Test E 500mg/week with .2mg arimidex EOD... big hinder in gains?

[BCH13]

This is my first cycle. I'm running test enanthate @ 500mg/week for 13 weeks. I had arimidex on hand in case of any signs of gyno, as well as nolva/clomid for my PCT. On day 10 (yes, I realize this is very early in a test E cycle to notice any sides), my left nipple got very sensitive and started itching; I did what many paranoid first-timers do... panicked and took .5mg adex... itchiness/sensitivity went away quickly... then I was running .3mg EOD... got bad joint pain in the gym and was shooting blanks (too low estrogen; yes, I realize I am stating the obvious). I went off it all together for a few days until my joint pain went away. I re-started at .15mg EOD and noticed slight sensitivity again on off days... I am now running .2mg/EOD and it seems to be just right. I am ending week 6, and I haven't noticed an insane increase in strength; all of my main lifts have gone up significantly, as well as my weight/size, but I still haven't had the feeling I did with my first pin, which included deca... here is the story (pulled from another thread of mine)...

This is from a thread I previously posted::

My very first pin was in the beginning of May... my brother in law was showing me how to pin, and I thought I was ready for my first cycle... anyways, I pinned .5ml deca (150mg) and .5ml of test e (150mg), before realizing I needed to do so much more research and I really had no idea what I was getting myself into. I was under the impression my brother in law knew enough about cycling that I could use his advice and run a safe, successful cycle.

Point of this story: the few lifts I had about 10-14 days after this first pin were... INSANE. I mean absolutely insane. I felt incredibly strong and I could have easily hurt myself, had I not known my body/strength and how much I should be lifting. Since this first pin (well, with about a 6 week break in between) I have been running my first cycle of 500mg/week test e (alone). I waited about a month and a half before starting my cycle; I did the necessary research I should have done before that very first pin. Anyways, I have not felt the same insane strength in the gym, and I am in the middle of my 4th week of test e. Does this mean my body reacts extremely well to Deca? Or, did I "waste" my first cycle from a simple 150mg deca/150mg test e pin because of the break I took before starting my cycle? Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.

Do I need to be more patient? Am I just expecting more from 500mg of test E than I should? Am I killing too much estrogen with the a-dex? I understand test e gives slower gains, but I haven't had that godly/cheater feeling in the gym since that first deca/test pin.

My lifts: (5/3/1 program)

First pin: 6/22/11

Bench:
07/05/11 - 245x9
07/12/11 - 255x7
07/19/11 - 275x5
07/26/11 - 295x3

Squats:
07/06/11 - 285x12
07/13/11 - 305x11
07/20/11 - 325x7
07/27/11 - 355x4

Military:
07/01/11 - 155x8
07/09/11 - 165x6
07/16/11 - 175x5
07/23/11 - 165x9

Not posting deadlifts because I have had trouble with lower back pumps (not from the test e, but in general since I started deadlifting again)... I've tried 5-7g of taurine, but as long as I am doing high reps, it becomes a rock. I tried increasing reps and decreasing weight... but my grip gave out... chalk isn't allowed in my gym. Last deadlift (07/10/11) was 305x6.

I'm 5'7, ~210lbs [edit] (started at ~199, 6 [edit] weeks ago), and my BF has remained about the same. I am taking in about 4,500-5,000 calories a day, with around 300-330g protein. I'm not going for a clean bulk, so I am eating some crappy food (i.e. calamari, french fries on occasion with my burgers, wings, some fried chicken), but also eating a lot of steak, lean ground beef, chicken, fish, etc. I am also making sure I have enough calories (hard during the day, working in an office where I can't leave my desk much because I'm always busy/hectic) through protein shakes w/ mass gainer (optimum serious mass).

I still have the deca on hand, but I only wanted to run one aas for my first cycle. BUT, I have a strong feeling the deca is what my body responded well to. Would it be incredibly stupid to throw deca into the mix in the middle of my cycle (300mg/week for weeks 7-11; the last two weeks 12-13 will be test only)?

Should I drop the a-dex and switch to nolva for gyno prevention to reduce the loss in gains (if the a-dex is even causing it)?

Should I increase the test e to 600mg/week?


