an out of proportion freak...my .02...
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    Bobo is still a prick
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    heh, I think PL routines are great for packing on size Not too concerned about symmetry, if I were I'd just change my exercise selection a little.

    I will say thought that having done PL training for a while I don't get the stupidly big pumps anymore I used to get when I did more high rep work, even if I do high rep work now. Doesn't bother me really
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    Quote Originally Posted by houseman
    Bobo is still a prick

    And houseman is going to get banned.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    And houseman is going to get banned.
    Hey now!

    I'm actually surprised that did happen about 5 mins after I joined here.

    lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by exnihilo
    heh, I think PL routines are great for packing on size Not too concerned about symmetry, if I were I'd just change my exercise selection a little.

    I will say thought that having done PL training for a while I don't get the stupidly big pumps anymore I used to get when I did more high rep work, even if I do high rep work now. Doesn't bother me really
    Yeah, those pumps are just awful.

    The more you criticize bodybuilders....the more you...





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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Yeah, those pumps are just awful.

    The more you criticize bodybuilders....the more you...





    The only criticism that's 100% serious is the underwear/shaving/fake tan/posing criticism the rest are just jabs at my smaller, prettier, less powerful brothers in iron - I think it's a healthy exchange.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exnihilo
    The only criticism that's 100% serious is the underwear/shaving/fake tan/posing criticism the rest are just jabs at my smaller, prettier, less powerful brothers in iron - I think it's a healthy exchange.
    You look tan in your avatar, you are showing you "abs" and you would probably pose if you didn't hold that camera.

    If you love PL'ing, get a pic of you squatting a car or something. The one you have now looks more like a bodybuilding avatar

    Oh how the truth comes out when denial is at its peak!!!







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