ANY thoughts, much appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Kimber.45]

Here is a great article about running AI's While ON cycle. It disspells the myth that Arimidex will inhibit gains. Very good read, so thought it would help.

steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroid-forum/77246-do-ais-inhibit-gains-cycle.html

(just add the three w's before "steroidology") - I just joined yet and cannot post links

 

[EasyEJL]

it would be a waste of the deca to run it that short, and if you think that 11lbs in 6 weeks without fat gain isn't good progress then you won't be satisfied no matter what you do. That puts you right about 25 lean pounds in your 13 weeks.

 

[BCH13]

Here is a great article about running AI's While ON cycle. It disspells the myth that Arimidex will inhibit gains. Very good read, so thought it would help.

steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroid-forum/77246-do-ais-inhibit-gains-cycle.html

(just add the three w's before "steroidology") - I just joined yet and cannot post links

Great read. Thanks for the post! I have been off the a-dex for 4 days now, and I already have some serious bloating in my face...

... heading to my cabinet right now...

 

[BCH13]

it would be a waste of the deca to run it that short, and if you think that 11lbs in 6 weeks without fat gain isn't good progress then you won't be satisfied no matter what you do. That puts you right about 25 lean pounds in your 13 weeks.

I figured it would be a waste... I'll save it for another cycle. Well, I don't think all 11lbs is lbm... I think a bit of it is water weight (~206lbs in the morning, ~210lbs before bed)... I'd say it is probably closer to 6-8lbs lbm. I know 1-1.33lbs/week is still good. I guess I am focusing too much on my actual strength gains, and no my lbm gains (mainly, I thought my bench would have gone up more/quicker). I continue to expect to get into the gym and have that same insane strength I felt after that first pin with deca.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[BCH13]

I get BAD joint pain from Arimidex too. I recommend trying Aromasin. So much nicer. It is also a suicide inhibitor meaning that once it binds with the aromatise enzyme, it bonds for the life of the enzyme. Arimidex can get knocked off. Only thing is, you have to be careful with Aromasin as it is much stronger than Arimidex. Its more expensive too but you won't need as much of it. Just an idea. Arimidex ****ed my joints up so bad that i had to stop training for a while. No probs with Aromasin at all!

How were you dosing the arimidex? I got real bad joint pain for a few days, backed it off to .2mg EOD and issues went away completely.

I do have aromasin on hand, but I'd rather stick with arimidex for the remainder of this cycle. Also, how do you dose your aromasin? Thanks.

 

[EasyEJL]

I figured it would be a waste... I'll save it for another cycle. Well, I don't think all 11lbs is lbm... I think a bit of it is water weight (~206lbs in the morning, ~210lbs before bed)... I'd say it is probably closer to 6-8lbs lbm. I know 1-1.33lbs/week is still good. I guess I am focusing too much on my actual strength gains, and no my lbm gains (mainly, I thought my bench would have gone up more/quicker). I continue to expect to get into the gym and have that same insane strength I felt after that first pin with deca.

Thanks for the reply.

Well, deca is almost non-androgenic so you wouldn't have gotten strength gains from it. Probably was a short term start of cycle free testosterone spike before shbg started to rise or DHT spike.

 

[CoorsLight126]

If you were shooting blanks it was not from that arimadex, thats such a low amount it wouldnt have affected anything in that regard. On the joint pain, again most likely not from anti e's, try upping your water intake. Aromasyn is a killer anti e, best thing you could run IMO. You dont really need aromasyn AND arimadex at the same time, I'd just stick with 10 ed on aromasyn and save my arimadex for PCT. No reason to go to 600mg/wk on test, its your first cycle and 500/wk is perfect. On the deca, instead of going 300/wk for 5 wks, I'd drop it to 150/wk and run it 10 wks. Even at only 150/wk it will help your joints and give you a little kick. If there was away to modify the cycle and run your test and deca alongside each other for 10 wks I'd do that (that is if I didnt have anymore $$ to spend right now) Even if you had to drop your test down a little to 300/wk and deca at 150, run it 10 more wks with both together

 

[BCH13]

i dosed arimidex .5mg eod. then cut back to .25mg eod. I believe i was just super sensitive to it. i am taking about 10mg of Aromasin ED right now. does the trick great. i have never been this dry on cycle before.

Even at .25mg EOD for a-dex, your joints still got really bad? Did you continue to run the a-dex after you already felt the joint pain? How long were you out of training for?


Well, a-dex has more sides, but I already had it on hand for the start of my cycle... I now have aromasin on hand, but would it be fine to switch over in the middle of my cycle? I have also noticed more feeling like my muscles are going to cramp, but they don't actually cramp. It's sort of hard to explain... but I'm willing to try the aromasin. How does 10mg ED compare to an arimidex dose?

Thanks.

 

[BCH13]

If you were shooting blanks it was not from that arimadex, thats such a low amount it wouldnt have affected anything in that regard. On the joint pain, again most likely not from anti e's, try upping your water intake.

I already have an above average sex drive... and the test has me going crazy. I've been having sex with my wife at least twice a day, and my right hand at least another 2... obviously my loads won't be huge because of this alone, but when I started to feel the joint pain from the a-dex... I also started with the blanks... your load has a lot to do with estrogen levels. At least according to what I've read. As soon as I cut the a-dex back... joint pains were gone, and loads were back. I'm drinking 1.5-2 gallons of water a day; my urine is constantly clear (at least once/hour), except for my multi-vitamin piss... I don't think it's from lack of water intake.

Aromasyn is a killer anti e, best thing you could run IMO. You dont really need aromasyn AND arimadex at the same time, I'd just stick with 10 ed on aromasyn and save my arimadex for PCT.

10mg ed for the aromasin; how would you compare this to a a-dex dose? Also, why run a-dex during PCT, rather than aromisin straight through? Sorry, not questioning you, just wondering.

No reason to go to 600mg/wk on test, its your first cycle and 500/wk is perfect. On the deca, instead of going 300/wk for 5 wks, I'd drop it to 150/wk and run it 10 wks. Even at only 150/wk it will help your joints and give you a little kick. If there was away to modify the cycle and run your test and deca alongside each other for 10 wks I'd do that (that is if I didnt have anymore $$ to spend right now) Even if you had to drop your test down a little to 300/wk and deca at 150, run it 10 more wks with both together

Alright. Well, I have 9ml of 300mg/ml test e left, and 20 ml of 300mg/ml deca. Money isn't an issue, but my source is; his 9 year old son is having open heart surgery, and I'm not trying to bother him about some test right now. I don't know anyone else to get it from. With the gear I have right now... here's how I could run it...

Week 7: 300 test/150 deca
Week 8: 300 test/150 deca
Week 9: 300 test/150 deca
Week 10: 300 test/150 deca
Week 11: 300 test/150 deca
Week 12: 300 test/150 deca
Week 13: 300 test/150 deca
Week 14: 300 test
Week 15: 300 test

My concerns: Will my PCT look the same for deca/test? I had planned on running Nolva/Clomid, and possibly clenbuterol. What are my chances of seeing deca sides from 150mg/week? I would also have to order prami or caber for deca gyno prevention, right?

Or, I could just save the deca for my next cycle at the beginning of next year. At any rate, I really appreciate the post. Thanks.

 

[BCH13]

good **** here. BUT arimidex is know for joint pain in some. it is a common side effect. I ran it through my first cycle with pain and half my second. as soon as i dropped it, golden. I was taking a **** load of Chondrodant, MSM, and Glucosamine. it helped a lot but now i take nothing because i dropped Adex.

Taking all 3, and I still had terrible joint pain when I was running higher dose of the a-dex. I usually do weighted dips... sets of +90x8... I couldn't do my warmup (+no weight) without ridiculous joint pain. It was horrible. Took 4 days off from it, and my joints were back to normal.

 

[fueledpassion]

A cheaper version of Aromasin is Formestane. Doesn't work quite as well but you can get it for $22 per bottle. Buy yourself 3 of those and run 8 pumps/day which is about 200mg/day. That should keep water weight down and could possibly help with libido. Form is also a suicide inhibitor so no worries about estrogen rebound. You can quit suicide inhibitors cold turkey without sides..

 

[Kimber.45]

Mod edit: read the rules

 

[BCH13]

Mod edit: read the rules

I already have aromisin on hand. Should I drop the a-dex and switch to 10mg/ED aromasin?


Opinions?

 

[gymrat827]

If you were shooting blanks it was not from that arimadex, thats such a low amount it wouldnt have affected anything in that regard. On the joint pain, again most likely not from anti e's, try upping your water intake. Aromasyn is a killer anti e, best thing you could run IMO. You dont really need aromasyn AND arimadex at the same time, I'd just stick with 10 ed on aromasyn and save my arimadex for PCT. No reason to go to 600mg/wk on test, its your first cycle and 500/wk is perfect. On the deca, instead of going 300/wk for 5 wks, I'd drop it to 150/wk and run it 10 wks. Even at only 150/wk it will help your joints and give you a little kick. If there was away to modify the cycle and run your test and deca alongside each other for 10 wks I'd do that (that is if I didnt have anymore $$ to spend right now) Even if you had to drop your test down a little to 300/wk and deca at 150, run it 10 more wks with both together

x2, on the advice

 

[gymrat827]

forged joint if they get to be an issue.

 

[CoorsLight126]

I already have aromisin on hand. Should I drop the a-dex and switch to 10mg/ED aromasin?


Opinions?

I would, the reason I propose running aromasyn throughout the cycle and arimadex for PCT is because out of the 2 of them the aromasyn is more effective at keeping your water weight down which will keep you tighter on cycle. The aromasyn also hangs around longer in your system. Then you use the arimadex to keep estrogen rebound down during your PCT and hopefully when your levels return to normal range you'll keep bloat to a minimum. Its just not necessary to take them both at the same time w/ only 500mg/wk of test. Your wasting it

 

[BCH13]

I would, the reason I propose running aromasyn throughout the cycle and arimadex for PCT is because out of the 2 of them the aromasyn is more effective at keeping your water weight down which will keep you tighter on cycle. The aromasyn also hangs around longer in your system. Then you use the arimadex to keep estrogen rebound down during your PCT and hopefully when your levels return to normal range you'll keep bloat to a minimum. Its just not necessary to take them both at the same time w/ only 500mg/wk of test. Your wasting it

Alright. Tonight would be me a-dex dose, so I will switch it to 10mg of aromasin.

Question: My aromasin has been sitting in my cabinet for about 6 weeks now... and it looks almost like it separated... kind of a milky film on the bottom, plain liquid on top... I shook and and it mixed... entire thing looks kind of milky/gloomy... is this normal? I got it from a very reputable place; same place I got my other research supplies. Just want to make sure this is normal before I go taking it... none of the clomid, nolva, a-dex, etc. had the milky/opaque look to them. Thanks again for the help.

 

[Kimber.45]

I would, the reason I propose running aromasyn throughout the cycle and arimadex for PCT is because out of the 2 of them the aromasyn is more effective at keeping your water weight down which will keep you tighter on cycle. The aromasyn also hangs around longer in your system. Then you use the arimadex to keep estrogen rebound down during your PCT and hopefully when your levels return to normal range you'll keep bloat to a minimum. Its just not necessary to take them both at the same time w/ only 500mg/wk of test. Your wasting it

Good choice switching to the exemestane - a-dex should never be used with Nolva for PCT - I would only use a-dex while ON cycle to control bloat. Since type II AI's "compete" that means Nolva will reduce the blood plasma levels of Arimidex. So you are thowing your money down the drain using A-dex, as Nolva significantly reduces its effectiveness.

 

[BCH13]

I keep mine in the fridge although it is not necessary. as long as you shake it, you get a homogeneous mixture, youre find. think of crushing a pill and putting it into a liquid solution. even if the pill falls out of solution, as long as you shake the bottle, you still get the pill (in a controlled amount) in your system. Most of what i have falls out of solution. Just shake it. Its fine.

Yeah, everything mixes fine when I shake it. Just making sure. Good analogy. Thanks for the post.


Also, I don't need to taper off of only .2mg/a-dex do I? It is probably a really stupid question, but I want to make sure I can cut it cold turkey and make the swap to the aromasin (which I've already done) with no issues.

 

[Kimber.45]

Cut it cold turkey! mmmmmmmmmmm........ t u r k e y :burger: <<< that's supposed to be a turkey burger

 

[BCH13]

Good choice switching to the exemestane - a-dex should never be used with Nolva for PCT - I would only use a-dex while ON cycle to control bloat. Since type II AI's "compete" that means Nolva will reduce the blood plasma levels of Arimidex. So you are thowing your money down the drain using A-dex, as Nolva significantly reduces its effectiveness.

Good to know. Thanks Kimber.

 

[BCH13]

Cut it cold turkey! mmmmmmmmmmm........ t u r k e y :burger: <<< that's supposed to be a turkey burger

Haha. Thanks. Appreciate it.

 

[Kimber.45]

Here is some info I posted on another thread so everyone is 100% clear about Aromasin, A-dex (Type I, Type II AI), and Tamoxifen and Toremifen (SERMs)- and which to use for PCT or for ON CYCLE...

 

[Kimber.45]

"...Well, it is proven that type II (non-steroidal) AI's actually lose their potency when combined with a SERM, so if you took Letro with Nolva, the effects of Letro would be "watered" down to what the effects of Arimidex would be by itself. I believe Letro blobks about 95%+ of all new estrogen in the body, but combined with Nolva, maybe a little more than half that. And Adex alone will block about 50-60% estrogen in the body, but when combined with Nolva, about 20-30%. So you are basically throwing your money away. But since Aromasin is a type I (steroidal) AI, then it will not interfere with nolva and permanently block the free estrogen rebounding in your system, preventing attachment to the receptors at a 60-80% rate with or without the Nolva. So Nolva will do its job with breasts affinity and Aromasin with everything else. That, IMO is the most effective and efficient way to go about it.

 

[Kimber.45]

Sources:
"Nolvadex will lower the levels of both Letrozole and Arimidex in your system" according to The Journal of Steroid Biochemistry and Molecular Biology Volume 79.
"You won’t experience lower blood plasma levels of Aromasin because of use of Nolvadex. You will not build up a tolerance to Aromasin due to the previous use of a type II AI (letro, a-dex) - so immediate switch-over is ok" according to Volume 9, issue 2 of The Oncologist Journal.

I don't want to make it seem like I am just mumbling BS - I am currently writing my Case Paper on the myths of steroid use and have a TON of sources to back myself up.

 

[Kimber.45]

"I would run Tamoxifen rather than Toremifene, and Aromasin rather than A-dex during PCT. ON CYCLE, if bloating symptoms occurred, I would run non-steroidal Arimidex. ON CYCLE if gyno symptoms occurred, I would run Toremifene as it is a bit easier on your liver, and effective at preventing permanent binding to your breast tissue. Nolva is still the better SERM for PCT ss long as you are healthy, because it will elevate your LH much quicker than Torem and speed up recovery. So use Nolva as your trusted SERM and Aromasin as your trusted AI for PCT only."

 

[EasyEJL]

Sources:
"Nolvadex will lower the levels of both Letrozole and Arimidex in your system" according to The Journal of Steroid Biochemistry and Molecular Biology Volume 79.
"You won’t experience lower blood plasma levels of Aromasin because of use of Nolvadex. You will not build up a tolerance to Aromasin due to the previous use of a type II AI (letro, a-dex) - so immediate switch-over is ok" according to Volume 9, issue 2 of The Oncologist Journal.

I don't want to make it seem like I am just mumbling BS - I am currently writing my Case Paper on the myths of steroid use and have a TON of sources to back myself up.

can you post links to the actual studies or articles on any of these? I primarily ask because both of those are written more as though they are opinions rather than how a scientific study would normally word the same thing.

 

[Kimber.45]

Here is the link to the Oncologist journal: h t t p : / / theoncologist . alphamedpress . org / content / 9 / 2 / 126 . full (without spaces)

I actually have the Biochem and Molecular Bio Journals from my college's library (U of Toledo) - so I am just summarizing their content. All I can find Online are "previews" of their content. Here is the link to the preview. Unfortunately the entire article costs $32 in .pdf format!
h t t p : / / w w w . sciencedirect . com / science / article / pii / S0960076001001261 (without spaces)

There are TONS of articles with studies done that people on this post who cared about FACT like you EASYEJL would benefit from. Are you in to Biochem? What is your area of study?

 

[Kimber.45]

This is a small study done that shows how type I AI's can be used right after type II or in case of failure - so obviously, the same would apply to males:

h t t p : / / 171 . 66 . 121 . 246 / content / 18 / 11 / 2234 . short (without spaces)

 

[Kimber.45]

Thank you for your info about Prohormones (my alpha one cycle) - I take it you are very experienced with PH too?

 

[Kimber.45]

Therefore... I see no reason to use a type II AI during PCT - especially since harsh PH's can wreak "havoc" on your lipids already - Type I AIs have no bearing on your lipid profile. ( h t t p : // jco . ascopubs . org / content / 23 / 22 / 5126 . short ) - once again, no spaces

Need anymore sourcing or info EASY, or is that what you were looking for?

 

[Kimber.45]

I guess my conclusion of what to take for ON CYCLE and PCT is the exact opposite that of CoorsLight126

 

[BCH13]

Good choice switching to the exemestane - a-dex should never be used with Nolva for PCT - I would only use a-dex while ON cycle to control bloat. Since type II AI's "compete" that means Nolva will reduce the blood plasma levels of Arimidex. So you are thowing your money down the drain using A-dex, as Nolva significantly reduces its effectiveness.

But I switched to exemestane mid cycle (2 days ago)... I'm about 7 weeks in to my 12 week 500mg/week cycle. Should I be staying with a-dex through the end of my cycle, and switch to the aromasin at the start of my PCT?

I guess my conclusion of what to take for ON CYCLE and PCT is the exact opposite that of CoorsLight126

So, you are saying I should continue running a-dex until I begin my PCT of Nolva/Clomid, 2 weeks after my last pin? At this time, I would switch to aromasin?

While I'm at it, I might as well throw my PCT out there for thoughts/suggestions...

2 weeks after last pin
Week 1/2/3/4
Nolva: 20/20/20/20
Clomid: 50/50/50/25
Clenbuterol: (Day) 20mcg(1)/40(2)/60(3)/80(4)/100(5-28) -> as long as I don't experience sides, I'll up 20mcg/day to 100mcg (maybe 120mcg), and run it for remainder of 4 weeks
Keto: (Day) 1mg(13-28) -> not sure about the dose for keto; I figured I'll start with 1mg, and go from there. any suggestions, much appreciated.
NOW Trib 1,000: 3,000mg/day -> is this a good dose; incr/decr?
Vit C (Cortisol control): 3g morning, 2g PWO


Flames welcome. I've read many contradictory PCT's over the last few months (I'm still amazed at how many well educated, experienced users can have such opposing thoughts), but the above is what I've decided to go with (running both Nolva and Clomid).

 

[EasyEJL]

Probably should just save the arimidex for pre show if you compete, or an emergency. Aromasin is far better the whole way around.

 

[BCH13]

Probably should just save the arimidex for pre show if you compete, or an emergency.

Pre show/emergency because of it's strength? What about in lower doses?

Aromasin is far better the whole way around.

I'm not questioning you, but can you please elaborate?


Thanks for the help!

 

[EasyEJL]

Preshow because it seems to help dry you out better. Emergency I meant more or less running low or being out of aromasin, but needing an AI.

The 2 major reasons aromasin is better all around is there is much less negative effect on your cholesterol levels, and igf isn't lowered (but is with arimidex)

 

[BCH13]

Preshow because it seems to help dry you out better. Emergency I meant more or less running low or being out of aromasin, but needing an AI.

The 2 major reasons aromasin is better all around is there is much less negative effect on your cholesterol levels, and igf isn't lowered (but is with arimidex)

Alright, thanks man. Would you suggest running it straight through my PCT then?

 

[EasyEJL]

If you were planning on an AI the whole time then yes. There are soooo many different pct strategies.

 

[BCH13]

If you were planning on an AI the whole time then yes. There are soooo many different pct strategies.

K k, I was. Thanks.

Thoughts/suggestions on the PCT below?

2 weeks after last pin
Week 1/2/3/4
Nolva: 20/20/20/20
Clomid: 50/50/50/25
Clenbuterol: (Day) 20mcg(1)/40(2)/60(3)/80(4)/100(5-28) -> as long as I don't experience sides, I'll up 20mcg/day to 100mcg (maybe 120mcg), and run it for remainder of 4 weeks
Keto: (Day) 1mg(13-28) -> not sure about the dose for keto; I figured I'll start with 1mg, and go from there. Anyone have experience with keto?
NOW Trib 1,000: 3,000mg/day -> is this a good dose; incr/decr?
Vit C (Cortisol control): 3g morning, 2g PWO

 

[EasyEJL]

Other than the clen/keto its fine. I'm not a fan of Clem in pct.

 

[BCH13]

Other than the clen/keto its fine. I'm not a fan of Clem in pct.

I was going to use it so I can keep my calories up during pct without gaining much bf, and for its anabolic/anti-catabolic effects. Reasons you are against it? Thanks man.

 

[EasyEJL]

Because it doesn't really have Anabolic / anticatabolic properties. Its only ever been shown to be anticatabolic in one study (rats with 3rd degree burn) and Anabolic in one using cardiac patients at a dose of 720mcg/a day reached after 26 weeks. Even then it wasn't strong effect.

 

[BCH13]

Because it doesn't really have Anabolic / anticatabolic properties. Its only ever been shown to be anticatabolic in one study (rats with 3rd degree burn) and Anabolic in one using cardiac patients at a dose of 720mcg/a day reached after 26 weeks. Even then it wasn't strong effect.

I figured that was the case. What about for maintaining caloric intake? Cons outweigh pros? I.e. high bp

 

[EasyEJL]

Yeah, overall just being careful and controlled with cals is better. Clen can suck side wise

 

[BCH13]

Yeah, overall just being careful and controlled with cals is better. Clen can suck side wise

Alright. Thanks man. Have you ran a clen cycle? Are the muscle cramps as bad as they say?

 

[EasyEJL]

The shakes and what it does to your mood are worse

 

[Kimber.45]

I am not a fan of clen... it makes me feel like someone is choking me out at night and my ears ring.... it just scares the heck out of me and isn't worth it IMO. Even when I cycled 2 weeks on / off and taped up from 20mcg to 40mcg to 60mcg... etc - It felt like my blood pressure was at dangerous levels... like I was going to have a stroke! I took benadryl instead of keto, but that wouldn't cause the high BP, so I guess everyone's body reacts different.
I take it that this is liquid clen?

 

[Kimber.45]

If it is liquid, then of course start out by taking less than 20mcg in case of dosing issues because the amount of clen is so miniscule per ml that it is entirely possible to OD. And having a pulse of 180 - 190 (or higher) for an entire day could kill you...

I had no muscle cramps by the way... and the mood thing - I felt nervous and EXTREMELY depressed... so if you cycle it... stay away from the sunshine highway bridge! lol

 

[BCH13]

I am not a fan of clen... it makes me feel like someone is choking me out at night and my ears ring.... it just scares the heck out of me and isn't worth it IMO. Even when I cycled 2 weeks on / off and taped up from 20mcg to 40mcg to 60mcg... etc - It felt like my blood pressure was at dangerous levels... like I was going to have a stroke! I took benadryl instead of keto, but that wouldn't cause the high BP, so I guess everyone's body reacts different.
I take it that this is liquid clen?

Sorry, I didn't realize I had responses to this thread (and haven't been on AM much lately; I've been really busy with work/lifting)... but my PCT is coming up... last pin is tomorrow morning.

Yes; liquid Clen.

If it is liquid, then of course start out by taking less than 20mcg in case of dosing issues because the amount of clen is so miniscule per ml that it is entirely possible to OD. And having a pulse of 180 - 190 (or higher) for an entire day could kill you...

I had no muscle cramps by the way... and the mood thing - I felt nervous and EXTREMELY depressed... so if you cycle it... stay away from the sunshine highway bridge! lol

Thanks for the advice. I actually did a test run of this a few weeks ago when I took a day off from work and my wife was working... started at 20mcg - fine; took another 20mcg - fine; and about 2 hours later, another 20mcg ... I felt the shakes a little, but nothing major. Mood was fine (not sure if this is only effected after prolonged use)... but I won't drive by the sunshine highway bridge, hahahaha. Or, I could jump off and survive like that teen who was fighting with his girlfriend? I was definitely cramping over the next few days (i.e. forearms, thumb muscle, etc.). So I can only imagine what running 2+ weeks will be like. I also have an electronic BP monitor to measure my bp and pulse to make sure they aren't too high. My first day of dosing will be on a Sunday, so I will keep an eye on it that day.

How did you take your doses? When you run 60mcg/day, do you spread it throughout? 20mcg 6:30am / 20mcg 12:30pm / 20mcg 6:30pm? Please let me know.

Thanks for the advice/replies.